Coach. Podcaster. COACHCASTER.

Health coach turned podcaster, Chase interviews industry leaders in fitness nutrition and mindset. Messages to help you live a life EVER FORWARD.

Chase Chewning, MS, ACE CHC

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Dr. Amy Shah is an allergist and immunologist at Valley ENT as well as a speaker and consultant on health and mindset. In March 2021, she published her first book, I'm So Effing Tired: A Proven Plan to Beat Burnout, Boost Your Energy and Reclaim Your Life.

Shortly after starting her wellness practice, Dr. Shah was named one of mindbodygreen's Top 100 Women In Wellness to Watch in 2015. Clinically, she was named in Phoenix Top Doctors magazine in 2017, 2018, and 2019.

We kick off the conversation with the personal experiences that led Dr. Shah to learn all she could about burnout and, later on, offer guidance to others who are suffering through it. She was inspired to do her part in changing the mainstream perception of burnout as a “badge of honor” and steer people away from the glorification of “the grind”.

Listen in as Dr. Shah goes on to discuss the hidden dangers of supplements; why cases of burnout have drastically risen over the past year; the benefits of “circadian fasting”; and how optimizing your gut health, immune health, and hormone health can supercharge your energy levels no matter your age.


Follow Dr. Shah @fastingmd

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Dr. Shah shares why she was driven to understand burnout and how it affects mental health and wellness.

  • We’ve all heard of intermittent fasting. Dr. Shah introduces a new concept, “circadian fasting”, that combines the knowledge of circadian rhythms with intermittent fasting.

  • What biomarkers should we look out for when recovering from burnout?

  • Gut health, immune health, and hormone health are central to energy. Dr. Shah explains how to optimize all three.

  • Chase and Dr. Shah describe how their nighttime routines evolved over time and how to get a good night’s sleep.

Powerful Quotes by Dr. Amy Shah

Real change in your life comes from changing your daily habits.

Giving your body food in the middle of the night is like me waking you up and asking you to do a complicated math problem in the middle of the night. You’re going to get it wrong, you’re going to be pissed that I woke you, and the next morning you’re going to feel tired. That’s how our gut bacteria feel when we eat close to bed or late at night.

We’re literally different people at different times of the day because the genes that are turned on during the morning are different from the genes that are turned on during the evening.

Gut health, immune health, and hormone health are all one.

Once you respect your own boundaries and your own time, other people start to respect them, too.


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Interview transcript

Chase: no and continuing in a way that doesn't serve us compounding stress and all these things is really now your specialty. It's kind of what you literally wrote the book about it.

Amy: Yeah. So people who are giving you care are the most burned out of them all. So it's like, how are they going to offer you solutions when they themselves can't get themselves better? Right, like

Chase: So what brought you to this conclusion? What brought you to I need to focus on burnout, and how it's actually affecting people in their health and wellness?

Amy: I mean, I think you and I both know that it's not just this past year that we've felt burnout, I think a lot

Chase: It has been a tipping point for sure.

Amy: Yeah, I think a lot of us have felt it even before well, before the pandemic and I definitely had my crisis. And I could not figure out why I was so tired all the time, why I had GI complaints, why I was feeling anxious, you know, all this stuff, nutritional stuff, bloating. And I felt so stupid, because my labs or my labs were, quote, unquote, normal. And they were like, you're fine. You know, I don't know. You're just getting older. I was a mom, like I had a new practice. And so that was, it was just chalked up to, you know, just accept it. And there's no solutions given at all, no tools, no solutions, no advice. I mean, I knew I wasn't expecting dietary advice. But I was thinking like, maybe there were some things that people can impart on me that was interesting. 

Chase: So you were hoping to find something wrong so you could fix it?

Amy: right. And I see the frustration for so many of us. And I know you're alluding to the fact that you had something similar recently.

Chase: Oh, yeah burnout, for sure.

Amy: So then at that time, I didn't know what that was. And I looked up all my symptoms, because I thought, well, you know, I get why people are frustrated, because there's no real answer. And so there was this, these things about gut health, you know, poor gut, health, leaky gut, whatever. And then there's this whole thing about adrenal fatigue and hormone imbalance. And then there's this whole thing about inflammation and so I kept thinking like, okay, maybe I'm inflamed. No, wait, maybe I have a leaky gut, no way maybe. But I realized that the way energy works is focused on health. It's actually like all interconnected, the gut health is connected to inflammation connected to hormone health, I had no idea. I mean, all these years of schooling, I was a nutrition, nutrition major in college, all these years of schooling, and I had no clue that this was all 100% connected. Inflammation is actually fatigue, like, so when you're inflamed. When we say, you know, inflammation, that's why you feel tired. That's why you're feeling burned out, because there's such a connection between the brain and the body. So when the body feels inflammation, it sends signals to your brain to say, hey, slow down something, she's sick, he's sick, something's wrong, something we can't keep on going with what we're doing and then we have our stress in our lives that are making us more inflamed, impacting our gut. So realize a hormone, the gut and the immune system are completely connected and everything we do around that has to kind of help all three. And so the whole thing about a system like, oh, your adrenals are, you know, burned out that like, that's not even, that's not what's happening. So I realized, like, okay, so then as I started to figure myself out, and it's not rocket science, like some of the things that I talked about are things that you probably intuitively knew help you, you know, how you feel when you get a good night's sleep, I just found that the science behind it, you know, that helps the gut, it helps the inflammation, it helps the hormones, but in intuitively, you knew that. So it's not everything is not like this shocking revelation, but I pared it down to the things that really, were going to make a big difference. And I experimented myself, and then I helped other people with it. And then that's why I wrote the books because, because I thought, okay, if I can pare it down to a few little changes throughout the day, like you're really busy, I'm really busy. I can't be like doing every single wellness trend that's out there a lot. It could be like a full time job, right. And it is some people's full time job. You live in LA, there's people here who literally spend their entire day in their wellness routine.

Chase: I probably spend hours a day. 

Amy: so I was trying to think of like, what's a total of one hour a day, little things that you can do to kind of like change that so that you're one lifting yourself up out of burnout, which is like the first part of it, and then choose like keeping a daily routine so that you don't get into that place again. I put a quote up the other day that said, like, real, if you really want to be burnout, you have to build self-care every day. It's not chocolate, cake massages, and you know, spa day or whatever. Like, you have to build in little parts of your day, every day to prevent the long term burnout. And in our culture right now burnout is a badge of honor, like if you're exhausted, because you're working so hard. Like, that's amazing that, you know, that's great.

Chase: it is glorified it means that you're grinding? 

Amy: Yeah, like the grind is total glorified. But people, I feel like, we can adapt, we can learn this information. Technology is moving so fast, that we have all these tools today that we didn't have 10 years ago. So couldn't we build new tools, 10 years from now that would like learn from this, maybe, you know, we don't need to be looking at screens and doing work, you know, all the way until midnight or 10pm every night, maybe we can change our culture a little bit so that all these things don't emit so much blue light. Because like at night, not only are we not supposed to see blue light, our body's also more sensitive to it because it's like it's sensing whether it should stay up or not. 

Chase: should I stay vigilant or not? Is there a threat? Or is there a reason we need to be up? 

Amy: exactly. And then people who are worried about aging. So if you think about skin, I found this to be fascinating. Skin has a circadian rhythm to like a body clock and so it knows that during the day is probably when you're getting the most sunlight and blue light. So it has a lot of defenses up against aging and discoloration wrinkles. 

Chase: I read this in Matthew Walker's book “Why we Sleep” it has this concept of like all the photoreceptors that our skin actually has, just in the rods and the cones in our eyes. 

Amy: yeah and then so they are really turning like down off the genes the protective genes at night and so when you are seeing a ton of blue light, or your you know, expose to stressors for your skin, you're going to age faster, you're going to get more wrinkles, you're gonna so it's not just about you know, feeling tired. It's about aging in general that you can really change by changing our habits. So I think for me, it was eye opening and I felt like you know, there's so many amazing people in the world who could make changes or make technology or do things that can help us through this

Chase: shout out. Where's Elon Musk? Can we focus on Earth a little bit more? I love space travel. But we got a lot of problems right here.

Amy: yeah, here at home, inside of ourselves. So that was something that I thought was important to share and clarify for people because I think we hear so much information, that it's hard to know what's real, what's not. So I kind of parsed it out. For us to say, Okay, this is where it matters. Let's concentrate on these things. And then, you know, if you have extra time, you can do all this other stuff, right? 

Chase: yeah because we can do all things and I've been guilty of trying to do them all as well. And I would even say kind of in the pursuit of preventing burnout in the pursuit of taking care of yourself it almost induces stress and burnout, because it's like you learns, it's like, trying to drink water out of a fire hydrant, yeah, learn all these things that you can do to improve your health, your wellness, your sleep, your metabolism, immune system, all of these things, and then you try to do them all. And then sometimes it can, you know, work against each other, and just add more stress.

Amy: I didn't know before looking into it, that there are many supplements that actually damage your body and so when people are adding on these things to their wellness regimen, you have to remember that some things cancel each other out. Other things

Chase: decrease or increase bioavailability of nutrients.

Amy: yeah, antioxidants taken by mouth through supplements are actually not good for your body.

Chase: Really? How so? Like they cancel them out or they hurt you actually?

Amy: yeah so we have a very complicated antioxidant balance in our bodies, right? So when you're adding things, it can throw off that balance. You can get more oxidative damage by adding antioxidants on, you know what I mean? It's so wild, like, whenever, when I read those studies, and you know, there's so much controversy about vitamin A and vitamin E, both of which were shown in studies to be dangerous when taken.

Chase: individually, or in excess?

Amy: vitamins A, D, E, and k are fat soluble and so if you take too much, you will store it in your body, and it can be toxic. And so after I read all that I really became a big minimalist on supplements. And I realized, like, these wellness routines that people talk about that have, like, hundreds or like hand fulls.

Chase: you don't want to look at my pantry. I mean, I've got a repertoire of things that I yeah, I choose and select and based on kind of over the years of a lot of self-experimentation. It's like, I need this, and I want that. 

Amy: I have a few that I experiment with but I also remember that these studies are really powerful. And we don't even know that half of it, because most people aren’t doing studies on supplements and we don't really know what happens if you mix all of these things together. And what we do know is our body's super smart, and if it's food based, it's able to kind of parse things out a lot better. So antioxidants from fruit, for example, are really great for you. But if you separate that into a supplement, it can be dangerous.

Chase: I've read so many things on that topic of how in Whole Foods, the way that things are even like just the amylase that your body produces in your mouth to just trigger the initial breakdown of certain starches and sugars and things based on what you see and what is known and that it has had before, like, that's the start of the metabolism. And so then it like from the entry point, based on what it is it is going to have a relation and it's going to have a lot more like basically just things ready to go, that we don't even fully know about, like the way that we absorb things and the way that certain phytochemicals and nutrients interact. There's so many things we can't even tap into to understand all of them yet.

Amy: We don't we don't. And we don't understand how our gut bacteria sort of got back to our urine, the army, right? So the military. So the gut bacteria is literally our military and it determines so much of who passes through, who are we going to attack? What are we going to extract from this

Chase: great analogy?

Amy: And they communicate with our immune system at all times. You know, hey, I need help, come over and help me. And so what's that complex interaction is something we don't understand. That's why people say, Oh, I can't do gluten, but nothing comes up on testing or I can't eat dairy, but nothing comes up on testing. It's because there's such a complex interaction between our gut bacteria and our immune system that we can't understand yet. There's no test for it. And it can change. Because we know that gut bacteria as it changes, it may be tolerating new foods, right? Most, a lot of people will say, they have all these food intolerances, and then once they kind of fix their gut, so that means replace some of that army they will be able to extract the nutrients that they need and not have such a bad reaction to them. So that's the basis of actually my book, the basis of the book is to understand, hey, this army is in constant communication with your own immune system, and your brain and the hormones and so you really want to keep that group intact.

Chase: as like a primary focus? 

Amy: yeah and that's, that's how you're going to get more energy and get out of burnout as on a personal level. Now, burnout is, there's so much brain burnout too you know,

Chase: yeah, I would love if you could, can you kind of really define burnout? What is it from the medical perspective in terms of how it shows up possibly, things people can be on the lookout for? What it looks like, what it feels like?

Amy: Well, burnout is a controversial term, because there's no medical diagnosis, per se,

Chase: you're not like, alright, yeah, burnout. Take two of these. 

Amy: exactly, exactly. It's I mean, fatigue is fatigue is an actual medical diagnosis, there is testing that you would do to rule out medical causes of fatigue, thyroid, B 12, vitamin D, and anyone who is suffering from burnout or fatigue should definitely undergo a battery of tests to make sure that there's not an obvious Oh, it's your iron. You know, it's your it's your B 12 level, like a lot of people who are plant based they deplete their B. and vitamin D, as you know, so much so many of us are low vitamin D,

Chase: it is instrumental in so many things in the body,

Amy: right. So fatigue is a diagnosis and burnouts, main symptom, the prominent symptom is fatigue, but its constant fatigue, 

Chase: it's an inexplicable fatigue 

Amy: exactly, that doesn't go away with a good night's sleep, it is the feeling of depletion. It's a loss of motivation. So a lot of people who feel burnout won't be able to do a good job at work, because they feel not only tired, but almost like the loss of motivation, apprehensive, and a change in mood. And there's a few, you know, there's a few different definitions of burnout, but in general, those are and then there's a whole host of medical symptoms that people will get often, for example, you'll be tired but wired at night.

Chase: Yeah, the mind is just constantly going, going, going. All the things you didn't do.

Amy: Exactly, so tired, but wired, so you get a very sleepless night of rest or don't sleep well. And then you have often GI complaints because our gut is so connected to our mind and so when you were in this fight or flight mode, and you're feeling at the end of that road kind of depleted, you will often have GI complaints, so people will often complain of like constipation, or bloating, or just some GI distress,

Chase: irritability, or general, irritability,

Amy: reflux disease. So that's often a part of burnout as well. So burnout is real, but has a variable definition. But most people will say that symptoms of burnout have risen over the years. In fact, this last year, there's a 33% rise in people who were saying that and before that it was about 69% of women and 50% of men said that they reported feelings of stress, burnout or fatigue beyond the norm. And, you know, there is a differential between women and men. And this seems to be both societal and biological. And this year, obviously, a lot of the stressors came into focus. And what I think happened this year is that the mistakes we make and society just became more blatantly obvious. You know, some, some of the things I talked about in the book is like disruptive circadian rhythm; so that internal clock that we have in our brain and each one of our cells, we need to be listening to that and when we were indoors all the time for, you know, a good part of this year, not seeing natural light, maybe getting a ton of blue light because everybody's like stuck to their TVs 

Chase: reduced physical activity. Gyms were shut down. 

Amy: gyms were shut down. We were getting no social interactions. And we had no release, right? And then you couldn't sleep at night because you were stressed. And a lot of people were triggered by what's going on? So there are these unconscious pathways that are connected to our HPA axis or our HPA axis is our stress pathway. Hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis and there's a part of our brain that's, that gets programmed from when we're children to respond to stress. That's why some people who have had a lot of trauma in their life, really had a hard time during the pandemic, because you know, these trauma pathways trigger that cortisol, more so than maybe others.

Chase: I'm so glad you said that right there. And sorry to cut you off, right. That's such an important point. And I'll say personally, that's been an irreplaceable part of my wellness journey. But also for people to realize right now, when they're listening and hearing this, like the things we naturally gravitate towards, or the route that we think we're supposed to take, or maybe even our doctors or providers tell us to take can be beneficial. But there's a lot more going on in the background, and the conscious and the subconscious and just that initial framework and system really, that was wired and built years and years and years decades ago, even for some people say don't discredit that I'm so glad you brought that up.

Amy: I mean, the trauma pathways, not only build our thoughts, but also what we look for, for comfort.

Chase: Exactly. How we cope. Or don’t. 

Amy: Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, what are we reaching for to cope? Because there are a lot of people who need comforting, but they don't know how to get it and so they reach for the easiest tools that they can find to cope and often that's negative coping. So you know, drinking has gone up, you know, usage if there's some food intake can be comforting in a negative way for people like they go back to their you know, what releases dopamine and serotonin 

Chase: they go for the chips or they go for the Oreos? Oh, that's just me. I am a sucker for Oreos. I don't keep them in the house. I'll eat a whole sleeve and won’t even think about it. 

Amy: that is so funny. I don't think I've eaten Oreos, I am a salty person. So definitely during the pandemic, I hadn't eaten, you know, regular chips. I mean, tortilla chips I've had, you know, at a restaurant or whatever. But I would never buy bags of chips and salsa or like potato chips. But I got into all that stuff because I think it was just like we're saying it's a stress. Everybody has subconscious pathways. You know, we all have some, I mean, when you drive to work every day, that's your subconscious pathway driving you because you're thinking about something else. So we have so many of those, and those get triggered. And so what I was trying to do in the book is say, one recognizes that because sometimes you just fall into those habits, and you repeat it every single day. And they're negative habits. And it's just because you've done it since you were a kid or you know, that comforted you as a kid doesn't mean that that's a good thing. 

Chase: or they're seemingly positive. Right? But they're just not leading you to that same positive outcome.

Amy: Yes and then changing I think, real change in your life comes from changing your daily habits, changing little things, understanding the science of why you're doing what you're doing. I think so many people, myself included, think like you too when you start to improve your personal health. Your mental health starts to improve, and you start to see things that are

Chase: a little bit more of the veil lift; what you're doing, what you're not doing. The response that you get.

Amy: I was running like a million miles per hour every single day and I had this huge car accident, which is how I start the book. Because what happened is, I was burned out. I knew I was burned out, but I couldn't stop, right.

Chase: said every person that has been through burnout ever.

Amy: yeah, I was like in the cycle and I had so many things going on and I had a new practice. I had these little kids that were depending on me to pick them up all this you know, do all these things. I had my boards coming up because I had two board certifications. So you have to like certify for both and I was just running on empty and I thought just like we were talking about before that I wasn't trying hard enough if I got enough sleep because if you're sleeping that means you're like not living or not doing a good job, right? And I thought that I didn't have time to do a real workout or something I really wanted to do, I had to do something really quick and intense.

Chase: I am sure no one listening has had any of these justifications running through their head, never.

Amy: right and then you give yourself a lot of guilt for doing anything for yourself, because you want to be working all the time. And so I knew there was something very wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And I didn't know what to do. Because I didn't have any tools, I didn't have the knowledge of like, what I should be doing. And so one day, my partners asked if we could do a last minute meeting at five after clinic and I, and I wanted to say no, but I felt like I had to say yes, and I didn't have the guts to explain, like, I have to go pick up my kids like they're going to

Chase: Maybe you didn't have the gut health.

Amy: Right. Exactly. And I and I didn't have the clarity to know like that I should speak up. Because I thought it would be judging me like I was new, you know. So anyways, I thought, okay, I'm just gonna not like going through the meeting. I just have to get there before six because I think they were getting out at 530. And I thought, okay, if I can get there by six, the center closed at six. So I'd be okay. So we get done. You know, later than I thought really close to six. And I literally ran out of there. And ran to the car. I was rushing to go pick them up. And you know, those little small decisions you make, like, should I make that like and I think about it now, it's so clear in my mind that I was rushing. And I wasn't like

Chase: It's a great example of how even the most seemingly obvious things that of course we could answer in our sleep when under stress it just kind of makes us like, baby deer just stuck in the headlights.

Amy: Totally. So I was making a left, right, what as I was getting to the center, and that I got into a car accident with an oncoming car, who and literally I saw, you know, I was literally spinning. I thought I was spinning for minutes, but I guess it was like seconds because it was a big intersection. And the only thing I remember is I've never seen all the airbags inflate the entire car. Like there were back seat ones front seat ones.

Chase: your car just turned into an airbag? 

Amy: literally, it was an airbag. So it activated all of that stuff. And then all I remember is I got out of the car, and I was bloody there's, you know, the whole windshield was shattered. And I remember thinking like, I don't care, I need to run and go to that center because it's like six and, you know, like, I have to be there and I have to take the kids and they say no you can't go anywhere you are in this huge accident.

Chase: You're bleeding like you need to stay.

Amy: I could barely walk. Anyways, so I had I was on you know, I couldn't do anything for the next week. And it really opened my eyes. I was like, Okay, I need to, I need to make some big changes here. There's no reason for me to feel like I didn't feel almost like a worse version of myself that I didn't want to be like I was cranky, like a virgin. So then that week really helped me kind of refocus. And I started to look into a lot of more of this stuff. And that's where my journey started. And as I started to figure it out myself, I made a ton of mistakes. But as I started to figure it out myself, this is why I mentioned before the wellness, like the energy trifecta, I realized, oh, our gut health is related to our energy, but then our immune health is also related to our energy, and so is our hormone health and if you keep all three systems happy, you will feel good on daily basis. So I learned that and I started to implement things to help all three things every day. And then over time, I refined it, then I tried it on other people

Chase: sounded like you did a great little self-assessment. And paid attention to the variables of what was working what was not.

Amy: and I made a ton of mistakes, because just like a lot of people out there I was tempted by all the shiny objects, oh, take this for adrenal fatigue or, you know, try this diet for and I think that it's kind of like it kind of like steered me the wrong direction. But then when I came back, I was like, Okay, I realized there's no real shortcut to doing the work but here are like some of the things that helped in circadian rhythm. 

Chase: what is the work please? 

Amy: The work is fixing, you know, that gut, that hormone system and the inflammation system, which sounds complicated, but it's literally the same few things like one was living with their circadian rhythms a little bit better. So our society as its belt is completely off from circadian rhythms, like we are programmed to sleep at night and not eat right before bed. And so when I got interested in the science of intermittent fasting, it made so much sense to me. I'm like, yeah, of course, you're not supposed to be eating late at night, and probably, you know, 1000s of years ago, you didn't wake up and have a pop tart, like, as soon as rolled out of bed, right, 

Chase: like, roll out of the cave, and yeah, go find some scraps.

Amy: So it made sense to me that there, there should be a little bit of a break. And then I learned, oh, got health improves from that those bacteria need a break to like, it's I mean, giving your body food in the middle of the night is like waking you up and asking you to do a complicated math problem in the middle of the middle of the night,

Chase: Even in the middle of the night, or you are what about just like late night like a couple hours before bed?

Amy: Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. That's, the feeling is the same as waking you up in the middle of the night and asking you to do a complicated math problem, you're going to get it wrong, you're going to be pissed that you were woken up, and then the next morning, you're going to feel tired from being woken up at night. And that's how our gut bacteria feel when we eat kind of close to bed or late at night. And so I understood, okay, that makes sense that’s what intermittent fasting can help. But the way I talked about in the book is circadian fasting.

Chase: circadian fasting. I've never heard that. 

Amy: that's a new concept that basically combines the knowledge of circadian rhythms with intermittent fasting. Because

Chase: what does it look like? 

Amy: Yeah, so the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2017 was on circadian rhythm science and then in 2019, it was on intermittent fasting science, because these are two novel concepts. I mean, they've been around for 1000s of years, but it's like novel

Chase: finally kind of paying attention to them, right. 

Amy: So what we realize is, hey, 80%, up to 80% of our genes work on a circadian pattern. So literally, we're different people at different times of the day, because the genes that are turned on us during the morning are different from the genes that are because, of course, the morning our body wants to focus, our body wants to metabolize. And so the genes for metabolism, focus, energy, or like high, and then two to three hours before bed when our melatonin hits the system it starts the genes that repair and renew. So when we're doing all these things off, eating off schedule, seeing a lot of blue light, not seeing daylight during the day, we're literally shortchanging our repair renewal processes. 

Chase: I actually caught myself on that recently today, I forced myself to take a break, my office downstairs, faces the other side of the house here, I get no sunlight. And I was telling you earlier, I've been kind of going through some burnout. And I've been doing a lot of things to work on that and repair it. And one thing came to mind that came to light today, pun intended. I haven't been getting regular daily sunlight. And it sounds so bad. I live in Southern California where it's sunny all the time. So today, I took about a 25 minute 30 minute break, went up to the roof, took my shirt off, had some shorts on, just got some sunlight, and listened to an audio book. And so it gave me kind of twofold from burnout. It helped me introduce break in a pause and de stress. And it gave me simple, I guess, threefold the sunlight and then I finally got to catch up on an audiobook. So yeah, some kind of like pleasurable thing.

Amy: That is one of the biggest things I actually say is a strategy. So you figured it out yourself. So basically, the multitasking of taking a break, getting the sunlight, and doing some self-reflection is the multitasking way to really get out of burnout. One of the tricks and what I recommend is to do in the morning, like before 10am if you can

Chase: I always strive for my morning routine. Strive for about 10 at least 10 minutes of sunlight first morning, so I get that probably about three to four days a week. I'd say about four days a week.

Amy: And you know, people who don't live in Southern California or Scottsdale or somewhere where their sun is. There are these lamps on Amazon that have 10,000 Lux of light. And remember, you can't be looking through a window, you have to roll down your window, you have to be outside. Windows block out a ton of those locks of light that you need to activate in your red Now that goes straight to your brain and reset all of the circadian pathways. So you really want to be doing some sunlight during the day. A circadian fast overnight. So what that particularly looks like is stop eating two to three hours before bed. So if you were on perfect circadian rhythms, you might stop around seven or eight. 

Chase: that might be difficult my wife is Persian and they like late nights

Amy: I totally get it. Oh, you don't even know I went to India, not this December but 2019 the first time I'd been in 20 years or whatever and I learned that their culture, the way they eat is completely against circadian rhythm. But I convinced some of them to try this. So basically, whatever bedtime is for you work two to three hours before that.

Chase: I like that. Whatever bedtime is for you. So this is just another example for the listeners that you know, this isn't a here's one strategy that you have to follow. But here's a strategy that you can implement into your life.

Amy: Exactly. Yeah. And you know, shift workers of course. Yeah, it's tricky. Yeah, they can't do that. Stop doing you know, your first responder work you can't. So one strategy I tell shift workers like it doesn't matter when you're sleeping but when you are sleeping to stop eating two to three hours before bed, and then you obviously don't eat overnight. And in the morning, you may not want to eat first thing; maybe you go into a fasted workout, get some sunlight, do your morning routine, do some mindfulness or self-care and then you break your fast. So the magic of fasted workouts is that there was a study that came out in the New England Journal of Medicine that detailed the benefits of intermittent fasting and one of them is the metabolic switch. So we preferentially use carbohydrates as fuel and most of us are always just sugar burners unless you're on a Keto plan. But overnight, you deplete your sugar because your brain is still working on repair, renewal processes, whatever. And in the morning, often, you may have some sugar leftover, or your liver had some stored glycogen leftover. So you could do a workout and deplete that glycogen. And once you start to really get low on glycogen, our body makes this cool switch. And that switch to using, you know fatty acids as fuel seems to be the magic switch. And that seems to be what turns on all the beneficial aspects of intermittent fasting. We don't know when that switch happens. And it happens at different times for different people. So if you ate your carb loaded last night, probably not going to make that switch for a few hours, but many hours after your carb load. But if you're someone who keeps a pretty low or a healthy level of carbs and then you fasted from two to three hours before bed, and you get up and you do a fasted workout, you're often going to be in that switch zone, and that is the magic. And so what I say is like, hey, you don't have to be fasting for days. And, you know, even this can happen at 14-15-16 hours and so you're kind of getting all of the benefits of both circadian rhythms and intermittent fasting in one overnight fast. So that's another strategy because there's lots of anti-inflammation that happens when you sync to circadian rhythms and you intermittent fast and remember, inflammation is fatigue and burnout. So if you're doing things that are anti-inflammatory, you're automatically curing that and that's the connection when people are like, wait, what's a food diet? You know, burn out? So you're reducing your inflammation and you're feeling less tired. So that's a second strategy is a circadian fast, the fastest workout, sunlight in the morning self-reflection; self-reflection more because you want to activate your parasympathetic system, your vagus nerve. So a lot of us live in that fight or flight, you know, response and we never counteract it with being parasympathetic.

Chase: You got to have the Yin to the Yang. 

Amy: Exactly. Doesn't have to be one to one. That was what I realized from the get interesting. It doesn't have to be like, okay, six hours I was stressed like now next hours, I should not it’s not like that. You just need brief periods of being parasympathetic.

Chase: That's been a big realization as of late for me is that to come back to homeostasis at this level to come back to just feeling your sense of normalcy. It actually doesn't take a whole, whole lot. Yeah, even just introducing a few deep national breaths, out to the nostrils. I recently wrapped up James Nestor’s “breath”. The power of activating the parasympathetic nervous system through just selective actual breathing is incredible. So that's often another lie I think we tell ourselves in the burnout is that I don't have the time to go do all these spas and relaxation or meditations like it actually can compound with just a few deep breaths, few small practices every day

Amy: 100%. That's exactly what I said in the book. I said, you just need two minutes a day, one minute in the morning, one minute in the evening to do that counteract a parasympathetic exactly what you said, breath work, it can be humming

Chase:  we'll take a two minute break now for everybody to join together. 

Amy: Yeah, I know, I've seen that before, where people like to do it together. It's really easy. And you can do it. And it makes such a huge difference it does. And then, you know, and then one of the other things I talk about is really taking a little stock of where your energy is going. So I think a lot of burnout is also thought processes, like who is taking your energy? Who are you giving your energy freely to? And how can you edit your life so that you're eating the foods, doing the things and hanging out with the people who are bringing you joy and energy? And how can you block yourself from the people who are constantly taking it away?

Chase: That's a huge point. Burnout. It sounds ironic. I'm burnt out of energy and burnt out of motivation. I'm depleted. But you're saying it's actually there are things there are people a thing, a person that is just constantly taking the energy?

Amy: And often it's like a colleague, or someone you see often a friend or a family member. And what I realized if you really take note of what it is that is repeating your energy, and what it is that is constantly depleting your energy, you get a lot more clarity. And for me, I realized I was doing things on a daily basis that were constantly depleting me and I was hanging out or interacting with people that were constantly draining me. And so I really started to edit my life, I started to say, I'm too busy to hang out or talk or engage with the drainer. Then I purposely started to do activities out which were like to fill your cup. Yeah, like, you know, the one minute twice a day it was great in the beginning when I was just getting out of burnout. But then I realized, wow, this whole nature thing is like, really amazing. And I love how I feel. I feel really good after I spend some time outside. And there's a study that came out that said 120 minutes in nature is like really what you need a week to get optimal health. Right? So I was thinking about it. And I like calculated. I was like, okay, 120 minutes, not so hard. Two hours a week. And you space it out through the whole week. And so I started to add in those things. And one of the biggest things I did, which you I'm curious to see what your thoughts are, okay, I used to do these really heavy, intense workouts, and I would skimp on sleep, I'd wake up at five. And I do these, like CrossFit type workouts. And what I realized after doing my research is that I was actually contributing to the problem. I was doing too many hormetic stressors, too much of a stress load on me, because those work, those kinds of stressors are supposed to be intermittent and heavy, not constant and not taking, not after you've had a bad night of sleep. So of course, I wasn't seeing results because I was throwing cortisol in my system after the workout.

Chase: throwing salt in the wound.

Amy: Exactly. So I changed a few more. I did a little more yoga. I did a lot and I did this yoga that was super athletic. Like I you know, I think a lot of people think oh, like, I'm never going to do yoga. I never did. I hated yoga. But I picked one that was very athletic. It was all about gymnastics and balancing. And so it kind of, you know that type A personality kind of can come through so well. And then I really toned down on the CrossFit type stuff, because at that time, that was like the big trend and I would wake up super early to do that. But I realized it was just short changing myself and you know all the other things that was happening because I was stressed at work, then I would be stressed at home that I was skimp on my sleep and then I would go to the stressful workout and then I'd expect to see results. 

Chase: which is where so many people go I know I've heard it. I've heard it in my coaching practice before and I damn sure hear from people now. It's like, I'm so tired. I'm so stressed. Let me just go. Let me just go move some bunch of weights, which can be great. Like it's good you time. And honestly, it's something that I love as well. But when you really, really think about it, like what are you doing? You're overloading your system. Again, you're taxing your system systems in a way that now like, it's your choice, all these other things may just be happening because the life around you, you may have some control over things. Maybe not. But then you take all that. And your body finally gets some you time. And what do you do? Do you go beat it up again?

Amy: You know about Blue Zones? Right?

Chase: Yeah. Dave?

Amy: Yeah. Dan Buettner. So if you look at the centenarians around the world, they're not going to CrossFit or like a high intensity gym.

Chase: They're walking and drinking wine with their best friend. That's what they're doing. 

Amy: so there's this exercise called NEAT exercise, non-exercise activity, thermogenesis, that's super important. And so even if you've done your workout for the day, you really need to do more NEAT exercise. So it's like walking from your car to you know,

Chase: people vastly under estimating the power of walking. It's profound.

Amy: When I, the things that I recommend is when you're really burned out, you really want to pull back on this intensity, and the type of exercise that stresses you out, and you usually know where you are everybody's different, right? Somewhat stressful to you maybe, you know, fine for me, or vice versa. So pull back and maybe do a little more walking, a little more nature time, a little more mindfulness, whatever, before you kind of add it back in and just like you said, our bodies are so resilient. Just two weeks absolutely no pulling back a little bit, you're gonna feel like a million bucks, good sleep, pull back your workout, start getting nature time, start eating better. And your bacteria actually in your gut can replace itself in three days, you can have a whole different, new you.

Chase: Yeah, I was gonna say what are some of the medical medically oriented positive effects of when we're on the comeback from this burnout? What can we actually expect in terms of biomarkers in terms of you know, anything?

Amy: So there's a biomarker for inflammation called CRP, C reactive protein, and high sensitivity of c reactive protein is a marker of inflammation in our body. And you can look at homocysteine levels that are also a marker. There's ferritin, which is also a marker of inflammation. Now, these are really nonspecific. And so some people will be very burned out, and they won't have high levels, and other people, because there are so many markers of inflammation. So those are just three that people can look at, in the beginning of their journey. And then like, follow them down. A lot of people will see, oh, wow, my levels, my CRP levels have gone down, or the biggest change, you can see is that your digestion is better. Your mood is better. Your sleep is better. So I have kind of check-ins in the book, because even in 2021, we still don't have a good panel that you can say, hey, Chase, you feel like crap and then there are a few things that you can check. But most, a lot of people will, you know, be quote unquote, normal. And so there's not a great blood test for all this. So one of the best things you can do is, how's your energy? How's your mood? How's your sleep? And how do you know overall well-being is like a big marker for how you're doing? So you know you're burned out? Like you're talking about your own stuff. I'd love to hear about it because I workshop it through. Sure. Most people know when they're approaching that. Sometimes you're not willing to stop and listen, but you kind of know when we're getting there because it's not something that gets better with just a one night of sleep. Something that is a little worse than a daily fatigue. So are you what are you doing for you?

Chase: I'm probably going on about I would say week three of like working through it and improving for sure. Um, for me it was showing up. It was well first of all, this is just a great marker for I get like we're saying before what the body remembers. It's like, for some reason, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it just felt like, like I felt this way before, but I don't really know what exactly I'm feeling. I just, it's like the spider sense. It was just my body's like, hey, something's something familiar here that we don't actually like. And so then, you know, thankfully now years later, I've kind of gone through processes to kind of like pay attention, biofeedback, energy levels, productivity, all these things and it just felt like it felt very begrudging. It felt like I was just showing up for the sake of showing up, I felt very kind of disconnected and unmotivated from a lot of the work that I do. And, you know, I've been doing the work that I love that I choose to do for many years. And I'm very grateful for that. But even at that point, I felt disconnected. Yeah, I felt like I

Amy: I liked that word disconnected, that's probably a nice way to talk about it.

Chase: And that's really what I've come to realize, you know, now, a couple of weeks later, it was like, I have my just unmotivated, and my lazy and retired. But it was just a disconnection. And so I kind of just took an analysis of like, what are all the things that I'm doing? And I do a lot of things like taking care of myself, my mind, body, spirit is very important to me. So if I'm doing all the things that I know that I like and work for me, what am I missing my forgetting something and or, like, let me just look at the whole. So I realized that I've just been going hard for the last like two ever since we moved to LA really the last like two, two and a half years, I have been performing at a level that a I had to just the nature of my household and the world and my type of work. And but then B it was like, I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. But the way that I go about it, it's just no longer serving me. And so it was kind of like a come to Jesus moment, I guess of, of like the physical state, but then also kind of like, I guess, the spiritual state, but just like my purpose for everything, like how I go about it, and like not wanting to just feel like I'm spinning my wheels. And so I turned off social media for a couple of days. And my wife and I took a quick little trip up to Santa Barbara, we just disconnected for like a weekend. That's kind of always my go to I go, I go to nature, once a year for my birthday actually do a bit I just go like my friends and I my wife, we get a big cabin, or we went to Jackson Hole Wyoming last year, we just get away. And so I realized that I may be needed to do that sooner this year. So I disconnected. I got back in sunlight, got back in nature, and kind of introduced a lot more sense of calm. And after that one weekend, like we're saying, I've been going for two and a half years hard. That one weekend was a very great reset for me. And it was like the hard kind of positive shock to the system that I needed. So now like two or three weeks later, I've just been taking it easier, a little bit more. I took a week off of my show. I hadn't taken a week off for the podcast in 4 years. And so after that, like it was a very great reset. And it showed me a lot of things where I was pushing too hard, where I could pull back a little bit. And just I'm still working through it for some reason. There are still just certain things I feel. It's just like a feeling. You know, I can't I can't put a biomarker on and I can't put a label on it. But my body is just like, Hey, we got some work to do.

Amy: Yeah, I think the nature thing is huge. The sleep thing is huge. And the self-reflection thing is huge. And then we didn't mention but I think food is a huge part of it. So I think what happens is,

Chase: I've been vastly under consuming calories. So that's my go to I again, I was so caught up in the work and go, go, go. I actually, for the first time in a long time I've gone back to tracking my calories. And for the first couple of days, I would just log my norm. And I would barely be getting like 1400 1600 calories. That's way too little for me. So now I'm finally back up to my norm which is like between 22 and 2400 for maintenance. But now it's no wonder Chase, you haven't been giving your body the nutrients it needs.

Amy: you know, I heard one of the other doctors saying that we're overfed, but like, you know what? 

Chase: overfed and undernourished.

Amy: Yeah, exactly. And underpowered as well because, you know, we're eating a lot of things that don't have any kind of nutrient value to us and even those of us who are, quote unquote, eating healthy. So when I went through my journey and when, after that car accident, when I really looked at my diet, and I consider myself super healthy, but I was eating very little fiber. So if, like I had, you know, my, I really didn't have much vegetables at all, and really no natural fiber in my diet, and I was thinking to myself, I Thought I was doing all these healthy things like I have like a protein bar, and then I have coffee. And then I'd have you know, all these things.

Chase: This is a double board certified medical doctor.

Amy: I was in a rush. And I would do the protein bar during work.

Chase: I was going for convenience as well, way more than I should have. Even in my mind, I was like, well, these are healthy snacks. This is a healthy protein snack, protein shake this that whatever. 

Amy: exactly. And that's when I looked into it. I was like, wow, I'm getting, I'm eating a lot of sugar that was hidden and a lot of these bars and shakes and, you know, convenient foods that are healthy.

Chase: But it also goes to the whole burnout thing, like we want something a quick fix, like, our body's gonna be craving something, right? We crave something like that.

Amy: And I had no idea that you could eat vegetables, like breakfast, lunch and dinner. I want to get like six to eight servings a day, I'm gonna have to incorporate it into like, every part of my day. So I really started to change, I realized that there's that army, that bacterial army that you're trying to grow, that's their food, they actually don't eat other food. That's, that's what they eat. And so if you're not eating enough fiber, which 95% of people are not 95? You are really shortchanging your entire health

Chase: and enough fiber being what? Are we still in like the 25 to 30 grams a day?

Amy: So most people are eating 15 or less grams, we're supposed to be in the 25 to 40 grams. But really, for optimal health, we want to be the 60 to 80 gram mark, if you look at you know, when they did hunter gatherer studies, they were probably over 100 grams a day, probably 120. And they found that the prebiotic fibers are what was feeding their bacteria, they had more bacteria, and they had more diverse bacteria. And we know that our gut, the more diverse, and the more army and the more diverse it is, the better it is. So the better we feel.

Chase: a mutual friend, Sean Stephenson actually that's one of the key things we talked about on when he came on the show a couple months ago when he was talking about his book Eat Smarter, and the fascinating old science and knew that we're finding the correlation between the diversity and your gut health, how it is directly correlated to and now we're even seeing causation to mental health, to brain fatigue to immune system, because what, like 70 plus percent of your immune system lies within that gut. When we're talking gut health, we're really talking immune health.

Amy: it is; gut health and immune health and hormone health are all one. There is even particular bacteria that they've seen, that's associated with good mood and well-being like facilitar, bacterium or whatever. And you can boost that with prebiotics, basically, fiber inulin fiber from foods. So when I learned that, I was like, wow, what that's an easy fix. I mean, that doesn't require supplements. It's not like you don't have to buy anything. Really just go to the grocery store. 

Chase: turns out mom had it right the whole time.

Amy: seriously. So and I, you know, people always put fruits and vegetables into one category. So I was eating a ton of fruit, like every day, but I didn't realize that that was not a substitute, like zero vegetables and offer it's not a good idea. In fact, it should be the opposite. You should be doing tons of vegetables. And fruit as needed.

Chase: To pick one more majority, I would go with vegetables.

Amy: 100%. Right. So then once you rebuild that gut, you start to feel better. And like you said, it's such a mental connection that you start to think better. And you know, not only is your immune system and your gut, you have a lot of serotonin in your gut, your neurotransmitters are in your gut, and they're communicating with your brain and saying, Hey, I feel better, I'm eating better. I'm less inflamed. And so things become clearer to you as well. So that's why so many people have these like epiphanies when they start because they're like, hey, I hate my job, you know, like, this relationship sucks, or like, I'm not doing what I really want to do my life or whatever it is, that becomes a little more clear. And that's really how you get out of burnout, right? Re-find your purpose, connect with people who replete you, do the daily habits that are going to give you those mini self-care and do a lot of self-reflection and really try to piece that out. And like you said, centenarians in those Blue Zones have figured out it's a you know, hanging out with your friends, community walking, nature, sleep and good food. You know, those are kind of like the basic aspects of it

Chase: My favorites are the I forget the group and I think it's Japan. The Okinawa women that just like they outlive everybody. They have a tribe together community. And they all say like good Sake. Italy it is good wine.

Amy: Yeah, exactly. So alcohol is a big part of an anti-inflammatory diet. The only thing is, is that in our culture, we take this little thing and we run with it. So if you think about what the anti-inflammatory levels are, it's three to five drinks a week for a woman. And it's like five to seven for males. Most people are doing way over that on a weekly basis. And so if you cannot control yourself around alcohol, because oh, a little bit, it's good but a lot is better than that's not the strategy for you. You have lots of other anti-inflammatory strategies. But I do think that it can be really helpful for people who are like, oh, yeah, I can incorporate three to five drinks a week for me that is easy. 

Chase: It goes back to what you're saying in the beginning, when, especially when we're facing stress and in burnout, we tend to reach for things that we may already be doing in a healthy way. But we push the envelope. You know, the coping mechanism becomes tainted a little bit.

Amy: like with coffee and what I say is that caffeine is like stealing from your energy bank. You have to pay it back. You're not, it's not free energy. And people don't like when I tell them that they're like, wait, it's not? No, you have to put that energy back through either sleep or rest or recovery. And if you don't, you will crash. And that's why so many of us overdo it on the caffeine, and then you have a super big crash in the afternoon. And that, you know, that's a sign that you need to kind of get off that caffeine.

Chase: that was another thing I did. And I've always been very conscious over the last several years I've been very conscious of not only caffeine, and like total milligrams, but my caffeine cut off time. So I actually the past  like two weeks I've realized I'd gotten a little high caffeine high for me had been, like 350 milligrams, maybe a day. Well, actually would have to two, but I know the exact dosage. I use, like a couple different specialty coffees. They're healthy coffee. Yeah, they're really good. So I actually would then decrease my servings to 250. I decreased by about 100 milligrams per day. And my caffeine cut off time was usually two o'clock. But when I really looked back, again, I was logging things. Now I could see it was actually pushing between two and three ish. So that extra hour could have been directly correlated to you know, reduce recovery, sleep quality time. So I cut back 100 milligrams. Now my max is 250. And I have a hard like, absolutely not past two o'clock. Honestly, I'm sure I'm shooting for more for noon. 

Amy: It's my, like, I can have something at lunch. And that's it. That's kind of like my cut off. I'm like, and it depends on how you metabolize caffeine. I'm a slow coffee metabolizer. So if I have something in the afternoon, I will definitely have a poor night as well. So it just, it does depend on the person, but you will know, I mean, you probably know that if you consume caffeine late in the afternoon, you're gonna feel it, you won't be able to fall asleep. The other thing I talked about is high quality sleep. So I think I severely under because of all these years of training and so much sleep loss, that I kind of lost respect for sleep, like I love sleep, but I thought, oh, I can't sleep. I'm not that's not productive. 

Chase: That's not grinding. 

Amy: Yeah. And then I realized, like, oh, all this. All the things that you want in your body, and in your mind, and your brain and your gut, happen during sleep. And so I started to really guard my sleep and clean up by sleep routine. And like you said, caffeine, it was the blue light exposure. It was the working all the way through until bedtime. It was, you know, not realizing that if you have ambient light in your room that's actually disturbing your sleep. So they did this interesting study with two groups of overweight women, because they knew that blue light has some implications on weight. They weren't sure. They had these women sleeping rooms, one with ambient light in the room, kind of like a nightlight. And then the other ones were in a blackout room. And they found a significant difference in weight loss with same calories consumed. I mean, if that's not enough for someone you know who's trying to be fit and healthy to actually make it a blackout room, or you can wear a face mask and make

Chase: I use a face mask for sure.

Amy: I totally look like a crazy person especially when I travel because it's like earplugs and the face mask because I realized that if you protect the quality of your sleep, you're just a different person the next day and you're building up that gut bacteria, you're helping your immune system, you're helping your hormones, and all of the things you want, both externally and internally are working the way that you want. And I just feel like I'm a better person, I get work done. So I started to protect my sleep. Like it was like the most important thing. And it's funny because you know, even now, I think that they say you're supposed to sleep at the same time every day. And obviously, on weekends before the pandemic, we could never do that. So I made a rule, I wouldn't go more than two, I try not to go more than two hours past my bedtime. And most nights, even on the weekends, and then you're not so hung over or like sleep hungover it feels so horrible the next day. So protecting your sleep became one of the big tenants, for me, that helped me through my burnout. And I tell people, like you'll have to sleep a little bit extra, when you're trying to get over, I'm sure you've felt this in the last couple of weeks when you've worked on it. It's not enough to sleep your usual seven hours a day.

Chase: I've been going over probably, I'd say 45 minutes to sometimes an hour and a half and I don't set alarms, I go to bed at the same time I wake up the same time that my natural rise time last month ish has been about 45 minutes to an hour and a half more than usual.

Amy: Yeah. And it's nice, because you really do need that time when you're recovering from that you need that extra time to recover. So don't feel guilty. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I have to tell you and other people like, I think that we all give ourselves so much guilt for taking a break.

Chase: yeah, that's I was gonna say that's got to be another component to this is that you try to take care of yourself. But then you feel bad about doing that. Yeah. Because you think it's creeping into all these other responsibilities. 

Amy: we feel so guilty for ever taking time for ourselves. I mean, I've had people say to me, oh, it must be nice to you know, sleep, work out now, you know, kind of implying that it was selfish or that it was must be nice all these things and what I said is that actually protects me from being able to protect me from burnout. And it helps me do more during the day and last longer, without, you know, feeling burnt out. So I think for me, I realized I'm allowed I'm, I'm giving myself permission to get sunlight every day to get a workout in every day to sleep every day to eat good food every day. That is not a luxury that is part of self-preservation. I think we've lost that in our culture, I think we kind of feel like all of these things are like, nice to haves. But it's you must have that. And you know, there are things we can do in the future. Like I said, the technology can change, we can have different barriers. So in my world, sometimes you're getting a lot of emails, tons of activating things late at night and so one of the things I've decided is I don't make any phone calls or any activating conversations or like stressful events, like two, three hours with somebody that's gonna demand more of your time and energy. I try not to do any meetings like late like, we used to do practice meetings now at like 8pm or 9pm. And I don't do that anymore, because then it's like just riling you up, and then you can't sleep, and you have the higher anxiety levels, and your body's basically getting mixed signals like, Hey, I thought it was like time to go to sleep. And like, now you're doing all this stuff that's keeping you awake

Chase: yeah, it doesn't know how to properly respond when it needs to.

Amy: Yeah, so then, I started to turn off all of my devices, I still have my phone with the blue light blocker. And but I don't respond to any like emails, I don't do any major phone calls or meetings or anything, two to three hours and that's a really nice way to block your mental space. And I really have a strong nighttime routine just as strong as my daytime routine. And these are all little sounds like a lot but literally ends up being just minutes a truly extra. That's basically how that's what I talked about in the book.

Chase: Amazing. Well, we definitely gonna have all the book information listed down in the show notes for everybody. I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and kind of getting towards the end. I have a one other question I want to ask you before I final question. So we've been talking about a lot of different ways to work through well, to understand it, to address it, to pay attention to it, how it's probably showing up in our lives. What we can do to address it and work through it. What's waiting for us on the other side of burnout, like once we actually kind of take control back of our life and reintroduce some things that get us through this burnout like what can we expect to like to get back into our life?

Amy: I think the biggest thing I noticed a change is my energy levels I had stained and high energy. I think we all want that, right, want to be able to do the things that we love, and we want to do with full energy, you will have energy like you haven't had since you were a kid. That's how I describe it to people, I think I thought, okay, getting older is also energy depleting but I didn't realize that just like muscle, you can build muscle at any age, you can actually build your gut health, your immune health, your hormone health, you can be energetic at any age. I also think it really brought out in me my purpose. And so then once you know your purpose you can draw clear boundaries, 

Chase: that is a whole other source of type of energy. 

Amy: so once you realize what you really want in life and what you're going for, then the boundaries become a little more attainable, because that you can say, Well, you know, what I'm going to not do or interact with, or I'm really going to protect this passion and build some boundaries. And I think building boundaries is so empowering, because you're saying, Hey, I love this energy, and I love what I'm doing as my life's work and once you figure out the people and the pieces, then you protect that at all costs. And that means, you know, maybe that means not doing the eight o'clock meetings ever. Maybe that means not answering everybody's text right away. Maybe that means, you know, putting no notifications on your phone, and just, you know, whatever it is, those are my boundaries. You know what I mean? Whatever it is those are mine. But make sure you have boundaries. Because once you respect your own self and your own time, people start to respect that too. There'll be like, oh, yeah, I don't call Chase after 8pm. Because I know he's not gonna pick up until the next morning. You know, like, that's, that's what I'm talking about.

Chase: Yeah, I've even had to have some moments with my own family member like, why don't you answer your phone? Why can’t I reach you? I don't turn my phone on until like, X amount of time after I wake up. I don't, I can turn it off X amount of time before I go to bed. You know, what if it's an emergency? Well,

Amy: figure it out.

Chase: thankfully, you know, do not disturb on the phones. Now, it's like, if you try to call somebody, I think three times in a row, it'll actually go through. So there are ways even in the modern world to set boundaries, but still be there for the people 

Amy: I had a strategy. Well, we stopped this strategy. But my strategy was that I had a landline but nobody knew the number except for a few key people and so I would be okay, I've disconnected from my phone. But I knew that if there was an emergency, we could use that. But now we have that do not disturb thing that you can you can do. And you can selectively deselect, you know, my kids calling?

Chase: I need some people to come through.

Amy: Yeah, exactly. So for me, putting up boundaries has been so empowering. Because once you really do realize what is repleting you and what is draining you, then you start to put up those boundaries. And then you feel so much better. Because you're like, Oh, I should have done this years ago, like I should have said, you know, I'm not going to, you know, do this thing. And be okay with it. It's not like, yeah, you don't have to be in the popular crowd, you can say whatever you want to say. And as long as not hurting someone else you're good you know,

Chase: one thing I heard in there that I love is that it can come across in people and we talked on that talks about that earlier, as well. And all the things we've been talking about of biofeedback of paying attention to what's showing up in your body and your mind, like, also look for that in people take an evaluation analysis of the people that are just energy suckers, and never energy givers. And it's a very, very hard thing to go through. I've been through it so many times. And honestly, it just turns into people coming and going out of your life. And at the end of the day, you have to recognize you have to do that, because those behaviors aren't going to go anywhere.

Amy: Yeah, no, you have to you have to take those energy suckers. If you can't take them out of your life I say just stop giving them your energy. You don't have to engage.

Chase: it doesn't have to be a harsh cut off kind of thing. 

Amy: it can be that they wouldn't even know the difference. Because they might just see you in passing now and you're just too busy to you know, maybe you're not organizing things with them. But you are reaching out to someone who is giving you energy and I think that that naturally kind of happens sometimes. But if you're deliberate about it, you really can do great things and you know energies is such a thing that if you give up off really good energy, you will attract more people with really, absolutely, yeah. And then you can kind of engage more with those people and engage less with the people who obviously don't give you good energy, and then you don't have to give energy back to them. So that's the energy tactic. 

Chase: that reminds me this tactic I would use to use a lot in practice of when people are embarking on like their health and wellness journey, especially in the beginning, a common misconception is all the things I have to give up. All the things that I can't do, that I can't eat, or the places I can't go. And that is just a mindset shift that we would work on a lot. And I still try to work on that through the content in my own life is no just focus on what you can do. Focus on the people that light you up, focus on the people that you light up, focus on the things, the practices, the modalities that just give you back something, some kind of ROI and just lean into that. And like, just follow that mentality and the things you're doing, the places you're going the people in your lives, things are eating, like you will also just wake up and realize like, wow, I'm, I'm getting it all back. Because I've been giving only to people places and things that deserve it.

Amy: it's so empowering. So that's, that's really the key is, is finding out what things can replete you and what things and people are depleting you and kind of doing an edit.

Chase: yeah, that's, that's a whole I feel like I have a whole other conversation on like the people in the community aspect. That's been that's been, especially what the whole world has been going through this last year, that detachment and lack of community for so many people has just, I mean, now we're literally feeling it a year later of having such, like, harsh lines in the sand of how often we see people when we see them where we see them. It's just been like, now we're really we were reaping what we sowed.

Chase: it's terrible. I mean, there are people who haven't seen anyone for a full year. It's so sad for our elders and children. It's, it's, it's just sad all around. And everyone, you know, can argue about, you know, what we did wrong. And what we did, we can all say that we all suffered from the disconnect that we had this year. That's why I started to really realize, oh, there's so much value in the actual energy exchange in person energy. And that we really underestimate that when we you know, this year, we weren't able to do that. We realized now what we were missing, you know,

Chase: which is why I'm so grateful you are here in person. I appreciate appreciated and enjoyed your energy and your expertise today. And so the final question I ask everybody on my show is ever forward; to live a live a life ever forward and I have like this philosophy of taking awareness, a heightened sense of attention, awareness to our fitness or nutrition or mindset, all the things that just make us and what we can fine tune and what we can keep and what we can maybe get rid of just take a step, take the step, take any step to just move forward. How do you interpret that? What does that mean to you? How can what you're doing in this whole work of burnout help us do that?

Amy: I think the whole conversation we had was really how to move yourself forward, how to move our society forward. If we understand these things, then we can build systems, we can build technology, we can build network, I mean, we can really change how we build the next, say 20 years of our lives forward by learning all this and incorporating it and making it tangible tools for people. Maybe, you know, not everyone can get natural light, but maybe they can, you know, have these light lamps and in the winter months, and maybe, you know, we emphasize nature time more on for everyone. And maybe we deemphasize working late at night or eating late at night and change our culture a little bit. So yeah, moving forward as individuals act as a collective society by doing some of these things, especially the circadian rhythm synching is something that I think that can change a lot of people's lives.

Chase: I agree. Very well said. I always tell my guests there's never a right or wrong answer. It's just, I love it right? After we have our conversation, and then you know, I share a little bit of the philosophy of my own and in the show, you know, I'm always grateful for the answer that I get. So it help. Well, where can people learn more about you? Where can they get the book? If they want to go somewhere right now connect with you where are they going?

Amy: there a few places. So on social media, I'm at fasting, MD, on Instagram. I'm at Amy Shah, MD on Twitter and Facebook. The book is that I'm so

Chase: I love the title by the way.

Amy: is my personal website.

Chase: Okay, amazing. Well, thank you so much.

Amy: Thank you so much for having me.

Previous Episodes

Apr 12, 2021

EFR 461: Perform, Adapt, Evolve - The Three Pillars of Human Optimization with Jeff Byers

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Jeff Byers is a former NFL player and the current CEO of Amp Human, which offers innovative products that help athletes push the limits on their performance, adaptation, and recovery.

With an interest in both sports and entrepreneurship from an early age, Jeff always harbored an interest in finding creative ways to push his boundaries for growth as a human. “I was always thinking about the little things I could do to get better,” he says. “I tried to use my brain to work smarter than always just work harder.”

After retiring from the NFL, Jeff worked for a few years in the finance space before joining an early-stage biotech startup in late 2015. This company had discovered a way to deliver pharmaceuticals through the skin, bypassing the GI system which often limits the body’s ability to optimally absorb vitamins and minerals taken orally.

Not long after joining the company, Jeff and one of his partners developed a broad vision for a business offering products specifically formulated to optimize human performance, a space in which they saw, at the time, a huge gap in the market.

Listen in as Jeff talks all things human performance and optimization and why he refers to it as a “broad spectrum”. He also discusses the benefits of Amp Human’s flagship product, PR Lotion, and its newly released D+ Lotion.


Follow Amp Human @amphuman

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Jeff explains how to differentiate between human performance and biohacking, and how he optimizes his cognitive abilities.

  • Routines are great for introducing discipline; but could they also be a limiting factor to evolving, adapting, and breaking past barriers with regard to human performance?

  • What does Jeff mean by “broad spectrum human performance”?

  • Jeff speaks on the relationship between mindset and human performance.

  • How do Amp Human’s products, particularly PR Lotion, help humans break their limits and achieve more?

Powerful Quotes by Jeff Byers

One of the things I learned from sports was how to make decisions, and how to make decisions fast knowing that you’re going to fail. It’s important to fail fast but how do you evaluate that and actually move forward over the long-term to really be able to create big gains over time?

Human nature is how we continue to move forward whether we are doing it willingly or not, or knowingly or not.

Our goal at Amp Human is to deliver relevant solutions using a systems-based approach to athletes who train with a purpose, or to humans who continually seek to level up.

We don’t know what the potential of a human is, and we won’t know.

We believe there are three core pillars to human performance: perform, adapt, and evolve.

How do we not just train harder, but also maximize everything around it including the mind, body, and soul?


Episode resources:

Apr 8, 2021

EFR 460: Why You Don't Need Supplements with Mike Matthews

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Mike Matthews is the Founder and CEO at Legion Athletics, Inc., a company which offers all-natural, science-based supplements, including pre-workout, post-workout, fat burners, protein powder, multivitamins, and more.

Mike is also the author of several bestselling health and fitness books, including Bigger Leaner Stronger: The Simple Science of Building the Ultimate Male Body and Thinner Leaner Stronger: The Simple Science of Building the Ultimate Female Body.

Chase and Mike do a deep dive into supplementation and how to navigate an industry that has unfortunately grown to be filled with misleading claims, half-truths, and outright lies that leave the average fitness guy or gal at a disadvantage when it comes to getting informed on what the right products for them are.

Listen in as Mike lists foundational supplements that nearly everyone would benefit from adding to their daily regimen. He shares common shady marketing tactics and gimmicks that many supplement companies use to promote subpar products.

Finally, Mike explains the secret to becoming the number one all-natural sports nutrition brand in the world and what sets Legion Athletics’ product line apart from all others.


Follow Mike @muscleforlifefitness

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Since supplements are only supplementary to your nutrition, what should people really be focusing on to get the most ROI on their training when it comes to their nutrition?

  • What supplements should be top priority for someone who is already following a healthy diet?

  • How can you know for sure if you’re really getting what it says on the label?

  • What should you be looking for in a protein powder?

  • What does “naturally sweetened and flavored” actually mean?

  • Mike explains what makes his superfood supplement, Genesis, different from all the rest.


Powerful Quotes by Mike Matthews

You don’t need supplements to do what you want to do; just so you know. Supplements are supplementary by definition. That is true of ours and anybody else’s; so, don’t believe that there is a magic pill, powder, or potion. It doesn’t exist.

If a company is using proprietary blends in any of their products, just move on. Find another company. Why use a proprietary blend? It’s just for bullshit. It’s to add a little bit of marketing pizzazz in the names.

If a company is selling a greens supplement as a replacement for, say, “22 servings of vegetables”, bullshit. Stay away from that company. They’re either ignorant, or they’re malevolent—they’re just lying.

I believe in treating people the way I want to be treated. I think that should apply in business as well, so, I try to treat consumers the way I want to be treated as a consumer.


Episode resources:

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Chris Bello is a Houston-based real estate agent and investor and the host of the Entrepreneur Motivation Podcast.

His journey from employee to entrepreneur is a familiar one to many who have been, or currently are, in his shoes. The Texas native followed his friends and family into the oil and gas industry right out of college for no other reason than that’s what everybody else in his circle did.

Right away, Chris realized that he was on the wrong path. He recalls asking himself, “What could there be for me outside of the cubicle?” He began reading books such as Rich Dad Poor Dad and The 4-Hour Workweek. Bit by bit, an inspiring new vision for the future was taking shape in his mind.

“I didn’t put all the pieces together,” Chris recalls of that time, “but the questions started being asked in my mind.”

Chris finally quit his job in 2018 to dive into the world of entrepreneurship and self-development, and hasn’t looked back since.

Listen in as Chris shares the practical steps he took to create freedom in his life, including how he set up systems and processes appropriate to his work and lifestyle, the value of the phrase “fail fast, fail often”, why you don’t have to have the “perfect” plan to start right now, and what it means to embrace your zone of genius while encouraging your team to embrace theirs.


Follow Chris @chrisbello_

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Taking control of your life isn’t just a matter of vision and goal-setting. It’s also about setting up the right systems to make your lifestyle choices sustainable. Chris shares how he did all this for himself.

  • Chris explains his process for evaluating failure to learn from mistakes and pivot when he needs to.

  • How do you stop yourself from falling into the perfectionist mindset while being able to gauge whether you’re making progress?

  • How do you make sure you have the right team in place and that you’re cultivating a supportive work environment?

Powerful Quotes by Chris Bello

Every entrepreneur is going through their own journey of mindset, from having a day job that they don’t like to reading their first few books on mindset that gives them that paradigm shift toward self-development.

I haven’t “made it”. I have way further that I want to go; but I feel so satisfied now. I’m waking up to my purpose every single day.

What you don’t do is as important as what you do do.

Systems become a byproduct of the clarity that you have for what you need to focus on.

Learning how to scale up and outsource a lot of the stuff that I didn’t like to do or that I didn’t want to do is what separated me, because I don’t feel like it has to be me doing everything.


Episode resources:

Dr. Casey Means, MD is the Co-Founder and Chief Medical Officer at Levels, a metabolic health company that provides individuals “real-time continuous glucose biofeedback coupled with machine-learning driven insights to inform personalized diet and lifestyle choices.”

Glucose, unlike other biomarkers, provides us a closed biofeedback loop which if tracked helps us make better diet and lifestyle choices on the fly. Other biomarkers, such as genetics or cholesterol, do not provide that real-time information which means we cannot track changes around them based on our nutritional and lifestyle choices on a day-to-day basis.

“The beauty of glucose,” says Dr. Means, “is that there are tools, right now, that can measure our glucose levels in real-time, at home, with a wearable sensor. Unlike these other variables, we can actually see how this biomarker is changing based on choices that we made five minutes ago.”

For several years, glucose monitors have been available as a treatment tool for diabetes. What Levels has done is take this technology to the mass consumer market to be used as a precision nutrition tool.

Listen in as Dr. Means explains how Levels translates real-time insights around your blood glucose into actionable steps that you can use to improve your metabolic health today.

Follow Dr. Casey @drcaseyskitchen

Follow Levels @levels

Follow Chase @chase_chewning

Key Highlights

  • Why did Dr. Means decide to focus on metabolic health specifically in helping people improve their diet and lifestyle choices?

  • Why should someone who is not diabetic or prediabetic be concerned about monitoring their glucose?

  • What are the “reps” we need to put into improving our metabolic fitness?

  • What are the indicators of potential blood sugar problems?

Powerful Quotes by Dr. Casey Means

Our mission is to empower people with their personal health information to help them make better daily choices around diet and lifestyle so that they can live their best life right now and enhance performance every day, and ideally ward off chronic problems down the road related to diet and lifestyle.

We can use tools like continuous glucose monitors to actually see how different foods are affecting our glucose and make smarter choices about what foods we’re choosing or how we’re even pairing foods.

Cell biology is complex and it’s about more than just food. We also need to think about the other pillars which are how we sleep, how we stress, how we’re moving, the micronutrient composition of the food in our bodies, our microbiome health, and our exposure to pollutants. All of these things feed into how our metabolic processes work.

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When you’re physically active and sweat, replacing lost sodium is essential to feel and perform your best. But tons of folks forget about sodium and drink more water when they feel dehydrated - the more common problem here is drinking too much water, not too little. Overwatering dilutes blood sodium levels, causing a dangerous condition called hyponatremia - which can lead to headaches, muscle cramps, and fatigue.

The takeaway is this: drink to thirst - and don’t forget to replace electrolytes. It’s always one of the first things I stress to a new client. Not only will this help eliminate dehydration symptoms like headaches and muscle cramps, it’s essential for keeping our brain, muscles, and organs functioning properly.

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Apr 1, 2021

EFR 457: Gamify Your Life Through The Five Core Success Habits with William Moore

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William is the founder of Moore Momentum. His story of success started in 2007 during the real estate market crash. He created a company called Doorstep Delivery- a restaurant delivery service and became the largest food delivery service in the southeast and had 19 branches. A year and a half later, Doorstep Delivery was bought for its recognizable success.

From his experience, William decided to share his knowledge of success in unity and growth and built a new company called Moore Momentum, a professional training and coaching service to help you become the best version of yourself. 

Moore Momentum's mission is to "create a movement of change that shifts the mindset of the world toward unity and growth."

In this episode, William shares five core areas of life if done properly will completely level-up your success, increase productivity, regulate the flow of energy by combining the latest in science and technology, and universal principles to gamify your life!


Follow William @5corelife

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Why are the 5 cores important?

  • Why is connecting to your why more effective than for?

  • Keep understanding, keep reading, and keep studying.

  • The role of mindset, goal setting, and accountability.

  • Why your morning routine matters.


Episode resources:

Interview transcript

Chase [06:24]

All right, lights, camera, action there we go. Will Moore welcome to Ever Forward Radio man coming from one of my favorite places in the US, Chicago and we're having a very similar weather day so while we're in good company man. Welcome.

Will [06:35]

Thank you, great to be here.

Chase [06:37]

What’s is going on the most in your world? Maybe go back just two years to like this big transition you've had in your life. What were you doing? How did you find yourself up here? What are you doing today?

Will [07:01]

I spent the last 10 years or so building a business. My story of success started in 2007 during the real estate market crash. I saw the need of food delivery service since it the market was not saturated and many people needed it. I created a company called Doorstep Delivery- a restaurant delivery service and became the largest food delivery service in the southeast and had 19 branches. A year and a half later, Doorstep Delivery was bought for its recognizable success.

Chase [10:01]

So, what's it like standing at the bottom of this tower and staring at something that doesn't exist yet, but it's clear as day in your mind? 

Will [10:21]

If you can kind of step back and sort of say, okay, what does the world need, right? People always have ideas. It’s only a matter if they make their ideas come to life or give out excuses. Your success depends if you actually do it or doubt yourself

Chase [11:05]

Not an ounce of doubt. Absolutely.

Will: [11:08]

You'll never succeed because there's so many bitch slaps. People can try to steal your business too. In the first couple of years, we weren’t very profitable. I think it’s pretty typical for new businesses. Some businesses die but fortunately, we got some momentum.

We started partnering with some bigger restaurants, like, Chili’s. Initially, we were the one’s going to restaurants asking if they want to partner with us. They would always decline or if they do accept, it took a lot of convincing. But by the end, it was kind of neat they were all kind of begging us to be partnered with them, because they saw it as profit. They were making money.

And I was like, shit, I've been working on this thing for 25 years or so this this kind of book, this personal journey of all the things that I've learned along the way.

I was suicidal when I was in college. I had a bit of a religion. I straight up was your typical fixed victim and I serendipitously was introduced to this book by a professor who I really admired at the time and he just kind of casually mentioned it in one of his lectures, and I like wrote it down and went right to the library after and luckily, they had it had they not had it, I wonder how my life would have turned out.

Chase [13:14] 

What was the book?

Will [13:15]

Butterfly Effect, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. This book made me realize that there's a different way to look at the universe to look at the world. There's these universal principles that I have not been taking advantage of. I am going to figure out all of them and I made it my life's mission to basically reinvent myself and figure out what it means to be happy. There is no short-cut elixir too.

Chase [13:48]

Three easy installments for sure. 

Will [13:49]

Right? It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. I started figuring things out over time using myself as a human science experiment- what worked, what didn't, what laws of the universe? 

I honed in on these main areas of life and these key principles. Develop habits to make me happy and get to where I wanted to be. And so, 25 years later, I did that with my career, my finances, I ended up dividing these into five different cores. That didn't come until way later I just knew like, my physical health is important. My relationships are important, my mind sets important, my emotional health is important. My career and finances are important.

And these are the five cores then I was kind of working on all of them. I got rid of my failure habits and replaced them with success habits; and so, I can keep building momentum to combine them all to form my overall happiness. 

Chase: [15:25]

Life is multifaceted. Our goals are multifaceted. Yes, when we focus on one thing, we can perform well, and we can get better at it, we can excel at it, but it is leaving a lot of other areas neglected, or it is leaving a lot of other room, leaving a lot on the table, basically a lot of room for improvement, all these other things when we become out of whack.

It all comes down to habits. Either we push ourselves closer towards the goal, or decide what is the goal that we want.  Sometimes, just to build positive momentum and figure things out along the way. 

So, when reading this book and applying some of these things, I'm curious, was it as straightforward for you as just instilling new habits? Were you realizing a lot of the habits that you had needed to go? Was it subtraction or addition? Or a little bit of the combination of both? 

Will [16:40]

It's a great question. Now, I like helping people shine a big spotlight on their lives. It wasn't until I read Atomic Habits, by James Clear that it really hit me like a ton of bricks and I'm like, wow, what I'm doing is the natural extension. 

Chase [17:24]

That one is great, I got about three copies up over here. Anytime anybody rolls through the office, they haven't read it, I give them one. It's amazing.

Will [17:30]

I mean, right? He talks about whether you're using this physical, relationships, emotional parts- how they work, connecting to your whys and why it’s important as human beings to understand that because it’s got to be a deep thing that syncs way all up in there in your body and your soul that goes.

Chase [18:29]

I always go back to the movie Inception; if anything is to stick and to be inherent to be worthwhile it has to be from our own design. 

Will [18:40]

That’s exactly right. Versus willpower, which is complete BS and doesn't work where you go- a superficial level. You haven't connected, like you said on that Inception level.

These different areas, these five cores, they cover everything. This is what life is about: these five cores, all combined to form your overall momentum, happiness, growing, and stopping your failure habits and replacing them with success habits to make sure you're becoming bigger, better, faster, stronger along the way.

It’s been a 25-year journey to figure it all out but, what I have realized is that it's these habits, but they've got to be based on these principles.

I've read 1000s of self-help books, been to seminars you name it, they all kind of have the same things in different ways and like I said, it's been my goal to use these principles. 

Will [20:52]

It fits perfectly. I need to use that same science and technology, what we know about habits, what we know about dopamine hits, why we do things, and use that to level up not just on a screen and get a shallow victory of a like or a, you know, you're playing a game and you get you know, gold coins but to level up in real life. That's what I've dedicated my life to.

Chase AD [21:18]

Hey, what's going on my friend, I want to take a quick second and pause from this interview with William Moore. First of all, just take a pause and just let it all sink in everything that Will has been talking about up to this point, just let it sink in for a second. I don't want this to be just another podcast that you listen to and have just running in the background and maybe you pick up a few things here and there but just really take a pause right now and reflect back on what you've heard so far, let it sink in.

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Alright, let's go and jump back into today's conversation with William Moore.

Chase [26:30]

I want to dive into these five core principles and there's one in particular, I want to kick off with relationships. I really think that is the most profound one. I think they're all important, right? All these other areas in our life are important, but relationships are instrumental. 

You had this kind of epiphany, right? This realization that your life needed to change. You said that you wanted to change. How did you know the next steps to take? Because that can be that can be crippling. 

Will [27:32]

I didn’t is the answer. But I made it my mission to use myself as a human science experiment and to test start testing all these things. All I knew is I needed to keep reading and I needed to keep studying, keep understanding, keep learning.

Chase [28:50]

Yeah, right. Absolutely. Man, I love your response to that well said for sure. So then let's dive into these five core areas and we've got mindset, career and finances, relationships. 

I would love to start off with first physical health and emotional health and giving back so please indulge me. Why did relationships make your top five and what do you mean by that? Why is it such a core area?

Will [29:14]

Before we get into relationships, I have to bring up mindset because mindset is the surface. Your mindset is the glue that holds the rest of the course together and getting your mind working for instead of against you, and it makes all the other cores incrementally easier to build momentum.

Chase [29:37]

So, you kind of have a hierarchy for these a little bit?

Will [29:40]

They're all equal but mindset is the one that you need to make sure. I've got strengths just like everybody else, I've got weaknesses. I'm going to figure out how to outsource and work around those weaknesses, I'm going to focus on my strengths, I'm gonna learn what I'm passionate about, I'm going to set goals and when I fail, I'm going to fail forward.

I'm going to figure out what it was that didn't work and how to pivot so that every step of the way, I'm becoming bigger, better, faster, stronger, and that ends up applying to all your areas, including relationships, because, if you can look start looking at life that way, and that doesn't happen overnight and there's techniques.

One of the habits is negative self-talk, as long as you do that continually, that's the main thing that you're filling your brain with, you're never gonna be able to get to what I just said.

And so, with relationships, it's the same thing in terms if you want to build momentum and create these relationships. It's in our nature to have these human connections and interactions and if you're not doing that, you're going to be F’d. 

In the relationship core, I actually break it into four different areas, I have your colleagues and acquaintances, people you may be just met, family, colleges and friends, and your significant other. Are you married or single? 

Chase [33:16]

I'm married. Yeah, we've been together almost eight years. 

Will [34:10]

For instance, my wife and I have these agreements, right? We come we're two different people, just like every couple is we come from different backgrounds. We're not the same. I am a man. She's a woman, we, you know, they're our brains do not work exactly the same. And we, we forget that sometimes. And we get frustrated with the other person and we make assumptions, like, why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? And that just starts to chip away at the fabric.

Whereas it's like, okay, look, here's where you're coming from. Let's make it clear. Here's where we tend to have issues, right? 

Raising our kids, we do have some disagreements but we compromise even though we don't see it exactly the same how do we meet in the middle and what's best for our sons? And that's how we're going to do it.

Chase [35:13]

Present this unified front for sure. So, mindset first, that's definitely the lens we want to look through when we're starting all of these core values, core beliefs, these pillars, if you will, for the work that you talk about.

And then kind of you started talking about the relationship aspect, whether it's a significant other family member, I would even say that, what about the one with ourselves? How do you go about working on the relationship with yourself? Because I think that's probably the most important one that takes the most amount of work. 

Will [36:02]

So that and that's that that's your mindset. I mean, it is the most important and that's why I have people start with your mindset. Your mindset is your relationship with yourself. It's how you view the world. It's your confidence, it's your attitude. It's your perspective, literally on how the world is, is those a world suck, and it's out to get you are you a fixed victim, or a growth owner?

And if you have a bad relationship with yourself, you're going to potentially build that negative momentum hurting yourself. Like you'll get overwhelmed like this is too hard, you got to do it very slowly and surely, which is what I help with.

Chase [37:11]

It is possible to become overwhelmed and even more stressed out. Our personal development, self-help and growth, as we open our minds up to the possibility of what we want and we realize that all of this is possible just takes incremental work and consistent work.

Will: [38:54]

When you start to get your mind working for you, instead of against you it reduces the friction. Maybe before you didn't have the confidence, you didn't have the foresight - but then once you start to improve your mindset it's like just like same with physical health and same with your emotional health like it's like all of a sudden, you will say: I can do that!

Here’s my goal. This is what I want to do. This is my purpose.

You can get your brains working for you, and create ways that you never saw before and how to get there right at the end. You got to set goals. I'm a huge, huge, huge goal guy.

In fact, that they don't teach that mainstream in schools is shame on you. I'm trying to I'm trying to fix the broken system and the education.

Will [40:43]

We’ve got to start teaching things like goals and emotional health and how to get along with others, and how to balance your checkbook in school.

These five core areas, these habits, so by the time you get to young adulthood, you're not suicidal.

Believe it or not, even with all this tech, and everything that's happened, we're becoming less happy as a society. The world of happiness has been on a downward trajectory. 

For many years, teen suicide, especially for girls is at an all-time high and it's gone up every single year. Social media comparing themselves so it's like, we got to use this stuff responsibly. And so that's my whole mission. That's my whole goal in life that keeps me going every single day, just like with doorstep delivery, where I said, I know this is it. This is this is this is where the world is heading. 

How do I use the same science and technology to get people addicted to leveling up? Not just on screen, but in real life.

Chase [41:49]

That’s such a great idea, man. How do we get how do we introduce that kind of gamification concept that we've seen work time and time again, for things like video games, cell phone games, social media platforms?

How do we kind of get people conditioned to want to show up and stay present the same way they do for these other things, but in a way that is going to be a positive feedback loop?

Something that is going to get them addicted to themselves really in a non-egotistical way?

Will [42:20] 

Gamifying it up. My app is going to be the first product and you're a rocket ship. And you've got these five core areas of your life are the thrusters of your engine, and to not fly off course and end up where you don't want or to crash land. You got to make sure that you're balancing these cores, you're continually building momentum in each to get off the ground, then to get to the moon then to the first planet and the next galaxy than the next solar system along the way. You're meeting aliens. You are navigating through asteroid field.

Chase [43:39]

Is this co developed with Neil deGrasse Tyson by chance?

Will [43:47]

The whole point is it's I've been working on this for the last three years this app.

I had this idea it started with I literally back when I was telling you in college when I was suicidal, one of the first books I read, talked about Benjamin Franklin's 13 virtues. 

I'm calling them habits, the things that you want to change in your life. I would write a list and forced myself writing it every day. What did I do today? Did I do this, this thing that I know that is good for me this habit that I'm working on? Or did I not? And I would put either a checkmark or an x.

Slowly but surely, that started shining this big spotlight and making me aware of the things that were really hurting me causing that negative momentum so to speak. I started becoming aware.

I've got my five cores, and within each core, I've got the habits that I'm working on and improve each day on them. 

Chase [46:14]

How much weight do you put on accountability for the ability for change to happen when it comes to our habits? 

Will [46:23]

Huge. To me, it's all about systems in life systems, systems. Like you read every success book I've ever read every successful person and I use success in quotes. By the way, because most people think success is just money and finances, power and fame; but to me, it's living a true success is live in the five-core systems of life.

These people, they've developed a system that works for them and I wanted to figure out was, how can I make kind of a universal system that works for anybody? 

Chase [48:07]

I want to dive into a couple of the key concepts you talked about here and that's emotional health and giving back. Why did you put those two together? And do you think they are kind of dependent on each other in order for us to have that that level completed here in these core values? 

Will [48:23]

The honest answer is I put those two together, they do tie together but it was more I wanted to have five cores instead of six. That is actually to be to be brutally honest five cores- to me it's simpler.

Emotional health is when you are you aware of the things that are hurting your mind every day in terms of like stress? Are you aware of the things that bring true joy and happiness to your life? Like what are your passions?

Being aware of these things and making sure that you're proactively incorporating them every single day into your life so that you're reducing the stress.

Chase [50:58]

What is maybe one habit you're working on right now that you're like, I'm making it better or maintaining it like what is one key habit you have in your level of awareness right now that is, like the one you're working on the most?

Will [51:13]

This is part of my morning routine, which by the way, morning routines are huge terms of like staying on track, things that are actually going to help burst you into the day and have you going in with a smile and that energy versus another day.

One example just of that, like I used to read the news, and I start getting sucked into politics. And I would literally I would soon as I would wake up, I would open it up. And I would be in a bad mood within two minutes. 

Chase [51:34]

You're bombarded with everybody else's stressors and worries. Might be some good news in there to but it's a wave of noise that, like you need to go into intentionally I believe, right? 

Will [51:57]

That’s exactly right. And so, I caught that. With all this awareness and holding myself accountable, I realize this news doesn't fit in with my happiness. And so, I replaced it with good, and positive news.

I have this app called Flipboard, you can even do it on your Apple news feed as well- I can select the types of articles and things that I want to see. So, wellness, personal development, video games, entertainment, like whatever you're interested in that is happy and uplifting, that's all I'll see, right?

I got 10 habits that I'm currently working on posture, one of them but the top one is shorten, simplify and make things more succinct. 

Chase [53:26]

Got to get that hook, right. Is that with a new book? Is it hooked? I forgot the guy's name. 

Will [53:30]

Hooked by Nir Eyal, great book. 

Chase [53:40]

Yeah, exactly.

Well, William, it's been great having you on the show here. I can't wait for my audience to continue to dive into what you're doing over there. The Moore Momentum, everything you're doing and the change in the impact and connecting the dots for other people so that they can find other ways other walks of life, to learn from to pull from and to instill these habits and create their own system for success.

Will [54:00]

Right on brother! I really appreciate you having me on. Thanks for letting me ramble. 

Chase [54:04] 

No worries, you're in good company. Podcasts are great for that, it’s a long format content for a reason. But I do you have one final question. I'm curious, what does that mean to you, William? How would you say you live a life ever forward? 

Will [54:04]

Well, I think our messages couldn't align better. I mean Moore Momentum. M-O-O-R-E is my last name, Momentum. That's my website. That's my brand. That’s everything I'm doing.

It's about building momentum. Every single day, like we talked earlier and your podcast about not getting complacent, not resting on your laurels, but instead saying this is where I want to be in each of my areas, taking little incremental steps every single day using what I call the equation of life, which is your belief system.

So as long as you start to change, my belief system ties to your mindset as you start to change that. And then you start to take different actions than you used to those actions, then aren't going to happen right away, but the time will do its thing. That's who you're going to become. And so, it's building a little bit of momentum every single day moving forward, as you would say, every single day. 

Chase [55:29]

I love it, man, there's never a right or wrong answer. There's just your answer. I appreciate your insight on that. 

Will [55:35]

Right on.

Chase [55:36]

If you could send somebody listening, watching right now, somewhere, where are they going? Where can they connect with you online? What's going on? 

Will [55:48]

So, I have a life evaluator quiz where you can actually see where you stand in each of these five core areas of your life.

It's like you're saying being aware of figuring it out is the first step- the quiz will help you get there.

Then on our Instagram page @5corelife. We have all sorts of fun viral videos, positive news, fun stuff where humans are doing good things exemplifying the five-core life.

I also have my own podcast and I do little interviews and there's little snippets of that.

Chase [56:55]

Amazing man, it definitely great place to get lost scrolling for a little bit for sure.

William, thank you so much. Appreciate you. 

Will [57:03]

Appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much.

Adam Lowry is an entrepreneur and one of the four co-founders of Sugarbreak, launched last September 2, 2020 as the first all-natural, complete solution to help reduce sugar consumption and promote healthy blood sugar management. Sugarbreak, which raised $3 million in seed funding, offers pills and tongue strips to reduce sugar cravings. A suite of products backed by science was the goal. The brand itself was built on three pillars: all-natural, proven, and measurability.

Sugarbreak’s marquee product is Resist, a dissolvable minty breath strip that blocks your taste buds from tasting anything sweet for about 45 minutes, curbing sugar cravings on the spot. Its key ingredient is gymnema sylvestre which makes sugar taste like “sand on your tongue”. In other words, “it interrupts your ability to enjoy sweets” by “break[ing] that connection between your brain and the reward of sugar.”

Its other two products are Stabilize, a pre-meal capsule which helps block carbs and sugars and stabilizes post-meal sugar spikes and crashes, and Reduce, which supports consistently healthy A1c and blood glucose levels.

The company was founded to support diabetics and prediabetics through a clinically-tested supplement line that supports healthy blood sugar levels. However, for the consumer who has no medical need to reduce their sugar intake and simply wants to stay healthy, Sugarbreak’s products are “a convenient way of having on-demand willpower”.

Follow Sugarbreak @takeasugarbreak

Follow Chase @chase_chewning

Key Highlights

  • What problem is Sugarbreak looking to solve, exactly?

  • Adam explains how, aside from direct consumers, Sugarbreak is also looking to create products that primary care providers and other healthcare professionals can offer to their own patients.

  • What’s on the horizon for Sugarbreak?

Powerful Quotes by Adam Lowry

Sugarbreak was founded to give people a convenient way of having on-demand willpower.

Part of what we’re doing with Sugarbreak is to try to create a relationship with consumers that is built around enablement and freedom and helps people live with whatever condition they’ve got in a way that’s more pleasant.

If we can create a little bit of freedom, whether it’s reducing sugar consumption on the front end or helping people maintain healthy blood sugar levels over time on the back end, then we’re doing something good.

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Sean Dollinger is the founder of Vancouver-based PlantX, an online one-stop shop for all things plant-based, including meal delivery. The ultimate goal of the platform “is to educate people on the benefits of a plant-based lifestyle, eliminating the barriers to entry for everyone.”

He has been involved in the ecommerce space for over two decades, and has a growing portfolio that includes more than 15 companies.

Having been overweight growing up, Sean discovered the power of eating a plant-based diet ten years prior, which helped him lose 60 pounds of bodyweight. It was a transformation that not only completely changed his body, but his mind as well. Sean was inspired to create a platform to share what he had learned over the past decade and it developed into what is today PlantX.

Sean goes on to share how he found success as a serial entrepreneur, from why he sleeps only four hours a night, to how he scaled PlantX from $6 million to $1.5 billion in a year-and-a-half, to how he spots opportunity in times of crisis.

Follow PlantX @goplantx

Follow Chase @chase_chewning

Key Highlights

  • Why did Sean decide to start a business around plant-based products and services?

  • Is a plant-based diet something that people can realistically integrate into their lifestyle?

  • Why Sean feels best sleeping for only four hours a night.

  • How do you find and capitalize on an opportunity amid crisis?

Powerful Quotes by Sean

At the end of the day, PlantX’s job is to give selection and choice. We’re not here to make that decision for individuals. We’re here to make sure everything fits into the plant-based lifestyle. We like to give people freedom of choice.

What I always remind people is to think back to why they started the business. Why did you think it was such a good idea? Why did you take that leap of faith? Why did you make that investment in yourself to do it? Then keep going. [...] At the end of the day, what you’ve taken a chance on could be exactly what you’re looking for.

I believe that if you put that positive energy out there, you work extremely hard, and your dedication is towards making the Earth a better place, I always believe that opportunities will present themselves.

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Eliot Marshall is a martial artist, business owner, podcaster, bestselling author, and a self-proclaimed “ex-UFC fighter turned motivational speaker”.

Eliot points to change as the defining characteristic of his life and career. He looks at each new day as an opportunity for growth, and believes fully that he is a better man today than he was at any other point, regardless of past successes. In fact, even with a prolific run in MMA behind him, Eliot admits that “my UFC career was literally just me trying to hide all these insecurities I have.”

Today, instead of running away from the coward within, Eliot embraces that side. He made it a point to learn all about his fear, and to coexist with that fear. He goes on to speak about how love from those he cared about the most yanked him out of the literal death spiral of negative self-talk that enslaved him early on.

Eliot explains how anybody can reverse engineer their ideal life in order to start taking steps toward it. This includes going through the three Is that you need to write down to start calibrating your mindset for growth: your I ams, your I cans, and your I wills.


Follow Eliot @firemarshall205

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


Key Highlights

  • Eliot explains how and why he used his career as a professional fighter to hide the coward inside of him.

  • How was Eliot able to surround himself with a great community of people that he could trust in his darkest hours?

  • How good can our life become just by changing our mindset?

  • Eliot may no longer be in the UFC, but he is clearly still a fighter. He shares what he is fighting for today.


Powerful Quotes by Eliot Marshall

As your coach, I don’t want to see “perfect”. I want to see the mess. I want to see you when it all falls apart. I want to see as ugly and as bad as it gets. Once I see that, we get to plug the holes. I need to see what you’re going to do when the shit really hits the fan because you can’t hide who you are when that cage door closes.

There’s a coward in all of us. If you won’t say hi to him, then he comes out during really inopportune times. He comes to say hello. But if I say hello to him every day, knowing that he’s part of me, then he can come hang out, but he doesn’t get to mess things up.

Living by your values is not easy. It’s not comfortable. It’s not fun. There’s no fun about it. But if you say who you say you are, then you do it.

I never want to equalize outcomes; but I want to equalize the opportunity for every single human being that walks on this Earth to be able to find, discover, and harness their power.


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Ashley Stahl is a counterterrorism professional turned highly sought-after career coach, TEDx speaker, Forbes blogger, podcaster, and author. In January 2021, she published her first book, You Turn: Get Unstuck, Discover Your Direction, and Design Your Dream Career.

She illustrates her approach to getting “unstuck” as traveling from one lilypad to another. The first lilypad is where most people start out: They have a dream (or at least the outline of one) but are too afraid to take the next step thanks to the myriad of what-ifs plaguing their mind.

Getting over to the second lilypad is all about creating a “river channel” by figuring out your unique gift and learning how to harness your primary skillset. It’s about acknowledging that the key to getting unstuck in your career is to not do what you love, but to do what you are.

The third and final lilypad is “a level of dharma” achieved only after consistently putting that skillset into action. Ashley explains that “when you’re vibing in the current of your gifts, what happens is, on the periphery, people start noticing where you’re talented.” When you work only where you thrive, and you own your unique gift, opportunities naturally arise and your career creates itself.

Ashley goes on to share how to get clarity on your best career fit, uncovering your identity, nipping resentment at work in the bud and finding your purpose, and the biggest myths that keep you stuck in your career.

Follow Ashley @ashleystahl

Follow Chase @chase_chewning 

Key Highlights

  • Ashley explains how to get unstuck in life by hopping from the first lilypad to the second and to the third. She addresses the many challenges that everyone will encounter on their personal journey along the way.

  • What did Ashley carry over from her previous career in intelligence into her current work as a coach?

  • Ashley gives her thoughts on identity and why the search for who you truly are can be freeing or limiting depending on how you approach it.

  • How do you address burnout and regain a sense of purpose?

Powerful Quotes by Ashley

The ultimate message of my book is: Don’t do what you love. Do what you are.

Instead of hiring a bunch of life coaches, let life be your coach. [...] When you see your career as this vehicle of experimentation, as a vehicle of self-expression, what happens is you start saying “yes” to opportunities that are in the vein of where you’re gifted, and you start getting opportunities to really do something on a higher level.

Purpose moves. Who you are, moves. We’re not a static organism. I think it’s so important to give yourself permission to change. You’re allowed to change your mind. You’re allowed to like something different. People don’t give themselves that because there is such a strong egoic desire to maintain an identity.

Buying into identities can free you as much as it can limit you.

Resentment is a sign of burnout. [...] Anytime you have resentment, what you really have is poor boundaries. Resentment is just feedback that you’ve trespassed on your own boundaries.

A lot of people who are low energy are actually just low on purpose.

The pain of acceptance is never as bad as the slow-burn, gnawing pain of denial.

You really can’t move forward until you have awareness of what’s true.


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Dr. Anthony Balduzzi is a naturopathic doctor, national champion bodybuilder, and founder of the Fit Father Project and Fit Mother Project—online health and fitness communities aimed at empowering busy parents to get healthy, lose weight, and build muscle through practical nutrition and exercise plans.

Seeing his father suffer through sickness and pass away at the age of 42 imprinted in young Anthony’s mind that life is both finite and fragile. Being faced with mortality so early on, no less through a parent, catapulted him into the world of health and fitness. He realized, as he went down this path, that it all comes down to “how we manage our nutrition, our sleep, our movement, and our mindset.”

The tragic, early experience of losing his dad planted a seed within Anthony to help others like his father who were “just busy and caught in the throes of managing everything” at the expense of their healthy routines. “Health,” he continues, “is often put on the backburner when we have bills and responsibilities, and I saw that happening to so many people.”

To this end, Dr. Balduzzi created the Fit Father Project alongside the Fit Mother Project, programs that simplify—and make sustainable—exercise and nutrition for everyday busy parents.

Follow Dr. Balduzzi @fitfatherproject

Follow Chase @chase_chewning

Key Highlights

  • Dr. Balduzzi’s father passed away at the young age of 42. He explains how this tragic period of his life served as the catalyst that began his journey into the world of health and wellness.

  • In a nutshell, what do busy people need to know about taking care of themselves for the long haul?

  • How do we ensure our children’s success through epigenetics?

  • Community is immunity. When we have deep, meaningful connections with other human beings, how do those connections impact us, chemically and physiologically?

Powerful Quotes by Dr. Anthony Balduzzi

There are a lot of things in life that we can’t control. Yet at the same time it was a very empowering experience. After going through the grieving of losing my dad, I realized that I was the man of the house, and that I was able to make choices about how to move forward and how I was going to represent for my mom and my little brother.

This body of ours is intimately connected to the rhythms of the planet, through our circadian rhythm—and how that affects all of the cascades of hormones—and how these different cycles happen in the body.

When you look at longevity for the human mechanism, the longest-living people are not doing P90X workouts. They’re farming. They’re walking up mountains—doing low-intensity, joint-friendly ongoing activity. We are built to walk. Humans are built to walk.

Suffering is our natural, course-correcting mechanism. When something hurts, when something’s wrong, we have this experience of pain. When we feel out of alignment with our core values, we have these emotions of guilt or depression. These things, when viewed in the bigger picture, are opportunities for us to choose something different and move in a better direction.

I think one of the greatest qualities that anybody can embody is a self-reflective nature.

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Shane Heath is the Founder and CEO of MUD\WTR, which offers a coffee alternative using the nine organic ingredients cacao, masala chai, turmeric, sea salt, cinnamon, chaga, cordyceps, reishi, and lion's mane. Mud gives you natural energy, focus, and immune support with only 1/7th the caffeine of coffee.

An artist and entrepreneur at heart, Shane had already founded three companies (if you don’t count the car wash business he started when he was 12) and had been a graphic designer for much of his career before taking on his most unique project yet. Using the Lean Startup approach, Shane initially put MUD out on the market to test its viability while he was still working full-time. This gave him the confidence he needed to go all-in on the business.

“I’m constantly thinking about finding my potential and moving forward,” says Shane, “whether through new experiences or unlearning old beliefs that no longer serve me.”

Listen in as Shane shares his affinity for creative and entrepreneurial pursuits, alongside his intensely spiritual yet grounded approach to caring for your body and mind and using adversity as fuel for growth in all aspects of your life.

Follow Shane @somanypossibilities

Follow MUD\WTR @drinkmudwtr

Follow Chase @chase_chewning

Key Highlights

  • Why did Shane forge ahead with a product that has a lot of stigma tied to it to this day?

  • How did Shane come to settle on the nine ingredients he currently uses for his coffee alternative?

  • What does Shane do to manage stress and keep his creative juices flowing as an artist and entrepreneur?

  • How has Shane’s life improved through taking risks and facing hardships without anyone watching?

  • How have the events of 2020 shaped Shane’s mindset and hope for the future in 2021?

Powerful Quotes by Shane

If you’re drinking hundreds of milligrams of caffeine for years on end, you sort of lose track of what it feels like to be normal and what your baseline is. And when it hits you, it feels amazing. You’re like, “Oh, that’s what real sleep feels like! That’s what my natural energy feels like in the morning when I wake up letting my body do its thing!”

In the business world, you’re going to be presented with things that you didn’t see coming, that you couldn’t have prepared for. And this is how you prepare: You prepare by putting yourself through hardship all the time.

Going into anything that’s challenging, whether it’s a triathlon or working with a coach with a strong intention is almost equally as important as the thing you’re embarking on itself.

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