EFR 819: Neuropsychotherapist Explains How to Never Feel STUCK Again, Why You Get the Sunday Scaries & Current Limitations of the DSM for Mental Health Disorders with Britt Frank

00:00 - Chase (Host) The following is an Operation Podcast production.

00:03 - Britt (Guest) Instead of steady state. What's going on when we're stuck in 90 miles an hour and fifth, what we call the Sunday scaries All that is is that you've spent all weekend getting back to first gear and your brain knows tomorrow you have to go back to fifth. Between what you're telling yourself and what is happening is going to create anxiety, panic, dissatisfaction, all the things that we don't want I mean. Truth is a really potent medicine and you can do truth without rumination with practice. But what the mental health world calls disorders are often the result of brains doing exactly what they're supposed to do. Symptoms are always triggered by a story. You don't have to know what it is. The mental health world is still very stuck in an outdated way of thinking, about thinking. Most people will still say depression is a chemical imbalance, but that theory has never been proven. Hi, this is Britt Frank, licensed neuropsychotherapist, also a recovering hot mess. Disaster of a human being. Welcome to Ever Forward Radio.

01:15 - Chase (Host) My guest today my repeat guest today is Britt Frank. She brings the expertise, she brings the passion. She brings the no bullshit, but she also brings the authority. She is a licensed neuropsychotherapist and author of the Science of Stuck. If you want to check out Britt's first appearance on the show about two years ago, back in September of 2022, make sure to check out episode 639, all about using anxiety and grief to your advantage and overcoming emotional regression. I'm going to have that linked for you down in the show notes to check out later, but in today's episode, we're going to be challenging conventional views on mental health and self-regulation. Britt in fact argues that our brains are designed for dynamic flux rather than a constant state of calm, debunking the myth that mental health disorders are simply chemical imbalances. This episode is chocked full of learning how to develop stronger mental resilience, digging deep to find and keep motivation and one of my personal favorites the importance of healthy boundaries. Britt was with me in studio, so if you want to check out the video, which I always encourage you to do, you can find it at everforwardradiocom or head over to YouTube. Make sure to subscribe to the channel. I'll have it linked for you down in the show notes, as always under episode resources. Subscribing to the channel or following on Apple Podcasts or Spotify whatever your podcast platform of choice is is one of the best ways you could ever say thank you and throw a little love and support our way. Subscribing following does incredible things for the show helps us grow, reach more people, help more people and attract more amazing guests, like today, britt Frank. With that being said, welcome back to the show, britt.

03:00 Here you all are and I want to pull a quote actually from that first conversation before we dive into kind of this revamp of your work, cause I feel like even still it's so pertinent. Quote our nervous systems, our brains, are not wired to be in a steady state. It drives me bananas when people sell self-regulation as the ultimate goal of wellness. You're not supposed to be self-regulated all the time. All of the things we want passion, creativity, inspiration, success are all on the edges of human experience. That's you, that's your quote. How does that land with you? Can you kind of maybe help us understand that a little bit more now?

03:41 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, I think it's true more than ever now, with people being so, I think. How many memes? The biggest flex is a regulated nervous system and it's like I'm glad we're talking about regulation, because we weren't. But this idea that you can exist in this perfect state of health, healing, wellness, optimized performance, steady state that's not how human brains, brain, that is not how it works, that's not the design. If you're in this perfect steady state, you're high on something which sounds fun, but our brains are meant to be static and dynamic and ever changing and like we're supposed to be able to weave in and out. Emotional regulation is just being able to stay in a place where you can make choices. But again, peak human experiences take you well out of regulation, which is a good thing. That's like how are you going to increase your capacity to human if you don't challenge your edges? So no, calm is not end goal, end game.

04:34 - Chase (Host) This makes me think of another quote that is probably the one I share the most on air with other guests, but it's going to be kind of contradictory, I think. So maybe just the other side of the take. So let's go there. This comes from an episode I had last summer with Bea and Azria Becker. Shout out Becoming Love, everything they're up to as you discover a version of yourself that is deeply solid but is never rigid. You emanate a warmth that makes other people's nervous systems unwind in your presence, without you saying a single word. That sounds good, but I'm hearing you say that's not the goal.

05:14 - Britt (Guest) I love that quote and I think it's true. I don't think it's untrue. But again, this like when I'm practicing therapy, I effort to be in that state where people can feel supported and held and accepted and unwind. But like Brit's, therapy state is not my steady state. I am a fully ridiculous human being cycling through you can ask my husband's like it is not.

05:39 I'm in therapist open nervous system, let's human together mode, because I also have to have an experience where I'm going up and down and I need people to contain my nervous system. Let's human together mode, because I also have to have an experience where I'm going up and down and I need people to contain my nervous system. And so I do think it's a system where we want to embody that state as often as possible because it's it's a good place to be. But again, change is static, it's it's not this one state, unless you're on psychedelics and that's great. But they wear off and then you have to go back into the muggle world again and do the human things. So that quote I think is beautiful and I do think it's ideal, but it's just not a realistic way to expect yourself to be. And then when people dysregulate, then it's the shame narrative of oh my God, I'm dysregulating.

06:22 Yeah, which then gets more cortisol and more oh crap and more of the thing we don't want. So it's like okay, it's like a stick shift in a car. You have to be able to shift between States to drive. You don't want to be in fifth the whole time. You need to be able to flow.

06:37 - Chase (Host) Yeah, and you don't really. You can't really forever be floating in neutral either. So you got to be able to get to that neutral state regulation, but you have to be able to know which upshift downshift is required, right.

06:53 - Britt (Guest) And I can't drive a stick for anything Like I will blow every transmission every time, but the principle is the same and it's, instead of steady state, what's going on when we're stuck in 90 miles an hour and fifth, like what we call the Sunday scaries. All that is is that you've spent all weekend getting back to first gear and your brain knows tomorrow you have to go back to fifth gear and you don't know how to shift. And so that's what Sunday scaries are physiologically.

07:19 - Chase (Host) Can you expand on that a little bit more? I feel like Sunday scaries. Everyone is tuning in right now. Yes, Help me get rid of the Sunday Scaries.

07:26 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, it's very, very it's very hot right now. It's very on trend. So Sunday Scaries, by definition, is the feeling of dread and impending doom you get Sunday night as you're about to face a week. Think about this Like you're driving a car. We spend Monday through Friday grinding 90 miles an hour and fifth and then Friday night hits. Why can't I relax? Why can't I just settle down? I don't know why I can't watch a show. Then it's alcohol or drugs or whatever, right. So then we spend all weekend forcing our nervous systems back down to first gear, but Monday morning we try to shift. I mean, have you ever driven a stick where you shift from 20 and first to 90 and fifth without my first car was a Jeep stick shift, so you know I've been there.

08:05 - Chase (Host) That's not a good call. No, no, no.

08:07 - Britt (Guest) So Sunday scaries are your brain revving up, getting ready to do a shift that it shouldn't be doing? If you want to solve Sunday scaries, it's figure out what your shift up plan is so that when you hit Monday morning you're not. Oh crap, I'm 90 and fifth and my brain's not quite ready for it.

08:26 - Chase (Host) So is the best way to get rid of the Sunday scaries? Is it to develop the Friday funds? I'm trying to think of a quick tagline, but I'm hearing we should be more focused on how to kind of go into the weekend or detaching from the week, before we ever have to jump back into the next week.

08:43 - Britt (Guest) Yes, from the week before we ever have to jump back into the next week. Yes, with the caveat that the cure for Sunday scaries I don't like the word cure, but if the cure for Sunday scaries is honesty about what you're about to face, do you hate your job? Do you work in a toxic environment? Are you being abused by your coworkers? Do you know that Monday morning you're going to be leaving your kids and you feel horrible? I mean it's like what's really going on Because you're going to be leaving your kids and you feel horrible. I mean it's like what's really going on Because the brain shifts are the physiology, but we also have emotions and thoughts and consciousness and all that other crap we have to deal with. So it's like what's really going to be expected of you during the week, and then you can create your downshift Friday plan and your upshift Monday plan. But that is the cure is first honesty, then choice, then shift.

09:30 - Chase (Host) I kind of like intro in a little bit of work. So I actually find a lot, of, a lot of help really in, I guess, that downshift, upshift situation by working a small block, uh, either on Saturday or Sunday, so it's not work all through the week. Weekend is absolutely no work, and then I have to jump back into work on Monday. I kind of tiptoe in and out of that a little bit. How do you feel about that?

09:46 - Britt (Guest) That works, and I work for myself too. So I came out of the corporate world, working for yourself or being an entrepreneur. You don't have the choice to unplug for a weekend Like that's not a thing. It's like you are on. You're expected to be on all the time but, like we said, you can't steady state. So I think microdosing work is the prescription when you run your own show.

10:06 - Chase (Host) I microdose anything, so I love to hear that you want to microdose.

10:10 - Britt (Guest) We need to microdose all of the things, including negativity and bad feelings and anger and all of that. We can go down that rabbit hole too.

10:16 - Chase (Host) Yeah, what do you mean by that Microdosing? Negativity anger.

10:20 - Britt (Guest) Yeah. So this again, the wellness trend, which has good intentions, of think positive and mindset is everything. And master your mindset, it's great, except when it ignores the reality of pain. So, like you, can acknowledge the presence of pain without skewing into this negative victim. I have no choices, mindset, but simply saying, wow, the things that are facing me this week suck and there are some hard things on my plate. That goes a long way to regulating if that's what we're looking for and shifting than trying to pretend I'm grateful, I'm happy, I'm grateful, I'm happy, which is going to that dissonance between what you're telling yourself and what is happening is going to create anxiety, panic, dissatisfaction, all the things that we don't want. I mean. Truth is a really potent medicine and you can do truth without rumination with practice.

11:15 - Chase (Host) So am I hearing correctly that it's really the distance between what we're telling ourselves and what? What we're telling ourselves we need to get away from or prepare for? In that actual event Right Like. The more that gap exists, the worse the situation is going to be, and probably not as truthful as we're being with ourselves, to ourselves, about the situation.

11:38 - Britt (Guest) Exactly yes, my favorite author, m Scott Peck. He defines mental health as a commitment to reality, no matter what. Like ouch, like oof, that was just a big like. I don't like that because reality has a lot of ick stuff about ourselves, about other people, but the capacity to be honest about who we are, what we think, all of the different things happening to us, through us, whatever is it, goes a long way towards making that Sunday scary is, if it's, I should be grateful, I should be happy. I'm just glad you know like, but it's still painful. Perspective is good, like. All things considered, I have a pretty good. I appreciate privilege and I appreciate access and resources. That's good. But perspective allows for lots of things to coexist, including this sucks. I hurt, I don't like this versus I should be happy, I should be positive, like. I don't like positive or negative thinking. Actually, positive thinking ignores pain. Negative thinking ignores reality of resources, like what's true?

12:42 - Chase (Host) Yeah, like that twist.

12:43 - Britt (Guest) Yeah. So no positive thinking, hot take, don't do it.

12:47 - Chase (Host) Not up in here.

12:50 That's such a powerful point I want everyone to kind of like go back to. How many times do we say and I'm raising my hand here, I'm just, I'm so stressed out, I'm so, I'm working so much doing all these things, so grateful, so grateful for the opportunity All good things are mostly good things we feel this need or maybe I'm alone to we have to say that we have to not allow we feel like we can't allow ourselves to feel Right and we have to go. Oh yeah, but you know there's good here and it could be worse, which is all true, but that doesn't take away from the realness that we're experiencing stress pain, anxiety, worry even though it might be on that kind of upward slope of the thing that we're doing Right.

13:33 - Britt (Guest) I have a tool I use called the also true list. So, whatever thing you're telling yourself, I'm grateful, I'm happy, I'm lucky, awesome, awesome, what's also true? And so if you can throw in the also truths, you keep your brain out of this. It has to be all this thing or all that thing, and then you make room for how complex and sticky and messy our lives tend to be.

13:55 - Chase (Host) One of the biggest truths I've experienced the last couple of years is accepting the fact that two things can be true at the same time.

14:02 - Britt (Guest) Isn't that just like?

14:04 - Chase (Host) and I used to think that only applied to big life, changing things, you know, like my belief systems, or how I viewed the world, or how I chose to show up in the world, and you know, just let go of a lot of things in order to accept new things. I thought it had to be either or no, but you know, even in seemingly mundane, little daily emotions, two truths can be true at the same time. Right, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

14:27 - Britt (Guest) No, especially because our minds are not these single things Like all of us have parts, so you've got happy parts and sad parts, and younger parts and cranky teenage parts.

14:36 So it's like that's why you can feel like I love my partner and I hate them. I love my kid and I hate them. You're not a hypocrite. That's like I hate them. I love my kid and I hate them. You're not a hypocrite. That's like I've never treated a parent who has felt all and nothing but love at every moment of every day. But it doesn't make you a bad person or a crazy person. There's no such thing as a crazy person, even if you have a mental illness. That doesn't make you crazy. Crazy is a judgment, not a reality. So that's my disclaimer. But like you can have a thousand competing voices in your head and that they can all be right at the same time, which is confusing, until you know that everyone has multiple personalities and they can all get along if you know how to have family meetings.

15:17 - Chase (Host) So then, what should be the goal Is there? Is there a goal we should be working towards, or is it just accepting of all of these things existing at all times?

15:27 - Britt (Guest) I really like the internal family systems, the IFS concept of self-leadership, and the idea is that at the core of who we are is a capital S self. So, like soul, christ, consciousness, whatever you want to call it, I like self because it's simple. It's like the self that's connected to source. That is not your parts, like you have your parts and then there's a self that's not the parts. And self-leadership is when you can stay observant of what's happening without being run by it, and then you can sort of take care of everyone in your head without feeling like they're running the show. So yeah, that's the goal, self-leadership.

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18:15 I want to shift into a little bit of really kind of alarming statistics about the mindset people have right now and how they feel about feeling stuck, and I found this stat from the Gallup State of the Global Workplace 2023 report this stat from the Gallup State of the Global Workplace 2023 report so pretty fresh just last year and it's talking about how more people than ever are feeling stuck in their work and life. In fact, 85% of people are disengaged. They report being disengaged. They may be facing broken cultures, toxic bosses, troubled relationships or the real prospect of a job loss or relationship loss. How can we break free from feeling this way?

18:58 - Britt (Guest) God. Well, first let's separate out and this is important to me to be responsible as a person who talks about this stuff when I talk about being stuck and getting unstuck, I am not talking about situations where you have no choices, no access to resources, like no clean water, you know, or food, or you're worried that a bomb's going to drop on your house, like that's not being stuck, that's being oppressed, and that's a big, big difference. So, like, when I talk about feeling stuck, getting unstuck, it assumes that you have the ability to at least make a few choices. So if someone says to me I'm stuck at work, well, it doesn't, actually I don't. How do you even begin to solve for that? What does that mean? Like, do you?

19:38 - Chase (Host) have or like chain to the desk, literally or Exactly.

19:40 - Britt (Guest) For some people maybe, if that's their jam.

19:43 - Chase (Host) No judgment, but like that's Everford after hours.

19:48 - Britt (Guest) Wow, we totally just veered, way, off course, okay, where?

19:52 - Chase (Host) was that?

19:53 - Britt (Guest) make sure everybody's paying attention here okay, cool, noted, um, but like, are you stuck because you don't have the skill level to get a new job? If so, we need to get your skills up leveled. Are you stuck because you don't know how to have conversations with co-workers? Then we need to up level your communication. We need to start with well, what flavor of suck are we talking about? Are we talking about you legitimately have no options and no choices, in which case there's not a lot we can do there, but it's rarely the case that someone has no choices when it comes to their work environments.

20:25 I appreciate if you have five kids and a mortgage and elderly parents and there's one company in your town and this is where you have to. I get that. But more often than not, people do have more choices, and I'll say the thing you're not supposed to say. I'll speak for myself. I'm not calling anybody out but me. A lot of times, my I'm stuck was because I did not like my choices. I didn't wanna make any choices and I wanted someone to come save me. So as long as I sat in the I'm stuck, there's nothing to be done. Then I could sort of outsource accountability.

21:00 - Chase (Host) To have that hard conversation with yourself. How would you advise somebody to really do that? Because if they're saying yes, right now, brett, I'm stuck. I'm stuck, you don't know my life, you don't know my situation. Let's assume safety is there, all these other things are there. Let's assume safety is there, all these other things are there. Let's have that hard conversation with them right now.

21:15 - Britt (Guest) So I would start with you're right, I don't know your life, I don't know what it's like to be you and I have absolutely no clue what you're up against. But I and I'm not trying to I would say what are your choices and then I would sit there and wait until you made a list of 20. If I was being bitchy that day, stay there until you can identify 20 choices.

21:32 You don't have to like them, they don't have to be good choices. Quitting your job is a choice. It's not a smart one for most people, but having the hard conversation and telling your boss to F off probably not a good idea. But it is a choice because anywhere your brain is aware of its choices, it's going to be less reactive and then you'll have access to your thinking brain and you'll be able to get unstuck faster.

21:52 - Chase (Host) We just need to see options, or know that options are possible. It might not be the right option, but I couldn't agree more. Seeing options is going to get you to think drastically different.

22:02 - Britt (Guest) Exactly, and some brainstorming. And when people say I have no choices, that's a sign to me that the logical part of their brain has gone fully out the door and the safety parts of our brain that are don't get eaten by the tiger are sort of up and running the show. And so we're going to sit here until we can come up with some choices. And if you can't come up with any, legitimately, I get that. Then find a safe person, find a friend's phone, do something until you can get a list of choice points, cause once you start identifying them, you're going to see that you have more than you realize. And here's the rub, and this is the thing again no one wants to talk about. A lot of times staying stuck does benefit us, like we all want to count that.

22:42 And again, I'm a former drug addict. I've had eating disorders, panic disorder, mental illnesses, ocd, like. My list of crap is not short. So I am certainly not saying like it's easy to just make your life really good. I'm not. I am saying for me and for many, being stuck does a job. So like, like, what, like what could be the benefits of being addicted and unhappy and in bad relationships and unfit and unwell. Well, as someone who was all those things energy conservation is one like.

23:12 It's easier not to do things than to do things. If we're going pure brain science, your brain wants you to be alive, not to be thriving and fit and happy and well. Image preservation If you don't risk making big changes, you don't ever have to fail. So you get to be pretty certain that your outcome, like as a drug addict, it wasn't good, but I could pretty much guarantee my outcome would be bad. Therefore, I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to be uncertain. Hope is scary and hope feels really gross, but if you know everything is going to go down in flames guaranteed.

23:45 - Chase (Host) Yeah, I guess so.

23:47 - Britt (Guest) From a neurological standpoint, that uncertainty is a killer. So if we can guarantee an outcome, I'm stuck. Well, now you don't have to deal with uncertainty. There are a lot, and the trick to this is can you get honest about your benefits without shaming yourself. Like I was in a series of very violent romantic relationships. Like not my fault, I did not cause it, I wasn't asking for it. But I had to get really honest with myself, with, like I understand the cost of this, but like what am I getting out of being in this? And then it was clutching at. My therapist asked me that I'm like F you like I am a victim and legitimately I was being victimized, no doubt. But like if I was with someone that was bad, I could objectively be good and I didn't have to deal with any of my stuff, as long as I was with someone who was worse than me, yeah what a great excuse.

24:35 That was for and I'm not saying everyone in a violent relationship is doing this, I'm speaking for myself. Don't angry DM me, please, but like.

24:43 - Chase (Host) But leave a comment anyway.

24:44 - Britt (Guest) Yes, comments and share.

24:46 - Chase (Host) Support your favorite show.

24:48 - Britt (Guest) But like, if you look at it from like a business standpoint cost and benefit you have to have both. Everyone can flood their cost column. But like, great, what's the benefit of your panic, what's the benefit of your depression, what's the benefit of your addiction? But like, if we can get underneath, that we can get mobile and we can get moving and we can get unstuck.

25:10 - Chase (Host) But all that work is so gross.

25:12 - Britt (Guest) Gross is a really good word.

25:13 - Chase (Host) It's an uncommon word, but you might not hear that often in the work we're talking about, but it lands.

25:20 - Britt (Guest) It's gross it absolutely lands.

25:25 - Chase (Host) You have some interesting takes on things. One of them is that depression is not a disorder.

25:34 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, I say that as a licensed, like a clinically licensed therapist.

25:39 - Chase (Host) We hear what depression disorder.

25:40 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, and panic disorder, panic disorder.

25:42 - Chase (Host) Panic is not an attack is another one. So, what do you mean by first? Depression is not a disorder.

25:47 - Britt (Guest) You're going to get me in so much trouble, okay.

25:50 - Chase (Host) This is a safe space for here and for now. In here it's a safe space. Are we going there? At least for here and for now?

25:53 - Britt (Guest) In here. It's a safe space. Okay, so I will explain. And again, when I say depression is not a disorder, I've had it my whole life. I take antidepressants, I go to therapy Like it's a struggle for me. I'm not saying I don't have it, but what. The Paul's disorders are often the result of brains doing exactly what they're supposed to do.

26:15 - Chase (Host) What do you mean by that?

26:16 - Britt (Guest) Yeah. So, like I'll give an example, let's say that I'm just going to make something up here. Let's say that when I was a baby, every single night, my parents would fight and they would come home drunk and beat the crap out of each other and like all of the smells and sounds of like liquor bottles smashing and people screaming were surrounding me as a baby. Okay, so now I grow up and I don't have any memory of that, cause you don't have memories when you're that squishy. I go to a bar with my girlfriends and I'm 18 and all of a sudden I'm in a bar, smelling alcohol, hearing glasses, and I just start shaking and sweating and so, like that's not a disorder, that's my body is remembering something that is being triggered by the situation.

27:02 - Chase (Host) That's a past norm for you.

27:04 - Britt (Guest) Exactly, but I didn't know that, so we don't have to hunt for those memories. Fortunately, it's not like oh, what's the story that these symptoms are triggering? It's symptoms are always triggered by a story. You don't have to know what it is, but like if I, if my car's check engine light came on and I took it to the mechanic, he's not going to diagnose me with check engine light disorder. It's like, but we do the same thing. Right, you have panic, you come to me for therapy, I diagnose you with panic disorder. It's like panic is a signal, depression is it's a problem. I'm not saying it's not, but depression, panic, all of the addiction, these things are signals that are pointing toward an injury and it's the story under the symptom that's the real problem. So, like, check engine light disorder is not a thing, neither is panic disorder. What are you going to do with that?

27:57 - Chase (Host) I always think of you, know the health analogy and you know inflammation or muscle soreness it's. It's not a problem, it's an indication of something else going on. You know we don't get heartburn just because, oh, I have heartburn, it's because of a lot of other nutritional issues, or stress, or poor sleep. You know you don't weight gain just because your body decides, hey, cool, here's 50 extra pounds. No, it's for a lot of other potential different reasons. But I don't think the same is as top of mind for most people to these things.

28:31 - Britt (Guest) Why? Because the DSM, which is the big Bible, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

28:40 - Chase (Host) It's the big book of all the mental illnesses and all the symptoms. What about DSM-5 now? I think DSM-5.

28:43 - Britt (Guest) But like it started like 60 years ago, we're only on version five. Like think about how often your phone updates. What if you were only on the fifth version?

28:52 - Chase (Host) of your phone.

28:53 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, so, like the dsm is based on a system of understanding humanity, that was like long predated neuroscience, long predated a lot of the advances we have in health before phones, before cell phones at least exactly. So the ds. And again, we need the DSM because it gives people access to insurance and coverage. I get that. I have no problem with using it to help organize, but like the DSM is basically saying you have check engine light disorder and then boom, there's your disease. It does not ask about trauma.

29:25 It does not even consider trauma. It's not even post-traumatic stress disorders in there. But developmental trauma isn't, and a lot of other types of trauma aren't either. And so, like, the mental health world is still very stuck in an outdated way of thinking, about thinking, and that's why it's not common. Like most people will still say, depression is a chemical imbalance, but that theory has never been proven. In fact, it's been disproven time and time again but it.

29:52 - Chase (Host) But can't it be, can't it be it can be a chemical imbalance and therefore that's why we need to look at, you know, ssris and things like that it can be.

29:59 - Britt (Guest) And again I take meds yeah but ask a psychiatrist what's the precise balance of neurotransmitters? How much serotonin do I need? How much dope? No one's gonna know no, because it's too.

30:10 - Chase (Host) How can you?

30:10 - Britt (Guest) exactly, but like it's too complicated to just be a chemical imbalance. Are chemicals relevant? Yes, but so is a lot of other stuff. So the disorder model, this idea that humans are basically broken and diseased people, totally ignores the reality that our brains are freaking amazing and our brains will very quickly say F you, which they should if there's an injury that's not being dealt with. So I'm very yes, do all the things that you need to do to deal with the symptoms, because they're horrible, very much. No. The things that we call disorders are often the right responses to an injury.

30:47 - Chase (Host) Is there ever a time when we should be focusing first and foremost on symptom management, before we just go okay, that's just a symptom. Let me get to root cause stuff especially when we're talking about mental health.

30:59 - Britt (Guest) Oh yeah, I got fired by a therapist when I went in for trauma therapy. She's like girl you are so reactive, you're using so many, you're on drugs, you're addicted to relationships Like you can't tolerate the trauma healing process until we calm your system down. So she sent me to DBT, which is dialectical behavior therapy, which is pretty much all like let's manage the symptoms and give you some skills, because trauma work is gross and painful and you need a basic sense of internal stability before putting the burden of trauma work onto your system. So I'm a big advocate of sometimes symptom management has to come before trauma healing. But it's not so simple as just solve the symptoms and you're good. It's like now your brain loves you too much to let you get away with symptom suppression as a long-term strategy.

31:52 - Chase (Host) That's a fun thing to remember, I think, especially when we're talking about mental health. But you know anybody going through anything in any form of their health and well-being. It feels like sometimes your body is fighting against you.

32:06 - Britt (Guest) Yeah.

32:07 - Chase (Host) And that's definitely that's one way to look at it. But if we choose to look at it as no, I'm getting signaled, I'm getting red flags, I'm getting a direct path to problem area here. It's just a matter of when are we going to pay attention? And something I've said for years on the show is we need to get better at paying attention to the whispers our body gives us before they turn into screams. And we do get these whispers. We get these whispers by a gut feeling, intuition, a chronic a little, ache a little pain dreams, yes, but we just we ignore them or we kind of fluff them off as whatever.

32:44 But then when it turns into this big problem that turns into probably a physiological problem, it as like whatever. But then when it turns into this big problem that turns into probably a physiological problem, it's like, oh wow, then we can kind of reverse engineer and go back. I had an, I had an idea, I had a feeling.

32:57 - Britt (Guest) Yes, and that's why I if you're one of my clients you'll know I'm very militant about panic, Doesn't attack. Panic is a signal, it is a response, it is trying to get your attention. It feels like an attack because and I've had them you feel like you're gonna die, you feel like you're gonna go crazy, like I actually thought I was going to implode and explode at the same time and my heart was gonna stop it's awful it's awful, but it's it.

33:21 Even if you have no resources and absolutely no idea what's going on or what the story could be. Sometimes it's enough to just and I still do this sometimes just to say to yourself I have no time to figure out what this is, but my brain is on my side, I am not being attacked. This is not an attack, this is a response. There's a story here and eventually I'll try to figure out what it is. I don't have time right now because I have things to do. But panic doesn't attack all of our like. Amygdala hijack is a term that gets used. Your amygdala is not a terrorist, your amygdala is trying to keep you alive, and so amygdala response, panic signal, all of these things, because the way we talk to ourselves matters. It's not just me being a word nerd. If you tell your brain I am having an attack, your brain will take that very literally and then go oh, she's having an attack. Quick, deploy all of the cortisol and all the stress hormones, gas on the fire.

34:11 Yeah. So don't use the words attack to refer to your symptoms, because that will train your brain to ramp them up Again. I'm not minimizing them. I'm saying let's call them what they are. They're signals.

34:23 - Chase (Host) Yeah, and as someone who has been and currently is going through this, I'll just echo to your point. That has been a very helpful shift for me, because in the beginning it was holy hell, what's happening? What's happening, what's happening, you know, like my body's under attack, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but then shifting into okay, all right, this is a thing that's happening. I don't like it. It unpleasant, um, it's kind of embarrassing, especially when it's in public, right, but it's just shifting away from acknowledging and perpetuating the attack yes um, to a heightened conscious level.

34:56 Yes to just going.

34:57 - Britt (Guest) Okay, all right, as long as I'm in a safe place and as long as I'm not causing or inducing any other form of harm, just here we go it's awful, it's gross, yeah, yeah, it's kind of like food poisoning, like if you didn't know, if you were an alien and you visited our planet and you did not know what food poisoning was and you saw somebody go out to dinner and all of a sudden things are spewing out of them from every angle, every angle. You'd look at them and be like, wow, that person's crazy.

35:23 - Chase (Host) They were fine and all of a sudden they willingly chose to do this thing Exactly Consume this thing, yeah.

35:29 - Britt (Guest) You know their stomach's attacking them, but it's like we know. If you can eat contaminated fish, you're going to spend a very unpleasant evening racing between your bathtub and your toilet. It's not an attack. It's your body trying to get rid of the poison, which is what it's supposed to do, which is, again, gross and horrible. But we want to call these things what they are they're survival adaptations.

35:51 - Chase (Host) I like that.

35:51 - Britt (Guest) I like that a lot.

35:52 - Chase (Host) Hopefully that's kind of getting people to think differently about that. Right now, a lot of your work is around, you know, optimizing your brain for peak performance, and your background is really in neuropsychology correct.

36:04 So, kind of really understanding and laying this foundation of how the brain operates, how we can get the brain to operate better so that we can better navigate these feelings of being stuck and mental and emotional health work. And you talk about how you don't need motivation to get unstuck. You pull a lot of your research and work from neuroscience research and you have these three simple strategies to activate momentum. So ourselves, our family members, our team, anybody around us, can go from stuck mode to action mode. Can you kind of walk us through that a little bit?

36:38 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, and again the motivation conversation is it infuriates people that are super get up and go like really driven type A people, which I'm one of them. Some of the time, some of my personalities are type A let's do the things. But like, if you wait to feel like it hard, things won't get done, cause it's not ever going to be like yay, today's a great day to deal with my sexual abuse. Woo, let's go. It's like that's not a thing, so like it's never happened. So it's not not let me feel motivated to go do a hard thing. It's. I recognize that doing the hard thing is better than not doing the hard thing. Motivation comes after you get up and running, so motivation happens after you start, not as the thing that gets you to start. And so we most people know, like to simplify this, most people know the feeling of once I get to the gym, I'm fine, it's just like oh right.

37:29 - Chase (Host) It's like how do I?

37:31 - Britt (Guest) solve for the start.

37:32 - Chase (Host) If I could just teleport from my couch or my car or at work to the gym, I'm fine. But it's all the in between that. Just come on, come on, come on, come on, come on come on Right, and that's what I love.

37:43 - Britt (Guest) The neuroscience solves for that really unpleasant sticky gap between I want to do a thing I can't seem to get myself to and yay, I'm doing the thing.

37:53 - Chase (Host) What does neuroscience say about that? Why is that happening?

37:55 - Britt (Guest) So our brains don't like change and our brains don't necessarily like health. Our brains like survival. So if you want to be an optimized human fit well successful in romantic relationships that work, listening to ever forward radio, like everyone listening to radio.

38:11 - Chase (Host) That's why we're here.

38:12 - Britt (Guest) Yes, um, like and subscribe, um. So we need to know our brain likes small and our brain likes not change. So, if you know, I want to start a fitness routine because it's going to be good for me, yes, but your brain's default wiring is any change, even a good change, is going to hurt. It's going to be good for me, yes, but your brain's default wiring is any change, even a good change, is going to hurt. It's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be bad, it could kill us. So let's just stay on the couch.

38:33 - Chase (Host) Or remember what happened last time you got injured. You took eight steps backwards. Blah, blah, blah.

38:39 - Britt (Guest) Or we tried and we failed, or we tried and we did it and then we lost it. So the solution for that I call them micro yeses, and everyone hates these oh they're. So what's a micro micro yes? It's smaller than a small step and it's smaller than a baby step. Like a micro yes is the smallest possible thing that you can do without even blinking. So, like a micro yes for working out is not take a walk around the block Like that. People are like I'm going to try something small. I'm going to try after work. I'm just going to walk for a mile around my neighborhood. Well, if you're not doing it and most people don't when they start, including me, it's because that's too big. A micro yes for working out is not take a walk. A micro yes is put your left sneaker by the door and go back to the couch and tomorrow put your right sneaker by the door that's small that's, and here's why it's not just like I made this up.

39:29 When you do things that are that small, you can sort of maneuver underneath your brain's alarm system. So think of, like the mission impossible movie with the lasers. Micro yeses allow you to sort of sneak change in without setting off your brain's alarm system so we can really go behind enemy lines yes stealth ninja dip behind our own brain.

39:49 Exactly. And again, our brains are not our enemy, but you do need to sort of stealthy out with them, because the alarm system will go off very quickly. And everyone hates micro yeses. And they say the same thing how am I supposed to get anything done If I'm taking steps this small, like that's stupid? I'm like, yeah, it is, that's why it's so easy, right. But like, and people say, you know how, do you know how long it's going to take me to get fit doing micro yeses? And my answer is a lot shorter than if you keep doing it the way you've been doing it, which is take a step that's too big, it doesn't work. You feel shame. Then you feel why bother? Then you just say screw it, I'm not doing it. But micro yeses are sort of like investing money. Micro yeses compounds quickly and they build up this sense of I'm safe to change, I can change, I've kept promises to myself. That kicks in micro doses of dopamine and then you feel motivation. Micro yeses are very unsexy, but they work.

40:44 - Chase (Host) Okay, so I've asked this question to some past guests, kind of especially with a neuroscience background, and that's really, if the struggle with whatever our goal is, whatever we want is whatever reason that's, you know, personal, whatever I feel like there are ways that we can kind of get to serve that goal by focusing first on just making our bodies better through nutrition, through sleep, through exercise, you know, understanding how the body works so we can make those systems better to then put us in a better position to whatever goal.

41:17 So can we get there first by just focusing on brain health, like, if you know, really kind of look at neuroscience, like, what can I, what can I do to make, maybe, motivation easier? What can I do to make the concept of micro yeses easier, without actually doing the thing I think I need to do?

41:33 - Britt (Guest) That's such a good question. My brain first went to oh my God. I had no idea the impact of blood sugar on mental health until I started doing like glucose spike tracking.

41:44 And holy crap, I didn't use a monitor, I just paid attention and it was like I could not believe how out of whack my system was with all the blood sugar spikes and when I got my blood sugar stabilized. Stable, steady state is good with blood sugar I will say that it's not good with life, but with blood sugar it's great. But can you just focus on brain health? You know I'm going to go with no, because you can sit there and think about what you have to do all day long but, like, the solution to inaction is always action, not analysis. Stuck becomes unstuck the second you do anything and that's why micro yeses are so important, because they take you.

42:20 You're not going to veer off course if you're putting one shoe by the door, like, you're not going to mess up the whole game. So if you're taking stupid small steps, one you'll stay mobile and two, you'll be able to get real time feedback Like how does that feel? Am I okay? Okay, this is okay. So brain health, I think, is met by both like thinking, but also by doing. Sometimes we have to stop thinking and start doing.

42:44 - Chase (Host) I like that. Yeah, I'm a therapist saying that. What about building resilience through uncertainty? Talk a lot about resilience on the show. I really kind of boiled down, you know, the theme of ever forward to live a life. Ever forward is bringing awareness to key concepts of our physical and mental resilience. What do you mean by build resilience through uncertainty?

43:06 - Britt (Guest) Uncertainty like no one really likes it when it comes to our lives. Right, we want to know we're safe, we're loved, we have our money, we have our food, we have our water and, again, that's how our brains are designed. Our brains do not do well with uncertainty at all, and so part of being mentally well and resilient is understanding that certainty is not the goal. Like it's, it's not a good thing to focus. If you focus on optimizing your brain and your body, then you're going to decrease the likelihood that you're going to have a bad outcome but you're still not going to be certain because anything could happen.

43:41 So I have a dear friend, nicole Whiting. She's an ultra marathon runner. I don't know how this woman runs so many hundreds of miles, but her thing is we have to develop a confident relationship with uncertainty, and I want to smack her when she says that I love her, but I'm like I don't like that. I want certainty, but if you know that certainty is never going to be a guarantee, your brain hates uncertainty. So let's stop trying to solve for certainty and instead solve for choice, action, mobility and sustainable like do the things that that'll help.

44:13 - Chase (Host) That immediately makes me go to the world of entrepreneurship. I, that was a struggle I had and I'll speak to any entrepreneur out there. I'm sure you can relate. You get so focused At least I did I got so focused on establishing consistent certain things certainty and clients certainty and offers certainty and money, certainty and income. And the more that I focus on that, it just really it kind of spun the wheel of anxiety and worry. And just why isn't this sticking? Blah, blah, blah. And until I shifted into the life that I have chosen, the career that I have chosen by nature is uncertain. So if I'm going to stay here, I have to let go of this concept of certainty, I have to accept the certainty of uncertainty. And the second that I did, that it just the level of detachment that I had from all of those things that I thought I was supposed to keep. Just it went away.

45:09 - Britt (Guest) It frees up your bandwidth.

45:10 - Chase (Host) It frees up bandwidth and made me realize where I was staying attached to things that no longer served me, but also just where I was the most limiting factor in my work and in my business. Because you're so focused on certainty, you're missing opportunity.

45:23 - Britt (Guest) Oh, that's good. You're so focused on certainty that you're missing opportunity. Okay, that's really good.

45:28 - Chase (Host) That's like trademark chase tuning May 31st 2024.

45:34 - Britt (Guest) But when you know focusing on certainty also outsources all of your power to the outcomes outside yourself, versus sourcing your power from within. And so the more you do that it's you know like, the less you focus on the outcome and you focus on building your internal reservoir of power and agency and choice and capacity, the more likely you're going to get to the outcome that you want. Anyway. It's a great hack.

45:57 - Chase (Host) It's a great hack. And, you know, even another thing comes to mind for me is in relationships. How many of us stay in relationships and we get so attached to our significant other because it's a level and a form of certainty. And that can be a good thing. It's certainty of of comfort, of a shoulder to cry on, maybe a financial certainty, of whatever that looks like for you, but that's when we get the most hurt, when there's a problem, or you know, um, I get broken up with or divorced, or, and it's because we had so much, we put so much in the basket of certainty with the other person. That leaves so much uncertainty for ourselves.

46:34 We should be focusing on like what can I do with myself to maintain a certain level of certainty that I can always provide for myself, that I can always grow, that I can always have abundance, that I can always not need to have another person in my life but want another person in my?

46:49 - Britt (Guest) life. It's so awesome Like I'm married to a really awesome person and we have a healthy as much as humans can be healthy. Really it's very functional and he's great. And because I had spent my entire life in bad relationships, my brain went a little nuts in a good one, like what if it goes away? And like this is a healthy relationship and this is the first time we've ever been loved.

47:10 My poor therapist that first year was like okay this is what we're going to do when you have the but what if? Thoughts. The answer is not to gaslight yourself out of it, cause anything could happen. He could change, he could leave, he could die, like any who knows? The conversation is not no, no, no, that'll never happen, it's fine. The conversation is this validate the reality, then comfort the part of you. So that sounds like what if? Blah, blah, blah? That would suck, that would be so, so bad, and I will make sure that we are okay. Validate the fear, then set the reminder that the adult that you need is inside you Ultimately.

47:49 - Chase (Host) I love that it's good. I love that it's really good.

47:50 - Britt (Guest) Yeah.

47:51 - Chase (Host) She's good, everybody she's really good. Um, kind of getting close to the end here, a couple of things I want to hit on. Activating peak performance brain states have we already talked about that, or is there more specific response you can give us?

48:07 - Britt (Guest) It's so funny because, like just to be super real, the peak performance optimize, like that's all language that people will resonate with.

48:15 - Chase (Host) That's why I said it.

48:16 - Britt (Guest) Which is true.

48:17 - Chase (Host) You know I'm pulling a lot from your work and copy, so I mean well done to you and your team. I'll just say that.

48:23 - Britt (Guest) The reason I use those words is because we do want those things, but, like all of the things that you and I are talking about go so far beyond productivity and efficiency. It's like optimize your brain for efficiency.

48:35 It will when you do this work like you're going to be so much more productive and you're going to be able to knock out all of it.

48:40 Like, yeah, that's true too, but life is short and we're not just here to execute and, you know, create and produce.

48:48 It's like we want to live lives that feel like we're in charge of the meat suit we walk around in and we're making conscious choices to be the people we want to be and to have the people that we care about in our worlds and to not be constantly feeling at odds with our choices. So it's like, yes, optimize your brain for peak performance, because it's going to be good for your bottom line and the ROI is awesome and that's all true. But, like you know, it's about, like, enjoy the humaning that we have while we have it, cause it doesn't have to. And I say this is someone who, like life really sucked for a while, like, but it doesn't have to all of the time at the same level. And like I really like being a person All of the time at the same level. And like I really like being a person, even though I don't always. But like let's do this work so we can drive our own lives instead of being locked in the trunk of the car going 90 miles an hour.

49:36 - Chase (Host) And fifth, Hear, hear One last question before my last question. Yeah, I mentioned it earlier, but to ask you directly, how do we create and hold healthy boundaries? You also have kind of a follow up quote that I love about this quote. Rather than limit your nose, be mindful of your yeses.

49:56 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, that's good. So how do we create and hold healthy boundaries starts with inner work, because you will never be able to hold a healthy boundary if you're outsourcing your okayness to another person. Able to hold a healthy boundary if you're outsourcing your okayness to another person, if I am not okay without you, I am not going to say no, this is not okay with me ever. So first we've got to sort of relocate the power source as an internal. They call it the locus of control in the psych world we want an internal locus of control.

50:22 so then, instead of focusing on boundaries as I, won't, you can't, this isn't focus on boundaries are about won't, you can't, this isn't focus on. Boundaries are about what you're willing to say yes to. Like what do you want to say yes to? Because every yes that you say requires a no to something and our brains again, physiologically different things happen when I say no than when I say yes. Like, yes is sort of an expansive orientation, no is sort of a constrictive one. So think of boundaries less like you're saying no to that and more like you're saying yes to this, because that's better.

50:53 - Chase (Host) I really, really enjoyed that response, thank you. In a lot of ways. One is just it's a good reminder, um, so many times when I sit across the table or whatever the set is for the show, learning so much, continuously learning, and that's such a big reason why I do the show. But it's also just a great reminder to the things that I have found value in and what are tools in my toolbox for physical, mental resilience, especially coming from a professional. So, um, like it's good, I'm walking out of here with my chest up. Yeah, so, brit, I asked you this before. Yeah, I'm asking you again. Ever forward?

51:28 - Britt (Guest) those two words, yeah.

51:29 - Chase (Host) What do they mean to you? If I were to ask you how does brit frank live a life ever forward, what would she say?

51:36 - Britt (Guest) so I have like really like shiny, very quotable things I could say and totally they wouldn't be bullshit, but like the honest answer yeah, brit, here today, right now what did I say last time?

51:50 - Chase (Host) I don't like to tell okay, I'll share with you afterwards but beforehand I like, I like it to be organic and not comparison I feel so called out appropriately, so okay.

51:58 - Britt (Guest) So what does it mean to be ever forward is to just be honest with myself, about myself, without beating the crap out of myself in the process That'll get the job done almost every time.

52:10 - Chase (Host) It's never a wrong or right answer. It's just the one I want to hear and the one you need to hear. Maybe yourself that's true, yeah.

52:19 - Britt (Guest) They're all true, but that one's like the truthiest truth. It's like don't believe your own BS and it's not going to go anywhere.

52:25 - Chase (Host) good, Well, where can my audience go to connect with you and learn more about your work and amazing book and workbook and all that?

52:32 - Britt (Guest) Yeah, find me on Instagram, where I have terrible boundaries. I'm there all the time at Brit Frank Say hello, don't send me angry DMs, but if you want to say hi, I'll say hi back. My website, scienceofstuckcom, and the book the science of stuck and the gettingstuck workbook are both available wherever you buy books.

52:47 - Chase (Host) Well, mine are on my bookshelf at home. It's been there for a couple of years, excited to dive into the workbook. Thank you so much for coming back on the show and great to be with you in person here. Not just a 52-inch floating head like last time, but it was still great nonetheless.

53:00 - Britt (Guest) Thanks for having me on Welcome back anytime.

53:02 - Chase (Host) If you guys want to check out Britt's previous episode, I will link it for you down in the show notes and video notes. Again, that was episode 639, using anxiety and grief to your advantage and overcoming emotional regression. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to smash that thumbs up button, subscribe. Tell all your friends because I ain't stopping anytime soon. All right, Thank you, Britt.

53:22 - Britt (Guest) Thank you.

53:25 - Chase (Host) For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to EverForwardRadio.com