EFR 894: Why Modern Life Keeps You Suffering (and How to Break Free) with Ishan Shivanand

00:00 - Chase (Host)

The following is an Operation Podcast production. 

00:03 - Ishan (Guest)

The body is a vessel and our consciousness is living through this body. Pain and suffering is when we start to think we are the body and why it is pain and suffering. Because every joy that the body will get is a joy that will be taken away from the body. So we derive joy from our youth that will be taken away from the body. So we derive joy from our youth it will be taken away. We derive joy from our beauty it will be taken away. So if all my understanding of the self is the body, then death is my constant companion and loss and suffering are a daily reminder. Hello, I salute you. I salute the divine within all of you. My name is Ishan Shivanand and I am at Ever Forward Radio having a wonderful conversation with Chase. This conversation is about meditation and the practice of immortality, so thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. This conversation is about meditation and the practice of immortality, so thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. 

01:08 - Chase (Host)

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02:44 - Ishan (Guest)

So the legend is that Buddha, when he was Siddhartha, he left his wife and kid, he left his empire, he left everything in search of his spiritual curiosity. And then he found enlightenment and when he was a great man with thousands of followers in his sangha he was a great man with thousands of followers in his Sangha. His wife came one day with a kid and asked why did you leave us? And what you got, could you have gotten while you were home or was leaving everything necessary? And Buddha just looked at her and said no, it wasn't. But at that time he didn't have that wisdom. 

03:28

And that line stuck with me so much because, when I look at myself, I am a person who was raised in a monastery, in an ashram in India, and then I left that and I'm here and I find no difficulty in my spirituality, whereas I don't know why, when an American goes to India or somewhere there, then it's it becomes the main theme that you know you have to leave everything that's western, you have to renounce everything that you stand for. You can't drink your good coffee, you can't be a very productive member of society. Only then can you be spiritual, which I don't really relate with because the lineage that I come from has always been the lineage of warrior monks, kings as monks, householders as monks, householders as monks. And I think that is what the world needs right now Buddhas not just under a tree, but Buddhas in the boardroom, buddhas in politics, buddhas in podcasts. 

04:37

Why not? Because everybody deserves the wisdom and nobody has the time now to go to the forest and look for stuff. 

04:45 - Chase (Host)

I wholeheartedly agree that everybody deserves the wisdom that you know that should be a God-given, an innate human right. You know we're all here on the same earth, we all are birthed, we go through our life experience and you know to be the same quote creature on this planet. You know you would think we all should have the same opportunity. But to talk about, you know, jumping a little bit ahead here. You know enlightenment, spirituality, um, a cool, calm and collected center kind of perspective and view of the world. 

05:21

For many people it only happens because of nature and nurture and for others, like a lot in the Western world here, like most Americans, you're born into the rat race. You're born into the go, go, go and then we go searching for it. And that is a very common theme that we believe. When we're born into this go, go world mentality we have to abandon it all, we have to leave it all behind, abandon the self and kind of go the other end of the spectrum here. Do you ever feel like in someone, your shoes, does the opposite hold true? You know you were born into this spiritual world where you know kind of that cool, calm, collected, center identity was the norm. Then do you see like because of the rise of Western culture, wanting to be more go, go, go and then also then having to abandon the spiritual self. Does the opposite hold true? 

06:17 - Ishan (Guest)

I think it depends upon your soul agenda. What is the purpose of your life agenda? What is the purpose of your life? So when I was in the monastery, I found a lot of people that would come to the monastery, who have renounced everything, who have been sick and tired from the world, who have been burned from the world. So they've had enough, so they're done so. For them renunciation makes sense. You've been through four marriages and now you've realized marriage is not for me. You've had a few businesses and then you realize it's not for you. So finally, you've come to your soul agenda that maybe my soul agenda is going inside. So they come and they, they need that thing. 

07:01

For me, my soul agenda was always I. I had this thought that we have so much knowledge, we have so much wisdom, who are we helping if we are in the middle of nowhere? And I had that desire. So you know, that desire was always there. And if I would not have acted upon my soul agenda, then I would have been stuck in this whole cycle of reincarnation because that thing is inside me and every day I thought that first it was just a whisper in my ear. You know, get out, do this, get out, do this. 

07:37

Then it started to become a noise and one day I just couldn't ignore it anymore that I have to. But thankfully, when I came out out, I already know my purpose. So it's not that everything that I'm doing, it's distracting because imagine if I have to go to Santa Monica up here, and I know I have to get there so I may see Ghirardelli's on my left, I may see some nice delicious street on my right. I'll smile, but I'll continue walking Because my purpose is more important than anything. And the same happens in the field of spirituality also, because nowadays, even in the spiritual field and I'm talking about even monks everybody has to deal with social media. And I can tell you about the Eastern theology, I sit and I work with all these monks and a lot of the monks have the same anxiety that Instagram influencing models do. 

08:40 - Chase (Host)

Wait, monks get anxiety Wait monks get anxiety. 

08:43 - Ishan (Guest)

Yes, because you have to understand it is social media is an addictive substance, it's like alcohol. 

08:51 - Chase (Host)

So you're saying even monks use social media and that's the source of this anxiety you're talking about. 

08:56 - Ishan (Guest)

The monks who are influencers. You know there are monks who are in the monastic whose sole agenda is just to meditate and be. But when you come into the world and you play with fire, then this is non-substance abuse. Instagram, facebook, all these social medias then of course the thought is there how many people are liking me, how many people are happy with me? And then if you don't have a center, if you don't have a spiritual practice, then it's very easy to bend to the will of the algorithm and then say what everybody wants to hear, or say what the algorithm rewards. And what you are saying is absolutely true that you leave that spirituality. You don't leave that spirituality. You leave that sacred place, that sacred place that is protected, that sacred place that doesn't have any disturbance, that sacred place that is like uh, you know, like like that movie wakanda uh-huh, yeah, in that protective bubble, yeah, yeah, the cloak you leave that force field then of course you will get affected by everything good and the bad the world has to offer. 

10:12

But that is where I feel two things really help me my attunement with my goal and my own spiritual practice. But if these two things shake up then it's so easy the goal to change from I want to help people or, second, I want more followers than that guy. 

10:33 - Chase (Host)

The example you were giving about your goal. Your purpose was to go to Santa Monica Pier and along the way you see some shiny objects, some delicious treats, and you know I would boil it down to distractions, but you have clarity in your purpose and that helps you navigate distractions and arrive at your destination in a timely manner, so to speak. Do you feel like people are more distracted because they don't have purpose, or they might have purpose but they're more interested in the distractions? They feel like there's more potential in the distractions along the way and therefore are willing to allow their purpose to be more malleable? 

11:20 - Ishan (Guest)

I think distractions are always there, but what are the standards you keep for yourself? I always believe in progress, not perfection. So there is a story. We go back to Buddha. There is a story where Buddha is trying to get enlightenment and he fasts, he does lots and lots of austere practices. He's not eating, he doesn't get up, he really punishes the body and he just becomes weaker and weaker. He goes to take a bath. He can't even get up, he almost drowns in the water. And he realized that he he messed up, he didn't need to go so hard. And how he realizes this is there's a guy who's playing a string instrument behind him. So when he's playing that instrument, first he tightens it too much and the instrument doesn't make the note. Then he loosens it too much and the instrument doesn't make the note. Then he loosens it too much. The instrument doesn't make the note. It has to be perfect. 

12:31

Only then, and then Buddha realized I don't need to push myself so much. You know, I need a balance. Now, when we are talking about distractions, either people want to live a life of austerity that. Either people want to live a life of austerity that, oh, I will only eat kale and quinoa and, you know, do a thousand burpees every day, or I will just let go. So if by mistake I have five French fries, then you know means just go for it. 

13:04

Then I can eat 20 double doubles and one shake and everything, because you know I I messed up it's, it's this all or nothing mentality precisely try to to put themselves in yeah, and and, and I think that's where we should have a practice of daily wins, where, if we are making progress and that's what I like to teach people that I'm working with, you know make a list of your daily wins. What did I do right? What am I grateful for and is there a progress from yesterday? And if I focus upon my daily wills, if I focus upon my progressions, then I'll be so happy with the things that I achieve that I will not get distracted. 

13:42

But if I'm pushing myself so much I'm miserable, then my body will look for anything that gives me joy. It's Sigmund Freud's pleasure principle that an organism will choose to walk in the shade. So if my life is miserable and the only joy I have is the six pack I open in the evening, then why not? So find that joy, find that balance, find your wins, teach your mind to understand gratitude, then automatically distractions will go away. But if you push your mind to run away from distractions, thousands years of history has taught us distractions always win. 

14:28 - Chase (Host)

It's like what's the? 

14:29 - Ishan (Guest)

phrase Don't think about an elephant? 

14:30 - Chase (Host)

What's the first thing you think about Elephant? Yeah, the more we try to focus on not being distracted, it becomes a distraction. Yes, it becomes a distraction. What a great kickoff, you know. Officially welcome to the show. So glad to have you here. I want to dive into some of your more current work. Um, congratulations on the new book coming out or out, and it's already bestseller amazing. 

14:52

Thank you, of course, without a doubt. And uh, in that book and a lot of your work you talk about, you know things we've already been mentioning here and that's getting into gratitude and, you know, not trying to force a state of being and reflecting on happiness, which, in my opinion, gets us into a much more present state of being, and in the presence really is infinity. That's the only place we ever actually are. We only currently exist in this moment. 

15:19

And you have this unique twist on immortality. You say, quote when I speak of immortality, I am not speaking of some mythical state, I'm speaking of an attitude, I'm speaking of a practice like we were just mentioning. I'm speaking of a wake up call. It is not about gaining more time, but about expanding your relationship with the time you have. So I pulled a couple quotes from I just researched some other. In my opinion, you know famous or you know other well-known yogis or people around this world of time and getting us to expand our consciousness or just rethink the word immortality. I'd love to kind of get your take on it from forgive me if I'm butchering the name here Paramahansa Yogananda. 

16:06

You are flawless, I'll take it All right. Quote you do not have to die to experience immortality. The soul never dies and you are that soul. How does that land on you? How would you kind of unpack that a little bit? 

16:24 - Ishan (Guest)

How would you kind of unpack that a little bit? So Eastern theology teaches that the body is a vessel and our consciousness is living through this body. Pain and suffering is when we start to think we are the body, and why it is pain and suffering? Because every joy that the body will get is a joy that will taken, will be taken away from the body. So we derive joy from our youth it will be taken away. We derive joy from our beauty it will be taken away. So if all my understanding of the self is the body, then death is my constant companion and loss and suffering are a daily reminder. 

17:14

So what the yogis did, what yoga means? Yoga means union, so union with a higher concept, union with the immortal self, union with the immortal self, union with the infinite self. So this body is the vessel. There is an infinite self, there is that consciousness that has existed long before the body existed and long after the body will perish. Anyone who merges through that state of yoga with that infinite self, we say he is enlightened, because now he is not bound by the laws of the third dimension. Now, when he is meditating, he is a cosmonaut, he can travel in space. He's a chrononaut. He can travel in time, he's a astronaut, he can go to these wonderful worlds, and I don't know what the inter-dimension traveler is called, but he's that also. And that's what these yogis can do. For hours they are sitting and we are surprised. They are sitting for hours, but in their head we don't know how much time has passed, because they are in that state of perfection, in that state of yoga, in that state of union. 

18:29

So that is what I think Yogananda Paramahansa is trying to say that overcome the body consciousness, and how beautiful it would be if we can. 

18:40 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, very beautiful response. I really enjoy that, thank you. Yeah, very beautiful response. I really enjoy that, thank you. If you find yourself chasing better sleep, want more energy and striving for a longer, healthier life, then listen up, because this might be the simplest upgrade you could ever make. 

18:53

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20:10 - Ishan (Guest)

So what I like about this is and Swami Vivekananda is awesome. He's the gentleman who I think I can single-handedly credit for bringing Eastern theology to the West, because in the 1800s he came into Chicago, the Conference of World Religions, and he gave these concepts to America and he was very well taken. So he's one of the OGs and we all look up to him. 

20:39 - Chase (Host)

The OG Yogi. 

20:41 - Ishan (Guest)

The OG. 

20:41 - Chase (Host)

Yogi. He put the OG in Yogi. Yes, sir, see, amazing. 

20:46 - Ishan (Guest)

That's a t-shirt right there. 

20:50 - Chase (Host)

I got dad jokes for days they are good jokes, it's not bad. Right, it's not bad it's pretty good. Dads are amazing the OG and Yogi. There we go. Og and Yogi. Yes, I got to trademark that before the episode goes live. Yes, sir. 

21:03 - Ishan (Guest)

I get some royalty, so this guy is very amazing. So, even if we always say, love thy neighbor as you love yourself, so loving thy neighbor is secondary. The first thing is love yourself. And when you love yourself, how can you love yourself if you don't know yourself? So Swami Vivekananda is saying that the first thing is that you know. You know yourself, you are aware of yourself because, as we were discussing that, we are just thrown in a rat race. We don't know our motivations, we don't know what we are, we don't have an instruction manual and we just have to go through life. And I I remember I was giving a talk somewhere. We were talking about um, workplace safety standards and we were discussing how there are some professions where there are strict safety standards. Like you, we go into construction. You have to wear a hard hat steel toe bootstoed boots. 

22:08 - Chase (Host)

Steel-toed boots precisely. 

22:09 - Ishan (Guest)

And then we were looking at statistics of burnout and we know that ER doctors they suffer from horrible rates of burnout, upwards of 70%. There are other professions where the burnout is so much more Now because this problem is psychological. There are no steel-toe boots and hard hats. But a construction worker may not have such horrible statistics as an ER doctor. But we are taking steps for the worker but not the doctor. 

22:44 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, where's the hard hat for the soul? Where's the steel-toe boot for the emotion? 

22:49 - Ishan (Guest)

Precisely, precisely. 

22:52 - Chase (Host)

Those protective barriers. 

22:54 - Ishan (Guest)

Exactly, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to deal with the emotions when they will come. There is no protocol for crisis management of the mind, protocol for crisis management of the mind. We know when the alarm will start or fire, then how we have to go, which are the exits and this and that, but we don't know when the heart will start to sound the alarm or the head will start to sound the alarm, and what usually people do is they break the alarm. Let it become disease. 

23:25

Let it become trauma. Let it become disease. Let it become trauma. Let it become substance abuse. We will deal with it one day. They procrastinate, and that's not life. 

23:37 - Chase (Host)

And in my opinion, what's even more unfortunate is people chalk it up to an acceptable norm. This is just a normal part of life. Oh, no wonder I'm sick, no wonder I'm unhappy, overweight, in financial ruin because of all you know. Insert ABC, excuse, excuse, excuse, legitimate or otherwise. But in my opinion that's the most unfortunate part is that we accept that as a norm. 

24:03 - Ishan (Guest)

Yeah, and if somebody is not stressed, we think they are not working hard. So, like if a child is stressed, the parent would be so happy. And this happens a lot in South Asian communities, where if a child is taking stress for his college, everybody is fine. If the child is chilling playing Xbox, the mother is so worried that oh my goodness he doesn't he's not grateful for the opportunities that he has been given. So that's what Swami Vivekananda is saying If you won't know yourself, your journey won't begin and you will always be looking here and there for answers. 

24:38

And if you don't know yourself, then somebody will tell you that this is life, and then you live that life, what you have been told to, and they'll promise you that if you live that life, you will get this, which is generally, generally peace, and you won't get peace. But the sad part is you missed your chance. So nobody deserves to miss their chance in life. So better to take out some time right now and know yourself and live the life that you need to live to reference, reference a stoic philosopher, a quote that I love. 

25:14 - Chase (Host)

Seneca talks about how we suffer far more in imagination than in reality. And to kind of get into suffering, you have three amazing areas around where you feel like a lot of us are in suffering today, the three biggest current forms of suffering. You say that quote. We are in a world suffering the effects of fear, competitiveness and anger, and I want to take this next section to encourage the audience member to take a step back and wrap your head around. 

25:42

Suffering is a pretty intense word. You might not think it if you take a quick glance at your life, like you know, I'm upright, I'm mobile, I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, you know, maybe let's just look at your basic human needs and if I think at least those are being met, I don't think a lot of people would say they're in suffering. But if we really break down fear, competitiveness and anger and we get very honest with how we go about our daily living, our profession, comparison, social media, I'd be willing to bet we all have a little bit of these three in us, and so I'd love to have you kind of walk us through why you think these are the three biggest areas of suffering right now for most people, starting with fear, and you say that you describe or excuse me, you describe fear as one of the core forces driving suffering today. Where do you think fear truly comes from and why is it so deeply rooted, especially in modern life? 

26:40 - Ishan (Guest)

So, even before we start talking about fear and we start talking about suffering, I'll give you an example of my life. I was with a few of my friends and we were doing archery. It was very nice, you know, like golf archery range, where you keep on walking with your bow and arrow and there are these 18 targets and you go to each of the target wait, there's archery golf. 

27:08 - Chase (Host)

I've never heard of it. 

27:10 - Ishan (Guest)

I want to do this. 

27:11 - Chase (Host)

This sounds amazing it was. 

27:12 - Ishan (Guest)

It is amazing. So, like you, it's a big, like a forest. Yeah, so this is down at the bay in bay area, near copatino, where it's a big, big mountain, and then you keep on walking in the trail and then somewhere you'll see a deer or somewhere you'll see a bird, and then you have to shoot it. It's fun. So we were doing this and there was an accident and a shard of a big piece of wood a shard. It went into my shoulder, but I was winning. I tried to pull the shard out. It was like a matchstick. I tried to pull it out and it didn't come out and I said, to hell with it, I'm winning. You know, let me finish the game, because if I lose then you know all the money we've bet and everything that's happening, all that I'm going for myself. I will lose it. So I'll finish. It's just three more shots. I have to keep on going and maybe it was the adrenaline or something. I didn't feel any pain, everything was fine. And then finally I shot, I won, I excited, I celebrated Like yay. 

28:23

And then finally, when I went in the car, I asked a gentleman so he's my boss, so I asked him to drive me to the er and he said why? 

28:33

Then? I showed him he's like oh, and while he's taking me to the er, when I relax is when I start to feel pain and it's miserable, it's burning and, and it's so much pain that I think I'll faint and I don't know how, suddenly all that pain, maybe it moved or something happened. What I'm trying to say is that resilience is our best friend and resilience can be an enemy as well. I see a lot of men who are bound by duty, who are so resilient and they have shards in their arms, emotional, they will never show it because they are strong, they are resilient and they will keep on doing their duty, duty, duty, till one day it just starts to burn. And when I went to the ER, the ER lady screamed at me so much because when she removed it she's like there's so much unnecessary damage because the thing moved everywhere and everything happened. And you know I was in pain and I was getting yelled at by the doctor. 

29:40 - Chase (Host)

There is no did you tell her, but I was winning, I was winning she didn't understand that. She didn't understand she said no, sir, you are losing right now but I won. 

29:49 - Ishan (Guest)

But see, that's the thing, that's the thing, and we are so resilient that there'll be fear, there'll be all these negative emotions, but we think that we are fine and because we are winning for something that we keep on ignoring till it becomes a huge problem and comes back to bite us in our gluteus maximus. And that's why I think men, resilient men, really need meditation, just so that they are aware of what's happening inside, because there's a reason it's called mental health, because it's the men who have the worst of it who suffer the brunt of so much of these things. If you look at substance abuse, you look at suicide, you look at depression, it's the men that are suffering in silence. Because we are so resilient, we are so duty bound and many times we don't know the shards that we just keep on taking and we just get used to it. Just keep on taking and we just get used to it. So I think meditation is extremely important to understand these emotions, to quantify them and then to see how it affects us. 

30:58

And then, coming back to the question, fear, I think fear, again, is a good emotion, again is a good emotion. If we look at Gavin De Becker's the Gift of Fear. I don't know if I am butchering the name now, but so many people that I work with, especially in law enforcement, they have always taught me or first responders or veterans that how important understanding and controlling the fear is in those situations, because it can guide you, it can become an intuition. But if fear gets perverted, then it becomes phobia and it becomes crippling, becomes phobia and it becomes crippling. Then, rather than it helping us make logical, controlled decisions, it it, it is something that is debilitating. 

31:56

So whenever we are doing meditation and this I try to teach everyone we are not trying to get rid of stress, we are not trying to get rid of fear. 

32:04

Because even when I come back to stress, a lot of the time people think in therapy or if you take pharmaceutical aid, we just switch off the part of the brain that creates stress. But we are not understanding that, yes, stress creates unnecessary trouble, but stress is so powerful and beautiful as well. When I went on a first date with my wife, physiologically I was in a state of stress. When I eat spicy food, I am in a state of stress when I eat spicy food. I am in a state of stress in the morning afterwards also but it is joy when I'll go to disneyland and my body will be thrown around in the roller coaster is stress and if I switch off that part of the brain chemically that feels stressed, then all that joy that also comes is gone. So meditation is not getting rid of fear or stress, but it's changing our relationship with these emotions and making sure these emotions don't get perverted and they can be utilized as how evolution intended them to be used, as how evolution intended them to be used. 

33:09 - Chase (Host)

I think people more so have a fear of fear, whether that's just because they don't like the look or feel of it for present reasons, or maybe it's like a past trigger response kind of thing. But I do really agree with your statement that really fear should be a tool, a situational dependent tool. It should not be something that we strive to avoid or strive to suppress. How do you think we can realistically develop a healthy relationship with fear and then get to the point of going? 

33:50

I recognize fear in my life. I'm going to use it as a tool rather than it use me, because I feel like right now, resilience is something that a lot of people are after and I do believe it is a very important tool, both physical and mental health. That's kind of like the premise of what I mean when I say ever forward. Living a life ever forward is developing physical and mental resilience, but it shouldn't be a way to develop a skill set to suppress. You have to learn how to, how to walk with it. So how can we realistically develop this relationship with fear and use it as a tool instead of just learning how to live away from it? 

34:28 - Ishan (Guest)

Breath, breath, breath, breath, awareness. So awareness is very powerful and it's a tool that every yogi uses. And one of the ways in which fear can be dealt with realistically is Start to become aware of your breath, start to focus on your breath. So, in every situation when there is fear coming, that fear is starting to affect your autonomous nervous system, it's starting to affect your heart rate, it's starting to affect your breath. And fear is when we don't have things in our hand. And at that time, if we start don't have things in our hand, and at that time, if we start to keep our breath in our hand, you'll see, you will start to gain power in that situation. So, something as simple as being aware of the three parts of breath Inhalation, exhalation, retention. 

35:27

So, inhalation becomes deep, focus on the retention, the space in between the breaths Exhale. So fear is still going on. I'm understanding and observing the fear, but my focus is on the breath and that breath will give me the power to hold on to, something Like when there is a storm. We are on the boat and a storm is coming. The boat is shaking. 

35:58

I need a railing to hold on to If there is no railing boat move, I dance in it like a pea in a plate. So breath becomes that railing. So the storm. Storm is there, but I'm holding on to it and then the storm subsides and I can become much more stable and I can look at the situation logically. So how to master fear? Start by mastering the breath. Breath awareness is the key. 

36:28 - Chase (Host)

What do you think is one area of modern life you think most people are suffering from are staying in daily fear around. That I don't want to make light of anybody's situation, but I'll just say is unnecessary. Just say is unnecessary, it would be. We're exacerbating this situation when it could be boiled down to just becoming more present, getting more in tune with our breath, and this daily fear could go away conformity. 

37:07 - Ishan (Guest)

When I grew up in the monastery in India, we have a lot of stray dogs. One dog starts barking, every dog barks, and the dog who is sitting under my manji manji is like bed. That dog has no reason only. But when everybody howl, this dog howls. And now I am sleeping and I have to wake up early morning at 4, but the dog, bloody dog, howls all the time. Why? Because some dog somewhere howls. Now because of social media. And we go back to your favorite philosopher, seneca. A lot of our suffering is imagination and there is so much how-how that comes to us from social media inside us that whenever there is fear or anger, then the algorithm rewards that because that is the post that gets the most click, but that we are not realizing this unnecessary how, how that we don't even know what's happening, we don't even understand why it's happening, but because we see 20 people, how, how? 

38:29 - Chase (Host)

then that rage outrage just comes out from inside us are you saying you feel a lot of people are afraid these days and they don't even really know why. 

38:42 - Ishan (Guest)

It's just because everybody else precisely, and if we can just for some time be in the present moment, you know, have an understanding that even your cell phones is nothing but a tool. I remember I met an aboriginal once in Australia. He was an old monk playing his didgeridoo, and this was somewhere in Uluru, in the center of Australia, and we just started to have a conversation because I really found him. He looked so mystical, so powerful, and he's speaking to me in broken English and or maybe it was his accent, I don't know, maybe it was my accent, but we were somehow being able to communicate with each other. 

39:27

And we struck a conversation on philosophy and he's telling me that, son see, man has a need and because of need there is an invention. So he shows me a tree, you know, and he says that if the tree is in the path, then you have a need, invention. So you invent an axe and you cut the tree. Now there is no need, but you still have invention. So you cut next with the same axe. So need and necessity creates invention. But if we don't put use to that invention, then that invention starts controlling us. 

40:07 - Chase (Host)

We lose sight of utility. 

40:09 - Ishan (Guest)

Precisely, and nowadays, a lot of the time, I see people being controlled by their gadgets and creating unnecessary fear, stress, body dysmorphia, anxiety. They don't need to do that. I really suggest that if people can start to practice, you know, like there is intermittent fasting, intermittent digital detox at least eight hours a day. Don't. Don't pick up your phone until and unless you need to use it as a phone and it doesn't count if you're asleep. 

40:41 - Chase (Host)

Sleep at eight hours at night doesn't count as the fast precisely. 

40:44 - Ishan (Guest)

yeah, yes, yes, you know people are always looking for loopholes, but yeah, during daytime, if you can have a few hours of that intermittent fasting, of digital detox, you'll find yourself so much more happier. And then if you can find a ways to program yourself of why you need your phone and what would be the purpose, then I think the unnecessary stresses and anxiety will go away because all the unnecessary how-hows will not reach us. 

41:12 - Chase (Host)

This kind of brings us right into the second area, competitiveness. As you're talking about this aspect of conformity, I think for most people, the opposite of conformity is competitiveness, instead of falling in line or being afraid because everyone else is afraid, or doing the same thing that everyone else is doing. I'm going to outwork them, I'm going to show them, I'm going to prove them right, prove them wrong. We get into this aspect of competitiveness and you actually talk about how, the harm caused by excessive competitiveness, how do we recognize when our drive for success then becomes self-destructive? How can we get out of this subconscious fear of competitiveness, maybe because of we're just trying not to fall into conformity? 

41:58 - Ishan (Guest)

so the yogi says there are seven chakras, from the top of the head to the base of the spine. When energy is moving from the top to the bottom, it can create, lead to creation, manifestation, and when energy is moving from the bottom to up, it will lead to dematerialization. And both are needed in life. You need to create, you need to dematerialize. So you work hard, you achieve and you renounce. That is the complete cycle, that is creation and that is dematerialization creation and destruction destruction a. 

42:48 - Chase (Host)

Is that too harsh of a word, harsh of a word Dematerialization is fancy schmancy. Okay. 

42:53 - Ishan (Guest)

We don't want it to sound harsh, but it is the truth that things come and, in the words of Princess Elsa from Frozen, we have to learn to let it go, the practice of detachment. 

43:09

Eventually. So achievement and then renunciation. If you don't have anything, what are you detaching with? So it's like you have to have something. And what happens is the yogi says we have all these drives, we even have a drive for competitiveness. There is a healthy competitiveness. For example, I used to love doing Muay Thai long ago and that made me competitive. But that is a very healthy competitiveness. But it is in the ring. If the competitiveness go out of the ring, that I will, you know, stab my opponent's car tires with a knife, then it is an unhealthy competitiveness. But during it being in the ring, it is. It is nice, it is strong. So the flow of energy has to happen. 

44:04

But what happens in life is if we have unresolved emotions, we have unresolved traumas, then that start to get stuck inside our flow of energy and become blockages. And wherever we hold those blockages is where our personality gets stuck. So if your personality gets stuck, let us say in the swadhishthan swadhishthan means taste, then pleasure. Then we are just going after pleasure, pleasure of body, pleasure of mouth, pleasure of ear, even if that pleasure is killing us, even if we are eating ourselves to death, even if we are just running after relationship after relationship but feeling hollow and guilty each time. But because the energy is stuck there, we will just go towards pleasure. Or if it is in the manipur, the navel, the energy gets stuck. Then the yogi says a person will just run after power. Power that becomes senseless, power that hurts other people, power that is competitiveness at all costs, then that is unhealthy. So we have to work on dissolving those blockages so there is a balance, there is a flow of energy. So it all comes back to knowing thyself and then working on thyself and then evolution of thyself. Because again, I will not say competitiveness is bad. It has a purpose, it has a need. Boys in school need to be taught a little bit to be competitive, to push themselves to be a better version of themselves, because then slowly it will go down. 

45:56

You have to understand how much of a desire you need. If you are a Buddha, you are sitting under a tree and you are trying to look for something that nobody has ever seen. If my desire is I want a Ferrari, it's easy, it's quantifiable that I have to go out there, I have to earn this much amount of money and then I don't know if you want to lease a Ferrari or whatnot. The goal is right there. But if you want to be a Buddha and your goal is enlightenment, then there is no balance sheet that these many days you meditate and you get enlightenment, irrespective of what some yoga studios in US do, that you know we'll enlighten you in $15,000. 

46:39

But in reality it doesn't happen like that. But you need a desire, a passion, to sit under the fire, to sit under the rain, to sit under the sun, to then get something. But if I just say to somebody, you know, get rid of that competitiveness, get rid of that passion and desire that man can never be a Buddha, that man can never do a spiritual practice, because spiritual practice is hard. Spiritual practice is doing the same thing over and over again and maybe not even getting a result, and then one day, boom, you get a lot of results. So passion is very important, but good passion, healthy passion that come from flow. So I feel when. 

47:23

I see people who are, you know, just running in their profession and being the top lawyer in their firm and I think to myself, if just few days that person can spend on meditation, then that man has more chance of being a Buddha than just somebody who goes to a yoga class once a week. 

47:46 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, it has to be something that someone wants to do and can come back to in some kind of regular manner. Right, for any realistic change, it all comes down to adherence, and you're saying that also applies to the spiritual aspect, right? So then what about anger? I think there might be a lot of people out there angry with themselves right now, angry at the world. Somebody did them dirty, they got passed over for promotion. They're struggling to see progress in the kitchen or in the gym and they're just angry that they're not getting the results that they want fast enough. What do you think is the spiritual root of anger and why do you? 

48:34 - Ishan (Guest)

believe. So many people carry unprocessed rage or resentment around with them today. Anger is all-consuming and anger is hard. 

48:51 - Chase (Host)

Anger is injustice. 

48:54 - Ishan (Guest)

When things that should not have happened have happened. Anger comes from hurt. There's a lot of pain, there's a lot of trauma. When there was a lot of trust, the more the innocence and the more the trust. And when it is broken, then it has the power to be that anger. And it's amazing in life how, the more we love someone, we try to protect them, we try to create a bubble around them. I'm telling my son that during Christmas Santa is coming, and I know it's a lie. But I'm telling the son, knowing that one day he will get to know. 

49:48

And he will be resentful towards me that why did I lie? I'm telling my daughter there's a truth fairy. And all these lies we tell to our kids just to give them that joy, to preserve that innocence. And one day there's going to be cognitive dissonance, preserve that innocence and one day there's going to be cognitive dissonance, bubble is going to be burst and suddenly the realities of life will be pushed on me and that's when I'll get bitter, that's when the anger will reveal itself. So the yogi says that at that time, at that time of crisis, what do you do? You let that anger consume you or do you utilize that anger for something better? 

50:38

because more anger, then that anger can become sorrow also, and it's the whole cycle that comes Very angry, and anger can become sorrow also. 

50:52

So the yogi calls it another form of yoga. So you know they say there is hot yoga, cold yoga in the west and all these funny, funny yogas. So in the East there is this thing called Vishad Yoga, and Vishad means yoga that comes from deep hurt. Deep hurt that suddenly there's cognitive dissonance. We go back to the story of Buddha. 

51:21

Buddha when he was born it was said that he will either be a great monk or a great king. So his father never wanted him to be a monk. So he put him inside the house and he gave him all the luxuries that a boy could desire. He never let him learn many things. He was just closed in a palace, a golden cage, so he didn't know anything. And then finally he got married, he got a kid and then one day he asked his father I want to go out and I want to see the palace, see the world beyond the palace. So the father said okay, go. 

51:57

So buddha got on a chariot and for the first time he's going out of the palace, seeing the world. And he's always been protected from the realities of the world, from from the harshness of the world, and when he goes out, he's always been protected from the realities of the world, from the harshness of the world, and when he goes out he's seeing the beauty of the world. And then suddenly he sees a man who is sick, who's crying of pain, who's fallen. And Buddha asks his charioteer what's wrong with that person? And the charioteer looks at the prince and said that's disease. 

52:28

And the second question Buddha has is can that happen to me? And the charioteer says yes yes it will happen to you. 

52:38

It's very normal, it's common, it happens. And then this is the result didn't know that disease exists and this and that. And then Buddha sees an old man and he has this question what is this? I've't know that disease exists and this and that. And then Buddha sees an old man and he has this question what is this? I've never seen that before. I've never seen a man bent with age. Is this also disease? Why does he have white hair? What is wrong with that person? And the charioteer says bro, that's old age, it's not a disease. 

53:07 - Chase (Host)

It happens to everyone. 

53:08 - Ishan (Guest)

Buddha is in a state of shock what old age meaning? And then he asked will my wife also be like that? Will my kid also be like? Will I be like that? And the charity must really be thinking. The prince has lost his marbles and he says, yes, it will happen to you, but the best scene that happens is then there is a possession that's going in which there's a man who's dead. They're taking the dead body and buddha says why is that man not moving? Why are his children crying? What's wrong with that man? 

53:45

And then buddha gets to know of death and he was siddharth. And then suddenly, when he gets to know all these truths about life, he gets utterly, truly, really depressed that what is the point of life? He gets angry that what is the point that if everything will be taken away, if all life doesn't matter, if I am a prince doesn't matter if he's a charity doesn't matter if he's a dog, doesn't matter if he's a cat, if we can't get away from old age, death and we can't get away from disease, then what is the point of my achievement? What is the meaning of life? And all these questions he had. And at that time, generally when a person gets so angry and depressed, then you know there are two paths that he can go on. One is the path of partying, you know, just drink and enjoy. 

54:35 - Chase (Host)

Screw it. What's the point? You know, might as well enjoy the ride. 

54:38 - Ishan (Guest)

Precisely. And then the other path is Vishad Yoga Never let a good crisis go to waste. This crisis is a gift that nature has given you. 

54:49

You were in a state of dream. Now is the opportunity to wake up. Nature has gifted you this pain to wake you up. So Buddha used this state of Vishad, this anger, this resentment, this pain and he went and he got enlightened. So when somebody is suffering, that Vishad yogis celebrate, they start to dance, they start to be happy for that person Because that person can finally wake up. Otherwise, you know, a person is so busy in their comfort, so happy in their mattresses. A person who has not achieved anything still has that thought that one day, when I'll be in that mansion, I'll be happy. But a person who's gone through everything, gone through the mansions, gone through this, and then finally realized in life that you know it's just pain and anger, Then that is the person. The yogi says use your vishad. If that pain has come in your life, use it to wake up. 

55:55 - Chase (Host)

So when I see an angry person. 

55:58 - Ishan (Guest)

I see a person in pain. I see an opportunity. 

56:05 - Chase (Host)

What a beautiful story. I didn't know that at length, that story of Buddha's origin story, really, and it kind of just makes me think about the bubble we all inevitably burst in life. You know, if you have a decent parent or parents, you know they are probably doing just that, Like I'm doing now with my son. I'm a, I'm a new dad and, uh, it's kind of by happenstance, I'm not consciously going, I have to make this force field around him, but you only want the best for them, and so you're trying to create this version of reality that is warm and fuzzy and safe and happy to some degree. But then, yeah, to your point, I'm probably going to tell him Santa Claus story, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy or whatever other cultural influence me or my wife want to bring in. And then it begs the question you know, when he does have this reality burst, is he going to be more angry? 

57:09

Are we more angry when our realities burst over the fact that I allowed this to happen? Like how could I have let this, just you know, happen in my life? How could I not have picked up on this? Or so it's more like anger with the self, or how dare they? And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck more with anger is they point the finger when their perception of a certain reality is is tainted, is ruined, that bubble is burst, the carpet is pulled out from underneath them. Is there a difference? When we have this, this, there's the moments the same right Reality changes. When we have this, the moment's the same, right Reality changes. Is there a difference in what should be the next step to processing that anger? If it is, I'm more angry with myself about this lie or perception and reality, versus I'm angry with this other person for kind of causing this reality shift. 

58:04 - Ishan (Guest)

We can never control anyone anyone, no matter who we are. I was so surprised when I came to the us, because in us everybody's open game you can say bad things about anyone, it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't happen in Southeast Asia. You can't say anything, you'll get whooped. And I used to think to myself that you know like people get so powerful, so rich and anybody can say anything to anyone. And then I realized it doesn't matter if you are the president of Americaica or if you are a bajillionaire. You can't control people. Yes, in southeast asia you can censor people, but still they will think of you what they will. They will say to you what they want. 

59:00

And what that tells us is that the yogis were right. The yogi said you cannot control any other person. The only thing you have in control is your own mind. So that just teaches us that we can't blame anyone for anything. Because then the yogis gave the whole concept of karma. That there is karma, there is the Sanchit. Karma means sum total of all your actions, and then whatever is happening to you is a seed that you triggered long ago. 

59:36

So it's just boomeranging now and if you react adversely to this boomerang, then it's a loop that will keep on happening. So if you react in the correct manner, or if you don't react, or if you ascend and you evolve, then the loop will break and you can break that karma. So it is redundant to be angry at anyone. It is just beneficial to be aware of your own thoughts and then to see how I choose to react in this moment, and I think that training is something which is extremely important in today's world because, as I said, no matter how rich and powerful you become, what I've learned in america is it doesn't change what people think of you yeah, to kind of wrap all three of these up in a little bow here of looking at fear, competitiveness and anger. 

01:00:36 - Chase (Host)

You talk about how these three are actually symptoms of a much deeper disconnection. So what do you think is one inner shift people have to take in order to break? 

01:00:58 - Ishan (Guest)

free from this really toxic cycle of living in a world where fear, anger, competitiveness just stay in control. One shift that they must take Give birth to hope, hope, hope for what? 

01:01:12

hope that there can be a life without fear, competitiveness and anger, dream. If I don't have a hope and dream, I won't work towards that. There are so many people right now listening to us, my friend, who think that how can there be life without competitiveness or how can there be a life without fear? They have been conditioned in such a manner that they are thinking this is it and they have figured it out. And then, coming back to your philosopher, seneca, cynicism comes from Seneca, cynics to life and and the first thing that the yogi is. 

01:01:52

A yogi is a poet, a yogi is a dreamer. A yogi paints a picture of what you can be if you walk a different path and then if he's able to convince you, then what you have is that hope. And that hope then becomes a whisper, till the whisper becomes a nagging voice, that now I must live this way and I must try another way in which there can be joy, happiness, peace. And that joy, happiness, peace cannot be 100 years from now. It has to be today. Life is now, I am now and I deserve to be happy. And that is the hope I feel if people bring, because even if I tell them meditation, if a person is hopeless he will never, meditate. 

01:02:45

Why he'll meditate? Because in his mind he's already cynic that, oh, these things don't work. You know better to forget. But if he has hope in himself, then he'll have little hope in me, little hope in you, little hope in this podcast, that maybe this podcast is what will be the straw that broke the camel's back and change my life and make me walk towards a road to happiness. Hope, I think Hope is good, hope is nice. Give yourself hope. Give yourself hope you deserve it. 

01:03:21 - Chase (Host)

You know I have to. Part of my role here in interviewing so many people like yourself is I'm constantly trying to put myself in the shoes of my audience, or even just you know past my own personal past life experiences and I have to imagine someone might be listening to you, looking at you, looking at your work and going. This guy came out of the gate, you know, was born into this, this way of life and by nature or nurture, circumstance or some kind of combination of, he has decided or feels like it is his purpose to to always be about it, to be on the path towards purpose and to have spirituality be such a core component of his daily living. That might not be the case for this person watching right now, but they can recognize the value in it, just like a lot of the other topics on the show of nutrition, healthy habits, physical activity, relationships, finances. You might not go all in on every area, but finding what works for you in each of these components is a very happy, cohesive life. You kind of find your rhythm. 

01:04:31

So for someone that is not trying to become the guru or go to an ashram or, you know, maybe not at your level of writing the book about it but feels like there is inherent value in adopting practices or just staying curious to the idea of introducing more opportunity for inner peace, meditation, breath, mindfulness. How would you encourage them to do that, to just make at the core of what we're talking about here, you know, mindfulness and the spiritual self more, to have a seat more at the table. How would you kind of encourage them to do that? And what are maybe a couple of practices they could do semi regularly to build that foundation, to build that new habit, to make it their you know, another part of their lifestyle? 

01:05:24 - Ishan (Guest)

A few things. Number one humanity never discovers anything, it just rediscovers. During the greek golden period, we had so much science and mathematics, and then the dark ages came and we lost and then finally, when we were readyenment, so many things were rediscovered. So much mathematics was rediscovered. In the same way, yoga is a science, and humanity when it was beautiful. Long time ago, civilizations were very advanced and they did things that even till today, we can't explain. Go to India. You'll find such magnificent structures, temples, that even today, with our engineering, we can't make. So you know, long ago, long ago, humanity was very capable and they had these sciences of the human mind which we lost. And today the time is to bring back these sciences, re-implement them. 

01:06:28

I never say that what I am teaching you is coming from my brain. I am standing at the shoulders of giants and what I have learned is from an unbroken, ancient, powerful lineage. And in today's world, the crisis is the mental health crisis. Because I am also the mental health researcher, I do a lot of work in the field of mental health. I study anxiety, I study depression, I study a lot of predicaments that young people are facing right now, and my goal is to try to find out ways that are non-pharmaceutical in nature, that are lifestyle-based, that can be bought into a person's life, because these are the ways that are low-cost to no-cost and these are the ways that are scalable. 

01:07:25

A lot of the people in america will not have access to pharmaceutical, will not have access to therapy, will not have access to all the frills. What about their mental health? What about mental health of the veteran who comes back from deployment? What about the mental health of the police officer who has to go through severe anxiety every single day? What about the mental health of the kid who goes to school in a place where there are not a lot of resources? And that is the time that these, these modalities can become really, really useful and powerful. 

01:08:03

Because when we did research on these modalities and this is one of the biggest researches that has happened in terms of participants and anybody can look at the research that are published under yoga of immortals research you just google and you'll find all the papers that have been published in in top psychiatric journals we have found that there is a huge deviation that happens if a person brings these practices in their life. It is not even a matter of belief. These things work on yourself. You bringing meditation-based tools, breath-based tools, visualization-based tools, yoga-based tools in your life will affect your mental health in a very positive manner. So it becomes a matter of why not? 

01:09:00

Why not you bring these things that are evidence-backed, that are backed by history, that are backed by people who are benefiting from it, and bring it in your life and educate yourself and your kids and your family, because these are good habits. These are good habits like good nutrition. These are good habits that we must adapt to. Just like, when I came to the West, I took your coffee. I like it, and if I can take your coffee to wake up in the morning, why can't you take my yoga to be happy in the middle of the day? 

01:09:38 - Chase (Host)

Touche. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just. Uh, these are the inconvenient truths, right? Especially, I think, in the West, we become become dependent on or relying on, or we just we feel like we need or we love, or it's become ingrained in our daily habits and rituals so much Do we even know why, but they're there and we believe that they work. And maybe they do. 

01:10:01

Believe is a very powerful tool If I believe that the surgery I'm going to have is going to get rid of all my pain. You know, the placebo effect is very powerful. There was a interesting in terms of ethics study, if you want to call it, years ago in Texas, this guy, this doctor, did just that. He took, I think, half of these patients who needed knee replacement surgery and he put them under anesthesia, gave them a little cut and they believe that they went through needed knee replacement surgery. And he put them under anesthesia, gave them a little cut and they believed that they went through a knee replacement surgery. And then he actually did knee replacement surgery on the other half the half that didn't get the surgery reported a higher positive outcome. 

01:10:40 - Ishan (Guest)

That means the yogi is right. 

01:10:42 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, it is the power of the mind. 

01:10:45

Yeah, so we just got to get a little uncomfortable, get out of our own routine and just entertain the idea of the mind. Yeah, so we just got to get a little uncomfortable and get out of our own routine and just entertain the idea of what if? And I'd be willing to bet too. I think, especially when we reach these points of anger, competitiveness, frustration, you know, we kind of eventually land to some level of desperation, some level of desperation of this can't be it, this can't be life. I can't go on feeling this way. Or there has to be a better way of life. There has to be a better way of living, of being happy, of, of, of everything. And so if you, even if you're not at that kind of desperation point, I think, staying curious to just entertaining other modalities like what do you have to lose? 

01:11:30 - Ishan (Guest)

oh, and also this is clean joy right, right yeah and clean joy, as in, if I want to there's no side effect yeah, if I want to get drunk right now, I'll have to deal with hangover. 

01:11:40

If I want to eat gira daily right now, I have to deal with high calories and you know my sugar level going up and down. Meditation and yoga is a clean joy. It is just joy, with precisely no side effects. You'll be happy, you'll feel better and I think everybody deserves to feel this joy once. Joy without having anything, you know, just sitting in a corner, going inside, focusing on your breath, closing your eyes, and you know, without the weed, without the alcohol, without anything. Our brain is so powerful and it can give us so many revelations. And I feel that this beauty needs to be a bit more democratic, because even in the Southeast Asia, people believe that this joy is called Satchitananda. 

01:12:37

Satchitananda means Ananda is like joy the great joy, and Satchita means from realization of the real self. You know, when you go in, it's the joy that comes from realization of the pure self. That joy it's only for the monks, and long ago I learned that from my father. He's the one who started teaching to random people, that from my father, he's the one who started teaching to random people, because this, these practices, were not accessible to a lot of people. And even right now, if you go to southeast asia, everybody has their do's and don'ts. Some will only teach men, some will only teach a certain group of people, and my father he democratized it. He's like doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter who you come from, doesn't matter which country great good for him. 

01:13:31

We need more men like him yeah, and and I I was very much influenced by him because I saw what he was doing and what he was able to achieve, and then I realized that Satchitanand can can be for everyone and you don't need to make such profound sacrifices to get that Satchitanand. You don't need to shave your head, you don't need to wear a certain type of clothes, you don't need to get away from everything. You can sit on Santa Monica beach right now in front of that ocean, do those practices and feel the same joy and bliss that a yogi in the Himalayas is meditating, and I think that is beautiful. 

01:14:21 - Chase (Host)

You don't have to give it all up to have it all. 

01:14:23 - Ishan (Guest)

That is a short idea. 

01:14:25 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, that's such an important takeaway, I think if we could just wrap our head around the idea of that, entertain the idea of that, get curious about that, because I do think. You know I always go back to a lot of health and fitness analogies on the show because that's, you know, my background in the in the core of what the show is is like a lot of physical practices. But I remember being in clinic and thinking, having a lot of patients go, I don't want to give this up. I don't want to give up my wine or like, oh like ice cream on birthdays. 

01:14:57

There's this belief, somehow, some way, we've wrapped our head around this belief that in order to have the life that we want means we have to surrender the life that we have. It takes some fine tuning and there's a value exchange here and a rearrangement of variables. But I think I always had the most excuse me, the most success with clients and I can personally tell you of years of manipulating my own variables. It's not about having to give everything up to seemingly get what I've always wanted. It's like we already have that. It's just what are we allowing in place of it? 

01:15:36

And the exact same is true here for the spiritual self. We don't need to go practice yoga 10 hours a day on a mountaintop to obtain enlightenment, but we do need to adopt some practices that are going to allow this, this aspect of living, way of living, into our life. If we just keep it blocked, then how are we ever going to have any semblance of it, Right? Yes, so well, I think it's a great way to kind of get into my last question, my last question, with you all around how can we package all this up and utilize it, give it utility to, to move us forward in life? Those two words ever forward, what do they mean to you and how would you kind of translate the mantra, the theme here, the show to live a life ever forward through kind of this, this spiritual lens maybe? 

01:16:28 - Ishan (Guest)

learn the lesson. For me, ever forward is learn the lesson. Learn the lesson, adapt, evolve if loop, so learn the lesson. Yoga helps us learn those lessons. It brings that stability in our mind, that balance, that awareness, that consciousness, that resilience, so we can learn the lesson on the go and adapt any ball, achieve and renounce, and we keep on going, going, going till we, till we reach that point on top of the hill where there now there's nowhere to go, and then we just sit and we are. We are giving back to society in the best way forward, and I think that is what, for me, is learn the lesson. That's why I don't think yoga is is final, it is way to the final, it's a tool it's a practice, right, it's a practice, and meditation is a practice, so we are using it to sharpen the sword. 

01:17:46

And why are we sharpening the sword? To raise our consciousness. Why are we raising the consciousness? So we can learn the lessons that life can give us. 

01:17:53 - Chase (Host)

We can teach ourselves what need to be taught, and then, one day give it back that's got to be the root cause of so much of our suffering. Right, as we miss, we missed the lesson or we're refusing the lesson. You know we don't want to take ownership of that because we probably had some kind of play in it. Well, there's never a right or wrong answer, I tell all my guests. So thank you for your interpretation of that. Yes, sir, where can my audience go to learn more about you, connect with your work? We'll have everything in the video description box and show notes. But if there there's like a one place to go deeper with you, where is that and what are they going to be doing with you there? 

01:18:28 - Ishan (Guest)

to a bookstore and buy the book, the practice of immortality. Inside that book I have shared my life story in a way, which the lessons I want to imbibe. You can get them. But more than anything inside that book are these meditation practices, because a lot of the times I read books on philosophy where they just talk about the benefits of that philosophy but never the practices. So what I did was all the evidence-backed research that I have done. I took those practices and I wrote them as Samadhi, which means like meditation practice after each chapter, and it is progressive in nature. So anybody who's interested in meditation, anybody who wants a deeper dive into the cognitive aspects of yoga and meditation, you read that book and you practice. So by end of the last chapter you have a practice that you can continue within your life and even if it's the last practice you'll ever learn. It's enough, and that was my goal. 

01:19:35 - Chase (Host)

It's a good one to end on. 

01:19:37 - Ishan (Guest)

Yes, and if they want more then of course, but for many people this is enough. So I would really recommend people who are wanting a broader understanding and just a fun read I made it as fun as I could. The Practice of Immortality. 

01:19:57 - Chase (Host)

Amazing. Well, thank you again for coming on the show and you guys definitely got to check out the book Link for you down in the show notes and did you do an audio book by chance? 

01:20:06 - Ishan (Guest)

Yes, sir, I did. 

01:20:08 - Chase (Host)

Amazing. Okay, so we got a great partnership with audible. If you guys want to check out an audio book version, you can just go to audible trialcom. Slash ever forward. Just register with a different email address. You can get a free trial, get the book for free, go from there. I love having the hard copy and listening. Did you, did you read the audible version? Amazing, I love listening to the author do it. So it's just my favorite way to retain information is the hard copy. Listen to it, just go back and forth it, just it. It sticks, yeah, so, and also, who doesn't love a free book? So check it out. Thank you so much For more information on everything you just heard. Make sure to check this episode show notes notes or head to everforwardradiocom.