EFR 820: How to Build an Effective Relationship With Your Therapist, Trauma Treatment Models, and How Sound Therapy Works with Malorie Lindqvist

00:00 - Chase (Host) The following is an Operation Podcast production.

00:03 - Malorie (Guest) Did not have that much time to adapt and that was a big part of the work is re-identifying with self and integrating the self, connecting with authenticity, and that is a delicate dance with people that are still very in the active duty mindset. That is how you do it is you really are curious enough to look into a person and to want to know their experience. And when somebody feels truly felt, that's much more powerful than them having had the same exact experience because it's unlikely that we're going to share the same exact experience with anybody. And it takes you out of the past because I'm asking you what's happening right now and the more we can bring it to this moment, the more we're accessing a more organized, coherent brain. The healing is really in the overtones of sound. It's not the strike of an instrument that creates a specific frequency or you know, there's a lot of research with cancer and it kind of exploding cancer cells using frequency.

01:03 hi, my name is Mallory Lindquist, licensed clinical social worker and certified sound healer, and this is Ever Forward Radio.

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02:39 I'm going to keep my intro a little brief today, but I do want to highlight some amazing accolades for today's guest, mallory Lindquist. Mallory is a licensed clinical social worker and integrative psychotherapist and certified sound healer with expertise in treating complex trauma as well as in therapeutic group work. And what is new to me here? You're going to learn more about this in the episode Narm. As a neuroaffective relational model therapist, she is trained in working with people who have experienced developmental trauma and even complex PTSD. And as a psychotherapist with 13 plus years of experience, her offerings are rooted in trauma-informed practices from both Western and Eastern theories of healing and transformation. She's bringing her experience, her wisdom, to the world through this incredible new offer, this new experience called WithinScape, and she created this with the intention to offer another path to healing through embodied connection and community.

03:39 So join us today for a truly enlightening and eye-opening discussion into the world of mental health and different therapy modalities, on the importance of authenticity in therapy and the critical role of trust and self-disclosure between therapists and clients, regardless of the modality. And if you've ever been curious about sound therapy, attending a sound bath. This episode is for you. She's gonna be describing why sound actually has therapeutic benefits, particularly in engaging the parasympathetic nervous system to enhance overall well-being, when done right and by a professional. Mallory sat down with me in studio. If you want to check out the video, you can always find it at everforwardradiocom, linked for you in the show notes, or head over to YouTube search Ever Forward Radio. Make sure to subscribe to the channel. Your support really really does a lot here.

04:29 Helps us grow, helps us help more people live a life ever forward and keep attracting even more amazing guests. Thank you, mallory. Thank you for tuning in today. Welcome to the show.

04:41 - Malorie (Guest) Having worked with many different demographics, I started in Austin.

04:46 That's where I did my graduate program at UT Austin, and then I stayed there for about seven years working in inpatient psychiatric units with kids and teens. And then I worked in some residential treatment centers there and then I had opened a private practice where I was just seeing people individually, and so I was a bit of a workhorse at that time and just really so devoted to the work. And then I just got the call to move home. I wanted to come back to San Diego where my entire family is, and I knew that it meant letting go of this whole network that I had established in Austin and something in me just said like you weren't growing anymore as a provider. I was kind of in this space of just the routine of doing the thing and doing, of course, really honorable work, but feeling this call towards working with the military, and so I essentially quit all my jobs, packed up my stuff, moved home and started over, and it meant getting my license again. I had to go through the test for California license.

05:57 - Chase (Host) That's right. State by state it varies yes.

05:59 - Malorie (Guest) So that was the whole thing and then eventually I got through the security clearance, which was like a nine month process to get into Camp Pendleton, and I got in and it was really the most gratifying work that I've done and it was so meaningful to just be part of an organization that was so different from me. You know, I walked in and everybody looked at me like I was this hippie, you know like this alien person that they just could not relate to in any capacity.

06:29 And I came up to like a lot of friction with the employees because a lot of people that were working in that facility they had prior service experience and so you know that's why they're there. They're passionate about that work and so it was a lot of growing pains, but all of it was quite fun and what I loved was just working with trauma. I really feel really passionate about working with trauma and specifically that population with active duty military and veterans as well. But active duty is a special breed. It is yeah. It is, yeah, it is.

07:07 - Chase (Host) And someone that spent six years in active duty. I was in Fort Sam Houston, I was in Lackland Air Force Base for a little bit, then Fort Sam Houston, and then I was in the Warrior Transition Unit out of Brook Army Medical Center for about a year and a half and I was medically retired in 2009.

07:21 - Malorie (Guest) It's so fascinating that too and just transition is is not generally treated delicately in the military. No it needs so much more time and work, and I mean the population that I was working with. It was for mental health reasons and substance abuse as well, but this I was always with people just before they kind of pushed them out.

07:46 And that period would be so small and so they just did not have that much time to adapt, and that was a big part of the work is re-identifying with self and integrating the self, connecting with authenticity, and that is a delicate dance with people that are still very in the active duty mindset, you know.

08:07 - Chase (Host) Why that call for you? Why going to work with active duty soldiers or, in your case, these were Marines?

08:14 - Malorie (Guest) right.

08:15 - Chase (Host) And that was Navy too, and Navy right yeah. So why working with active duty service members?

08:32 - Malorie (Guest) I wanted to be, in an environment where the threat response was still being activated, and part of that is because the system itself is triggering to people that have experienced trauma and it's hard to find somebody that has a military experience that doesn't have some experience of trauma in their lifetime. Often that's what pulls them into that environment, is seeking that brotherhood, sisterhood even, and so I wanted to just be amongst it and to just have that real time experience and I don't know. There's a part of me that, even as you asked me, that I'm not even 100% sure. That's why I say it was like a calling. It's like this is the next thing.

09:19 Most of the things in my life have been this kind of sacral intuition that comes up like a pull it's a pull that I'm just like following and I don't always know why, and then I get there and I'm like, oh yes, this is why and it's such a profound experience to have that I did a ayahuasca ceremony actually, how long was it?

09:42 A year and a half ago, maybe a year and a half ago, maybe a year and a half ago and it was so fascinating because when the shaman was describing her experience of me, she said you have the same template as a soldier you feel very defensed in your body and your energy, you feel like you have layers of protection around you. And it was probably the most validating thing that I've heard, even though I didn't really look at myself like that. I feel very open hearted and you know, yeah, just open hearted. But when she said that it felt like this parallel to my experience of really feeling such an attunement and a bond with the people that I worked with, that was just, it was just the most powerful thing.

10:30 - Chase (Host) Did you ever encounter that experience working with someone who you know maybe hopefully didn't throw that back in your face, but did you ever feel like there was some kind of hill that needed to be taken in order to get on that common ground, Because on their side of it, like, like you can't relate, kind of thing?

10:47 - Malorie (Guest) Yes, that was a big theme that came up and it manifested in different ways. It would be really funny, you know, I'd have these moments where, cause there was men and women that I would work with and it would, there'd be a lot of push away in the dynamic of you know, there wasn't trust established, which of course that makes sense to me you have to build trust with any person that you're working with but the way that they would go about the push away was funny. But then you get into that space, that container, where it's just human to human, and there's something that's happening in the nervous system. There is this co-regulation that's happening that is establishing a sense of safety. They are borrowing my nervous system to activate essentially, the parasympathetic state and so, in that, that is our point of connection, it is a social engagement center, and so that sort of nervous system regulation and connection trumps any of those stories and it's a really powerful embodied experience of felt sense of safety.

11:59 And so it starts to change the narrative. You know, organically it changes the narrative without so much efforting, in the mind of like, okay, there's this woman here that's showing up every day, she seems like she cares, like none of that really matters. What matters more is the nervous systems and how they're communicating with each other, and so I found that, yes, those moments came up where there was a dismissal or a rejection or a push away, and we always got to a place of connection. I didn't have a single patient that I worked with where we didn't get there.

12:36 - Chase (Host) What was your process? Was it just a matter of time or did you have a particular protocol? How did you get there with everyone?

12:42 - Malorie (Guest) That's such a great question that I've never really thought about. I think it's being a human. You know, I think in the world of therapy there's a lot of pressure to be a bit of like an avatar that says and does the right things. And for me I just am myself and I just want to embody authenticity, because it's a very powerful experience that is contagious and that amplifies authenticity in others. So I find that the more authentic that I was and the more grounded in my own nervous system, the more we could establish the safety and trust that allowed a person to choose self-disclosure over defense. And so I don't know how to teach somebody to do that, other than to say, like, be you, be a human, and that invites that in others. And it would be this really lovely experience because we'd move through.

13:45 You know, I did this intensive outpatient program where it was an eight-week cycle where I would work with a group and I'd be able to work with everybody individually and then we'd work in a process group format together in the cohort and then we'd have a psychoeducation group a couple of times a week. So it was like two process groups, two psychoed, one individual. So I spent a lot of time with these people and in these different contexts, which was really powerful just to see a person in different contexts and how they show up, for them to see me in different contexts and it's really relational. It's a very relational, dependent situation and by the end of it you know they would talk about. It was such a common thing to talk about me as the ninja like the ninja that would just like get in there.

14:33 - Chase (Host) You know, like I don't know, no matter the format, she was there.

14:37 - Malorie (Guest) And essentially, what they're saying is that they felt seen, and that that is how you do it Is. You really are curious enough to look into a person and to want to know their experience, and when somebody feels truly felt, that's much more powerful than them having had the same exact experience, because it's unlikely that we're going to share the same exact experience with anybody.

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18:18 Yeah, and sometimes it can be profoundly moving to feel felt by somebody that hasn't sat in your shoes.

18:21 - Malorie (Guest) How so? Well, one of the things that I was really passionate about in that program there was I believed this ruffled a lot of feathers, but I believed that we needed to integrate trauma groups, types of trauma, as they would say a trauma focused group rather than a combat related trauma group and a sexual trauma group, to blend the two and to have men and women men that have seen combat with and some women with primarily women and some men that had experienced sexual trauma, and to put them in the same group.

19:03 There's a lot of stuff that is not relatable, and a lot of the things that were not relatable were stories shared by two men that had experienced combat. The essence of their traumas were vastly different and it was really a powerful experience for somebody to just hold space for another person, for the group to hold space, and you know it's, it's, it's, of course, it's pleasant to feel that empathy and really I really relate with that and I've been there, I see you, and another version of that is there, I see you. And another version of that is I have no idea what that is like, but feeling that now with you, it pains me to know you've gone through that and it weighs so heavy on me and I just care for you.

19:58 That is a very profound experience too, and I think that's what was so powerful in those groups, that I was so really privileged to be in is sitting amongst men and women sharing their stories and them learning that the impact of trauma and how it affects them in their daily life. The symptoms feel quite similar. The stories might be different, the actual traumatic events might be different, but the challenges that they're having in just getting through the day is really relatable, and so building this support network where they're helping each other navigate through the trauma I mean it just. It couldn't have been a more beautiful process. Despite the fact that these people are really suffering. It was also really beautiful to bear witness to it all.

20:57 - Chase (Host) You said earlier, self-disclosure. I think that's a really key point in any therapeutic experience, whether we're soldier, civilian, whatever. But also as the therapist and the one receiving the therapy. I think that's where a lot of people struggle in terms of adherence is not feeling there's this kind of mutual level of self-disclosure so that they feel safe, they feel like they can really maybe not immediately put their guard down, but I can see myself putting some walls down with you down the road. How would you advise someone who is maybe in that experience of I don't know if my therapist is the one, I don't know if I feel like I can get there in this kind of therapy environment? How can we get to this level of self-disclosure so that the work really can get done?

21:46 - Malorie (Guest) Well, it's exactly that. It is sharing those questions, sharing that curiosity of I'm not sure what there feels like. There's a bit of a barrier here, I'm not sure what's getting in the way of this. Right now I'm feeling a bit of distance or, you know, closed off energy from you as the client to express these things, what's coming up in the moment in the relationship, because it is a relational container and it's meant to be. I mean, that's how we grow. Part of how we grow is, you know, especially with trauma. It's in kind of spreading the trauma load in our body, being able to build capacity for about trauma.

22:33 This is just therapy in general. But if we don't have that relationship on like a safety level, then it is really hard to have any sort of impact in our life. And so if you're motivated for the work, then sharing that and doing the work to get there, of course you can just say, well, this person maybe isn't a good fit and I'm going to try somebody else. Or there's an invitation there to explore what's actually happening in this dynamic, what's coming up in me and what's coming up in you, and is this something that we can work through, because maybe this is really a pattern in my world. Maybe this like oh, I don't know if I can trust this person is really a bit of a strategy for myself to avoid the intimacy.

23:32 - Chase (Host) Is there maybe a litmus test or a couple of questions, or a question we could ask ourself so that we can maybe get to some radical honesty about that and know, all right, it's just me telling myself some kind of story, or you know, I'm picking a, repeating a pattern, or is there actually some significance to you know me not moving forward?

23:52 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, I think the question that I always come back to is how am I relating to myself in this moment, as I'm in this dynamic with this person? What, what am I telling myself? What's coming up for me around this relationship? And getting curious and that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to like find the answer, but it's that inquiry that we're looking at.

24:20 - Chase (Host) I mean like what is the feeling, what is the emotion, what is the memory, or just it's just kind of that open-ended. What is happening when?

24:29 - Malorie (Guest) it's very present oriented. So what's happening now for me, in this moment, when I'm sitting across from my therapist and I'm noticing like oh, I don't know if she's really, you know, caring, or I don't know if she's a good fit for me or whatever. The wonder is, it's turning it inward, and how am I relating to myself right now? What is coming up for me as I'm sitting here? Okay, well, maybe I'm judging myself in this, maybe I'm judging my ability to connect with her.

25:11 - Chase (Host) That sounds like taking a lot of ownership in that situation where I think a lot of people might just have the expectation that my therapist because of their credentials or past history or recommendation or maybe because of X amount of experiences or sessions we've had they should just be, they should be at this level, they should know, they should be able to kind of pull these things out of me.

25:34 but there is a significant level of ownership and radical responsibility that we have to call upon ourselves no to in order for that relationship to be able to happen much less flourish.

25:45 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, there's in NARM the model that I'm trained in, neuroaffective relational model a big pillar is this idea of agency and it's exactly what you're speaking to.

25:59 A lot of the inquiry is around kind of cultivating some agency in our language and how we relate to ourselves, and it's very different from self-blame.

26:10 It's not about saying this is fault, oh, it's my fault that you know we're not connecting. It's more looking at is there something that I'm doing that is getting in the way of this? And then often these patterns, we can see the way that they play out in other relationships or in other dynamics and how we might really want something for ourselves and be actively getting in the way of obtaining it, because we are really motivated to kind of protect our survival strategies because they served us, they kept us alive, yeah, in many different contexts, these strategies that we use that are kind of outdated and that aren't serving us now in present moment, at some point they were very functional for us. So it is about having agency and that can be a really kind of freeing experience to say, wow, like I'm doing this thing again. Freeing experience to say wow, like I'm doing this thing again and being curious about it, without judging it as what you should be doing different, but just really developing the relationship with it.

27:15 - Chase (Host) You've mentioned motivation a couple of times and I think some people might hear that and go well, that's why I'm in therapy, because you know I'm trying to get motivated about this stuff. Or I'm in therapy because my willingness to my mental health lacks motivation, so I need this kind of professional help and guidance and accountability. What role does motivation play in the therapy world and how can we develop it even when we feel like we lack it?

27:42 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, so good. Well, I think we start out a bit at a deficit there with that right, when we have this goal to just be motivated, because that's not really granular enough for us, because we really want to look at, well, what would that look like? What exactly am I aiming to feel? What state of being am I looking for? How would I know that I was motivated? And getting really kind of sit in this disempowered place of, well, I just am not motivated, and the motivation is really kind of the story that we tell ourselves to get to, ultimately, what we really want, and so, as the person sitting on the other side, I want to know more. So what is it that you think motivation is going to bring you?

28:46 - Chase (Host) Oh, I like that yeah.

28:50 - Malorie (Guest) Which is I mean you could spend a lot of time just with that. You could spend a whole session just looking at what state we're really trying to access.

29:01 - Chase (Host) Since I started back in therapy. It's been like it's like five months now since really beginning of the year and I've kind of caught myself going or you know, talking about it with my wife or a friend and like you know, so, how's therapy going, or what are you, you know, you liking, and sometimes it's like oh, breakthrough, amazing, like super cool. Other times it's you know, I guess you know I did the thing, but I'm very, I'm very excited about my level of motivation to stay adherent. I'm definitely committed to just putting in the reps, because I know this is something that I haven't had consistent reps with. So it makes me think about how I guess really a level of motivation I wasn't fully aware of that I had to this type of work, not necessarily motivation of finding answers or healing or being healed or putting the past behind me, whatever the thing is that I'm there to talk about but just how important motivation is to just do this kind of thing.

30:02 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, and what is it that it is offering you? What keeps you going?

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31:26 Serenity Gummies by Cured Nutrition. Use code EVER4 to check out to save 20%, linked for you as always in the show notes today under episode resources. But try the Serenity Gummies or any one of their other amazing CBD, functional mushroom and adaptogen products. Code EVER4 to check out to save 20% each and every time. No-transcript. They might be benefiting other forms of my well-being right now. They could be negative, they could be counterproductive to this other work that I'm doing and this other work that I'm doing. My mental health this year has really needed to be the biggest priority.

32:32 And you know. So my physical health has needed to kind of take a back seat. And so certain things. For example, I have a cold punch at home and my therapist due to the severity and frequency of these panic attacks and old PTSD triggers, she was like actually, while the cold plunge might be great for a lot of other health benefits, right now it's very counterproductive to the work that we're doing and we don't want you in that heightened sympathetic state.

32:58 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, it is nice to have a bit of a co-pilot in the process you know, because you can be well-intentioned and oh well, I hear all these things are good for my health and for some people, people in a certain moment of their life. Yes, it absolutely can be, and that makes so much sense, especially when we think about the nervous system and spending more time in that parasympathetic state. And you know, I love that you can be flexible around it, because I think it's hard to be flexible, sometimes.

33:30 - Chase (Host) It's. It's not a no, it's just a not right now. Yeah.

33:33 And that's so much more comforting, especially in our mental health journey, because it doesn't feel as defining or as limiting. You know, and I think that's where a lot of people might struggle in mental health and getting consistent mental health help is that it feels like a lot of times, things are just yes, no, yes, no, like you can't do this, if, if, in order for this to happen, or you have to do this in order for that to happen, but it's it's a much bigger picture happening.

33:59 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, a hundred percent, and there's there's a lot of agency in that choice too, right Of honoring the thing that you ultimately want for yourself and choosing what is going to support that process.

34:12 - Chase (Host) I want to get more into your work in NARM, your specialty in NARM, neuroaffective relational model. But first you have I think I found this on your website, kind of in your about section, quote you have an unwavering interest in the human experience and the profound effect of trauma. So my question for you from that, do you think is the human experience and the profound effect of trauma? So my question for you from that, do you think is the human experience a traumatic one in just in nature?

34:38 - Malorie (Guest) I think it's pretty hard to get through life unscathed. There's so many unpredictable variables that can happen and our experience of impact is really unique unto us, but especially, you know, when I think about just life on this earth, in our own family system transgenerational trauma and that we are kind of sometimes we're parented by people that were also not parented by others, that kind of had all the best resources at their exposure and have their own traumas that they dealt with, and so it's very contagious, and then we have all this social impact that we experience. So I think life is beautiful and it is kind of hard too, and that it's common to have these little T's and big T traumas in our world. And it isn't a bad thing really. It can feel quite bad, but there's so much that comes out of it. There's so much shaping of who we are and there's so much shaping of our values in our experiences, and so, yeah, life is a traumatic one and it's one that allows us to really she says with a smile yeah, I know.

36:04 But I really believe that because it's like you know, I've experienced a lot of trauma in my life and I'm still here. None of it's. Like you know, I've experienced a lot of trauma in my life and I'm still here. None of it's broken me. It's been hard in moments and it's made me so strong, and each experience of trauma or of emotional impact it has given me another layer of empathy that I didn't have before, and that is a really beautiful thing, because I think, ultimately, what I want in life is to be as close to the human experience as possible and to really dive into the deep end and feel, to feel things and to feel with people. And so, yeah, it's hard and beautiful and I love it.

36:53 - Chase (Host) So in in this journey of life of yours and helping other people in therapy, um, you specialize in neuroaffective relational model, this NARM concept you're talking about. Can you kind of go a little bit deeper for us there? What is the NARM model? What is this approach to therapy? How is it unique and how do you feel maybe it helps people in unique ways where traditional modalities might not?

37:17 - Malorie (Guest) NARM is such a beautiful and also kind of still a young model. It hasn't really been around that long. When you think about some of these other models, like for example at kent pendleton, like the gold standard there is cbt which cognitive behavioral therapy?

37:35 yeah which is fine. A lot of models have roots in that, but it's uh, by itself it's a little bit outdated when we think about treatment. But what's been really lovely about norm is that it's you. It's a very humanizing model, so the practice of it is not really manualized, it's more. You know there's some talk therapy elements in it, but there's also a lot of nervous system in it, and the thing that's really different in my experience of it is the way that you actually are having sessions, and when I went through my training I was like, oh my God, I have been doing this wrong for a decade. Like the way that we do it is so different. And it's not what is being taught in school, it's not being taught in any sort of higher education, and yet the experience of it is so profound. And so what's really different is that it is state oriented, kind of like what I was just talking about. We're looking at what a person most wants for themselves in a desired state as opposed to changing a behavior.

38:57 That is really different, because most people come to therapy saying you know, I have anger issues and I want to be better at managing this, I'm having flashbacks and I want to be able to calm myself down and regulate, or I'm having relationship issues. Whatever the case, a lot of it is oriented towards changing behaviors, and that's not what this is. This is a model that is really focused on complex PTSD, which is, you know, developmental trauma, relational trauma. A lot of it has to do with those formative years of childhood, but it can also be from kind of social impact and trauma related to gender or race and things that affect our identity, that affect the way we relate to ourselves, and so when you're in the NARM experience, we are spending a lot less time focusing on the things that are disorganized, the things that we don't like about ourselves, the things that we want to change, and we turn a little bit more attention to what is organized and what is coherent.

40:11 - Chase (Host) It's a lot of work around identity, it's a lot of work around relationship with self, relationship with others, and that does seem pretty contrary to what a lot of people might be going to therapy for, or this expectation of what air quote here needs to be wrong with you in order to go to therapy and get it fixed.

40:32 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, and if you were to like witness a NARM session, for example, it wouldn't necessarily even like look that profound, but the actual experience of it is. It's a very embodied model. So it's, you know, got the kind of traditional talk therapy element, but it integrates the you know nervous system and the embodiment, so kind of like I'm not familiar with somatic experiencing, so in the process there's a lot of shifts in the physiological your actual physical state?

41:07 Yes, and it's subtle and it's really exploring what is happening when I shift from expansion to contraction, connection to disconnection. We are all wired for connection. That's our first core need that we have. And there is also a dance of expansion and contraction. That is as natural as an inhale and exhale, and it's the judging of the disconnection that is part of the problem, because that is natural. Everything in life does this dance, and so, yeah, it's fascinating how we can look at when I get to a space of connection, something happens and I go to disconnect. Maybe I start belittling myself and then I disconnect and we see how we've developed these strategies to survive in our childhood. But they also get in the way of what we want for ourselves. And so NARM is not siding with either piece. We're not saying, oh, I'm a cheerleader for being in a state of connection. Of course that's the ultimate need that we all have, but it isn't the goal. It's navigating the dance of expansion, contraction.

42:29 It's navigating the dance of expansion, contraction, disconnection and connection, and so it's tracking these psychobiological shifts as they come up in the moment and how that relates to our own relationship with ourselves.

42:43 - Chase (Host) So is NARM therapy then? Is there a set protocol for it, or is it more just the type of therapy that happens in each session? By protocol I mean, yes, we're going to run NARM sessions for 90 days, for six months, and then there's like an evaluation, or what does it really look like, and how is it so different, you know, in terms of protocols?

43:05 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, it doesn't have a protocol like other models and it doesn't have a timeline that you're working with. If NARM is working, you know if we're doing the thing, then people generally can spend a lot less time in therapy.

43:23 - Chase (Host) Really. I'm sure some people are perked up to hear that. Yes, there's some people perked up to hear that.

43:27 - Malorie (Guest) Yes, it's not even you know what's. Another little fun fact which will perk people up is, you know, a big piece of going into therapy, especially with trauma work, is telling your story right, and in NARM, because it's so present-oriented, we don't necessarily need to hear the details of a person's story to do the work Really.

43:54 - Chase (Host) Yeah, it's not needing to go back layer after layer after layer after layer to get to some root cause. That is the reason, or potential reason, for the present moment again. Air quote problem.

44:06 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, no, wow, okay. And that is a really big shift Because you know I've spent a lot of time as a therapist. You know, at this point now it's been 13 years and a lot of time spent in validating the child in a person, validating the experience and not realizing that in that, you know, good intention strategy, I am reinforcing a child consciousness that is keeping some of these things alive.

44:41 - Chase (Host) Wow, I've never heard this before.

44:45 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, it's the magic of norm, as we say in our little community.

44:49 Wow, it's the magic of NARM as we say in our little community, wow, yeah. And so we are engaging with the nervous system and we are engaging with the adult consciousness and there's specific things that we might do in the process, depending on where a person's at, if they start to shift into, like a more child consciousness, that might help them to organize. I'll call upon somebody's organization by asking a question like you know, what are you noticing in your experience of yourself right now? How are you relating to yourself right now, which calls upon a bit more of you know, the higher brain to take a second.

45:39 Yeah, like okay and it takes you out of the past, because I'm asking you what's happening right now and the more we can bring it to this moment, the more we're accessing a more organized, coherent brain that can actually integrate these experiences. And sometimes little anecdotal pieces come in.

46:01 It's not like you can't talk about your stories. It's more about how kind of like who's driving the car you know like from what state are we talking about these things? And if we're talking about our story from a state of child consciousness, then it's that reinforcement that we don't necessarily want.

46:20 - Chase (Host) That's very intriguing, like I said, but I can just imagine how powerful it is, especially for certain people navigating certain mental health issues.

46:32 Severe trauma, ptsd really come to life for me, because that's kind of the toughest part about all that is, you want to work through these things, but in order to work through them means revisiting them, and revisiting them is what is most uncomfortable for us, it is the most painful, yeah, and so it's this kind of like I want. It's this kind of like I want it, but I don't. I want it but I don't.

46:52 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, and that's. That is the beautiful dance too, of like, yes, building capacity for that process and also doing it in a way that supports actual integration and not re-experiencing Cause. Lot of you know the models for trauma treatment. Like you know the exposure therapy. It's like, yeah, you can kind of force yourself into collapse and just dissociate from the story. Yeah, that can work temporarily.

47:27 - Speaker 3 (Host) But you, it's like whack-a-mole you know it just will come out of a different place.

47:31 - Chase (Host) Whack-a-trauma. Yeah, exactly, yeah, basically.

47:34 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah. So it's a bit of like both, you know, holding capacity and also being here in this moment and looking at that relationship. And even when I think back to my time at the military, so much of the lingering, you know, energy was around the relationship with self, and something that came up a lot was, you know, this idea of what really confronting to, let's say, be with women in a group is the men feeling like monsters. A really core theme was but I'm a monster. I know I did these things for a good reason and because I was supposed to, and I've tried to make amends, but at the end of the day, I'm a monster. And there is this deep-seated shame that is much more impactful than being triggered by the amount of people in a crowd or by specific noises. It's really the impact on self that I found to be the most pervasive piece and that's not addressed as much piece and that's not addressed as much.

48:55 - Chase (Host) Right, right, you have some other pretty unique and for me familiar and exciting ways that you go about helping people, and particularly through your new work with within scape, I know you're bringing a lot of your norm experience and past traumatic work experience into individual but mostly collective community experiences, also integrating with sound therapy. Before we get into the sound therapy aspect, can you help us understand why, from a therapist's perspective, do you feel so strongly that community therapy events, community coming together and working through and working with whatever that person is showing up with they want to work on, is more powerful in that kind of community aspect?

49:39 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, like it brings me back to that point that I made about healing. We heal in community and that sympathetic resonance which is kind of connected to the sound healing piece is a really powerful entity for growth and expansion. And when we are in a very healthy state let's just say in the nervous system that ventral vagal state that is the social engagement system, so we can amplify each other's energy. And if that, if what's being amplified is connection, love, safety, then we can amplify each other's energy. And if that, if what's being amplified is connection, love, safety, then we can bring other people into that state that maybe aren't there yet on their own. And so that's why I'm so passionate about group work. I mean, I love individual, but I love love, love, group work because it's electric.

50:31 Like there are so many things happening in that room and it's very synergistic and it's a powerful space and I believe in it. You know the community because I just see the impact. I have seen how profound the impact is to heal alongside others.

50:52 - Chase (Host) For someone listening right now that is interested in finally taking action. And yes, I'm going to get mental health help. I'm going to do, whether that's working with a therapist or just going to a place to talk about my feelings and, just you know, open up in a way. Maybe I haven't before. Would you recommend them to take that first step into a group environment, or should it be first individual?

51:17 - Malorie (Guest) Well, I mean, if it were up to me, I would say group. Everybody's different, of course, but I just think that is. You just really drop yourself into the space where healing happens a bit quicker.

51:37 - Chase (Host) And you don't feel like group might be too much for somebody or prevent them from opening up more, because it's oh, I have to open up myself to her, to him, to him, to her, to her, to her, all at once.

51:51 - Malorie (Guest) It is a lot for some people and the thing about it is, even if we are sitting in silence, we are getting something out of it. We may be validated by somebody else's share we may make. I mean, I've worked with people that it was so hard to even look up, to look up to make eye contact and in our whole you know, eight weeks together. The goal was was to really just make eye contact with the people that were sharing and that was incredibly powerful in being able to experience the actual connection. The nervous system regulation, regulation, and it goes back to. It's like we don't necessarily have to be sharing to have an impact, and that's more true in group.

52:38 I would say. Of course we can get a lot of benefit out of sharing and most of the time people are sharing and they get to that place, but it's intimidating If you've never done it before. It's intimidating and it's scary to think well, I've got to share in front of all these people and you don't have to do anything, but I've never made somebody share notice that you've been sitting there and it seems like you have something to say, but then you kind of shut down and they notice that in each other and they invite it and that's a very seen place to be in and that invites intimacy, that invites the sharing of self, even if it's uncomfortable. So I'm not dogging on individual work. I think that you can do a lot in individual work.

53:31 I just. I love community and I love group work.

53:39 - Chase (Host) What comes up for me in group is that because I've experienced both sides of this is that sharing something in a group experience that you're hesitant to even to say out loud to yourself sometimes isn't always for you. It's for the other people in the group, even just one other person, yeah, and there's a level of vulnerability but also bravery that that takes. And there's also this other component of connection that on the receiving end of that going, oh, I might not be saying anything, I might not be giving anything to this group seemingly, but yeah, I heard this other person say this thing that unlocks something in me and now, like the kind of the floodgates are open kind of thing, yeah, what's your, what are your thoughts on that kind of that level of vulnerability and bravery in the group environment in order to help other people maybe not just ourselves- I think I am more interested in the impact of that than that being somebody's intention coming into it.

54:45 Okay, you know because.

54:48 - Malorie (Guest) I get curious about it. I'm curious about if that's the intention to help others and that's fine because likely that's going to happen anyways, but I would be curious, like I'd want to have a conversation with that person too, around like just doing it for somebody else. Where else does that come up, you know?

55:14 - Chase (Host) And then what about sound? I know you integrate a lot of sound therapy and various forms and types of sound in these group experiences. What role does sound play in our mental health and in these therapeutic experiences?

55:31 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, well, you know, sound is so fascinating. That was another kind of call and pull that I had. It's like this is your next step in trauma treatment is sound. And what I fell in love with was just you know that sound and frequencies are medicine, that is, nutrients for our body, and when we experience disease, it's because we are missing frequencies, and that really resonates for me.

55:58 And what I love about it as an offering is about it as an offering. Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that it as an offering? Is that offering? Is that?

56:23 And so the science piece behind it is it is engaging the parasympathetic nervous system and more time spent there. It allows us to integrate. You know like our blood circulates better, heart pumps faster. You know the immune system functions better, our cells regenerate, like the parasympathetic space is where we want to be. It's also, like I said, the source of social engagement system, and so when you integrate the sound, which is essentially like a cellular massage, right, like? Some of the sounds are harmonic and so it's creating a relaxing sensation in the body. Some of the sounds are dissonant, which is meant to activate and kind of bring stuff up, and yet, as the facilitator, you are curating this experience and providing this dance between those two spaces, which allows a person to sit with the experience, and you can always trust that you'll come back to a state of harmony, if that's what I'm providing, right, there's a lot of sound healers out there that are kind of just like randomly doing the thing, playing lots of things. You can walk out of a sound healing feeling like wow, that was like.

57:32 - Chase (Host) That was a thing. Yeah, I've done a few of those.

57:36 - Malorie (Guest) But I'm coming into it with a very intentional drive to look at the fact that, you know, most people have trauma.

57:44 So it's a very trauma informed practice for me where I am assuming that people are walking into the space with trauma, and that goes into every decision that I'm making as I am playing instruments, and so I'm looking at the group, I'm watching any shifts, I'm watching the signs of, like, contraction or disease and I will redirect and I do, of course, want to, like, prep people ahead of time and let them know that it can be relaxing and that there can be moments where it's unpleasant because it's really cool.

58:16 You know, sound travels to areas of density, so where there is wounding or tension or trauma, the sound's going to go there and it's going to, you know, create space and make room for release or settling and when we finish, I love having this kind of integration group where we can process the experience, and I can't tell you how many times people say I was having these memories pop up. Well, you know, sound it is activating parts of the brain that can bring up emotions and then it's activating the part of the brain that regulates the nervous system, and so you get this experience of essentially what we're doing in therapy. Right, it's bringing things up, talking about the things, and then we're trying to regulate it, and so it's doing that, except you're, you know, lying on your back, cozied up, and by the time we end you're in that space of social engagement system, mostly, of course. Sometimes people you know they don't want to talk, and that's okay.

59:25 - Chase (Host) But if they are called to, to be able to share that in this container that we've created, has been really powerful If you suffer from this, this particular type of sound or frequency would be best suited to treat or address, or frequency would be best suited to treat or address, or maybe kind of on the opposite side, if you're suffering from this type of trauma or this type of poor emotional state, this type of sound might actually be very jarring and very triggering. So is there kind of a code, you know, a key, if you will, for this type of mental health work and this type of sound?

01:00:01 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah. So there's definitely things out there on the internet where it outlines like if you want to have more love, like this is the frequency, if you want more of this, like those things exist. But in all of the research that I've been looking into, the healing is really in the overtones of sound. It's not the strike of an instrument that creates a specific frequency. It can be the harmonics of two and even the overtones when they are kind of sustaining, Like you have a bowl and you play it and you don't touch it anymore and then you play another.

01:00:36 There is an overtone that's being created, and the research shows that that's where the healing is is in the overtones, and so, to me, I look at that as it's non-specific. However, it is, you know, in being intentional about making sure that there is a balance of harmonics in what you're offering.

01:01:03 - Chase (Host) Yeah, do you think maybe it makes me think of um, in that resonance there's a stability of that frequency, a stability of that wavelength, for not forever but like a good amount of time. Do you feel like maybe that resonance, that frequency, that stability on the person, on the receiver, activates something, because it's so stable for so long that maybe we haven't experienced before, that it kind of opens up? There's like this safe frequency that's not going anywhere. So it does allow me to kind of let my guard down, so to speak.

01:01:32 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, there is this, uh, this term in physics called entrainment, which is essentially a higher vibration, will kind of sync up. A lower vibration will sync up with a higher vibration, and it's sympathetic resonance, and so when we are, let's say, out of whack, something is not in coherence.

01:02:01 We are not in a resonant space. And so when our heart entrains our brain, that then entrains our nervous system, which allows our immune system to function better, our whole, all of our organs start to be impacted. Everything goes into a state of coherence and resonance and we have more access to, again, the social engagement system. We have more access to joy, compassion, love, all of these pleasant experiences. The flow state. That is about being in resonance state that is about being in resonance and in that, because we are electrical beings and because of that we have a magnetic field that extends outside of our body, so we also can impact the people around us.

01:02:52 So when you think about meditation kind of raising our vibration, when we do it in community it it's even more amplified and so it's a very powerful healing process to be in community when we are actively engaged in the parasympathetic nervous system, because if somebody in the room is really struggling and somebody isn't, you can you can entrain that person by doing nothing yeah you know, and that's so profound to me because I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with like tuning forks and how they work with I've, I've no of them.

01:03:25 Yeah, like how if you they have the same frequency and you strike one, the other one starts to sing oh, I didn't know that.

01:03:32 - Chase (Host) And then?

01:03:32 - Malorie (Guest) you can hold the one where you originally, and this one will continue singing. Really, that's essentially what's happening. That is the example of entrainment and sympathetic resonance, and so it's really fascinating.

01:03:45 - Chase (Host) Wow, and it makes me kind of think of a recent example I was sharing with you earlier. Recently went through a pretty gnarly stomach bug and you know, you're kind of like, oh, you're moaning and groaning, and my wife was asking me, you know, why do we moan, why do we want to moan, why do we feel like, why do we feel like moaning helps when we don't feel good? And it made me think of, um, actually kind of the fun fact I picked up from a mutual friend, Ben. I went to one of his breathwork sessions a couple months ago doing the somatic breath work, and then it was like this, this humming, and you know it was explaining how the humming stimulates the vagus nerve, which just allows this kind of calm, simulating the parasympathetic nervous system, but also can help increase nitric oxide. So there is a very calming effect to even just our own internal music that we can create. So if that is true when we do it for ourselves and to ourselves, imagine just receiving a higher level of that.

01:04:39 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah.

01:04:39 - Chase (Host) That's pretty powerful.

01:04:40 - Malorie (Guest) That is really powerful and it's true. I mean, the sound healing is the same with the releasing nitric oxide and and our voice is an instrument. It really is.

01:04:51 And, um, I was reading this research about this recently, actually about, uh, they were testing the effect of instruments on human cells and seeing if they could have impact, or you know, there's a lot of research with cancer and it kind of exploding cancer cells using frequency, and a lot of these frequencies are well above what the human ear can detect, but it's specific devices that they have used to actually they explode because, similar to like a tuning fork if there's a singer, that will sing and he can find the exact note of maybe a glass that he struck, and then he sings it to the point where it just explodes. Oh, wow. And so that theory kind of applied to cells, and so in this other research they tested the cells with all the different instruments and the human voice had the most impact.

01:05:54 - Chase (Host) Really.

01:05:54 - Malorie (Guest) Yes, which makes sense, because think about, the first instrument we hear is our mother's voice. We are the first sound healers, you know.

01:06:04 - Chase (Host) So yeah, babies like throwing a fit, and just hearing their parent, hearing their mother, can just really snap them out of it.

01:06:11 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, sound is like the universal language that has impact without words, and that's a really huge experience.

01:06:24 - Chase (Host) You're in a family of musicians. You know music seems to kind of really run in all the things that you all do, and I'm curious, your husband being this Grammy award winning musician, do you all ever collaborate on something like this? Or you all just always creating, thinking, doing, working in music all the time, the time?

01:06:40 - Malorie (Guest) well, he is busy right now yeah doing the album that they are, you know which I'm stoked for.

01:06:47 - Chase (Host) That's amazing.

01:06:48 - Malorie (Guest) Here it's been amazing and it's been fun. You know this go around of writing because he has a studio in our house and so it's allowed us to be together a lot. You know they've had these trips that they've gone on as a, as a band, to kind of work together and create to create that together.

01:07:07 Yeah, yeah and that's been fun, you know, because they've gone to different spots to do that. But then they've got a studio where they are, in miami, and he has one in our house and it's just been really conducive to our life as just a normal family.

01:07:19 - Chase (Host) To keep the harmony of your family.

01:07:20 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, but it is very ingrained in our world and he is always making music in there and it's fun to have it be a constant.

01:07:31 - Chase (Host) Do you ever sample each other's music for like your breathwork session, or vice versa? Not yet Say, hey, that was my beat. Not yet.

01:07:38 - Malorie (Guest) But I do. It was his idea, but I'm on board with it. But he wants to help me kind of create an album, a sound healing album.

01:07:46 - Chase (Host) Cool. Wow, yeah, I can see how he would have that idea.

01:07:50 - Malorie (Guest) Yes, I know Of course he's a good fit for that and it's exciting and I'm really looking forward to when he has some time to actually help me with that, but right now he is very in the studio working on the album Love the idea of doing music.

01:08:03 - Chase (Host) That's great to hear, yeah, and someone that works so much in therapy and you know whether you're one-on-one in a group or creating these sound experiences for people, I'm sure you have to be on the receiving end of a lot of heaviness. So what do you do to manage your mental health while keeping and working with and helping people kind of at like the peak of theirs?

01:08:25 - Malorie (Guest) You know, what's so interesting is that even when I was at Camp Pendleton, and probably the peak of what you would consider like heaviness of the work, you know like it was a lot, but there was so much joy in it.

01:08:43 For me, that gratitude was the soothing balm, the gratitude that I experienced for being in the room, for being a witness, the real honor I mean even when I say that it doesn't do it justice, when you say like it's such an honor, like it just sounds a little too hallmark about it because it's it's almost unsayable the experience of being in the room with a person who's willing to share their most vulnerable parts. So for me, the practices have a lot more to do with integrating the, the gratitude, integrating the gratitude, and that looks like yoga. Yoga is the main way that I show up for myself, because I can be so in tune with the experience, what I'm actually feeling in the moment. It's such a present-oriented practice and it just makes me feel things even more, so I could hurry through my experience in my day and then I get to yoga and I'm like, wow, so overwhelmed with gratitude and so overwhelmed with connection to humanity.

01:09:52 So it isn't necessarily needing to like release anything. There have been some moments where it's been heavy, but in general it's more allowing, allowing myself to feel really grateful.

01:10:04 - Chase (Host) To wrap it all up, those two words, what do they mean to you? How would you say you live a life ever forward?

01:10:10 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, well, I think, when I think about ever forward, what comes to mind for me is that life isn't static, that it is really dynamic and dimensional, and even if our path is not linear, it still is moving in that trajectory that is forward. And so, in those moments when we feel stuck or stagnant, I want to bring into the awareness of what is our relationship with the movement of our life. How are we relating to this relationship with ourself? Because when we're in a flow state, we are still. We're moving right, we're very mobile in flow.

01:10:56 And a lot of flow is that we are deeply present, deeply attuned to this moment and accepting of this moment, and so when I think about ever forward, I think about that. That it's like, yeah, being here now and moving is the is the path that carries us forward never a right or wrong answer.

01:11:16 - Chase (Host) I always appreciate everybody's interpretation. Well, I'm going to have all of your information, what you're up to and the work with InScape down in the show notes and video notes for everybody, but where can they go to connect with you more and learn more about your work?

01:11:30 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, I think the best place right now is just on my Instagram with InScape. It's a good place to kind of get to know me more, and I like to post different resource things on there too to just have an offering in the world and I kind of just dropped that name a couple of times.

01:11:49 - Chase (Host) but WithinScape is your new kind of sound healing experience. Can you maybe highlight that real quick?

01:11:53 - Malorie (Guest) Yeah, so I wanted to create WithinScape so that I could really have a space. I call it a space and an invitation because it's really, you know, creating an actual space where we can come together and be in community and experience sound. And then the invitation is to dive inward into that inner landscape and explore really the full expanse of it. And, yeah, so a big piece of it is the sound healing in the group work and also just community as well.

01:12:36 - Chase (Host) For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to EverForwardRadio.com