EFR 812: Mastering Respectful Disagreements to Go From Conflict to Collaboration with Justin Jones-Fosu

00:00 - Chase (Host) The following is an Operation Podcast production. We're looking good, hey, we're looking good hey.

00:07 - Justin (Guest) We're looking good, hey, that we can vehemently disagree with someone's ideology and yet still passionately pursue their humanity.

00:14 - Chase (Host) I respectfully disagree, Justin.

00:16 - Justin (Guest) I was like all right, how do I help people have these difficult conversations? Because it seems like we're continuing just to be more and more divided. So for me it's coming back to the heart of people that no matter who a person is, no matter what they believe, no matter how they identify, no matter what their background is, that they're worthy of value, dignity and respect. We know when we've disrespectfully agreed because internally we're like, yeah, I wouldn't do that or I think that's not a good idea, but then we don't say anything. Or how do we give people the heart to do this work, that it just becomes a part of who they are, not some transaction that they do in the midst of a disagreement? Right, I want this to be something that they keep learning, they keep moving ever forward in their lives. How do we create less unhealthy competition and more healthy collaboration?

01:02 - Chase (Host) This is.

01:03 - Justin (Guest) Justin Jones Fosu and we're talking about how do we make progress in more respectful disagreements. So make sure you stay tuned. It's going to be awesome. This is Ever Forward Radio.

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02:46 What's going on everybody? Welcome back to Ever Forward Radio. Thank you so much for tuning in with me here today. My name is Chase, I'm your host, but I'm also a guy, and I'm so excited to bring you yet another impactful episode for the masses, for everyone. But definitely stay tuned, because Justin Jones-Fosu and I talk about specifically a message for the guys out there as we are navigating through June 2024. It is National Men's Health Awareness Month and we definitely deliver on some key concepts and some struggles that guys probably have and ways to get through them stronger and more resilient than ever. Justin is a full time family man who also happens to be a highly sought-after business speaker, social entrepreneur and meaningful work researcher. He is the founder and CEO of Work Meaningful, where he combines over a decade of leadership in Fortune 500 companies, his real-life experience and research to help global organizations create new rhythms of sustainable excellence, profitability and engagement.

03:47 We are here to highlight work from his latest book. I Respectfully Disagree how to have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World, and that's because, frankly, divisions are on the rise around the world and 2024 may well be a peak year. We are losing the ability to disagree without dehumanizing. There is, in fact, a deep need for this practical and accessible guide to having challenging conversations in any situation, from the workplace to the classroom, to the dinner table, even out in the gym hanging with your boys. And that's because Justin believes it's not about saying the right words at the right time, but something vastly deeper. And in our conversation today, you're going to discover his five pillars of respectfully disagreeing. I don't want to give them all away here. You got to stay tuned to check them out, and this book and his conversation is truly a wide range of examples and exercises. This is something that you're going to want to go back to, listen, take notes, share out with a friend definitely sharing out with one person in your life that you think this might add value to would mean the world to me, would mean the world to Justin and truly help your community and your loved ones live a life ever forward. Justin brought the heat, he brought the flavor. He bought the East Coast vibe. You got to check out the video I'm having linked for you down in the show notes. You can always find it at everforwardradiocom or head to YouTube. Smash that thumbs up button. Like I said, just search Ever Forward Radio, but as always, I'm going to have the video and all the other links and content we talk about with Justin here today in the show notes under episode resources.

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06:57 I respectfully disagree, justin. What a way to start off a title, what a way to start off a podcast, what a way to start off a conversation. And I think a lot of people, especially if they're the ones on the receiving end of that you probably immediately go all right, this is not going to be a fun conversation. We're here to talk about how to have difficult conversations in a divided world. What do you mean by that?

07:25 - Justin (Guest) Man, I can give you the macro. Macro being like this difficult, like all the stuff we have going on with elections, right Territories, tribal situations, depending on where you are in the world, to what movie is the best movie? To who's the GOAT, michael Jordan or LeBron, which we both know the answer to that question. But like there's just so much conflict and I realize that a lot of people have started to lean out of difficult conversations rather than leaning in, and I've started to even notice myself doing the same thing, and so I want to challenge one. First, challenge myself to enlarge my circles of grace and having conversations with people I don't know a lot about or I disagree with. And then two to equip other people to be able to do the same. Because I just think that, you know, the statement I would make in a lot of my presentations was that we can vehemently disagree with someone's ideology and yet still passionately pursue their humanity, and people will come up to me afterwards like, oh my gosh, this is awesome, amazing. You know, like, pursue their humanity, and people come up to me afterwards like, oh my gosh, this is awesome, amazing.

08:32 But then it was like how do I do it? And then some people would try to trump me or like, oh, but what about this one? So for me, the book and the research and this mission I'm on is what's outpouring of people asking for more. And I didn't plan on writing this book. I was never like I think I plan on writing the next book or work to a different beat or something that you know one of my presentations. But I just kept hearing that more and more, and so I was like, all right, how do how do I help people have these difficult conversations? Because it seems like we're continuing just to be more and more divided. And so for me, it's coming back to the heart of people that no matter who a person is, no matter what they believe, no matter how they identify, no matter what their background is, that they're worthy of value, dignity, respect.

09:10 - Chase (Host) If someone just clicked on this podcast, they're listening, they're watching and they've never heard of you, me or the show before. Can you give them a reason why they should stick around? What lesson do you think they're going to really have learned by the end of this conversation?

09:26 - Justin (Guest) I think they'll learn practical ways to have conversations with people family members, teammates, workplace. That will help build more bridges to people rather than barriers from them. I mean, the research is staggering. Like 66% of people feel like they've encountered some aspect of conflict within the workplace. How many hours are wasted to workplace conflict? How many family gatherings are ruined because we don't know how to have these types of conversations and or how to set boundaries in the midst of these types of conversations? So I think people sticking around they'll appreciate the practicality, They'll appreciate the vulnerability because I'm going to share where I'm not coming at you like yo. I'm best. I don't ever like while writing. I respectfully disagree. In my writing retreat I disrespectfully disagreed with the person who was on my writing?

10:20 retreat- and I had to come back to my five pillars and it's like, oh man, I just operated from superior self. So, one, practicality, two, vulnerability, and three they'll save, I think, many more of their relationships in their lives and themselves. Right, because that's, at the end of the day, like even the boundary setting is a part of our respectful disagreement that we can save ourselves in the midst of not allowing us just to be consistently bullied or consistently trashed.

10:47 - Chase (Host) Let's go workplace first. I want to preface this by saying I firmly believe there's really nothing that matters more in the long term than the quality of our relationships. Let's go to the workplace relationships first. How is this different? Why does this matter? I might even say a little bit more in the workplace, this philosophy you talk about.

11:09 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, because you know you can't control the workplace. You know, even as a leader, right, when you're at home you're like I'm going to my room right, but when you're in a project with someone you can't be like, well, I'm not going to work on that project with that person. Because you're trying to solve a problem, you're trying to present a product, and so oftentimes you're thrown into the mix of people that you might not have chosen to be in the mix with Usually that's the case, and so that aspect is it's so important for those types of relationships to have honest conversations open.

11:43 So two things have been happening. I've noticed this trend. Either one, people have been coming highly volatile and or hostile in their conversations with people, right, and so it's like aggressive, like right. But another thing that I didn't you know, when we started off our research I didn't anticipate diving into this area was this place that we call disrespectful agreement. What's that? Um? So disrespectful agreement is where, um, it can happen in two ways. It's like, you know, oh, chase, like man, I think that's the greatest idea ever. And I'm like Chantel, I think what was Chase thinking? I think that's stupid, right, right, because, like I'm you know what some people may say gaslighting, but I'm like in your face, I'm like, oh man, you're, it's amazing, right, but behind closed, I don't. I'm like, why was he? I don't even know.

12:27 So that's first, or the second which has been interesting to explore. It's people who disagree but won't tell you, and not because they're trying to be malicious, is because they may have been, you know, grown up, and when they grew up in their household, they were told, like, children should be seen and not heard, right, yeah? Or groups that have been underutilized, underresourced, that feel like there's a hard power dynamic, and so a lot of those conversations can be challenging. So I've also seen people disrespectfully agree just to keep the peace, to not rock the boat, and so I get it and understand, because I've been in those positions as well. But for me this work is to help people like that to also have a voice and to gain a voice and to work through even issues of their own past to be able to to have more respectful disagreements.

13:24 - Chase (Host) When we disrespectfully agree. Is it more so for the benefit of ourself and our agenda, or is it more so um, I'm throwing you a bone here just so that we kind of you know downplay the situation a little bit, or or so that it doesn't escalate?

13:40 - Justin (Guest) Yes, it depends on a person, right.

13:43 I've had conversations and interviews with people who, um, they've done it not for their own self but because they wanted to preserve the mindset of the person Right.

13:55 I've had a wife that we interviewed who she's like?

13:58 I often disrespectfully agree with my husband because I'm the breadwinner and I'm the person in power, I bring in most of the income and I do this, and so I don't want him to feel less than or right, and so I'll just kind of go along, even though, like these disagreements are starting to build up until it gets to a boiling point, right, versus having having the conversations in a way that's helpful, relatable but can also be received to the best of the ability. So I think it's not always a selfish thing, but it can be right, because there's some people who will disrespectfully agree because they're trying to hold all their cars to themselves, right? So I'm not going to tell you about this and I'm going to bad mouth you behind your back because I'm trying to get the promotion. I'm trying to be seen as a good person. I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to be seen as a person who has the best information, right, and so I'm just going to insert these little negative things for you. So it depends on a person.

14:51 - Chase (Host) How would you kind of advise somebody to take inventory, to think back maybe on the last hard conversation they had or didn't have, and go? Did I disrespectfully agree? What is there like a checklist, a litmus test, to kind of become more aware of? Is this really in my life and in my workplace?

15:07 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, I think we all we know, when we've disrespectfully agreed because internally we're like, yeah, I wouldn't do that, or I think that's not a good idea, but then we don't say anything. And then often what we can sometimes do is we can then beat ourselves up for not saying anything, right? Or I should have said that in the meeting. Oh, I should. They offered to open up the door for me to share and give feedback and I didn't say anything because I was afraid of what people are going to say, afraid of people going to think. So I think it's kind of going back and kind of listening to that internal voice of like did you not say something because you were afraid to? Did you not say something because you were afraid to? Or and this is the heart of the matter, right, because you can give people, like, some practical tools for every conflict.

15:50 There's a lot of great books on conflict resolution. That's not this book, right? Our book is based on how do we give people the heart to do this work, that it just becomes a part of who they are, not some transaction that they do in the midst of a disagreement, right? I want this to be transaction that they do in the midst of a disagreement, right. I want this to be something that they keep learning, they keep moving ever forward in their lives about how do I become a person that leaves every interaction with a sense of value. So when people are assessing, like that hard conversation and like, did I disrespectfully disagree, did I disrespectfully agree, we know, and then sometimes we can sense when people kind of pull away and sometimes even when people get defensive, right, because I've noticed that.

16:33 Let me give you a practical example. So recently I was talking to my wife and we're talking about we just got married, so she's moving down and from from New Jersey to Charlotte, and I remember like I started noticing I was driving the conversations, right. I was like, oh, you know, like what's the dates we're doing? We need a moving truck. You know what are we doing about the kids, right, you know all these things. And she started expressing some sense of feeling overwhelmed because it was shifts in her, you know, shifting things going on at work and shifts as relates to her moving and all these things. And I realized I wasn't, I wasn't honoring that, and so as I got in the conversation, I know I started noticing getting contentious, right, and so it's like now I'm contentious. And she's contentious, she's getting defensive and she's like I feel overwhelmed and I'm like, well, you know, we have a lot to do and plan. And I got off the call and I felt horrible and ego in check because I was starting to operate for my superior self.

17:28 - Chase (Host) Yeah, yeah, yeah, even though you're trying to just assist, trying to show up, trying to, you know, take leadership in a way, but it's really the method.

17:39 - Justin (Guest) A hundred percent. And so I called her back and I was very solemn. I was like hey baby, hey baby. I was like the boy's, the man, like hey baby. You know, last time I saw you know.

17:49 - Chase (Host) but this is how you know you got to East coast. How many minutes does it take before the first boy's the man reference.

17:59 - Justin (Guest) But I remember calling her. I was like yo, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, like one, I'm sorry, um, and I asked, like what would make you feel heard in this situation?

18:09 - Chase (Host) Ooh can you go back and say that question again please?

18:11 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, what would make you feel heard in this situation? And she said that you'd listen to me, um, without you know kind of judging where things are, and that you'd really kind of hear my perspective. And so I asked her I was like, hey, when you come back, when you're driving back from work, I'd like to just hear your perspective, without me inserting my own, without me inserting my perspective, my opinion. I want, I want to just hear what you have to say. I was already amped up from our conversation and realizing, like man, I didn't honor her, didn't respect her in this moment, didn't respect her truth, her reality. You know, like what if she's overwhelmed, what if I'm just adding to that overwhelm by continuing to drive, drive, drive, even though I have a good intent, but my impact is horrible, by continuing to drive, drive, drive, even though I have a good intent, but my impact is horrible. So those are like the practical things, right, just in the everyday moment of I knew, in that moment I sucked, yeah and I had to rectify it.

19:19 - Chase (Host) Do you think there's more work to be done on this subject matter for men compared to women, more work to be done on this subject matter for men compared to women? Cause I feel like in that story, at least in that example, male natural tendencies. At least I hear in your story and I can recall a lot of interactions with my wife and other people. You know we were trying to problem solve, we're trying to drive, we're trying to just. I hear a problem, let me work on a solution, but that's not always what the situation needs or the other person wants.

19:46 - Justin (Guest) If I spoke from macro, because I think every individual is different, I think different people have feminine and masculine energy, but, like, of course, I do think I mean that's a really good question I think that it happens on different sides, right Based upon how society has conditioned us Right, based upon how society has conditioned us Right. So I think men have been many times conditioned to be those problem solvers, to be those people who are coming to the quick solution, and so we can operate easier in that, because of how we've been conditioned Right Versus, at times, from a macro sense, you know, women have normally been considered nurturers and relational, and so people that are just about getting along. So men at times are encouraged to be, you know, callous, to be like cutthroat at times, to be competitive, right, rather than women are taught many, many times to be collaborative, to work together right, and so I think how disagreements occur might be different. So you might see more aggressive disagreements from men, um, rather, you might see more disrespectful agreement from women.

21:00 From a macro perspective, right, and that's just been the conversations that I've had where, like you know, when I was talking to one of my people, I interviewed Darcy, she was like, yeah, like a lot of women, can struggle with this Not only, not only at home at times, but in the workplace. Right Because of if you're aggressive, you're called to be right, but the same aggression that a man could do, especially in the workplace Right, but the same aggression that a man could do especially in the workplace, right, but in the same aggression a man could do um it's.

21:29 It's seen as oh, that person's really competitive yeah.

21:33 - Chase (Host) So go go, get it Right and so team player.

21:36 - Justin (Guest) Team player right Like a person's passionate right. Uh, no Right.

21:40 - Chase (Host) No, they're just. They're just being a dick, right, I mean, there's I think there's a really a lot of people probably camouflage selfishness with being a go-getter, yeah, especially in the workplace.

21:54 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, yeah, I would agree. For some people, it's what we're taught to Right. That's one of the things for me. You know that, as I started doing this work and even diving deeper into the book of like, a picture of our past is one of our key chapters, because we don't often take inventory of our past how we've grown up, how we saw disagreement modeled in our household, what are the traumas and things we've been through that have actually impacted how we disagree. For me as a young lad, I remember that I was physically abused by my brother, who was eight years older than me and I was six and 14. There were times where I'd like wake up off the bed because my brother hit me so hard in the jaw and my mouth was filled with blood. That's different.

22:41 - Chase (Host) That type. You know what I'm saying. So like real physical and emotional abuse mouth is filled with blood.

22:43 - Justin (Guest) That's different, that type you know what I'm saying. So, like real physical and emotional abuse. And, um, when I got as I got older, I was a very aggressive, uh, disagreeer, because I was no longer going to be that little kid who couldn't fend for himself. You're never going to be caught off guard, right, I'm going to come at you before you come at me, right? And so, like I had to work through that with my therapist, I had to work through that with a lot of, you know, self-awareness and, first of all, plug for therapy. I love therapy, it's amazing.

23:08 - Chase (Host) I'm back in therapy regularly for the first time in years Crucial, crucial.

23:13 - Justin (Guest) Congratulations, thank you, and my encouragement to be ever forward is to never stop. We may change the frequency of it, but I'll never stop going to therapy. And it's not because that there's something wrong with me, even though my kids might say something different, but it's because I want to keep things going Right, absolutely, and it keeps me consistently growing Right and so um. So my therapist has helped me to really work through like understanding aspects of my past and how they've impacted how I show up today.

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25:21 I think now we're talking about reflecting back on your past and your childhood, because that's really where we learn and unlearn so many patterns, limiting beliefs, framework for our life. Yeah, where do you think we stop learning how to be collaborative? Because I feel personally like it's more natural and more innate to be collaborative. Yeah, especially as children, we all just want to play together, kind of find our little circle, and then somewhere along the line we stop being collaborative.

25:50 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, there's three main places and it could happen differently depending on what situation you're in. One could be our household, where we're taught to be the best right Not to be better, but to be the best right, and sometimes the best can convey. I can put you down as I strive to be the best right. Um, so that's one. Two, our educational system. Oh it, it. It teaches that I was going through with actually, one of the few jobs I applied for and didn't get, um, but uh, it's an organization and you know harvard guy and you know he brought us in to do an experience interview. That's a really profound experience where he gave us, like I forgot what these things are called for lack of better terms, like some people, call them Chinese balls.

26:39 - Chase (Host) Yeah, yeah.

26:39 - Justin (Guest) They're kind of like the heavy stainless steel balls yeah, heavy stainless steel right, and so you know.

26:43 So he Stress relief balls. Yes, he puts in groups, right. So it was like three groups and he was like, okay, what we're going to do is I want you to see how fast you can do this and then reverse it. And then use your non-dominant hand and do it and then reverse it. If you drop it, you're out right, and we'll see who wins. Right, and so the groups. I naturally won my group, and so we're doing it. We're trying to psych people out.

27:07 And we're like, oh yeah, you can't do it, oh, don't drop it. And we're doing all this, and then the three people will compete against each other, right? And we thought that was cool, right, that's natural. But then later on in the day he shifted it and he was like, okay, what I want you to do? Same groups, but instead I want you to collaborate with each other. If you know how to do it, I want you, I give you permission and liberty to help somebody who does it, and if you don't know how, I give you permission and liberty to ask. And if you drop it, pick it back up, get better.

27:45 And, oh my gosh, the atmosphere before it was like contentious and you're trying to excite people out. We were doing the Congo line. I mean, we were like dancing around doing the ball, and I was like, oh my gosh. He was like this is what the education system should be like. But it's like, because we rank students and we're like your first, your second, your third, your fourth, it's like you take that student who was first in elementary school and you put a middle school and that's maybe a tougher school, and they may be fifth, and then they start not wanting to answer questions because they want to be perceived as stupid. And you take them to high school to put them in the best high schools. You know that number one student from middle school and now they may be not as smart as they were from middle school and now they want to. They don't want to answer questions, they stop raising their hands because they don't want to be perceived as stupid. Then you take them to college and it's like all the way to the workplace, right About promotion and things.

28:39 And his message was about how do we create less unhealthy competition and more healthy collaboration, because it actually can help us to become better. And this is the same you know I was working with with a fortune 50 company, um, around the book, and that question came up after the one that said at the end of one of the sessions they're like, but we're taught to go after promotions, I'm taught to be the person who has the answer. I'm taught to be and that's where I was challenging, encouraging back to leadership of what do we value? Do we value that one person that might have a good answer today, or do we value the collective, that how we can grow together, which is why we shift as leaders. Like, one of the things you know I talk about drumming because I love drumming is when we're individual contributors.

29:22 - Chase (Host) I love when you bring people up on stage and do this. I've seen your talks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:26 - Justin (Guest) It's lit. But when we do the drumming, you're like ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. You know you're drumming and you're like how do I create the best beat? But when you're taught to be a leader, you're now shifting to just keeping rhythm. That's our job now. It's to encourage the beats in others, but because we're so used to being individual contributors, giving our own beat, that even now we get in leadership, we do the same thing Right, and so that's one of the things that, from a workplace perspective, we need to do a better job of creating that space where we talk about a lot more about collaboration, where we ask the questions about friction, where, for me I say this for leaders and myself and my own team I'm like I want you to prove me wrong.

30:04 I want you to show me how, what, what I'm saying is wrong, how what I'm saying is off, what's missing? How do we get to C? Right, we talk about you know it's not about A or B but how do we create something together? Because I can give you something, but it may not be the best.

30:18 - Chase (Host) What do you mean by that exactly? How do we get to C?

30:20 - Justin (Guest) So when I did my MBA, I had one of those really cool professors who was like Dead Poets Society, late Robin Williams, likepe Diem Right, and he would have you sit in the middle of the room and like do nothing for 10 minutes and write a 10-page paper about it. Like that was just a different type of guy, but he had me. He had us read one of the best books I've ever read. It was called Dialogue the Art of Thinking Together and I have to write this down.

30:48 Yes, powerful powerful, powerful book. But in in dialogue, his whole premise is it's not about a, because most people's, like you know, say me, you're representing, I'm representing, a chase, you're representing b, I'm trying to convince you of a, you're trying to convince me of b. But his whole premise is what if we create a, c together? What if c and c is not 50. C could sometimes be 95-5. C can sometimes be 35-65. But it's what do we create? That's more than just us. Coming back to this drumming reference, I've been to drumming performances. I love drumming performances. They're great. I'm not a part of it. It's great to watch, but it's different when you're in a drum circle, because you're actually helping to create the sounds and the experiences that people feel and you're more part of it. That's where I feel like not only our society but our workplaces can be more like drum circles, but we've created and conditioned people to be more like drum performers.

31:41 - Chase (Host) I think that's such a huge point to kind of wrap up this section around the workplace especially, it's the level to which we feel seen, heard and that our contributions matter. Maybe I'm just venting about my last job, when I it didn't really matter the position that I held, it didn't matter if I, you know, when I was at entry level, when I started, or when I was at the director level, when I left, the degree to which I felt seen, heard, heard and that my contributions mattered. I felt when it, when that was met, it didn't matter my role Right Cause I was, I was being just like, so honored and I was also able to honor the work of other people and I had such a immediate connection, deep connection, to like the overall mission.

32:26 You know I worked in healthcare.

32:27 - Justin (Guest) I was a health coach, so like I'm dealing with people's lives, and I think you could carry that over into any profession.

32:32 - Chase (Host) Yes, no matter what your role is, if you feel seen and you feel heard and at the end of the day, that project comes across the desk and gets implemented and there's contribution across the board. Like bro, you won. Yes, Everybody won.

32:53 - Justin (Guest) I agree, and that's up to us as leaders and companies to create that space where people feel that aspect of contribution value. It's up to us to start breaking down some of those silos of you. Know this one person performs Right. I love Brian Peck. Brian Peck was. I did an internship with Enterprise Rent-A-Car right out of high school and I remember Brian Peck was not the best salesperson, Brian Peck was not the best person to sell the insurance and all this kind of stuff. Brian Peck was the best relational person.

33:20 - Chase (Host) Was he the founder of Enterprise? No, no, he wasn't.

33:22 - Justin (Guest) So Brian Peck was my branch manager.

33:25 - Chase (Host) Oh, excuse me, Okay, so he Shout out Brian Peck. Yeah, shout out Brian Peck. Yeah, shout out Brian.

33:28 - Justin (Guest) Peck, you're dope, but Brian Peck, he had the most other branch managers that came out of his branch, not because he was the best, but because he created a place where it was collaborative and that people thrived, and so people were willing to help others and when somebody didn't know something, they didn't withhold it because it's not a competition Right, and they helped each other.

33:50 And so out of this branch came all these branch managers. Because he created that culture, he started breaking down some of those things like no, I want you to help and, by the way, like I'm going to award you. When you help, right, even something as simple as in the meeting, and somebody shares something that's different than someone else's, it could be like, hey, chase, thank you so much for sharing that. You're helping us to actually get somewhere higher than where we currently are, absolutely Right. And so those are the things as leaders that can actually help shape our cultures. But it's these small things that people are paying attention to. Because, back to your value point, back to your contribution, if I'm in a meeting and I say something and I immediately just boom, shut it down, and that's happening over and over and over again, why am I going to keep bringing stuff up in a meeting. I'm going to stop contributing yeah 100% Versus.

34:36 I'm like even the nice finesse of a leader of a band say hey, I appreciate that, justin, I can see how you get there, so tell me how would you address it with X, right, because you're the leader.

34:47 - Chase (Host) You're thinking about this already right, you've already thought down the line.

34:50 - Justin (Guest) And now you're starting to have this conversation where you're people feel like what they're sharing is actually being taken seriously. No one expects that. Well, most people don't expect that everything they say is going to be the thing that's implemented. They just want to know you're taking it seriously.

35:09 - Chase (Host) So, um, I agree with you, man, we got work to do To shift gears a little bit. You've got this story about your mom and this kind of philosophy she passed back about never leaving home base. Yeah, and what she witnessed being the first female air traffic control operator in the Air Force right Close One of the first black female air traffic controllers.

35:26 - Justin (Guest) Okay, yeah.

35:27 - Chase (Host) Even more amazing. Yes. Female air traffic controllers yeah, even more amazing. Yes. And when I heard this concept, man, it just it hit. It hit so close to home because when I give really any advice or talk about ways, about growth, things that have helped me, it's just getting out of my own world. So many people stay stuck in their own world for a lot of different reasons. You know nature nurture uh, privilege, socioeconomic status, but I, but I believe at the end of the day it really comes down to choice.

35:55 - Justin (Guest) Yeah.

35:55 - Chase (Host) You know people choose to stay stuck quite literally geographically, and not knocking anybody that stays in their hometown and their own zip code. But just get out a little bit, go out of your world and see the rest of the world that's happening. Can you kind of expand on this for us please, the story of never leaving home base and why it matters?

36:12 - Justin (Guest) Yeah. So what I loved about my mom we think we're so smart and as I wrote the last book in this book, you know, you start, oh, I'm, I'm pretty smart, I know what's going on, and I started we're like, where did this come from? Like, where did this whole philosophy of kind of learning about people respecting people? And it came from my mom because when we were young, I remember growing up and we didn't have a lot of money, we had a stint of being unhoused and being on welfare and I remember like my mom would still like she took us to Salvation Army, get our clothes before it became cool, right, and go get like sweater, vests and bow ties, because she was trying to create a Boyz II Men group.

36:48 Before vintage was a thing right, boyz II Men back again right.

36:51 - Chase (Host) Second reference I'm a Fuliai Harmony guy, yeah right.

36:55 - Justin (Guest) Oh, dad. But I remember that we would go to Oktoberfest and we would go to Polish festivals and Hispanic Heritage Month events. My mom would take us to these events and even stuff that we disagreed with and I was like, why are we even here? And I remember when I interviewed my mom for the book and asked her this question, like what brought you to this place? And she was like Justin, like there were times where I was stationed in Japan, so my mom talking for two years and she was like there's some soldiers who, in that same two-year time frame, never left base.

37:26 - Chase (Host) We call those at least in my time in the army we called them barracks rats.

37:29 - Justin (Guest) Yes, Yep, and I didn't know that term but thank you for sharing that.

37:33 - Chase (Host) But yeah, like they just never leave.

37:35 - Justin (Guest) They never left Right and they had the ability to right. There's some people who don't, but they had the ability to. And she was like I never want you and your brother to be like that, to never leave, to not leave your home base, not get to experience the beauty of the people and cultures around you. And so she was intentional about planting those seeds in us to leaving home base so that we could experience difference, culture, people, even people we disagreed with. And so I noticed I wasn't leaning into that you know, you give me around 2018, 2019, even into the pandemic and which actually exacerbated that even more because people started confining even more self to their what I call circles of comfort, and I was doing the same thing.

38:19 I was confining myself to people who believe like me, thought like me, and I realized I wasn't living up to the ideals of my mom, and so I created this concept called at the time. It's called the six month challenge that we now call the circles of grace challenge, which is a very practical way to lean into. This is every six months, and now sometimes vastly between six months and a year, I challenge myself to identify a topic or area that I want to dive deeper into, and so I go to events, I engage in experiences or engage with people in either, which I don't know a lot about or I disagree with, and either, which I don't know a lot about or I disagree with.

38:49 - Chase (Host) Is this at random? Or you just kind of you realize I don't know a lot about this and so I'm going to dive deeper, or do you kind of just pick a place on the map and go? I'm going to go to this conference.

38:56 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, so no, it's an area that I want to develop and grow in, right, and so it could be something that I just don't know a lot about or something that could be antagonizing for me. So it's been everything from uh for me, learning how I can be a better advocate for women in the workplace Right, and so I started talking to my friends, having conversations how can men do this? I started reading articles, reading books, looking at Harvard business review stuff and like all these things so I can be a better advocate. But it's also been a time where it was police officers Right, and so I chose to talk to some of my police friends and did a police ride along in Charlotte late at night, right, and so what was that like? We're asking way too much for police officers. I developed a greater sense of empathy for police officers because they're in that three hours time frame. I saw them being asked to be security guards, to be mental health professionals, to being bouncers, to being being people policing, to being Uber driver.

39:55 - Chase (Host) I mean I literally?

39:57 - Justin (Guest) saw like domestic violence. I saw so many things were asked. I was like this seems very unfair because I can't imagine what type of training a person would get to be able to do all of this. Right, so one, I developed a deeper sense of empathy for police officers. The second thing, which is on the other side, it wasn't as good.

40:16 I remember I was at the police ride along thing. I got there at 10 pm, was there with a group of people, the police officers. They're downloading the day, all that kind of stuff. You know, my friend introduced me to all the police officers. So I, the kind of stuff he's. You know, my, my friend is introducing me to all the police officers.

40:31 Um, so I meet all of them and so we're at this one spot gas station. I'm in plain clothes, right, um, and we're at the gas station. Seems like somebody may have been a stolen you know, mercedes, you know, because the license plate. Right, so a lot of police officers. First, I'm like why there's a lot of police officers are still nice plate, like five or six cars there, and I'm just like why? Why the police officer? So I'm just standing over here talking to the police officers in my you know my puffy coat and my northeast um, and he's regular clothes, and one of the guys he's like, hey, um, you, might you mind taking your hands out your pocket please? The police officers? I'm like I look at you know my guy young blood yeah, I'm looking at my guy, young blood who's?

41:08 um, you know my guy Youngblood.

41:08 Yeah, I'm looking at my guy Youngblood. Who's? You know my friend who's going to ride along? I'm like I think this guy is this guy joking? Like why is he asking me? And he's like, hey, do you mind taking your hands out of your pocket? And I was like okay. So I took my hands out of my pocket. He was like oh, okay, You're. And I started thinking I thought he was joking.

41:29 Initially. I was like started having a question. I was like so I was going to test my theory. I was like, man, I really enjoyed at the, you know, at the police station, when we, you know, had the pizza Y'all get pizza every time at the police station. And he was like, oh, I forgot, your Youngbloods ride along. And so it started going through my mind.

41:49 I started wondering questions. I was like, okay, this is a black guy who's sitting there talking to police officers and playing clothes. At some point he thought I was with them, the other people, and so he, from a safety perspective, asked me to take my hands on my pocket. And so like that was a very weird moment because I wondered to myself if I didn't comply, if I thought he was joking if this would have been a different outcome. I don't know, I'm the benefit of doubt person, so I'm going to hopefully say no, that it would have been a different outcome. But I was just like that's interesting and that's why I'm all about how do we cultivate friendships, how do we build friendships. Did he look at this guy who has a beanie on his head, puffy jacket, jeans on, as a potential threat, rather than?

42:33 I just met this guy, like two hours ago at the ride along at the police station, so it was a very interesting. I remember I went home and cried because I thought about the potential of what would have happened, what could have happened, yeah, and so and I know I get, I'm the benefit of the doubt person and so I'm like you know, I don't, you know, not even when he apologized profusely about it and they gave him. They gave him hell about that. All the police officers gave him hell about that. They're like, bro, you just met this guy, Like why do you think he? But I think it's OK, you know, but but internally I disrespectfully agreed, yeah, I realized I was like, oh, it's OK, you know, but then I went home and cried.

43:14 So then, what about respectfully disagreeing? Yes, so respectful disagreement doesn't mean I agree with you. It doesn't mean that, obviously. It doesn't mean that I'm 100 percent on board with what you're saying. It just means I leave you fully acknowledged, right. And so we have five pillars. And so the last pillar, pillar five, is agree to respect, and it's always our choice. So we one thing we've realized is that everybody defines respect differently, so we had to debunk some of these societal definitions of respect. Like respect is earned, we start asking why? Why does respect have to be earned? Why can't respect freely be given? Because you choose to give it to someone?

43:50 One of my favorite books, man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, powerful book, where he talks about this you always have a choice, right? This is a guy who's a Holocaust survivor and in the Holocaust times he's talking about, I still have a choice. No matter in the most horrific of times you're going through, I have a choice of how I choose to respond. And that just blew my mind. And so, even with respect, we have the choice to give it to people, period. How do we give it to people? We fully acknowledge them, right?

44:17 Let me give you some examples. You may say something that I may disagree with, and I have two choices I can either share with you that I disagree with you or I don't have to right, sometimes we feel like we always have to say something we know. I just fully acknowledge you, chase. You mentioned three things. Number two is something that's really interesting. Can you tell me more about that? All right, wow, I can tell this was a hard conversation for us to have today. Chase, I really appreciate you leading in today and those three things. I never once said I agree with you, but I yeah, but I yeah.

44:58 I acknowledge that you shared, I acknowledge your perspective, I acknowledge, I fully acknowledge you and that's one way we call it the three of a framework, right that that I can fully acknowledge you, whether a hundred percent agree, a hundred percent disagree or partially agree. She came up with thank you because, right, she's like this. I can say thank you because and tell you why. But she's like we normally say no because Right, no because I think you're stupid, no because that's a dumb idea, no because we want to be heard.

45:30 - Chase (Host) Yeah, so our point, yeah.

45:32 - Justin (Guest) So we can always fully acknowledge someone. So that's the place of choice of. Is that I can choose to respect you?

45:37 - Chase (Host) So is there a better time and place to say nothing, then, or is there always room to say something in this kind of lens of respect?

45:49 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, that's a gray space and it's going to be up to that person, because everybody's built differently and things matter differently to people. Someone was talking to me about, say, afterlife, right About. I think they were bringing up something about why they believe that we come back as, like, butterflies and different things like that. Now, that's not something I believe, but as I was listening, I was practicing my power of three. I was listening to the third degree. I was like tell me more about that. Or, oh, where did you, when did you first come to that understanding? Or I was just exploring and getting a better understanding of their perspective and I was like, hey, thank you so much for sharing. That's it.

46:22 I didn't have to say well, let me tell you what I believe right, because, one, it wasn't that important to me, right? In the sense of like, why do I need to share what I believe? It's not about having, it's not about winning, right, and that's why, unfortunately, we come to these conversations that I have to win, rather than just having a conversation, having a dialogue. So it wasn't important to me, but when it is, when something is important to you, there's two important things that I would encourage people to consider. Number one is first, asking if you can share your perspective, and I know that's counter, you know, countercultural to our society today. Well, I mean, I don't have to ask. I can just go on social media and post what I believe right, and that's one of the challenges and dangers of social media.

47:05 But as you're engaging with real people, I may say hey, chase, you know, thank you for sharing your perspective. Like, I better understand how you got there. Would you be open to me sharing mine? Why does that matter so much? And also, I love the how you kind of put that as the first thing. Yeah, because, um, two things happen. One is, I'm allowing you psychologically to open up, to receive what I'm about to share, right, um, and so you can, you're not making a decision and you are essentially in control.

47:34 - Chase (Host) I'm not being told anything. I have given you permission Correct, given you permission to kind of reciprocate, yeah.

47:41 - Justin (Guest) Now, normally people say yes, right. So if they say yes, now I'm sharing. But I share what? In the research of conversational receptiveness? They talk about hedging your claims. So I'm not going to say, well, I think always this happens. I'm, like you know, normally one of the things I see, right. So hedging your claims has been proven to be a part of great conversations. But if you say no, why am I wasting my breath anyway? Right, who says no? Yeah, I've had people say no, and it's normally people who are. They've just spent about 15 minutes telling me about their perspective and they've gotten amped up about it, and so if they feel like I'm gonna have a differing perspective, they don't want to hear it. That's gotta just be narcissists. It could be, or it could just be people who may have had a really challenging situation earlier and they're already amped up, right. So a lot of things impact people in different ways. So I don't I'm not going to speak to that, but Help us navigate when someone says no.

48:31 Oh, so I'm going to tell you old Justin and new Justin. So old Justin was like fine, then, all right, who cares? Right, and I would burn the bridge, right. I was like, well, cool, all right, you don't want to hear my perspective, we don't need to talk anymore. Newer Justin all right, still something I'm working towards. So I'm not perfect at this. I try to keep the bridge open. So if you were to say no to me, chase, I'm like well thanks, in the future I'd love to share my perspective. If you're ever open to hearing my perspective in the future, I'd love to come back to that. So just let me know Now, may not?

49:06 - Chase (Host) be a good time. So it's kind of detaching from the present and just trying to think about an opportunity down the road to revisit this. So it's really kind of, I think de-escalating the emotion in the situation and being able to see like, oh, it might not be now, but there is a potential future where this could happen.

49:23 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, because, think about it, if that person is ramped up emotionally and all the things are going on in their brain, right, and all the things are are happening and they're moving to this fight or flight, if I then reinforce that with well, forget you, then Right, right, then even if they wanted to come back, yeah, it's going to be so much harder because of ego. You kind of just sealed that right. You're like okay, all right, and they're like all right, cool I'm good, that's the last thing they're going to remember.

49:47 - Chase (Host) That's the last thing you're going to remember. But, yeah, that's really powerful if you think about. Let's say, you told me no, yeah, when I asked permission to kind of talk back or to tell you my side, and then I immediately left the situation by thinking future. Yeah, you're going to remember that, instead of just us parting ways and just being stuck in our ways, yeah.

50:08 - Justin (Guest) Cause I may feel and again, I can't control anybody else but I do want to create a space where people feel that they can come back If they felt like man, cause we think about it. You and I have had these situations where we may have said something and afterwards we felt like horrible about it, Absolutely, or we were like man, ooh, I was trying to win that conversation. I may have even lied about saying X, right, like, yeah, I saw on the TV that, and like I didn't see anything on the TV and people do that, right, yeah, but it's harder to come back if we don't leave the bridge open, right, and that's hard. I'm not saying it's easy because we were in a society now where it's about matching energy, right, um, and it's like I got to match your energy. So if you come for me, I'm coming for you, right, and it's been that. But I want to share this story because I think it's really powerful and this is the thing that's helped cement how I choose to move is one of my former colleagues is a former skinhead and you know I was really interested in the story and make a long story short, I was like how'd you, how'd you get out, bro, and you know, for those who don't know what skinhead is misogynist, racist.

51:15 You know very, very harmful views on many things. And he was like Justin I loved when people called me names. He's like I love that Fueled me. He's like we love that when people like are calling us misogynists and bigots, like you think that does something to us. He's like we love that.

51:31 He's like the seeds of change that were planted in me were the very same people that I disrespected and demeaned, who still chose to respect me. He's demeaned who still chose to respect me. And he's like they'll never know that. Wow, yeah, yeah, he's like they'll never know that because, like that's not his circle. But he's like he got finally got to a point where he couldn't compute continuing to disrespect the very people who were choosing to still respect him, and he was like those were the seeds of change that actually were helpful and catalyst for me to to shift. Damn. So what if, in our conversations, were simply seed planters? It's not about that moment, but because we're in a microwave society, we want for you to change your perspective because I said something right now rather than saying, well, maybe I'm just a seed planter for this person.

52:14 - Chase (Host) That's the mindset shift of I need to be, want to be right right now, versus being the bigger person and going. I have an opportunity to still make this situation right or at least get us to a collaborative not even us, this person, in any opposing viewpoint to a collaborative perspective by me choosing to do that instead. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's how you, that's how you win, that's how you win. I think, yeah, I mean yeah.

52:41 - Justin (Guest) That's how you, that's how you win, that's how you win. I think yeah. And then when you realize like in that moment I can still I've shown that person respect, yeah Right, it's not because they deserve it and how often do they maybe get that? Right. It's not because they earned it, it's not because they showed it to me first. It's because I've made a conscious decision that they, as a human being, are worthy of value, dignity and respect.

53:03 - Chase (Host) You also have this point about seek to be more interested than interesting. Yeah, I love that I love that you get.

53:12 - Justin (Guest) Oh, you buy a Chantel.

53:13 - Chase (Host) I'm telling you Walk us through this concept, because I mean immediately that just that hit. I dropped it in a quote here.

53:21 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, the reason this is so important. And, and again back to your point about nature and nurture, I don't know which came for me, but I hate networking events because they feel very transactional. Um, it's what, what do you do? Where do you work? Right?

53:37 - Chase (Host) Which is really what can you do for me?

53:39 - Justin (Guest) correct, right, and so I start. I have fun. I start creating fictitious stories of, like, what I do. I'm different things, different people. I sometimes I'm a stripper, right. Um, you know I'm a custodial staff member. You know I'm a technology guru, right. I just start having fun, right, because it becomes fun for me.

53:58 But I enjoy conversations where it's transformational and it's more. It's less about what you do and more about who you are, and so seek to be more interested than interesting. A lot of people are spending a lot of time trying to prove their worth to people, right, it's. They're trying to be interesting rather than and I realized this from my own journey I spent so much time trying to prove my worth that I lost precious opportunities of simply being my worth, and you can't do both. If I'm trying to prove it to you, I can't rest in being. It's one of the reasons that a lot of people will talk about. When you're taking pictures, like when you're going on a vacation, like sometimes just don't bring out the camera because you can't enjoy at the same time you're taking the picture.

54:42 - Chase (Host) I feel the same way at like concerts. I'm like just be here.

54:48 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, and I get it. You want to capture?

54:50 - Chase (Host) the moment Right.

54:51 - Justin (Guest) And I'm not anti cameras, anything like that clip.

54:54 - Chase (Host) But people that just literally drain their battery the whole time. I'm like like you're living on a seven inch screen when you got the whole freaking stage and just, and I did this.

55:03 - Justin (Guest) I recently, um did a five-day backpacking trick and pad backpacking trip in patagonia and I told myself one day is going to be a camera free day. Right, and I didn't bring on my camera often you got there's some points and, man, I almost regretted that decision because I don't know it. It was called the French Valley and it was the most picturesque thing that I said. But guess what I had to do? Because I said no camera day, I sat down on a rock and for 30 minutes I just was present.

55:30 - Chase (Host) Wow, just taking it all in, just taking it in.

55:32 - Justin (Guest) I was burning the image in my eyes because I was like I don't have a picture of it, and it was one of the most memorable times of the trip because I was just present. And I think that's the thing for us with people is that when we seek to be more interested, when I'm asking you questions and I'm interested in you, right, and you may say, well, justin, well, how do I do that? Because some people they're like I am interested in people, but they ended up taking control. Some people they're like I am interested in people, but they ended up taking control, because what we found in just normal communication people are trying to make connections with people. So if I said, hey, chase, I had this really great steak you know went to this awesome steak restaurant yesterday.

56:18 - Chase (Host) Well, most people's response is but have you been to this one? Yeah, but let me one up Exactly, and it's not intentional, but it's like oh, oh, have you been to this one?

56:24 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, but let me one up Exactly, and it's not intentional, but it's like oh, oh, you went to a great steakhouse I did too Versus saying what made that steakhouse the best for you? Oh well, da, da, da, da, oh. But that's what we call the power of three. So back to the point where I said well, it would be helpful, practical. We listen normally to the power of one or power of two. Where power of one is like how are you doing today? Oh, I'm great. Oh, I'm great too. Power of one, stop, it's done. Power of two how are you doing today? How are you doing today? I'm great. Oh, what makes you great?

56:59 Oh, I heard this interesting box speaker. What made it interesting to you? I've just gotten to the third level and we've conditioned people in our society that we're so surface level in our conversations that people don't even think most people that people really even care. So what if we chose to take the position to seek to be more interested in people, to hear people's stories, to go out of our garages, our condos, our apartments and say, hey, like I've seen you here a couple of times, I love what brought you here. Are you from California? You know you're from New York, you're from. You know Charlotte, Like, oh, and start having these conversations. If you don't know what to say, use these three words Tell me more, right, because often have people stop short of telling you everything because they're like, well, did I talk too much? Too much? Yeah, yeah, right. So tell me more, or tell me more about that. So those are ways I think we can practically seek to be more interested.

57:52 - Chase (Host) Power of three tell me more to allow a person to to really share fully? Can you share with us a recent example or a more top of mind example, when you yourself have been the most challenged to to implement these things that you talk about and help others do as well?

58:12 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, um, and so I'll give you a recent example. Um, I remember I talked about when I was writing the book and I disrespectfully disagreed with Daryl who was working on his book at the time and we're on a writing retreat and it was a situation around food, and you know he had done something. If I recall correctly, he had thrown away some food. And I was like what, like, what are you doing? Like, because I grew up, we poor, we didn't have a lot of money, we don't throw away food, right, we eat leftovers until the leftovers are gone or until there's mold on it, right? Um, and so I was like bro, like, why are you throwing away?

58:51 He's like, well, I didn't really. I was like it was good yesterday food, like for real, like. And so I then I started noticing I'm operating superior self. I didn't know it yet, but I started operating superior self. So I'm like oh man, when I was growing up, we didn't throw away food, right, because you know we didn't have a lot of money. And then I started challenging his but all this stuff as I play it back.

59:16 I'm like so do you let your kids throw away food, right? And so now in my brain I'm having all these thoughts he's a bad dad, he's not teaching well, he's a waster. And I, you know, in the moment I see him getting defensive, right, and he's getting super defensive. He's like, well, I don't know, you know, like how I grew up is different, you know, and we stopped the conversation. I don't know how it stopped, but I was like not too long after, probably like five or ten minutes after, I was like Justin, you were just operating superior self and I just started, I was doing research on that right Superior, inferior and equal self. And I was like, what would it look like for you to operate from equal self? And I was like ask more questions.

01:00:05 And so I went back to Daryl after our break, um, and I was like, hey, I'm sorry, cause I realized that, um, I didn't really hear your perspective. Um, so, like, what was, what was food like for you growing up, right? So we started talking and I started asking more questions, engaging the power of three. We had a better conversation and he even came to the place where he was like well, maybe I can rethink that, maybe how I treat food with, especially my kids, can be different, and it's because I chose to be humble and to apologize, to apologize and to also hear his perspective. And why was that so challenging for me?

01:00:48 - Chase (Host) Yeah, Because, it was a trigger. It was about you, not him.

01:00:53 - Justin (Guest) I remembered how I grew up. Yeah, I remember the pain I felt. I remember being hungry. I remember, you know, wondering where food was going to come from, you know. And so that wasn't the whole my whole growing up, but it was those moments where I was like, all right, how am I going to mix ramen noodles and hot dogs again?

01:01:12 - Chase (Host) Enough to still be with you in that moment.

01:01:14 - Justin (Guest) Yeah. So that's where I think a lot of people struggle in their disagreements is because sometimes if you don't care, if you don't care about sports you know Michael Jordan, lebron you don't care, right, who cares? You can tell me whoever. But what if you went to the games with your dad, right, and then your dad passed and you know that was your dad's favorite person? Yeah, right, and then your dad passed and that was your dad's favorite person? And so now you're really into that conversation and it's not really about that conversation. It's about something else. So I think people have to be mindful of what are the triggers that they have that might be leaning into that, and that's where it's that research calls it loosely coupled and tightly coupled. There's things that are loosely coupled that we don't hold as close to us, but tightly coupled things, where we more align them with our identity, are the things that we're often leading to a place of potential disrespectful disagreement.

01:02:11 - Chase (Host) The level to which the current subject matter is actually what you are talking about with another human being is so far removed. It is so less than what is actually happening If you really think about it.

01:02:26 I want the audience member to kind of just go back and just kind of maybe rewind what you just talked about, cause I mean, that's such a huge reminder for me and one of the best tools I could ever reflect on as to help me navigate any relationship, personal or professional, is to try to just go you know what, especially when I feel that disagreement or I can't wait to jump in, kind of thing. It's like you know what Everything that has happened to this person, to them or for them up to this moment is presenting as this subject matter. It is not just about. You know, I hate this mug, I hate this cup, and that's been a powerful shift for me the last few years.

01:03:08 - Justin (Guest) That's good brother. I mean I think one. You're brilliant, because I think that's a dope thought.

01:03:14 - Chase (Host) Thank you, I can't take credit for it. I learned from some amazing people like I've sat across from here today.

01:03:25 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, credit for it. I definitely I learned from some amazing people like I've sat across from here today. Yeah, no, I think I think one is brilliant. It reminds me of one book that I dove deeper into for the book, for the research of the book, and I was called what happened to you, yeah, um, by oprah, and I forgot doctor or something, um, you know, uh, psychiatry psychiatric semi-recent release.

01:03:36 I think came out like last year, last one or two years and they're changing the dynamic of what's wrong with you, that we often ask people and move into what happened to you, realizing that we're all shaped by our experiences, past traumas, which is actually one of the things that inspired the chapter on a picture of your past, of people identifying their life disagreement markers, because as I was reading, I was listening to the book as audible.

01:03:58 As I was listening to the book, I was crying Because it was making me realize like, wow, like I was thinking back to stuff that's happened to me. Oh yeah, right, that has shaped who I am and why I am and how I show up. And when we come to that place of realizing that everybody has those moments to your point, it helps us to have a deeper sense of empathy, which is, you know we may not get there, but like one of the reasons that helped me to forgive my dad Right. You know we may not get there, but like one of the reasons that helped me to forgive my dad Right, because I him not being in my life. I was like what's wrong with you? Until a great therapist and a leadership Charlotte cohort that challenged me to turning my confrontation into a conversation and, as I went to hear his story instead of going to confront him.

01:04:46 - Chase (Host) I better understood what happened to him. The next time anybody wants to go confront somebody, think about what Justin just said and do that. Instead, choose to go. I want to hear your story.

01:05:00 - Justin (Guest) Yeah.

01:05:00 - Chase (Host) Help me understand versus listen to me. Yeah, understand versus listen to me. Yeah, it's these subtle little cues that will pivot your life in such a incredible trajectory you can't even imagine. Well, just I got to ask one final question, man. This has been incredible. Um, thank you so much for making time here for me and ever forward radio today. Um, before we get to the last question, remind the audience where they can go to connect with you, get the book, learn more about what you got going on.

01:05:30 - Justin (Guest) Yeah, you can check it out at howtorespectfullydisagreecom. That's the website for the book and all that stuff and the company is workmeaningfulcom.

01:05:38 - Chase (Host) But I love LinkedIn Justin Jones Fosu, I'm on there all the time and I'm on there all the time and all this will be down in the video notes, show notes for everybody. But to bring it home. Man, living a life ever forward means something to me and I always am curious about what that interpretation means to my guests. Those two words, what do they mean to you today?

01:05:56 - Justin (Guest) Ever forward. I remember reflecting on that as I saw the title. Some people have very interesting titles. It makes you think, and this is one. Some people have very interesting titles makes you think, and this was one. Um, it's a principle of my life and a principle of my business that we call the tortoise principle. What's that? A tortoise principle comes from the tortoise in the hair, so growing up, it's one of my favorite fables. Growing up, um, what do we call the tortoise growing up? What?

01:06:22 - Chase (Host) do you mean?

01:06:23 - Justin (Guest) Like in the in the, the tortoise in the hare. Do you remember what we called the tortoise the slow one?

01:06:29 - Chase (Host) The loser. Yeah, the slow right. Yeah, okay, we called the tortoise slow right. I'm trying to read too much into it. Is there a different name for the tortoise? Is this metaphysical?

01:06:37 - Justin (Guest) But no, we called the tortoise slow.

01:06:39 And I was like all these years. We've gotten it wrong. The tortoise wasn't slow, the tortoise was strategic. The tortoise was ever forward. We only call the tortoise slow because we compared it to the hare and we saw what happened with the hare. And so in our lives there's a lot of people who are exhibiting what I call hare behaviors. Where it looks really good initially, it's very flashy. They may even change their social media picture right, all right, but there's no long lasting substantive change or growth. So for me, ever forward means being the tortoise. It means strategically moving forward, plotting forward. It doesn't mean you're slow, it just means you're moving in a pace that's sustainable and that you're consistently, steadily making progress. That's Everford to me.

01:07:27 - Chase (Host) I love that so much. There's never a right or wrong answer. I say I appreciate that interpretation and it cannot be more spot on for kind of where I'm at recently, the last year or two, with this, my own new personal reinterpretation of Everford. I share with you the story kind of behind it, my dad's mantra and for years it was this because I needed it to be, because I had not yet learned how to slow down and process and sit with all this and outside of therapy, Ever forward. I mean there's a lot of power and momentum and taking action. But there's a difference, an incredible difference, in moving forward because you can versus moving forward because you know why. Wow.

01:08:11 - Justin (Guest) Oh, good, yeah, Say it again. Say it again, chase, please.

01:08:15 - Chase (Host) The difference between being able to move forward because you can and moving forward because you know. Why is everything, and I'm fully well, I don't want, don't say fully, there's always room for more, right, but you know, I am so much more in knowing why. Yeah, and I love being the tortoise right now. Yeah, it is, it is smoother sailing yeah and there's so much more clarity.

01:08:39 and I've used this analogy before. For years. I was ever forward, but yeah, I'm moving, I'm going down the line, but I'm moving, I'm going down the line, but all I'm doing is I'm just adding another link on a chain. I'm still bound to this thing that is holding me down and will always hold me down, and for me, it was this loss of my father. Now it's like, okay, I've learned how to cut that cord. I still know what's in my past, but I'm no longer bound by it.

01:09:06 - Justin (Guest) Wow, that's powerful.

01:09:08 - Chase (Host) Well, it's not about me, it's about you.

01:09:10 - Justin (Guest) No, it's about us.

01:09:10 - Chase (Host) That's my reflection on your You're always on brand. I love that.

01:09:15 - Justin (Guest) No, it's about us man, again, it's that C, it's that gray space, right? It's just me kind of thinking through, of knowing why, rather that's, I'm leaving with that today.

01:09:27 - Chase (Host) So this has been my privilege, my honor, my pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show Again. Everybody got to check out Justin's work, his book, his content. I'll be down in the video description box the podcast show notes. This is great man, thank you so much. Thank you, chase. Also, note to self, I got to level up my attire for the next video. My man's looking good. My man's looking good.

01:09:48 - Justin (Guest) This is my shabby attire.

01:09:50 - Chase (Host) I think I subconsciously remembered that I got an East Coast guy coming on. I don't wear collared shirts anymore.

01:09:55 - Justin (Guest) Interesting.

01:09:56 - Chase (Host) I'm usually like an oversized t-shirt, my necklace or a hoodie. La Chase has been in full effect for a few years.

01:10:04 - Justin (Guest) LA Chase has the guns out. I saw your video. I thought I had to Maybe bring my jacket out.

01:10:12 - Chase (Host) I'm watching that TED talk. I'm like man, I gotta start doing some bicep curls.

01:10:17 - Justin (Guest) I haven't gone to the gym yet today. I'm gonna go later, I promise.

01:10:22 - Chase (Host) Before he shows up anymore, I gotta kill it, alright. So last thing I could get, please, please, if I could get a little intro. Just, you know, I'm going to have you look right in this camera, introduce yourself. Keep it kind of, you know, brief. Introduce yourself, name, title, if you want to put up the book, that's totally cool, yeah, yeah 1530.

01:10:37 And then just close with welcome to Everford Radio. This is something like that. And while you're doing, actually I'm going to grab. I'm going to grab my camera or my phone real quick, I'm going to get a little just behind the scenes, awesome.

01:10:48 - Justin (Guest) And I also want to make sure we get something with us, just like talking. If, chantel, yeah, tell me when you're ready. Hey, what's going on? Hi?

01:11:07 - Chase (Host) So let me, I Hi. So I'm just going to go a little behind the scenes side angle. If you're doing that, let's just get to maybe two, just to have it Cool.

01:11:13 - Justin (Guest) Awesome, it's right in here. Am I talking in here? Yeah, you're looking behind the camera talking to the mic.

01:11:19 - Chase (Host) Awesome, and that's all you man.

01:11:21 - Justin (Guest) All right, welcome. This is Justin Jones-Fosu. I am proud to be here. I'm author of. I Respectfully Disagree how to have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World, and we're talking about how do we make progress in more respectful disagreements.

01:11:39 - Chase (Host) So make sure you stay tuned. It's going to be awesome.

01:11:42 - Justin (Guest) This is Ever Forward.

01:11:43 - Chase (Host) Radio.

01:11:45 - Justin (Guest) My man might be a one-shot one-kill but just to have it, give me, just me, just one more. Just the same thing in the camera there. Hey, what's up, fam? This is justin jones fosu, author of I respectfully disagree this book right here. Hopefully you respectfully agree that it's good. Uh, but I am so pumped and excited to share these principles and please, please, make sure you stay tuned because we're making forward with ever forward radio oh, love it, man love it, and you want to get a little some like behind the scenes clips.

01:12:08 Yeah, she doesn't mind just taking like a picture, can I?

01:12:09 - Chase (Host) grab you real quick, please. I might just grab the sm. Uh like some video photo or um, it could be a combination of both okay, having a brief conversation, would you mind, us and I we're gonna do some, uh, some some fake behind the scenes stuff maybe get a little your iphone right, I do, yeah, I'll make sure, yeah yeah, Would you mind to grab? We'll just converse and get some photo video please.

01:12:27 - Justin (Guest) A photo and video Like kind of like, while we're rolling yeah and even you can actually do it behind the yeah.

01:12:36 - Chase (Host) Yeah, you get a little bit of glare. You can check it out and see.

01:12:39 - Justin (Guest) You get a little bit of reflection and kind of behind the camera, yeah, so you kind of see, yeah.

01:12:44 - Chase (Host) Yeah.

01:12:45 - Justin (Guest) So we got fake time.

01:12:46 - Chase (Host) How many have you done? A lot of other podcasts while you're on the strip, or what else are you?

01:12:49 - Justin (Guest) doing? I'm not on this trip, but most of you, most of my podcasts are just virtual yeah, okay, do you do a lot in person, or is this? No, no, it's just been most of the people just doing them by zoom. So I have my it works I have my little thing with my thing here. I have my uh yeah, your mobile studio yeah, something like that.

01:13:05 So I have my oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good audio yeah, so now I travel with that, but it's been like more the. The new stuff has been the stuff that's been in person, so that's been?

01:13:16 - Chase (Host) what are you finding is your favorite thing versus what do you think is supporting maybe the book more?

01:13:21 - Justin (Guest) um, I don't know the ROI from the podcast. You know it's known that it helps, yeah, but we saw a significant spike from Good Day LA yesterday. Oh good, good, yeah. So we ratcheted back up to one of the top sellers in business conflict. Oh amazing, yeah, thank you. Oh, thank you bro.

01:13:41 - Chase (Host) Oh, can't take me anywhere.

01:13:42 - Justin (Guest) Shit man, I get too excited, but that was you know, our marketing person hit us up like, yeah, we can tell the impact. Good, yeah, good, so that was like a direct so, but yeah, I don't know, I haven't done all the research. It's still been like when did we launch the book? The 16th? Yeah, so it's still been like a couple weeks, two, three weeks well, uh, we'll get this one off.

01:14:04 - Chase (Host) Probably it'll be in june, okay, and uh, once I get it all done, I'll send it all the things and uh, we'll tag appropriately perfect we'll photo video all the, all the things yeah, appreciate you rock, bro, man.

01:14:14 - Justin (Guest) I love your heart, man, thank you for sharing your story.

01:14:16 - Chase (Host) Your dad too thank you for real, for like I wouldn't be here doing it if it wasn't for shout out, shout out, big chuck, big Chucky up there. For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to EverForwardRadio.com