EFR 868: The Latest Research on How Exogenous Ketones Burn Fat, Improve Endurance and Recovery, Help You Get Better Sleep and Improve Brain Health and Cognition with Dr. Latt Mansor

00:00 - Chase (Host) The following is an Operation Podcast production.

00:03 - Latt (Guest) What we have seen is very consistent that ketones increases oxygen sensitivity and increases oxygenation in recovery studies. So, athletes recovering with ketones, if you are into your well-being and you're generally healthy, you want to improve that performance. You want to improve your sleep. You want to improve your sleep, you want to improve your cognition. This would be the easiest, most convenient and most efficient way to get ketones into your body and you will experience the difference. Hi, my name is Dr Latt Mansour. I'm the research lead of Ketone IQ and today I am at the EverForward radio talking about the science of ketones, all the current studies, all the completed studies and what we know so far about ketones in helping your metabolic health and well-being.

00:53 - Chase (Host) Fellas, let's talk about something most guys ignore until it's too late your hair. If you're starting to notice a little more hair in the drain or your barber's being extra quiet, don't wait. Let's do something about it now. And that is where today's partner, caldera Lab and their new hair care system comes into play. See, like every Caldera Lab product, this is designed specifically for men. This isn't your average shampoo and go routine. It's a high performance three-step system built to support thicker, stronger, healthier hair as you age. Step one the cleanse. This is a nutrient rinse shampoo that removes buildup while strengthening your hair from root to tip. Step two the conditioner. They're ultra hydrating, packed with botanicals to soften and restore conditioner. Step three the scalp serum. This is the game changer, see, it energizes your scalp, promotes thicker looking hair and helps you fight back against thinning. And the best part, like every Caldera lab product, it's powered by science backed ingredients, no harsh chemicals and it smells like a fresh mountain morning. Seriously, I've been using it in the shower for the last week. I absolutely love the way that it makes my hair feel. It feels clean, without being stripped down like I've noticed with other shampoos. So if you care about your hair now and want to keep it looking sharp into your 30s, 40s and beyond, let me put you on Caldera Labs hair care system. And if you want to save 20% off of your entire first purchase, just head to calderalabcom, check out their hair care system or any one of their other amazing men's grooming and skincare products and at checkout use code EVERFORWARD to save 20%. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome back to Ever Forward Radio, my friends, and join me in welcoming back repeat guest, dr Latt Mansour. He is here to deliver groundbreaking insights, new science and loads of clinical evidence and trials about the fascinating world of the all but forgotten fourth energy source ketones. Now, you don't need to be adopting the ketogenic diet in order to reap these benefits. No, in fact, that is one of the primary points that Latt is driving home here today. Ketones Now, you don't need to be adopting the ketogenic diet in order to reap these benefits. No, in fact, that is one of the primary points that Latt is driving home here today how we can get the amazing health, cognition, sleep, longevity benefits from ketones, something that our body naturally produces. How we can get them exogenously. From enhancing heart function in heart failure patients to optimizing high-intensity athletic performance, ketones are changing the game in health, fitness, wellness, longevity. We're gonna be exploring how they offer sustainable energy, improve sleep quality and aid in conditions like sleep apnea, through compelling studies and even personal experience.

03:43 I chime in and give my two cents quite a bit here. I have been using loving supplementing daily with exogenous ketones for pushing for probably almost five years yeah, probably about four years now and you're going to hear why I love them, how I use them and the amazing benefits that I get from them. If you have not yet done so, subscribing to the show would do wonders. It helps support the podcast, it helps us get recommended and referred out on other podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And, if nothing else, it is the one ask I could have of you. If you find value in today's episode, or maybe you've been listening for a few episodes or a lot of episodes and you want to just say thank you following, subscribing on your podcast platform of choice would be the best thing. It would mean the world to me. Thank you so much, if you have, and thank you in advance for taking three seconds right now to subscribe to the show and if you like what Ladd has to say, make sure to go back and check episode 690 back in 2023, two years ago, on his first appearance on the show talking about applying science in the real world and how to optimize your metabolic health and picking the right fuel source for your body. I'll have that episode linked for you in the show notes.

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07:35 You were first on an episode 690 back in March 14, 2023. And we're here again in March 2025. Around applying science in the real world, how to optimize your metabolic health and picking the right fuel source for your body. And we we threw in ketones in there as well, kind of the introduction to ketones and ketone IQ. Uh, and the incredible things that you guys are doing with this little tube of magic, this little shot of magic. So if anybody wants to kind of get that baseline understanding of ketones beyond the ketogenic diet, definitely go down and check that out. I have it in the show notes in the video description box. But, man, you guys have been busy, and not only just getting these. I think if you're tuning in now and you recognize this bottle, it's because what you guys are doing is working and it's just everywhere in terms of performance, cognition, training, endurance and just it's been incredible to see the trajectory of ketone the last two years, but you guys also really care a lot about the science and the research and really understanding what are these little molecules and what can ketones do for a lot of other health benefits.

08:39 And, first and foremost, I want to start with an area that is so top of mind for me right now because I've had to give it up. As a new dad, my sleep is suffering. I'm getting two to three hours at a time. Last night I got my longest stretch of five hours and you know it's getting. I'm getting interrupted. I'm taking care of a newborn, and so sleep has been something for years I prioritized. So I really really feel it, and so I'm really curious to understand more about what you guys are understanding around ketones, sleep health and even sleep apnea, and how ketones affect sleep. So let's get started, man let's get started.

09:14 - Latt (Guest) Um, that's a loaded question, but first of all, thank you for having me back of course, um you know, it has been two years and, yes, we have been busy and it's funny hearing from um, an outsider an outsider who's not with the company on how you see the trajectory of our company, because, yes, we have been pushing in a lot of things and all the ads we're looking at, you know, partnering with olympians, partnering with world record holders, partnering with people who are breaking world records, and then we see, like competitor brands, it's like oh, we are better than kito, oh, we are better than Ketone IQ and we are better than Ketone IQ. Like they are not even really putting the energy in the right direction, in my opinion. So we, as for my job in the company, as the research lead, is really directing that energy and that effort, as well as resources, to push forward the science, because I truly believe that ketones is a molecule that can help us in addressing a lot of these chronic metabolic issues that we've been facing. Is it the cure? It may not necessarily be the cure, but it can certainly help. And that's what I'm here today to do to really elucidate on what are the current sciences, what has been proven and what is going on in the scientific community that is using Ketone IQ to you know, investigate further in different therapeutic areas.

10:35 Having said that, to your question about sleep, what can ketones do to help with sleep? A lot of people, they think of ketones, they think of energy and hence they are very afraid of taking it close to bedtime because they associate energy with caffeine. We have to differentiate between caffeine and ketones. Caffeine is a stimulant. It stops your body from feeling fatigued, it blocks it. So in a way, it does stop you or it does disrupt your sleep cycle. It disrupts your sleep patterns. However, ketones, they are not stimulants. Ketone is a fuel molecule that your body directly uses to produce ATP, which is an energy form in your cells. So providing your cells with energy is the same as providing yourselves with the energy coming from fats or glucose or proteins, so it does not directly disrupt sleep. In fact, in some studies a study that had been published by johns hopkins university is looking at the effect of ketogenic diet improving, uh, sleep outcomes. Improve, improving sleep apnea in particular. Um you?

11:47 - Chase (Host) know when I was looking actually to kind of reference this exact study you're talking about. Yeah, um, I was looking at how ketones affect sleep, looking at one sleep quality and how ketogenic diets improve overall sleep quality and make it easier to fall asleep and stay asleep. Who doesn't want that? It even helps improve sleep stages. The ketogenic diets increase REM sleep, rapid eye movement and slow wave activity during non-REM sleep and even sleep after exercise. And I thought this was really unique because a lot of people look, you got to exercise when you can and sometimes that is only at the end of the day, but then you're ramped up and energized and you struggle with sleep. But they're actually finding that ketone bodies may counteract the decline in REM sleep after strenuous exercise. So it's exactly to your point. It's actually it's not energizing you and getting you away from being able to go to sleep, it's a.

12:36 - Latt (Guest) It's a totally different concept going on biologically yeah, it may provide the energy that you need, but we need energy at all times anyway, because we metabolize at every single second, every single moment of our lives, even when we're asleep. So we need energy even when we're asleep, as to uh, you know, opposed to what people think, that oh, if we're sleeping we don't need energy no, we do need energy. Your brain is not technically sleeping. It's consolidating everything, all the memories, all the experience throughout the day and and really you know, same thing with your muscles it's recovering. It needs energy to build back those muscles and those fibers and all of that. So, in a way, it provides the energy that the body needs, but it also has a signaling property to the brain's gaba pathway, which is anxiolytic. It's relaxation related, so it relaxes your brain so that you can go into deeper and better quality sleep am I understanding you correctly?

13:29 - Chase (Host) you're saying uh, if we have ketones in our system, it can help increase gaba release? Gaba pathway it does, yeah, it does improve the gaba pathway.

13:37 - Latt (Guest) Wow, so that has been. I think one or two papers have been published, have been published.

13:41 - Chase (Host) That's showing that that's incredible, I didn't know that yeah, it's so.

13:44 - Latt (Guest) Ketones has been shown to be anxiolytic, um, so relaxing, um, for, for a lot of people.

13:50 That's why a lot of people also use it for focus, but in a way of countering anxiety and adhd okay so recently, two months ago, I published a review paper looking at the potential of using ketones in um, adhd and autism. Uh, and, and that's one way of of uh using ketones as well, some people who have adhd they use ketones and then they're like, oh my god, I, I can actually sit down and focus and study for two, three hours, which I've never had the capacity to to do that before. And was it too much?

14:25 - Chase (Host) of a stretch to go, a correlation there, because we know the key, I mean the ketogenic diet was, you know, popularized and even you know studied for its benefits, and you know I'm saying kind of really curing epilepsy, so is it. Is that a stretch to kind of link it to to that?

14:39 - Latt (Guest) yeah, I mean, I think it's the, you know, if you think about certain um psychological disorders, psychiatric disorders, they are over-excitation of the brain, like anxiety, adhd, almost always over-excitation of the brain, right, just oversimplifying it. And ketones having the effect of relaxing those sort of circuit pathways in a way is also solving that problem. So I think ketogenic diet is doing something to epilepsy in that in that sense, and then ketones are doing something you know in general to to different symptoms okay.

15:13 - Chase (Host) So if someone's listening to this, they're going okay. Well, does that mean I have to start on the ketogenic diet, I have to get into ketosis in order to get these sleep benefits? Is that that true? Or can we look at things like? You know, your work around exogenous ketones and if so, what's the amount, what's the timing? I mean, what is really the science showing for best practices here for ketones and sleep health?

15:36 - Latt (Guest) That's a great question. I think the way I like to tell people is that as long as you have ketones in your body, as long as you have the molecule in your body, you should experience those benefits. Right, I don't care how you get those ketones. You could either produce your own ketones via endogenous ketones, which is, you know, go through intermittent fasting or ketogenic diet, and some people find that more reliable. Some people find that more like, much easier to follow. That's fine. Some people can't do the keto diet for whatever reason, and they opt for exogenous ketones, which are external sources like ketone iq. Exogenous ketones are a more reliable way to produce that same level of ketones every time you take it, because it's dose right, so it's a replicable dose that people can take in order to time when they need it.

16:33 You know, let's say, we have a podcast right now yeah, and I took it right before this which we did yeah exactly so, which we know we will be functioning at high performance in the next hour, right?

16:46 so same thing with people working out. If you are going through, you know a keto diet already and you want to use the exhaustive ketones to sort of augment it, you can do that as well. So it really depends on what suits your lifestyle most. If you find a diet to be easier to follow, do the diet if you find the diet not enough to get your ketone levels. Now let's talk about blood ketone levels. We are proposing around one to 2.5 millimolar ketone, blood ketone levels, and that you can check that by using a ketone meter. You can get from amazon, um either abbott or like keto mojo with whichever, but blood ketone levels um between 1 to 2.5 millimolar to have a therapeutic effects, um to have some form of performance enhancement, enhancement effect therapeutic effect, meaning like there are just adequate levels in our blood to get these benefits we're talking about.

17:40 - Chase (Host) Yeah, exactly, then of course there could be some deviation.

17:43 - Latt (Guest) You know, person dependent and ketogenic diet has a even bigger deviation between people, because some people they have to do like diet for like a week, two weeks, before you even go into ketosis, yeah, um, and if certain people may be very sensitive to carbs, so like even a little bit of carbs, kick them out of ketosis. That's when people would opt for exogenous ketones, because, regardless of your diet, you can still get your ketone levels up, and in a more reliable manner. I think. I think it's a, it's a very convenient supplement that can replicate all the benefits that you will get from a ketogenic diet um, except, I would say, in from from the point of view of science.

18:26 There are certain therapeutic areas that you might have to do an overhaul of the diet um into a ketogenic diet. So, for example, like insulin resistance, diabetes, weight loss and all that, you might need to change the whole thing into ketogenic diet. That's a fair point, right? But if you are into, you know your well-being and and you're healthy, you want to improve that performance, you want to improve your sleep, you want to improve your cognition. This would be the easiest, most convenient and most efficient way to get ketones into your body and you will experience, you know, the difference.

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22:56 - Latt (Guest) Exogenous.

22:57 - Chase (Host) Excuse me, exogenous yes. So exogenous New dad brain. Yeah, the ketones haven't quite kicked in yet.

23:02 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, exogenous ketones dosing. So I would generally take uh and all these studies. They are body weight matched, so the bigger you are, the more ketones you need. So the general dosing that we use for studies would be 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight. Okay, so that roughly translates to maybe like two shots of this for a two to three shots for an average person. Um, and I know it is high. A lot of people just like they take one shot and they're good and so, for reference, like this bottle here.

23:33 - Chase (Host) This is, that's 10 grams, so this is two shots that's.

23:36 - Latt (Guest) That's one shot, that's 10 gram okay, gotcha okay yeah, so two shots, so two, two bottles of that would be 20 grams.

23:43 Um, that would be the ideal, you know, optimal dose before anything that uses your brain, so you can take it before a podcast, or you can take it before a workout, because you still use your brain, um, and you can take it before sleep, uh, and it won't disrupt your sleep, in fact, fact, it improves your sleep. So, going back to what we were talking about, we are partnering currently with Johns Hopkins University. The author who actually led the investigator, who led that studies, particularly Dr Jonathan June. He's our main collaborator. Now we're running a pilot study in Johns Hopkins using Ketone IQ, because he believes that in his initial study using ketogenic diet, it was the ketones that made the difference and improve the sensitivity of carbon dioxide and oxygen and these people with obstructive sleep apnea improved their symptoms because of the ketones. So right now we're running a pilot study using ketone iq and we have a grant application in uh, the works with the nih looking at a bigger study. Wow, but we'll see with the changes in the government and all that with nih.

24:53 - Chase (Host) So we'll fingers crossed some other acronym governing body might be in its place. Yeah, but you know, that's a good point. I've noticed, um, I never thought of using ketones for sleep health, and so when I tried it for me, the timing was about um, like 30 ish minutes before I would get into bed. Yeah, so probably 45 minutes to an hour before I was actually asleep. You know, give or take, yeah, and uh, what I noticed was I would have more dream, I could remember my dreams more, and that's relevant because we know we dream more and we're getting more REM sleep, and so if I'm remembering my dreams more vividly and more frequently, then that means I'm getting more REM sleep, and that was also even something I could track on my whoop as well. So that was really really impressive, really interesting as well.

25:40 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, we've got an Olympian ice skater who did this for like 30 days and he he's obsessed with the data and he made a whole youtube video about it. Um, he's on.

25:50 He did ketone iq for a month and he measured for sleep at night, sleep for recovery interesting as well as for performance. So he took it before workout and then, you know, before sleep and he measured his recovery score and everything with whoop and he saw a significant improvement in those numbers. So, which is very interesting, a lot of people um initial initial thought when they use it for sleep is that some people are afraid that they will keep them awake, and I think the timing matters. If you take it two, three hours before, it may make your brain a little bit, you're too alert and too cognitive.

26:25 Yeah, exactly take it half an hour before you go to bed. Um, I usually take it and I'll go to bed straight away and I think that is the ideal timing because you want to be, like you know, in bed, like asleep, when the ketones are working, and a lot of people, they told me the first time they took it they're like I've never had such vivid dreams ever.

26:46 And sometimes when I read through papers, or sometimes when I'm during those busy periods where we apply for grants and I'm really reading all these studies. You know, when you bring whatever memory you have throughout the day into your sleep and into your dreams and after waking up you sort of like dream about the same thing, yeah, and it almost like reinforces the memory about those studies you're having like a wake time, sleep time, inception moment exactly.

27:14 - Chase (Host) You're kind of like what's what's real, what was?

27:15 - Latt (Guest) this yeah, yeah yeah, so, so that was quite interesting. Um, so I I can't wait to see this results because it is really in line with what we understand about ketones having the benefit in helping people adapting to hypoxia, which is low oxygen. So sleep apnea causes hypoxia. Because you have obstructive sleep apnea, people snoring, you have people who are generally not sleeping well. They usually have this form of breathing problem or like obstructive respiratory symptoms that over time, contributes to higher risk of obesity, mortality and cardiovascular disease.

28:02 - Chase (Host) Yeah, when I was looking at the sleep apnea portion of you guys' studies here, the sleep apnea portion beyond just like sleep health in general pretty alarming. You know, approximately 25% of adults in the US experience sleep apnea currently and, of course, like you said, the prevalence increases with age, obesity and other medical conditions. And we're talking about 936 million adults globally suffer from clinical sleep apnea. And then we're seeing a lot of other crossover data of like higher sleep apnea, higher BMI and vice versa.

28:34 Things like heart disease, stroke, diabetes all kind of go hand in hand with sleep apnea. So it's not just like, oh, I'm getting a poor night's sleep or I might need to get a sleep test or a CPAP machine. A poor night's sleep or I might need to get a sleep test or a c-pad machine. It's like a very slippery slope into chronic illness and disease and a lot of other comorbidities which we could I'm hearing kind of like nip it in the bud with more ketones yeah, I mean, um, that's what the study is is out to show, right, and we are trying to figure it out in in healthy individuals and in obese individuals as well.

29:03 - Latt (Guest) So you know, as you know, certain disease or certain disease, population will sort of react differently as well, sure? So that that comes down to like you have to try it for yourself and measure it right measure using your aura ring, measure using your whoop, fitbit, whatever garmin, and you track your own data, because that would be the best data that is relevant to you as to what dose, what timing, what use cases you need in order to optimize the use of Ketone IQ.

29:37 - Chase (Host) What do you think is unique about clinical sleep apnea and's symptoms being alleviated by exogenous ketones? What is unique about sleep apnea and ketones compared to just ketones and general sleep health? Is it just we're seeing more of kind of like a difference because there is such a stark difference in, like you're that far on the other end of the spectrum of bad sleep, so, like any, any health is going to be noticeable. What is unique about sleep apnea and ketones?

30:04 - Latt (Guest) That's a really interesting question. I think this is when we differentiate, right? Just normal sleep health we're looking at the relaxation effect of ketones and really giving the energy to your brain, but yet not stimulating it. That's more our sleep health, sleep apnea. On the other hand, we're talking about sensitivity to carbon dioxide and oxygen and improving the oxygenation within your body. Apnea, on the other hand, we're talking about sensitivity to carbon dioxide and oxygen and improving the oxygenation within your body, including to your brain, to your heart, to your muscles. And all that and what we have seen is very consistent that ketones increases oxygen sensitivity and increases oxygenation in recovery studies. So athletes recovering with ketones. So what we've done in Belgium, in KU Leuven, which is a university in Leuven, we did a occlusion and we reoxygenate the thigh muscles. So then we measure the oxygen, the reoxygenation rate, and with ketones the reoxygenation rate increases. And also in altitude, with ketones, people actually adapted to altitude much better. Really, it does help with mountain sickness.

31:23 And then, if you translate that to heart disease, we are looking at what happens in heart disease. You have the lack of blood, you have the lack of oxygen as well, right? So then if you give ketones, would that improve it. So it did. It did improve it. It just one dose of ketone IQ. This was published in December, so very recently, like Christmas Eve, and in Aarhus University in Denmark we are collaborating with. So one dose of ketone IQ in heart failure patients improved their cardiac output, their ejection fraction and a lot of these really significant and impactful biometrics. That helps with clinical outcomes and the reason being.

32:07 I think ketone IQ also contributes to the vasodilation, so it increases the blood vessels. The size of the blood vessels, so it dilates the blood vessels. Vasodilation, so it increases blood flow, increases oxygen being delivered. So if you think about that from a mechanistic point of view and apply it to all these different places sleep apnea, um, hypoxic adaptation at high altitude, recovery and heart disease, um, the mode of transport for oxygen in these cases are all the blood vessels. If you can increase the output of the blood vessels, you can increase the output or the transport of oxygen into these different parts of your body, the muscles, the heart, the brain, right. So even when you're asleep, those oxygen, especially in sleep apnea, you have decreased oxygen in, in, in in the body.

33:07 - Chase (Host) There it is so it goes back to the improvement of oxygen transportation.

33:12 - Latt (Guest) And in fact this ku leuven study on top of measuring um. So this study just concluded. We haven't seen the final analysis yet, but we are planning to submit a manuscript by the end of this month.

33:25 - Chase (Host) So we should have a paper. So March 2025, here as we're live.

33:28 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, exactly. So we are looking at a publication, maybe April or May 2025. On top of measuring the occlusion and reoxygenation, they also measured androgenesis, so formation of new blood vessels, yeah, okay, and they have seen some improved um angiogenesis not only just helping the, the blood oxygen exchange there of existing arteries and vessels, but actually seeing creation of new ones. Yeah, wow especially with regards to uh recovery after exercise.

33:59 - Chase (Host) Just by adding increasing exogenous ketones. Correct, Correct, Wow, this okay. So this kind of gets into a couple of the areas that I wanted to highlight of uh, exogenous ketones for anaerobic exercise benefit as well as heart failure, what you're kind of describing. That really blew my mind. I think maybe it's just me, but when I think ketones I immediately go to, oh, it's the thing that crosses the blood brain barrier. And if again, taking them exogenously, I take them crosses the blood brain barrier and so I get like the brain boosting brain health benefits of that cognitive flow state. But I'm hearing you talk about exogenous ketones being incorporated into a lot of other systems in the body. So is it much more than just the blood brain barrier benefit? Are we actually seeing this crossover into multiple systems of the body to give us things like anaerobic benefit? Great, question.

34:50 - Latt (Guest) So let's say rewind this two years ago when you interviewed me, when we talked about metabolic health and ketones 101. We just know ketones at that point as a fuel source. It crosses the blood-brain barrier. It gives you the energy that the brain needs, because brain normally, um feeds on glucose primarily. But when you're starving, when you have lack of glucose, it feeds on ketones because ketones are typically.

35:16 - Chase (Host) They're kind of called like the fourth fuel source, right the fourth micronutrient yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:20 - Latt (Guest) So exactly, because fats can't get through that barrier, so it has to be converted to ketones in the liver to be transported up.

35:26 That was all what we knew about ketones, but as more studies coming up, especially with these chronic diseases, researchers and scientists have identified that these ketones also have signaling properties that affect the other systems, as you said. So, for example, the KU Leuven study they measured endothelin. Endothelin is a signal that restricts blood vessels. And why is that important? Because when ketones are present, well, ketone IQ specifically, so R13 butanediol, this molecule is present. It inhibits endothelin so that the blood vessels can relax and dilate, and that increases blood output or blood flow, and increases the transportation of oxygen and therefore increases oxygen availability, especially in recovering athletes, to their muscles bring more, you know, substrates and building blocks for their recovery. So this, then, can also be applied to disease areas where a failing heart needs more blood. Because the heart is failing, so not enough blood is being pumped around the the body or within the heart itself. There is not enough blood to to to really energize the heart to work properly, to function optimally.

36:47 - Chase (Host) I want to highlight some areas I found of importance. When we're talking anaerobic exercise here again I'm just trying to keep my listener and viewer in mind of, okay, well, I'm not this super high performer, I'm not a an iron man or I'm not training for the crossfit games or something like this but when we're talking anaerobic exercise and anaerobic is, you know, strength training Exercise does not require the well, oh, dad brain just kicked in we're talking about not utilizing oxygen, right, yeah, there we go. Wow, we're talking about reaction time. So anaerobic exercise can improve reaction time, but aerobic exercise improves both reaction time and a number of correct responses.

37:27 Um, anaerobic exercise is inversely associated with depression in both men and women. So maybe we're battling poor mental health depression. Incorporating this is very important for mental health things like bone strength, fat burning, um, type two fibers as well, so kind of getting just a different variety of how we can, you know, move and how fast. So it's beyond just the ultra high performer or someone maybe getting into a training protocol. These are all everyday person things that we might be dealing with or might encounter down the road, and so it's important to think about exercise in general, specifically anaerobic exercise, as part of your lifestyle. But if we can supplement it, you know, in a small way really, with these exogenous ketones to maximize the benefits, to maximize anaerobic benefit, it's like profound, it's almost like it's like a cheat code.

38:17 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, and I also want to add that anaerobic exercise, the definition really differs from person to person because if say, you are not that fit, your anaerobic threshold is uh, threshold is much lower than a, a, an athlete. Right, so for example, like my CEO, michael Brand, he's a marathoner. Right, he runs at 10 miles per hour. That's his jog.

38:41 That's my anaerobic threshold, you know I'm like at 99 you know vo2 max, um, so, so, so I want people to make sure that they're not drawing a you know, parallel comparison to any studies. Uh, when they need to, like you know, push that far, I, you know, far compared to other people, especially athletes. So they want to use their own VO2 max as reference. So, with regards to ketones and anaerobic exercise, and this is a very, very important and very interesting finding that we just recently published it's one of the links that I sent you the study with University of North Georgia.

39:25 It got published only last month or the month before, and we for the first time looked at exogenous ketones and its effect in anaerobic exercises, because conventionally, ketones are always being associated with endurance exercise, with ultra marathon, with cycling, because it is known that ketones are being produced in the liver by converting fats and therefore we are associating it with the fatty acid oxidation pathway instead of the glucose pathway, which is more used in the anaerobic exercises. So glucose is still king when it comes to anaerobic exercise because it can produce energy without using any oxygen for the first part of the pathway. Now, in this study, we are comparing glucose with ketones, versus glucose only, and what we have seen is that glucose and ketones actually improved the anaerobic sprinting ability. So we asked them to run five kilometers. There was no difference there in terms of performance. But right after the 5k run they had to hop onto the bike the stationary bike and do a Wingate test, in which they will have to sprint, push as hard as they can for 10 seconds.

40:47 Yeah, it's a no-joke test, yeah yeah, 10 seconds and then rest for 30 seconds and do that five times over the five bouts of anaerobic sprints. We have seen that ketones and glucose increase uh, average power, peak power, cadence or velocity, and it decreased a fatigue index so when you're saying glucose and ketones, are you saying so they have ketones were administered with a glucose supplement or like no actual meal they had an actual meal.

41:17 So just to say that we are not depriving these uh participants of glucose like they. They have glucose in their system, okay, um and and we're not asking them to fast before the workout, so so these are not fasted individuals. They had a breakfast, um, two hours before and then they got their ketone supplementation right before the workout. So their bodies, they've got their glycogen stores, they've got their um glucose, you know not at a you know baseline level, and they have ketones on top of that and so the meal with that.

41:51 - Chase (Host) It doesn't have to be something right before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you know muscle at least stores glycogen. You can, I think, like 15, 16 hours ahead of time, so it's not like you have to have a meal right before an event. Um, it can be, let's say, the night before, right, and then could you still count that as glucose plus ketones. If you meal in the evening train in the morning supplement with ketones, you're getting that same ketone and glucose benefit.

42:15 - Latt (Guest) I would recommend to at least take something in the morning of you know, something that contains glucose, because a lot of these performance studies, if they want to do a glycogen depletion, usually they just ask them to fast overnight, so after dinner, not eat anything until the next morning and then go straight into the workout. So technically, what the literature would would say it's like that. That process, that protocol, basically depletes your glycogen. Oh right, okay. So even if, yes, it may still have some glycogen left, you would want to replenish that to make sure that it's plenty and for your body to choose from. And then the ketones on top of that.

42:58 So from that study, we don't, because we didn't measure mechanistically what's happening within the muscle or like within the cell. There's no like in vitro study. That was just we thought. You know it might be interesting to look at, because no one has looked at anaerobic exercise. So but a lot of our athletes who are speed skaters, crossfitters, mma fighters, high intensity athletes, and they are experiencing benefits from ketone IQ and they are telling us that no, this makes a difference and we're like it doesn't make sense from a physiological point of view because it should go down the fatty acid oxidation pathway and it should benefit you for endurance exercises. But not and we have seen papers that publish when you're on a ketogenic diet, you do exercise in a high intensity sort of form. They have detrimental effects like what like. So they push this, these people on ketogenic, ketogenic diet, and then they perform worse than normal diet people because, well one, these people are not even keto adapted so they weren't already on the ketogenic diet.

44:05 - Chase (Host) They just hey, let's do the keto diet on you and then test Interesting Exactly. Well, that kind of makes sense.

44:10 - Latt (Guest) It kind of makes sense because you don't have the sugar which you are usually relying upon. But with exogenous ketones, that's the new paradigm that allows our body to have a dual fuel system, because a ketogenic diet it's either or either glucose or ketones. You can't have both, because once you have ketone, once you have glucose in your body, your ketones will stop being produced, whereas with exogenous ketones you can have glucose and you take ketones at the same time. Your body will then prioritize whichever it thinks. It thinks it's more efficient to use and use it and improve your performance. So what we thought that that was happening, apart from the energetics of ketones and glucose and at that point in that study, is also the effect of ketones on the brain. It may have an analgesic effect, which is the the pain numbing effect, uh, on the brain, uh, with regards to the pain that they're going through yeah, when they so the, the training doesn't seem to be quite as ass kicking you know basically, or?

45:15 you find yourself able to like endure a little bit more exactly so the whole point of wingate test or any sort of anaerobic test is to induce that buildup of pain and lactic acid and sort of local within those muscles and that's usually where fatigue comes in as well. So if your brain perceives it as not as painful, then you may be able to last longer, push further and also subjectively feel like it's not as hard and therefore the fatigue index may also reflect that hold on.

45:51 - Chase (Host) So am I hearing you correctly that by incorporating exogenous ketones into my training routine, I can have both this physiological benefit if dose and timing are kind of in alignment with what we're talking about but also I'm still getting that blood brain barrier benefit and having this numbing benefit, if you will, so that even though the ketones might not be the thing fueling my workout directly because I'm still using another fuel source, I'm getting that benefit of being able to power through more, so in a sense, they are providing the extra oomph for the workout. Yeah, okay. So then what's the best way to maximize both? You know, should I be looking at, you know, only relying on exogenous ketones and less on another fuel source, like a meal or carbohydrate or glucose or something? Is there a way to kind of like really lean into both of those buckets?

46:43 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, I think the best way is still leaning on both, because our bodies are meant so. Okay, let's take one step back. Let's talk about metabolism. A lot of people think of metabolism as a straight line, but it's not. It's always in a flux. Your body is always metabolizing glucose, fats all at the same time, but the rates are different and, depending on what activity you're doing, how intense it is, your body will switch the rates up and down, whether it's glucose more and fat less or fat more and glucose less. So, in a way, your body knows what's best for you. So giving your body the options would be the best choice, in my opinion, because then you can optimize that workout together. Because also, let's face it, one shot of Ketone IQ is only 70 calories. It is not going to power you through a two-hour workout. Just that alone. Some people do. Some people go do fast workout with ketone IQ and run for two hours.

47:50 - Chase (Host) I personally and more aerobic, yeah, and more aerobic.

47:53 - Latt (Guest) Less anaerobic, less anaerobic, yeah some people might find that they bonk out really early with anaerobic exercise. So what I would say is use your optimal nutritional strategy, as is not change it. Add ketone iq on top of it and then see what the difference is, because that's how you would conduct a scientific study, right. You would add one variable and keep the rest constant, so that you can for sure tell that it is that variable that is making the difference. So if you want to really be mindful of calories, for example, then maybe you can substitute certain fats, um or glucose. It depends on on which one you prefer.

48:42 - Chase (Host) So if we wanted to supplement with exogenous ketones, we could just adjust another macronutrient correct, and you say it would be more fat. So maybe adjust our fat, our calories from fat, a little bit more than the carbohydrate. Yeah, interesting, why? Why fat?

48:54 - Latt (Guest) I, I because, like I said, it comes down to the sort of like fatty acid oxidation pathway okay um, that's what I would.

49:02 I would think, but it really depends on how, what your goal is and how your body metabolize like both, both, um, uh, both substrates. Because, for example, right, if your body is always preferring fat over glucose and you already have a low um glucose intake anyway, and having low glucose intake does not affect your anaerobic exercise, even though you do have to have a little bit of glucose, then why not just substitute some of the fat? That's fine, because you're already taking majority. You know of that fat um.

49:44 - Chase (Host) Otherwise, if you feel like you can really take down the glucose even more and you want to um, then you can try that how would, how would we know which maybe fuel source we are currently, or how would we currently know which fuel source our body prefers to utilize for anaerobic exercise, so that we can then figure out which way we want to go with exogenous ketones?

50:08 - Latt (Guest) couple of ways supplement that macronutrient yeah, a couple of ways you can do the vo2 max um test, which nobody wants to do that.

50:15 - Chase (Host) Yeah, exactly, I've done that twice let's say, you know, let me rephrase that how can, like the, or the everyday athlete, the person that you know cares about getting in their training exercise several days a week and you know, and feeling good during it and maybe pushing a little bit more? How can we kind of bring this awareness into that? How do we know?

50:32 - Latt (Guest) trial and error. Okay, if without, without data and without measurements. You just have to see how you feel and repeat enough times that you have enough subjective data to go off of.

50:45 - Chase (Host) Okay, so then let's go. If it is more qualitative and that you know my qualitative, I mean again, I want to feel good while I'm training and stay adherent for as long as possible um, how do I know when I'm really feeling good? What is a fair qualitative variable of training?

50:59 - Latt (Guest) one really easy way for me to do it, um, personally, is to look at the intensity that I'm doing a certain exercise, either my weight or either my speed that I'm going at, and then I really I correlate that with my heart rate, okay, so, if I say maintain the same speed or maintain the same weight. And then weights, I think less, much harder to correlate.

51:25 - Chase (Host) But let's say that can be very subjective, very in the same person or the same trajectory, like same program, like look, let's be honest, some days you can really move some weight and some days you just can't do a lot of other things, exactly if your sleep is is screwed if your food that day.

51:38 - Latt (Guest) but the speed wise it's quite consistent, right. You stay the same speed, so same intensity, and then you look at your heart rate. Some days I do feel like it's easier, and then I look at my heart rate, it actually is lower, so I can push the same amount.

51:54 - Chase (Host) So there's qualitative meets quantitative.

51:56 - Latt (Guest) Yeah so again.

51:56 - Chase (Host) So this is just really introducing a higher level of awareness maybe we're having in our training to go. How do I feel right now about this particular exercise? And you know, even looking at like a Fitbit or an Apple Watch, or even just, you know, counting on your wrist, you could really pair those two pieces of data pretty quickly. Yeah, that's impressive.

52:13 - Latt (Guest) It's like how intense is your intense workout? You know like what is considered your intensity based on your heart rate, Because then your heart rate will take into account your body weight, your resistance, your fitness level, your hormone levels and it will sort of reflect that in the heart rate increase and how high it goes and how long it stays up. So if there are certain feels that you will, you feel good doing the exercise and you feel like the exercise is like, oh, it's kind of doable and I can push further, Then obviously you do thrive on that sort of source of fuel, whether it's fats or carbs.

52:57 - Chase (Host) I'll share a little quick story. I actually uh the ketone kind of ruined working out for me for a little while because I, for a little while, my schedule shifted and I had to. The only way I of ruined working out for me for a little while because I, for a little while, my schedule shifted and I had to the only way I could get my training in during the week was I had to shift to training in the morning, and by morning, I mean like I was going to like 6am, 7am kind of training calls, and I was finding myself working out longer and moving some weight. That actually I was like puking and like I was just going. And the next thing I realized was like, oh, it's been 15 minutes longer, 20 minutes longer. I just I just kept going because I had the endurance and stamina and I felt great.

53:32 And the next thing, I know, I was like puking in the corner and I was like why I'm like, oh, chase, because you're pushing yourself way more. But like what? Not to a point of like I wasn't in pain or injuring myself, but I was just going, going, going and uh, I was like, oh shit, the only thing different, I was taking this stuff and so I can't. It's like it's it's making me work out more than I need to or want to right now, so I had to put it on the shelf a little bit it gives you the mental resilience that you need if you want to push yourself, yeah, um.

53:59 - Latt (Guest) but also, you know again, having having that discipline, it's Like stick to the reps stick to the training protocol Chase. Yeah, stick to the procedure and protocol, Stick to the training program. But you know, I do get what you mean. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, I just finished an hour of like just cardio zone too. I feel like I can do some sprints. I'm like, yeah, you don't want that, because tomorrow your legs going to be you know hating you Exactly.

54:27 - Chase (Host) Yeah, so uh, which is another good reminder here about anaerobic exercise and that's recovery. So we you were kind of talking about it earlier but really walk us through the benefits of supplementing our diet, our training, with exogenous ketones through the lens of enhanced recovery.

54:41 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, so what we have seen is post-exercise having. You know what we already know having carbs and proteins are very important because the carbs will replenish your glycogen stores, the proteins building blocks right, I can't speak enough about proteins. How important proteins are as building blocks for your muscles, for enzymes, for your hormones, all of it. You need those amino acids, so you need to take your protein, but then in studies shows that when you take ketones on top of that increases glycogen resynthesis. It improves, uh, it increases m2 activation really, which also increase protein synthesis. Yeah, that was an old paper.

55:24 - Chase (Host) That was, I believe, 2018 so now we're getting to like a whole longevity conversation.

55:27 - Latt (Guest) There's wow, yeah, yeah, yeah actually, uh, we just spoke to a professor from virginia tech. Uh, this week.

55:35 - Chase (Host) Oh, it's literally my backyard. I'm from ronald virginia, oh cool, yeah, so they're in blacksburg, yeah yeah, uh, dr kevin david.

55:41 - Latt (Guest) Uh, we're looking at potentially putting in a grant application to look at diabetes, insulin resistance and longevity using Ketone IQ.

55:51 - Chase (Host) All right, well, we know what we're talking about. When you come back for episode three.

55:54 - Latt (Guest) Exactly exactly.

55:56 - Chase (Host) But to go back to the recovery aspect, so now are you saying adding exogenous ketones with like a post-workout carb protein meal or fuel source?

56:03 - Latt (Guest) It could be meal, it could be a protein shake any form of source that contains those substrates could be helpful. And ketones have been shown to increase mTOR activation, increase glycogen resynthesis and now we are looking at also increasing the angiogenesis and reoxygenation. And all of that, um, especially for the endurance athletes. And um, they saw an improvement in epo, uh, which is that again, which is erythropoietin, which is the signal that increases red blood cells formation. So, remember, blood doping was the thing. Right, people directly inject the ep in direct, injecting EPO into their bloods and therefore having much bigger capacity for oxygen delivery, so they can perform much better. Now that increases a lot of other health risks and you are increasing your body EPO level to a supra physiological level. What we're talking about is minor but still significant with ketone IQ, your own body, uh, producing more epo.

57:05 - Chase (Host) So it's not like blood doping, um, so are we also talking, like you know, the same benefits we're talking about of exogenous ketones in that dose, for, you know, pre-workout? Uh, we're talking the same dose post-workout, that's correct the same dose.

57:18 - Latt (Guest) So all the science is around remind us again that dose again 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight. So um I personally I would take two shots just easier for myself, so two shots pre and two shots post. Yeah, to maximize training and to maximize recovery, that's correct.

57:32 - Chase (Host) Wow, yeah, man, okay, so I, I know when I'm in a good recovery state. Um, walk us through again more qualitative, because I the scientific evidence is is profound and especially we're talking like a high performer, ultra endurance athlete, olympic athlete. But again, the everyday person here, which is more people in my audience why does a good recovery experience matter? And like we're talking about more qualitatively, of enhanced training, qualitatively, of feeling wise, what does good recovery feel like?

58:02 - Latt (Guest) I. I think a good recovery would feel like you're energetic, you feel like you're well rested. Um, the soreness also is very minimal because, you know, I think a lot of fitness influencers fitness like gurus or trainers now really come out and say that, hey, you don't need to be super sore the next day to signify that you had a good workout. You know, if you are accustomed to working out consistently, you shouldn't feel that sort of soreness. So good recovery also would sort of include that. And I think, for people who especially work out every day, you will feel it as soon as you you start working out the next day. Right, whether you can do the same weights, whether you have that same energy, um, if you start lifting, you will feel that, okay, I had a good recovery versus okay I, I I have, you know, screw up my sleep last night. Um, and sometimes, well, there are ketones for that.

59:02 They're ketones for that Exactly. We know now too Exactly, and sometimes whatever happened throughout the day may also affect you. You know mentally too. So I think generally that sort of well-restedness, that energy, energetic state would be a good subjective field to go with.

59:22 - Chase (Host) So now I'm kind of connecting all the dots. Yeah, let's say I'm you know, I'm going through my day, I'm an active person, health conscious, and I'm really intrigued by exogenous ketones and I'm taking them to enhance my training. I'm taking them to enhance my recovery. I'm also taking them in the evening to enhance sleep, which also enhances recovery, so that we can have a better training session. So I'm personally connecting these dots and hearing this like kind of self feeding cycle. Of all the benefits, do we reach a point where I actually your body's getting saturated, like no, you kind of reach this point of diminishing return. You got to cycle it. You know you got to take x amount of days on, days off. What's the threshold here with ketones for training, recovery, sleep, great question.

01:00:02 - Latt (Guest) There is no cycle, there's no saturation, and the reason being um. I would say the way I look at ketone supplementation is a similar way how I look at protein supplementation. Have you ever heard about like protein saturation or I have to cycle off.

01:00:19 - Chase (Host) Yeah, way you know. The old school thought was like if you have more than 30 grams, you know, in a sitting it's just you know wasted yeah exactly more than like a gram to gram and a half per pound of body weight. It's wasted, right? I'm not going to get you know which has been proven wrong, right yeah, so.

01:00:35 - Latt (Guest) So the same thing you know. You are thinking if, even if we're taking two shots before, two shots after, we're looking at about 40 grams, which is around 280 calories, that's nothing compared to the amount of foods that we are eating per day.

01:00:53 - Chase (Host) Okay, that's a real sorry to interrupt, but that's just a really good point, because I think a lot of people, when we're looking at especially if you're looking at calories, like two to 250 calories a day is kind of that number we're looking for increasing or decreasing if gaining weight, losing weight, is on your mind. So I'm here, we could be getting all these training, recovery, sleep benefits, but if we're adding 280 calories a day, are we going to be gaining weight? On ketones, yes, if you are on calorie surplus.

01:01:17 - Latt (Guest) Okay, so you will have to adjust accordingly.

01:01:20 - Chase (Host) Well, wouldn't we be in a calorie surplus just by we'd be adding this in? So if we do nothing different, if we're adding in exogenous ketones, so we would have better training, better recovery, better sleep, but we're going to be getting weight.

01:01:32 - Latt (Guest) It could potentially be muscle mass, because if you're lifting heavier, you're resting better, you are increasing m2 activation and you're increasing protein synthesis, so you could potentially be putting on muscle mass and that in turns also help um burn body fat okay, and that we're talking that amount of calories daily.

01:01:53 - Chase (Host) We're talking that's about one to two pounds ish.

01:01:55 - Latt (Guest) You know, uh given about a four week period, if that.

01:01:59 - Chase (Host) So, yeah, I just want to bring that up to be conscious of like body composition or weight you know, some people might have that more on their mind of like the number on the scale versus my training, recovery, qualitative, how I feel. But yeah, I mean, if our sleep is improved, if we're training better or recovery is better, we're really probably looking at, I would even say more of like a recomposition. So the number on the scale might say the same, but we're increasing protein synthesis, becoming more fuel efficient, you know, burning fat, covering better. So I mean, all the things are kind of in our favor of, I would say, a recomposition, exactly, even if that's not your goal.

01:02:33 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, exactly, I mean, I think most people, even when they are losing weight, I think it will be really beneficial for them to think about recomp instead of just losing weight, because ultimately, you still like what's the goal after you lose weight, right. You still want to build some muscles after that, right? So if you can do that at the same time, there's no reason why you know not to.

01:02:56 - Chase (Host) That's. Another debunked myth we heard for years in the fitness community is that you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Yeah, yeah, so I you know ketones might be one of the keys In the past year.

01:03:07 - Latt (Guest) I myself, I've lost 20 plus pounds. I was going to say, man, you look really good.

01:03:12 - Chase (Host) You look in a completely different like recap since the last time I saw you, even like last summer.

01:03:17 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, I was 20 pounds heavier, more than 20 pounds heavier last time I saw you and I tracked using my in body. Yeah, my muscle mass has only gone. It has been floating between 75 to 77 pounds, but my body fat has gone from 40 plus pounds to 20 plus pounds.

01:03:37 - Chase (Host) That's huge Congrats, man so.

01:03:39 - Latt (Guest) I managed to lose weight on calorie deficit without losing muscle. Yeah, and my, my weight training has either been consistent or increased, which at the moment, the increase in the loads are causing some problems with my joints, because I know that I'm not eating enough to help with the recovery, so I need to like dial back down those weights. Yeah, um, you know, my joints recover, but other than that, like, I'm pretty happy with where I am and my training didn't change that much. It was mainly the calorie tracking and the nutrition and ketones really helped with my recovery, as well as appetite suppression.

01:04:21 - Chase (Host) Oh, yeah, so walk us through that. What role do exogenous ketones have in appetite suppression? Oh yeah, so walk us through that. Um, what role do exogenous ketones have in appetite suppression, and why? Why should that be of interest for people if, especially, like, weight loss is not top of mind for them?

01:04:33 - Latt (Guest) so what we have seen is like is is is that ketones have an effect on ghrelin, which is a hunger hormone. It that's one that makes you feel hungry. That, yeah, exactly. So when you take ketones, you feel less hungry. But those only work with people who are on a sedentary lifestyle. So if you're working out some people, they do find that it does not affect their appetite at all. So I think there's a counter effect, right, right, because as you work out you, you, you know you are releasing all these other hormones that should tell your body that, oh, I need fuel because I need to refuel and re uh, re uh supply, and the effect of ketone is is sort of minor enough for them to override that. But for people who are sedentary and they take ketones, they find that later on that day they don't feel as hungry anymore. So currently we have a study that is ongoing right now at university of british columbia, um, and I believe they're still recruiting.

01:05:39 - Chase (Host) So if you have audience in british columbia, they can sign up um, I'd be curious to see a study because if we're talking about appetite suppression, less ghrelin or ghrelin suppression, I'd be curious to see ketones versus like Ozempic.

01:05:52 - Latt (Guest) Exactly so. Initially we were like sort of playing tongue in cheek sort of ad is like oh, this is like Ozempic in the bottle.

01:06:03 - Chase (Host) I don't think the effect is as strong as Ozempic, because Ozempic is like it's literally pharmaceutical grade, prescription grade, exactly.

01:06:07 - Latt (Guest) So I think the effect is not going to be as significant, but it will be very similar. And a doctor that I spoke to, Dr Cyworth, based in Florida, he does believe that ketone IQ has a similar effect to a GLP-1.

01:06:20 - Chase (Host) I was going to say one of it's the same GLP-1 pathway, it could be GLP-1 inhibitor, we don't know.

01:06:29 - Latt (Guest) But in that study we'll be measuring the effect of ketone IQ on ghrelin, on leptin, on peptide YY, on overall calorie consumption and in both healthy individuals and obese individuals. So it'd be really interesting. I think that study is planned to be completed by middle of this of this year, 2025, and we should see a publication coming out by q3 or q4 so sorry if I missed it, but is it really directly exogenous ketones?

01:06:51 - Chase (Host) the more ketones we have in our system, especially if we live a sedentary lifestyle, it directly suppresses ghrelin, or it's just kind of like it the body just kind of recognizes ketones more than ghrelin no, it suppresses.

01:07:03 - Latt (Guest) It suppresses ghrelin. Whether it is dose dependent, we don't know. I can't say that the more ketones we have, the more it suppresses. All we know is that by doing the standard dose, it does suppress it significantly to a certain extent, especially if you are not doing a, a high, doing a physical activity that day. Okay, so okay, um, that is what we know so far. So that's why we embarked on this journey for for to investigate the effect in the university of british british columbia. So for me, when I take it at night, especially before bed, that's usually the time where it's four hours after dinner and my body starts to go hungry again because I work out in the evening smart, smart.

01:07:49 - Chase (Host) Yeah, so you kind of helps, kind of boost this like pseudo intermittent fasting period correct.

01:07:54 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, yeah. So at that time I don't have the munchies. You know, you don't have that gurgling feeling when you're trying to go to bed I only ever want like cereal at like 8.30 pm Right, which ruins my sleep. Exactly, Exactly. So I'll have you know two shots of ketones right before bed. It stops me from feeling hungry and it helps with my sleep, so it's a win-win for me. That's how I use it.

01:08:17 - Chase (Host) I don't know if I shared this with you, but I've talked about actually with Michael before and I've talked about it, I think, on past episodes. Um, I actually have noticed a profound benefit, my interpretation benefit, Uh, I'll even say a more enhanced experience, when I've uh, I've been going through ketamine assisted psychotherapy and ketamine at home therapy for like three years now. Um, and when I I'll use ketone IQ, I'll supplement exogenous ketones about 20 to 15 minutes prior to dosing. My experience, my therapeutic benefit, is profoundly enhanced and I don't need to change the dose of the ketamine with my provider at all. This I liken it to kind of like a rocket booster.

01:08:58 - Latt (Guest) How is that ketamine being administered?

01:09:00 - Chase (Host) So I'll do IM uh through lozenge at home. If I'm in clinic with like a traditional cap experience it's intramuscular okay. More often than not these days it's just at home. My wife is a nurse practitioner and she administers and we do a lozenge uh like 300 milligrams to lately 400 milligrams um, and I'll use this about 15 minutes before um just so I can kind of have like that smooth experience going off and it's profoundly more therapeutic and profoundly more intense, but in a very like good way. That makes sense.

01:09:31 - Latt (Guest) What is the goal of the therapy so for?

01:09:35 - Chase (Host) me. I continue to use ketamine therapy for just anxiety relief, ongoing PTSD. Those are really kind of my two buckets and it's just an immense relief addition.

01:09:48 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, because what I read about ketamine is that it has a dissociative effect that helps with the PTSD and anxiety, because you basically can look at yourself from a third person point of view and you separate yourself from that old memory.

01:10:02 - Chase (Host) um, that's haunting you so um but also now, the more I've learned about ketones and also the more I've studied ketamine, it has profound brain health benefits. It's more than just that dissociative state of being that allows you to like have a different perspective on your life and that traumatic event that you're working through, but also like the enhanced neuroplasticity and neural cross talk. So you couple that with the blood brain barrier crossing benefits of ketones that we just talked about. It's like I'm getting this, you know, massive therapeutic benefit, mental health benefit through the ketamine, but then like the actual brain enhancing brain health benefits of exogenous ketones. Yeah, yeah, just want to share that with you guys. So I don't know if you're doing any studies in like the ketamine space, but, um, that's something I think might want to look into not at the moment, but we we were talking about it, um, maybe like psilocybin or any sort of psychedelic.

01:10:55 - Latt (Guest) So the the theory around it, um, or the hypothesis around it could be that the substance are increasing brain energy demand. So whenever people take these substances and they look at functional MRI, they can see the increase in brain activity right. When you have increase in brain activity, you have increase in brain energy demand. What does ketones do? Ketones are brain energy supply, so you're directly supplying the demand that you just created by taking in these molecules and these substances and therefore having the increased intensity or increased therapeutic benefits that comes with those substances that makes total sense.

01:11:37 - Chase (Host) That's the point of I mentioned neural crosstalk. Neural crosstalk is basically we see this through these functional MRI machines of you know, people going through ketamine and other psychedelic experience like MDMA, psilocybin, but especially ketamine. You're having hemispheres, parts of your brain talk to each other that have never spoken to each other. They're in through neural firing or like not a long time. So you're actually laying down new neural connections. So yeah, of course, like if that's happening and then this enhances that, like that's one of his main functions.

01:12:06 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, that's yeah, there you go, science, there you go.

01:12:10 - Chase (Host) Um. Well that you know. I know you guys are doing so many amazing things over at keto and iq and it's great reconnecting with you, man, and I'm excited to see the future of the science and I love how you guys are so just like on the streets, boots on the ground, getting this stuff out in the hands of people that just want to like feel good, move good, um, but also just like spending a lot of time and research in like clinical evidence, so that really matters to me. Um, because we can talk qualitative all day. What feels good to me might not feel good to you, but we can couple that with the science, like that's what I'm all about yeah, I think for me it sometimes becomes a almost like a disadvantage, because I'm so into the science, so into the data that when I'm like I don't feel good today, but then if I drink it I still don't feel good, but then I'm like I know my sleep was shit last night.

01:13:01 I know my nutrition was shit today, but the data shows differently you know, and that's a really good point, a good reminder, because now you know I've been wearing a, I use a whoop to track everything, and so I'm coming back now for my self-imposed paternity leave. I was off for like the last month and I'm definitely in a sleep deprivation state. You know know how I feel?

01:13:21 yeah, like brain fog galore, like I feel like an idiot uh, and also my whoop data like recovery is down, hrv is down, sleep quality is down, my number of interruptions in the night are up. So now what I'm going to do, actually, because you guys keep me stocked here, thank you, I'm going to start using this for sleep. I'm really want to track, I think for the next 30 days, uh, going from 30 days of sleep deprivation to 30 days of ketones for sleep health and you've got a youtube yeah, very big youtube now.

01:13:48 It's been growing, yeah, we've been growing a lot, so and this will be out make a whole video documenting that 30 days.

01:13:54 - Latt (Guest) That'll be super interesting because I think a lot of people very interested in that I'm gonna copy my man, shervin.

01:13:59 - Chase (Host) You know he does all these amazing videos of you. Know I tried this stuff for 30 days.

01:14:03 - Latt (Guest) Yeah, so you know sleep deprived new dad versus 30 day ketone dad and I think majority of our sort of consumers are, like you know, age 35 and 50 or 55. I think a lot of these people also new dads, so they could definitely relate to your experience.

01:14:21 - Chase (Host) New dads, take, take note. I'll take note. In 30 days I'll have my numbers to share. Yeah, this is amazing. Well, before I let you go, man, I'm gonna get my last question, and you know I've asked you this before, but, everford, I wanna get every guest interpretation of you. Know what does it mean to you? How do you keep putting one foot in front of the other? How do you utilize the qualitative and quantitative aspects of your work and your life to help you living a life?

01:14:45 - Latt (Guest) ever forward, man. So, those two words, what do they mean to you today? Oh, ever forward, I think. Right now I can't even remember what I what I answered before, but I think, based on my mental state and my current situation right now, the word, the words ever forward, for me it just means expect the unexpected, expect the unknown, because you never know what will come next. Keep your mind open and you, the only thing you can do is to equip yourself as best as you can to deal with the present, because only by dealing with that can you be ready for the next day or the next step. And for me it's just there'll be ever forward, because whatever you've accumulated will stay with you and no one can take that away from you. Yes, sir, and therefore you are carrying all this, with all this armor, with you going forward and you'll be ready to weather any storm that may come.

01:15:46 - Chase (Host) One of the most refreshing interpretations I've heard in a while. Man and I always tell my guests there's never a right or a wrong answer, but that was very refreshing.

01:15:54 - Latt (Guest) I like that Because I feel like with the political climate, with the changes in the world, with the wars and everything you never know, and with COVID that happened before. You never know what will happen. All I can do is make sure I'm in good health, make sure both mental and physical, make sure I cherish the people around me that I still have and make sure that I give back whenever I can. And a lot of people they're like oh, you know, I want to make sure I live a legacy and I think I saw an interview Mike Tyson before his fight with Jake Paul and they're like oh, what legacy are you going to leave? He's like what legacy? Like that's ego talk.

01:16:36 - Chase (Host) Like when I'm dead, I'm dead Dude. His interview responses kill me. Yeah, he is so egoless, yeah.

01:16:42 - Latt (Guest) So I'm like I really relate to that, because when I'm dead, I'm dead. Like people are like, oh, don't you care about the science. Like I said, someone else is going to step up and be the scientist, someone else is going to really, push for metabolic science, just like you're doing now for the people before you, exactly.

01:17:04 People will always. People have been doing that before me and people will will do that after me, but what I want is for my own personal life to be fulfilling enough for me and for the people around me, and that's all I can do, man I love that answer.

01:17:10 - Chase (Host) I love that answer. Well, that, um, I'm gonna have all of your information and ketone iq down in the show notes. And if you guys want to check this stuff out, um, you know we've been talking about ketone iq in particular. But just you know, looking at the science here, I know we're talking we're referencing the exogenous ketone molecule and particularly the one that you all utilize at ketone iq. So if you want to check it out, look in the show notes the video description box. I've been using this stuff for years I think four years now, ever since I found you guys. Um, I've missed literally three, maybe four podcast interviews in four years. This stuff has just been a game changer for my cognition and it's got to help my new dad life now for sure.

01:17:52 - Latt (Guest) And also, just to add, a lot of different companies now new companies popping up doing ketones and you will see a lot of quote, unquote, ketquote ketones in the market, amazon and all that. Make sure you check what is the active ingredient. So our active ingredient is r13 butanediol. Some other companies they just call it ketones.

01:18:12 But all you get, all you know, and that's the one in all the scientific literature, right, that's the most most of most of it is ketone ester, because they have been around longer, and then those that says ketone iq are r13 butaned dial okay, whereas a lot of these companies they do the cheaper version, which is the ketone salts, which is bhb bound with any salt like sodium, potassium, magnesium, and those taste good because they are on in very low dose but it does not increase your blood ketone levels even above one. So that's what studies have shown and because of that it does not have that profound of a therapeutic effect if you would um having ketone salts.

01:18:55 - Chase (Host) So we know they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. So, yeah, you guys are doing something right, exactly. Copycats out, copycats out there. Yeah, exactly. For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode show notes or head to everforwardradio.com