EFR 811: Identity, Revolution, and Division in the World Today, How to Recognize True Human Connection, Rebuild Your Self-Worth and Stop Being a People Pleaser with Najwa Zebian

00:00 - Chase (Host) The following is an Operation Podcast production. What's your viewpoint of the world situation? Are we more divided or more unified?

00:06 - Najwa (Guest) You're an awful human being. End of story. We don't believe in you anymore. This is making me emotional, but again, I need to stop looking at other people's experiences to take away from my right to feel the pain of what they caused me Like. I can see your story, but I'm not going to step outside of mine to be with you and yours. We often abandon ourselves to be there in someone else's story and then it becomes all about them. But what about us? Maybe in the past I would have told you I see myself as a rebel, because I saw myself as oh, I'm going up against this and that and I feel like rebel, even though it could have a positive meaning. Usually when we say it comes with a negative connotation. So I would prefer saying maybe I'm effecting some kind of a revolution. Hi everyone, my name is Nezha Zabian, author of the Only Constant Welcome to Ever Forward Radio.

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02:47 I am Chase Schooning. I am your host here on the show. I'm an Army veteran, I'm a certified health coach and I'm someone that is just committed to maintaining and optimizing a lot of things in my life my wellness, by focusing on my physical and mental resilience to help me keep moving forward in life, to keep living a life ever forward, I say. And today I'm so honored to have sat down with guest Nezha Zabian. She's a four times best-selling author, speaker, creator, a Lebanese-Canadian author, activist, speaker and educator. She's all the things. But in today, what actually might be my longest, most intriguing conversation to date on the show, we peel back the layers on what it takes to uncover the secret to a fulfilling life. Nezha shares her compelling journey of navigating identity, cultural expectations and, not to mention, the struggles of feeling out of place in both Lebanon and Canada. Through her articulate storytelling, she highlights the power of words, the impact of cultural and religious norms and her transformation from feeling like a rebel to embracing her role as a revolutionary. We're going to be exploring the themes of empathy, understanding and the importance of compassionate communication. We also discuss the pitfalls of black and white thinking and societal judgments, emphasizing the need for open dialogue and understanding differing perspectives.

04:14 I had the pleasure of sitting down in person with Inejwa in New York City. If you guys want to check out the video, I have this linked for you in the show notes. You can always find it at everfordradiocom or if you're on YouTube but me in the world, if you would subscribe to the channel, just go to YouTube, search Everford Radio. Again, it's linked for you in the show notes and you know.

04:31 Actually, sitting down with the Neshoa, I had to do some unique preparation. I had just landed the evening before in New York City and there are a lot of things that I do to prep for reducing and even eliminating jet lag, watching caffeine, trying to ease right into my same sleep schedule. But one of the best travel hacks for me in preparation for this interview is socks. You heard me right. I swear by these compression socks, gradual compression socks from Comrade Socks, today's sponsor, if you ever notice how you kind of get tired or fatigued or you feel squirmy, restless leg syndrome, even if you're just flying a couple hours? You're seated low cabin pressure, your blood isn't circulating, your oxygen isn't circulating. These are all things that don't help you when you land and you need to get to work, you need to hit the ground running, you need to go visit family, chill on vacation.

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05:53 - Najwa (Guest) So I'm Lebanese.

05:54 - Chase (Host) Is that what it means? What does Najwa mean in?

05:56 - Najwa (Guest) Lebanese, my name has two meanings divine talk and having a conversation, a secretive conversation about your innermost thoughts and feelings. If that isn't the most on brand name for what you do and what we're here to talk about. Wow, yeah.

06:16 - Chase (Host) Your name means what it means. Do you feel like that influenced your life and your work at all, or was it just?

06:23 - Najwa (Guest) this is my innate nature your life and your work at all? Or was it just? This is my innate nature? I feel like when my parents named me that name, I think my dad picked it out. My dad's very much into poetry and feelings. He doesn't talk about them, he's very stoic, but I feel like he kind of wanted me to be like him. So from a young age I would listen to the same music he would listen to, which was old folk music, where most of it was extremely poetic, and he always had novels and philosophy books, and so I feel like there was a little bit of an effort to make me the way that I am. But also, for as far back as I can remember, I've always been a hyper sensitive, emotional person, very in touch with my feelings, and words mean a lot to me.

07:18 - Chase (Host) So yeah, obviously yeah. You pump a lot of them out in some very impactful ways.

07:24 - Najwa (Guest) I listen to what people say, even though we say, actions speak louder than words, but to me, words mean a lot. You know, if you don't mean something and you say it to someone, you say well, I didn't mean it, and why did you say it then?

07:40 - Chase (Host) Right.

07:40 - Najwa (Guest) You know there's a reason. Or when people say it's just a joke, you're like but why did the joke have to be so negative and so critical? Yeah, I pay attention.

07:55 - Chase (Host) No pressure, she's locked in for the next hour. So in getting to know more about your work, I saw that you kind of you introduce yourself, at least on your website and kind of some professional titles, as a Lebanese Canadian author, activist, speaker and educator. You lead with Lebanese. Take us into that world, please. What does being a Lebanese woman in 2024 look like for you?

08:26 - Najwa (Guest) and why?

08:27 - Chase (Host) why is that the lead introduction for Najwa?

08:30 - Najwa (Guest) I started off back in the day when I first started writing um telling people I'm Lebanese, canadian. I'm Lebanese Canadian and I think it's because I didn't see myself fully as a Canadian. So, long story short, my parents met and got married in Canada. They had five kids and then they decided to move back to Lebanon, which is where they were both originally from, and eight years later I was born. So I'm the only one in my family born there, born in Lebanon.

09:00 In Lebanon. The rest were born here and so, because my parents, after having five kids, they didn't want to have any more, I was kind of an accident. So I was much younger than everybody else. So when they would hit 18 or even less than that, they started coming back to Canada and I was left there just living with different relatives and I was left there just living with different relatives.

09:25 So even while I was in Lebanon, I didn't really see myself as oh, I'm Lebanese and I'm strong in this identity and I feel like this is my home. I always felt like something was missing. And then when I moved fully to Canada at 16, on my 16th birthday, believe it or not, but when I moved here at 16, I remember not feeling like I was Canadian, but at the same time I came from a place where I felt like I was so different from everybody else because I was this sensitive, emotional person. I was always bullied in school so I always felt like an outsider. And then here I was in a brand new country that I'd visited before, my whole family's here but I couldn't find an identity there.

10:16 So I feel like, for the longest time now that you asked me the question, I put it there because it kind of gave, gave me an opportunity to be an in between like I don't I I don't really know who to tell you I am yeah, yeah to me to be a le to be someone who challenges the rules, someone who inspires other women and young girls and, hopefully, men, to be in touch with their emotions, to express themselves to. This is a little bit more specific to not be so bound by culture and religion, because that was a major theme. That was a major theme in my life to be controlled by culture and religion, and it carried into my adult years, where I felt I always felt like I was doing something wrong by wanting to explore life or figure out who I am and what I want to do.

11:32 Yes, yes, so where I was in Lebanon, I was living in a small village with probably, you know, a thousand people who were there permanently, and then all the visitors from Canada and other parts of the world would fill the village up, but it was really a tiny village. Everybody there was Muslim. My only exposure to people from different religions was when my dad would take me to visit his friends, so I would see these people here and there, and my dad was very open about, like you know, they're good people and only god can judge what's in a person's heart. But I grew up around very religious people.

12:15 I attended an islamic school and put that in a mixture of being hypersensitive, being a people pleaser, being an empath. Put all of that together and it makes for somebody who never really knew who she was and never expressed herself and never felt like she could make a mistake, or I was the perfect student and the perfect daughter and I wanted to make sure everybody was okay. So to get to a point in my life where I learned how to set boundaries and I'm learning how to continue to explore my own path in life, that was a huge deal. So I see myself as maybe in the past I would have told you I see myself as a rebel because I saw myself as oh, I'm going up against this and that, and I feel like rebel. Even though it could have a positive meaning, usually when we say it it comes with a negative connotation.

13:24 So I would prefer saying maybe I'm effecting some kind of a revolution maybe I'm okay you know, internally and externally, um, but for me, writing has always been my revolution, because writing has inspired me not only to break the rules that others told me I needed to live by, but writing also inspired me not only to break the rules that others told me I needed to live by, but writing also inspired me to figure out what do I want to do with my life. It's not just about breaking rules. What about the rules I set for myself? What about the rules I decide? If I don't live my life by these rules, then it's not an authentic life. So, yeah, that's what it means to me to be a Lebanese woman. I mean, I never thought about that question, but yeah.

14:14 - Chase (Host) In your opinion, is the current state of the world in a more divided or unified place? I feel like either camp. That's a heavy question. Yeah, yeah, nothing but the lightest questions.

14:26 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah.

14:27 - Chase (Host) Because I feel like right now, here we are, to give context, may 13th 2024. You could maybe like, in any situation really you could, you know, either camp could have an argument made for it, depending on where you are status religion, for depending on where you are status religion belief system geographical, like literally where you are um. But as we are here sitting down in new york city, may 13th 2024, what's your viewpoint of the world situation? Are we more divided and more unified?

14:57 - Najwa (Guest) currently, I feel like there's a lot of division, there's a lot of um, there's a lot of us versus them. There's a lot of us versus them. There's a lot of and I'm talking about the political climate right now there's a lot of lack of willingness to sit down and have the hard conversations that need to be had and then, within the communities where you know a community might see themselves as us versus them, within that community, that's like us there was also quite a bit of judgment and criticism and just being pit against each other.

15:41 - Chase (Host) Even under the same roof, many of us find ourselves in or building different rooms, right yeah.

15:46 - Najwa (Guest) And I think a lot of it comes from a division within a person's self.

15:51 If you don't know who you are, if you don't know what you stand for, if you don't know what's important to you in your life, you're very likely to look at others and criticize them or judge them.

16:02 Or you're very likely to look at a whole population of people and say you're the reason for my problems. But if you go inwards, you're going to be in touch with your human side and when you're in touch with your human side, you see the human in another person instead of seeing all the parts that you really want to criticize and bring down. Because when you go inward, not only do you see the beautiful parts of yourself, but you also see the ugly ones, and you see the ones that you're not proud of and the ones that cause you shame. And when you're willing to sit with them, then you see them in another person and you're more willing to have empathy and compassion towards them, as opposed to that judgment or that criticism. And I think a lot of the defensiveness that comes with I'm not going to have this conversation with you, we're not going to talk about this. I'm right, you're wrong is like a decision a person has already made in their mind 100%.

17:06 That I'm not willing to hear you out and nothing that you say is going to change my mind about you or about the issue at hand.

17:17 - Chase (Host) I've already said no, before I even hear anything else.

17:21 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, and it's like a faux feeling of power. Oh, yeah, right, you're like, I don't really care about what you have to say, I've already made up my mind. And then I have a very compassionate approach when it comes to life and people and I don't like being so black and white in my thinking. I don't like looking at a person and saying you're an awful human being, end of story. Even if there's awful behavior, I see it as awful behavior, but not as you and who you are, and I wish more people would have that outlook on people. Because if you think about it, what's your purpose at the end of the day? If your purpose is just to feel good in little increments throughout the day, then you're gonna look at others and say you're bad, I'm good, you're wrong, I'm right, and you're gonna get that.

18:19 You know very fleeting feeling of feeling good about yourself, power leeching, yeah, like I'm better. But at the end of the day, what's your purpose? If it's not to advance A yourself and B the world around you, then you're going to continue with this behavior. That's very centered on how do I feel better about myself? What do I need to do? Who do I need to compare myself to? Who do I need to put down? Who do I need to criticize? Who do I need to say look at where you are in your life and where I am in my life. You're going to be so self-centered on healing your pain by either causing somebody else pain or by just not seeing the struggle that they have and choosing to just see the bits and pieces that you want to see like, based on whatever filter you have over your eyes.

19:17 If your purpose in life is to advance yourself and the world around you, then you're very likely to look at a person who, yes, they could have a completely opposite opinion than the one that you have about anything, about any topic politics, religion and say okay, there is something that you truly believe that you're having a hard time looking outside of and there's something that I truly believe that I'm having a hard time looking outside of. Maybe, if we have a conversation and understand where each person is coming from, maybe we could understand the miscommunication that's in the way. Or maybe we just figure out that we have different value systems and we have different ways of seeing life and we don't want to continue this conversation, but at least give it a shot and have the conversation, because that's the only way to bring people together, the only way but to and you know the media doesn't help with this, because not the general media, that's for damn sure.

20:22 - Chase (Host) No, no, no, you got to go hunting for good yeah.

20:25 - Najwa (Guest) It's very easy to watch something on TV and just be 100 percent convinced that is the truth. And then when you do your own research, things are very different. But many people won't take the time to do their own research research. So even when it comes to social media, for example, with seeing other people's lives on social media and how they're portrayed, it's very easy, as somebody who's scrolling and looking, not only to feel bad about yourself because you don't have the life, the life that you're seeing or the lives that you're seeing but it's also it's easy to sit there and try to bring those people down for having things that you wish you had. And that's why you see all the negative comments and the very heartless ones that people would not say to your face if they were sitting with you.

21:24 - Chase (Host) So not everybody that people would not say to your face if they were sitting with you, not everybody, yeah.

21:26 - Najwa (Guest) So to bring it back to your question, I would say there is now, more than ever, I believe, quite a bit of division amongst people. But I see hope. I see that there are people who are willing to engage in dialogue and there are people who are willing to admit to themselves that they were wrong and admit to the world that they were wrong about their beliefs. And from my own personal experience, um, I'll give you an example maybe, maybe what we're in 2024. So, about seven years ago, I decided I no longer wanted to wear the hijab, the Muslim headdress, and I had been writing for like two or three years. At the time, my work was out there, people loved my writing and many of them happened to be Muslim because they see, oh, muslim writer, you know I identify with her.

22:33 - Chase (Host) I see her.

22:34 - Najwa (Guest) And the amount of hate I get I got at that time. It was bad. I think I lost 30,000 followers in one day, which didn't mean anything to me because I didn't equate my worth by followers at that time it was a statement, it was a significant metric to that you can't deny. The message I understood from that was we don't believe in you anymore. We don't want to read your writings anymore.

23:07 - Chase (Host) We don't see you anymore like that's what it meant exactly and influence our decision to come on board with your journey. That one thing was enough to make us go.

23:16 - Najwa (Guest) Everything else, yeah and it was such a personal decision, like I wasn't making a decision to tell people right, do what I'm doing or I'm denouncing my religion. It wasn't like that at all. It was just a personal decision I had reached because, you know, I was raised in a very religious environment and I think I started dressing that way at a very young age where I wouldn't have had the mental right ability to be like this is the right choice.

23:47 - Chase (Host) No, I was a child when I started wearing it.

23:50 - Najwa (Guest) so here I was at 27, 28 I think I was 28 just making that change and I got so much hate. And to this day, sometimes if I wear a skirt that's too short by some people's standards, or if I wear something that's too revealing by their standards, I'll still get comments like so you're happy now showing off your body? And it's like I didn't even think about what the way I look represents. What the way I look represents. I just thought this is a happy picture, or this is a picture of me speaking, or, and so it's still there. But the number of people who've joined my community since then has been way more than the number of people who I lost. And there are people who are so compassionate in the way that they talk to me. They don't look at me just as a body, and what am I choosing to do with this body. They look at my wisdom, they look at my soul, they look at my experience, my willingness to help other people, so-.

25:03 - Chase (Host) As well they should with anybody. Yeah, yeah, really.

25:06 - Najwa (Guest) I think it's important to surround yourself with people who make an effort to see you for who you are, past the labels that maybe you project into the world or the things that you think are the most valuable about you. We tend to just show off because we want to be seen as worthy Expectations and assumptions.

25:28 Yeah. So I think it's important to surround yourself with people who see past all of that and they see you for who you are. They don't need you to have all the accomplishments that you think you need to have in order to get their love or respect. They just see you and love you for who you are, because I think that's the only way for you to feel uh, enough really. Because if you're constantly surrounded by people who need you to have certain things a certain amount of money, look a certain way, be at a certain weight, whatever If they need that, then their love for you isn't for you, it's for what you have.

26:13 And so there's a really powerful saying in Arabic that says what is my need for you during the good times if I didn't see you during the dark times? And the literal translation from Arabic is what is my need for you during the light if I couldn't find you during the dark, right? So I always reflect on that and I urge people to reflect on that If somebody can't show up for you and your shadow side and all the things that you're ashamed of and the things that make you feel like you're not enough, if they can't see that and love you, not despite that, but they love you because of them, because because they recognize it in themselves too, then their presence during your good times is not presence for you, it's for what you represent in their lives.

27:16 Sometimes people stay in our lives because of the way they look as a result of us being by their side. Sometimes people are in our lives because they look at what we've accomplished and they see it as, oh, this is going to encourage me to do more. But they're not actually seeing the struggle that you go through. They're only thinking of how to elevate themselves, and that's not a connection. A connection needs two people who are open and vulnerable and willing to reciprocate that seeing and that hearing.

27:51 - Chase (Host) Yeah, Reminds me of another quote. I might be maybe kind of paraphrasing here, but what is meant to give light must endure burning.

28:01 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah.

28:01 - Chase (Host) So I think that kind of speaks to what you were talking about. Of that last, you know the connection piece. We only see oftentimes the light, but you know, light can't exist without darkness, darkness can't exist without light, but in order to really to have that and to keep it sustaining, there's a cost to be paid. There's a sacrifice that is being made, whether we see that or not.

28:22 And I'm kind of hearing very publicly you kind of sharing more of those sacrifices and the burning necessary in your life in order to, to maintain, if not even burn brighter.

28:34 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, Wow, Well, my mom always tells me and you've heard this before she says I feel like you're a candle for everyone and you're burning yourself while lighting up everybody else's way and I'm wondering when are you going to do that for yourself? She tells me that all the time.

28:55 - Chase (Host) Sounds like a mom. Yeah right, Sounds like a true mom.

28:59 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, good, mom, learn the lesson when you learn the lesson. No one can force you to learn the lesson. Um, I actually wrote about this in my most recent book. In the only constant I said I used to believe that a smart person was somebody who learned from other people's mistakes. That's how I was raised. To look at other people, what have they done that led them to a bad place? Don't do it. I used to believe that that was a definition of a smart person, but now I think a smart person is somebody who's willing to take the risk, regardless, even if somebody before them had taken that path and it led them to a dead end. Maybe if they believe in it strongly enough, they go for it and they learn on their own.

29:46 You don't reach heights in personal growth and in wisdom and expertise without actual experience. You don't, you can't. So when I write, I'm very aware that some people say like your writing brings me down sometimes, and I'm like yeah, it's because you're flooded with social media content that's showing you everyone is happy and everyone is joyous and everybody's reaching the milestones they want, and I don't care about anybody. And here I am writing something that reminds you there's a human inside of you, waiting to be heard and seen by you. So, yes, it's going to bring you down sometimes, because maybe that's what you need to discover who you really are and excel your life forward bring a reinterpretation to bringing me down.

30:41 - Chase (Host) Reword bringing down, it's bringing me down. What does that really mean? You're becoming more grounded.

30:47 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah.

30:47 - Chase (Host) You're becoming grounded, maybe just for the first time ever, or in a long time. You need to come down.

30:53 - Najwa (Guest) You need to feel the ground.

30:54 - Chase (Host) You need to know that you can and should plant your feet sometimes and not just stay stuck up in the clouds.

31:01 - Najwa (Guest) And maybe it's that you're hearing a truth you really need to hear, or something that you know is true, but you've kind of been in denial of it and I'm reminding you of it.

31:11 - Chase (Host) Alrighty fam, I got to take a quick break to keep the lights on over here. Thank you so much for always tuning into the show and listening to what I have to say about each and every one of my proud partners, because not only do they help me keep the lights on over here at Everford Radio, but these are all things that I regularly use love condone, and they get my personal seal of approval, but also certified health coach Chase here coming on. One of the biggest reasons why I love today's sponsor, legion Athletics, is because every product they come out with, every ingredient in every product, is at the clinically effective, proven dose. That means everything in there is at the right amounts of clinically studied levels to do what it says it's going to do. Specifically, I want to talk to you about creatine, the key ingredient in their post-workout recovery supplement recharge.

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33:00 - Najwa (Guest) I've never with my writings, I've never wanted to just give a person what I think they want to hear, as in you know, I'm going to tell you you're better than everybody else and don't let them get to you, and I don't talk like that and I don't believe in that I believe a person needs to embrace their pain and feel it, and I believe that they need to see things clearly in their life.

33:26 That clarity is so important. Like if you, if you don't know what's actually going on around you. Like if you't interpret, let's say, somebody's being really mean to you and you're in denial of that because you've adapted to accepting that meanness in some way. Then every time they speak in a mean way to you, instead of you seeing that behavior clearly and what is it telling me about the way they feel about me? And do I want this in my life? You're going to grab your paintbrush and you you're gonna paint them with. You're a good person, this was nothing, and you're gonna keep allowing yourself to be injured. And just because you put a band-aid on a gushing wound, it doesn't mean that the wound is healed. You're just it. You think, out of sight, out of mind, but it's getting infected and it's making things worse for you. So with my writing, I always try to encourage people to be real with themselves. You know, don't sugarcoat things, don't just focus on how do I? You know that saying that says I am not who I think I am.

34:39 - Chase (Host) I am who I think.

34:39 - Najwa (Guest) You think I am there's a lot of self-help that's out there right now, where people are very focused on external, external evidence to the rest of the world that they are well and thriving. Like how do I level up, how do I glow up and that term really bothers me when people say, oh, I had my glow up after my divorce or after I left this person or I left this job.

35:12 It bothers me because the focus is usually on the physical appearance, the glow up of going to the gym and having the body that you've always wanted to have Revenge body right yeah.

35:26 And I see this a lot with women, and there's no judgment, it's just. I'm talking about why. The term bothers me is me, there's a lot of work done on their faces, on their bodies, and they think or they say to themselves, that was my glow up. To me, a glow up is what did you do on the inside to heal Like I don't care what you look like on the outside? I think all women are beautiful. I think all men are beautiful in their own way as well, but why do we attach the term glow up to only the physical appearance? That bothers me? I think a glow up needs to be a soul glow up. I think it needs to be what changed about the way I see myself, and what changed not just about the way that people see me, but what changed about the way that people treat me, based on the boundaries I learned how to set, based on the standards I now have for myself, based on the way I love myself.

36:37 - Chase (Host) I hear you in that, but what about? I'm just kind of just thinking could the argument be made that that's what that person needs in? Order to maybe finally feel like what they see when they look in the mirror and how they feel when they do kind of drop in with themselves. Finally now, matches like the outside finally matches the inside. What if that's what it takes?

37:01 - Najwa (Guest) I think that's an element of it. For sure is to work on. You know, I'm currently going through a phase in my life where not many people know this, but I have crones and I have a really hard time putting on weight, but lately I've been pushing myself every day and I'm not somebody who's like all about weight, but I have been like I'm weighing myself to make sure I'm gaining weight and I'm counting my calories to make sure I'm eating more than than I used to before.

37:30 Yeah, I think that's a part of it, but I hate that it's the only part for many people. I don't like that because unless you heal something from the inside, it doesn't matter what you look like on the outside. You're still going to have, at the end of the day, when you're by yourself, you're not going to see what you look like on the outside. You need to be able to live with what's on the inside. On the outside, you need to be able to live with what's on the inside. So it's great that people have the term glow up in the first place and however you need to do it, do it. But I wish we could add, as part of the glow up, the inner reflection, the growth, the.

38:14 - Chase (Host) It was a facial with psychotherapy there you go. It was lipo with psychotherapy there you go. It was lipo and a wellness retreat yes, A massage, and you know like.

38:23 - Najwa (Guest) I had another interview where we were talking about like a soul purge. You know, just like you drink a cleansing juice, Like what do you need to do to have like a soul cleanse?

38:37 - Chase (Host) Here's your wheatgrass shot coupled with I need your deepest, darkest secret, because the happiest people you will meet.

38:43 - Najwa (Guest) You don't even pay attention to their features or to their body, but when a person is genuinely happy, they glow in a way where it really doesn't matter to you what they look like. It's their energy, it's infectious, it inspires you to want to be that way. So I wish more people would include an internal glow up with their external glow up. I think that would make for a very whole glow up.

39:16 - Chase (Host) I want to share with you, if I can, a quote, a paraphrase maybe, from two guests that I had on the show last year Shout out B and Asria B and Asria Becker. Their book's called Becoming and they really hit home on this point. I probably share this quote the most with other guests. As you discover a version of yourself that is deeply solid but is never rigid, emanate a warmth that makes other people's nervous systems unwind in your presence without you saying a single word, if we can attach that to the glow up protocol yeah, exactly, exactly I.

39:54 - Najwa (Guest) There is so much messaging out there for both men and women Like going to the gym is good, it's very healthy for you. Don't make the gym the only way that you are trying to get through.

40:11 - Chase (Host) Don't make it your identity.

40:11 - Najwa (Guest) Exactly. You need to learn how to live a balanced and holistic life, and maybe you will go through a phase where that is the way you're surviving and that's okay. But if you're listening to us right now, maybe ask yourself what's something inside of me that needs to be healed, what is the child in me screaming at me to say or do, or what is a belief I learned about myself from a very early part of my life that I need to start shaking out of my system and if you don't know those questions, or if nothing rises to the top, I think there's a great prompt to go the fact that I don't know, or if there's something that doesn't just immediately gut check you.

40:57 - Chase (Host) There's a prompt to go the fact that I don't know, or if there's something that doesn't just immediately gut, check you. There's a prompt to really I need to think about it. There's time to sit and kind of just ponder that, because I believe there should be something that comes to mind in all those questions that you just pose yeah objectively, I think if everybody spent time working on those questions to come up with something, I believe that's a great step in personal development.

41:20 - Najwa (Guest) You know what I think is a great way to figure out your inner child struggles and beliefs.

41:28 - Chase (Host) What's that?

41:29 - Najwa (Guest) Think of the times that you act out of character where you say that's not even like me. I don't do that. That is you. It's just a younger version of you that's more immature.

41:39 - Chase (Host) Everybody. Listening is like crap, she's right.

41:42 - Najwa (Guest) It's more immature, that's more erratic and not being able to make sense of what's going on and acting based on emotion, when you go on a spiral of texting and calling someone and then the next day you say to yourself that's not me, I was caught, I was hijacked that's a better term. You're hijacked by your inner child. That still hasn't healed. There's still a part of you somewhere that is stuck in the past, thinking the only way I can survive being ignored is by overly trying to get a hold of the person. Usually it was your parent in the past trying overly hard to express myself, and so they're taking the lead when you're triggered and you're taking a back seat. But you're the adult and you're the one in control.

42:38 But there's a disconnect between adult you and little you, and so a good conversation to have is between adult you and little you just and I've done this so many times and it's so healing to go back to the exact place where a younger version of you was sitting or standing or playing or whatever, where they started believing something about themselves like I don't deserve to be loved, I don't deserve to be responded to, I don't deserve to be prioritized. To go back to them in that experience and imagine sitting next to them and asking them how do you feel right now? And saying to them all the things that the adults at the time should have said. And the most powerful thing for me is to ask that little child do you want to leave? And visualize extending your arm out to them and see if they'll hold your hand? Because that would show you adult you, that little you trusts you in taking care of them the way that the adults at the time should have. And that's where healing comes full circle that now adult you is healing young you.

43:50 - Chase (Host) Really collapsing time there, this is where time and space go out the window. Yes, you're able to really finish unfinished business. Yeah, consciously and subconsciously. There there's where time and space go out the window and you're able to really finish unfinished business, consciously and subconsciously there.

44:01 - Najwa (Guest) There is one story from my childhood that it was only very recently that little me said yeah, I'll come with you.

44:09 - Chase (Host) What was that? If you wouldn't mind?

44:10 - Najwa (Guest) sharing. It's a story I talked about in both Welcome Home and the Only Constant. I was at my aunt and uncle's house the night before a major celebration for us, kind of like your christmas here and I was. I was living with them at the time and my mom was in canada, so this was in lebanon and my dad was at home. But my dad would like leave me with relatives if he had work or because in his mind he thought they're that's what I have to.

44:42 - Chase (Host) They'll take care of her they'll feed her, you know.

44:44 - Najwa (Guest) so I'm. I'm sitting at their house the night before me and my cousins are playing in the playroom, and my aunt came into the room and she said um, it's family time, we're going to open the gift. So this was the night before, so they did.

45:00 - Chase (Host) Yeah, we do that on Christmas Eve. Well, you do that. Yeah, my family at least will open up one present.

45:03 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, so, but they were opening all the presents and she looked at me and she said you stay here, it's family time.

45:12 - Chase (Host) So all of them Implying. You're not family.

45:14 - Najwa (Guest) Yes, which that happened in so many ways, like anytime they were going to go out for a drive somewhere. Remember, I lived in a very tiny village so we didn't have like fast food restaurants or anything.

45:31 - Chase (Host) Amazing Right, I know. Or restaurants, it was a very tiny, simple village.

45:36 - Najwa (Guest) But as a child, when you see other children getting stuff, you want to be included in it.

45:41 - Chase (Host) Of course.

45:41 - Najwa (Guest) But if I was with them, my aunt would make sure that somebody came and picked me up so that I don't go with them because it's family time.

45:50 - Chase (Host) For clarity is this your brother's sister?

45:54 - Najwa (Guest) So my aunt is my mom's sister and she's married to my uncle, who's my dad's brother. So, they're like two brothers married to two sisters, so it was like both of them were close family.

46:06 - Chase (Host) I see that a lot in my wife's extended family as well.

46:09 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, so that began. I was eight or nine years old. That began. I was eight or nine years old, I don't remember the exact age, but it it kickstarted a belief that I don't deserve that.

46:23 - Chase (Host) I don't belong.

46:23 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, like, why can't I have that? And to me, that was the love, the laughter, the prioritization, the gifts. Not, it's not the monetary value. It's like somebody thought of something that you like and they got it for you, and I uncovered this story in 2019. So how.

46:50 By working with a therapist. She said to me I'm sensing from the way you're talking that there's something trapped around the age of eight or nine. Like did something happen after like having several conversations with her and that story immediately came and it literally felt like I had a like a box of poison somewhere in my body and it all of a sudden opened once. I became aware of it and it felt like my arms were so tense, like my veins hurt. It was that kind of pain, something that was so trapped so 2019.

47:24 - Chase (Host) The deeper you went into this memory, the more physical and visceral that emotion turned into, like a feeling, yeah and now we're in 2024.

47:33 - Najwa (Guest) And it was only a few weeks ago that I was doing a therapy session with a different therapist.

47:39 Now I'm working with a somatic healer, a somatic therapist, and that's some fun work, yeah, yeah a lot of a lot of movement, crying, a lot of being real like I don't hold back in those sessions. So it was only a few weeks ago that I finally asked little me, who was sitting there on the couch wondering what's going on, why can't I be part of that? What's wrong with me? Like turning away or saying but I want what they have, like if I, if I stay here, maybe they'll give me something, or maybe next time they'll give me something. There was always the hope of getting a scrap, which I got occasionally and which explained to me why in my adult years I would work so hard just to get the littlest, tiniest bit like crumbs, when really I deserve you know a whole inclusion in any capacity.

48:38 Yeah, at that point was an ultimate win but I learned that at such a young age. So, um, before anytime I would ask her do you want to come? No, but a few weeks ago she said well, this is making me emotional. She said, like, how are we gonna leave? And I, and I said I have a car. And then my therapist was like you know what you need to tell her, some of the things you think she needs to hear. And I said you know, I have a car now. I have my own place, I make my own money, I have really good friends, I can buy myself anything that I want.

49:17 It was. It literally felt like I'm speaking to a little child that's feeling helpless and like no one's taking care of her, and she's now understanding that I can provide her with all of that. So then my therapist asked, asked me to ask her where do you want to go? Like, where should we leave? And little me said she wanted to go to my grandma's house, which, um it that's the story I begin, the only constant with.

49:48 So my grandma passed away two summers ago and, um, she was probably in my childhood one of the only people who unconditionally loved me. Like, I felt so peaceful in her presence and I felt so safe. She always had my favorite foods. She always spoke to me in words that reminded me of my worth, because I used to get bullied a lot, and she would always remind me of how beautiful of a person I was and she would always tell me you know, people can really envy you. You have beautiful eyes. Like you have to be careful who you surround yourself with and if you ever feel like there's negative, like energy, just come here and I will like make some prayers for you.

50:40 So we went there, me like adult, me and little me to grandmother's house yeah, exactly where she was sitting in the yard and, um, it was extremely therapeutic for me to go through that and I think it took. So I uncovered this pain in 2019 and in 2024, little me agreed to walk away with me from that painful environment.

51:11 - Chase (Host) Was this a part of regular work since discovering this in 2019?

51:15 - Najwa (Guest) And it took almost five years, so I stopped in 2019 and it took almost five years. So I stopped in in 2019. I stopped the sessions and, you know, covet hit and I had welcome home, came out into the world, and then I started therapy again two years ago with a somatic therapist, and it she's I mean I for general reasons or you felt compelled to come back to this work.

51:39 I felt like there was a lot of unresolved trauma inside of me, um, a lot of wounding, a lot of attachment issues that and I know people hear attachment issues and they their mind automatically goes to a romantic partner and it's like attachment isn't just about romantic relationships, it's it. It manifests itself in every way that you conduct yourself. Throughout the day, you're attached to the outcome of something. You're nervous that you're going to get an email that you don't want to see. You're. You're like this is this story. So when I went to came to New York in 2019 to pitch the idea for welcome home my agents, who were new agents at the time like new for me, I had stopped working with the one before. It was the first time I met them in person and they had read my work and they just loved it so much, and so they booked me a whole bunch of interviews with publishers.

52:43 So the very first meeting we went into was with penguin random house, and they're my publisher right now all right um, we walked in and I'm sitting and my agents are there, and the editor is there, and the head editor is there and a couple more people and I'm talking and I'm explaining to them and talking about my experience and what led me to want to transition from poetry to self-help. And, um, we left and on our way down, my agent said one of them uh, mark, he said I need you to remember that you don't need to sell yourself. The fact that you're already sitting in this room at this table means you've sold yourself, so now you need to sit back and listen to what they have to say. I like that. I know I like that. That really woke me up because he was like I feel like I believe in you a lot more than you believe in you, like you're trying to convince them why they should publish you.

53:48 If you're in the room, you're there, you already have a seat at the table, see what they have to offer you. And that was a major life lesson for me. And it wasn't in any way like disrespectful to the publisher, the people who were sitting there. He was just trying to tell me you're trying too hard and it's coming across and for your own sake, I don't want that, because your writing is beautiful. You're gonna get a publishing deal, and I got a deal with them, even though I had met with like more than 10 more. After that, they got the book. So why did I stop therapy and then come?

54:24 - Chase (Host) back to it.

54:25 - Najwa (Guest) So I I lived in a way where I I felt like I had to earn people's love. That's my main core wound is feeling like I have to work hard. I need to earn your love. There is nothing about me walking into this room the first time that you and I met, that where this was in the past where.

54:48 I would walk in and be like I know who I am and this person should respect me for who I am. It wasn't like that. It was like I need to prove to you why you should respect me. Nothing is automatic. It wasn't like that. It was like I need to prove to you why you should respect me, nothing is automatic.

55:00 - Chase (Host) It always has to be earned.

55:01 - Najwa (Guest) Always has to be earned. It's not I am, therefore I'm worthy. It's I do, therefore I'm worthy, and the more I do, the more worthy I am. But I heard this the other day and it like blew my mind away. This was on TikTok and I don't remember the creator's name and I don't even know if it's his work, but the question said hey, if you're a people, pleaser tell me the people in your life who are pleased with you. Right, oh?

55:34 - Chase (Host) man, that seems like so obvious. But also just so. Why did you have to ask me that question, right, oh my?

55:39 - Najwa (Guest) gosh, you're a people pleaser yeah to people who are never going to be pleased. So for me it felt like I was um this is another quote, and I don't know who. It's the reason why you end up in puddles on the floor, like that's the meaning of it. It's so powerful because you're giving way too much of yourself. No one's holding you, you're just like sure I'll take it.

56:15 - Chase (Host) I'll take whatever you can give gladly, whatever I can. I only have the capacity for this much and you're you're a like sure I'll take it. I'll take whatever you can give gladly, whatever I can.

56:18 - Najwa (Guest) I only have the capacity for this much and you're, you're a lot yeah and and so that's why when people say, like if someone tells you you're too much, tell them, go find less but, but. But I also think like when, when, when you feel like you're too much for someone, I wish we would change the language and say because too much is like too anything is. It sounds like a burden, it sounds like you're more than you should be.

56:52 - Chase (Host) You're not conforming to a standard that I am creating in my mind that you have no idea about.

56:56 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah.

56:58 - Chase (Host) And it has nothing to do with your ability or inability, it is just my comfort at all time.

57:03 - Najwa (Guest) So why not, instead of saying I'm too much, saying I am a lot. I am beautiful, I am a giver. I am an empath. I'm someone who believes in people. I'm beautiful, I am a giver, I am an empath. I'm someone who believes in people. I'm someone.

57:22 I'm enough, but to say I'm too much for you, what we end up doing is we make ourselves less so that we could be enough for that person. So I'm going to be 20% of myself, because that's all the other person has the capacity for. When there's a whole 80%, that's like you still have that inside of you and that's you know. Unfulfilled potential is like a silent killer. Ungiven love and empathy and connection is also a silent killer.

58:02 So if you are somebody who believes in love and if you are somebody who has an overflow of wanting to connect with people and wanting to have good, healthy relationships and friendships and to excel your career and to help as many people as possible, but you put yourself in a box that says you're only allowed to be this much, because if you're more, you're too threatening and you're too intimidating and no one will want to be around you. You're suffocating because you can't put all of this into a little box, but you're being forced to. So it's like a silent. You're killing yourself spiritually. That's why people get sick and that's why people get you know you, sometimes I see people after five years of not seeing them and I'm like they look like they've been living for more than five years?

59:00 - Chase (Host) yeah, you're like bro, what happened 40 years?

59:02 - Najwa (Guest) yeah yeah, like life really did a number on you, and it's, it's. We put ourselves in environments that don't nourish us, that don't inspire us, that don't see us, and so we're walking around feeling unseen and just being so worried about how do I get seen? And then all the creativity that's inside of you has nowhere to go, because you're not consumed by being creative and by reaching your full potential. You're being consumed by what is it going to take to make that person see me and love me and respect me. This happens in work environments, too, a lot more than we would like to think, and in family dynamics and relationships in general.

59:47 - Chase (Host) What is a recent professional accomplishment of yours that you are most proud of, and why do you think it happened?

59:59 - Najwa (Guest) I started off in poetry, and poetry you can write about what you're feeling without telling the story right. It's art, right, yeah, you don't need to tell the story. I was showing people my pain and my suffering and who I am as a person, but I never shared my story. 2019, I signed the deal for Welcome Home. Welcome Home was the first self-development book I wrote and I opened up about my life, but not too much, because I was still Tiptoeing in a little bit, huh yeah.

01:00:31 And it was to me, when you're beginning to be vulnerable with the world, To me, when you're beginning to be vulnerable with the world, this much feels like this much right, Like a little tiny bit, feels like a huge mountain. So by the time that the Only Constant came, I wrote it in four months and during that time I wrote another mini book. So I would say in three months I wrote it and I started writing it around the time that I finished my dissertation in education, doing and achieving and doing so well in school and pleasing my parents and pleasing the community and and, oh my god, Nege was so perfect and she's done this and she's done that. So I'm coming off of that and wanting to live intentionally, wanting to no longer be on that hamster wheel, Like I told myself when I'm done my doctorate. That's it. I'm not going to go back to school because I want to live Like I'm tired.

01:01:42 I was 32 at the time and I felt like I was 70 years old. I was so exhausted and then my grandma passed away and that woke me up.

01:01:56 Everything that felt so huge all of a sudden fell to the ground and it was nothing. And the people who I worried so much about like why aren't they loving me? Something inside of me broke towards them, because I had this pure, unconditional love from my grandma and, and she's gone now and nothing will bring her back, and there is no pain of losing someone that will ever be bigger than the pain of losing her. So when I started writing, the only constant I didn't sit with a pen and paper. I sat in front of my laptop and I did voice to text and I just talked and I cried and I just let my heart out, and one thing I told myself was it's not like the book is going to be published tomorrow. You can always take things out, but if you really want to write a book that will change people's lives and teach them how to navigate change that comes to them, change that they choose and change they need to make in order to live an authentic life, then I need to do that.

01:03:06 I need to show them my heart, and I need to show them my struggle with all of these changes, and so I did that. So to me it's not about how many books it's sold, how many copies it's sold. The accomplishment itself is putting that book together. That was it for me the moment I handed it in to my editor. That was the biggest so far professional accomplishment ever professional accomplishment ever.

01:03:37 - Chase (Host) It's a big one. Congratulations again. I was sharing with you earlier. In preparation for this, I've gone to multiple bookstores.

01:03:41 - Najwa (Guest) They're all sold out.

01:03:42 - Chase (Host) So it's great for you. You write because, quote I believe words have the power to transform the world through inspiring authentic change.

01:03:51 - Najwa (Guest) Yes.

01:03:52 - Chase (Host) I interpret that as we have to go from reading to being, from hearing to acting. Knowing without doing is the same thing, I believe, is not knowing. So do you agree? And how do we go from knowing to doing?

01:04:08 - Najwa (Guest) So I actually disagree with you when you say, knowing without doing is the same as not knowing, because sometimes your mind knows but your body doesn't.

01:04:19 And you need to give it time to learn why. What do you mean? Let's say, someone you know is in a very toxic relationship and they know they need to leave, they know they need to end it, but something's stopping them. Shame, but they feel like they just can't do it. They're stuck. Well, it could be because they're sitting up in their mind and they're not going into why it is that their body feels safe in a threatening environment. So they might go back to their childhood and look at all the relationships they were surrounded by and maybe in those relationships there was something called unconditional loyalty, which means it doesn't matter how a person treats you, you stay.

01:05:18 So if as a child, you witnessed one person in a relationship being hurt and they stayed, or you wanted somehow to try to help, but you couldn't as a child. Because you can't, because you literally depend on the adults in your life to shelter you and feed you, and that trauma response of wanting to do something with what just happened, whether it's to express your anger or your fear or your hurt, gets trapped somewhere in your body. And now you're an adult and you haven't released that trauma response. There was the stimulus, the event that happened. There was an emotion that was elicited from it and it stayed stuck inside your body.

01:06:06 For the cycle to complete itself and for you to release that trauma response, you need to tap into that time and what it is that should have happened. That didn't happen. What sensations went throughout your body? Why is it that every time that stimulus happens again now in your adult life, you get stuck again? Because that's where the cycle ended. So for you to be able to transform the knowing from your mind to the doing with your mind and your body, you need to ask yourself why does my body feel like it can't survive ending this relationship?

01:06:49 - Chase (Host) Please go back and say that again.

01:06:51 - Najwa (Guest) Why is it that my body believes that it can't survive the ending of this relationship? Why does my body feel like, if I get up and leave, I'm literally gonna die? I can't, I will not be able to live without this person? So ask yourself that your body feels stuck, even when your mind knows. So that's one of the main themes and the only constant. Actually, I say your body has a choice. You need to remember that it's not just your mind.

01:07:23 When you are going through an experience that's very painful, do not intellectualize it. Do not sit and say, well, that has nothing to do with me, like that person hurt me. It's really. It has to do with them, it has nothing to do with me. Okay, but hold on a minute. If somebody aimed an arrow at you and it hit you somewhere in your body, it injured you, is it enough to say it has nothing to do with me? The pain is still there. You still need to take it out. You still need to heal it. So two things could be true the fact that they chose to hurt you could have nothing to do with you and everything to do with them, but it still hurt you. We intellectualize it so that we don't feel the pain. We think we can protect ourselves, but the true healing is insane. That really hurt. That lie you made up about me, it hurt that betrayal, like the cheating, the. It hurt to be able to sit with yourself and your experience the same way you would sit with someone you love is extremely therapeutic and healing. So when you say knowing without doing is like not knowing, for me it's knowing without doing is missing resources that you never had when you were younger. You need a support system. You need people who show you different evidence from the evidence you received when you were younger and that you're receiving right now. So if the evidence you received in the past was you don't deserve healthy love and now you're experiencing unhealthy love, it feels safe for you because you're used to it. Healthy love, it feels safe for you because you're used to it. Stop looking for evidence that you deserve unhealthy love and start looking at the people who give you healthy love. Then you start rewiring those networks inside of you that instead of saying I don't deserve healthy love, you say I do deserve healthy love Absolutely, and tapping into the pain.

01:09:34 So going back to the trapped trauma response that I was talking about, so let's say, every single time something happened around you in your childhood and relationships, you got stuck in anger. You couldn't express it. You got stuck in fear. You couldn't express it. How does it manifest in your body? Because we have the four trauma responses the fight, flight, freeze or fawn.

01:10:04 For me, it's freeze and fawn. I freeze literally. I will be sitting on the couch and feel like if, even if the door is two meters away from me, I feel trapped. My body freezes to protect me because when I was little, if I didn't freeze and if I made a sound, I was in danger Fawning. People pleasing right. You start sensing like the person who's hurting you. If they start giving you hints that they're going to be nice to you, or if they really amp up the meanness, you think if I do more, they'll see me as more and they won't treat me that way anymore. So figure out what trauma response does your body go to and when you're experiencing it. Instead of judging yourself for being stuck on the couch and not being able to move, try to imagine your energy going inward and genuinely ask yourself where do I feel pain? Where do I feel tension?

01:11:02 for me, it was always my arms and my chest, I would feel like I'm suffocating, like I can't breathe, and so I would start to soothe myself like kind of give myself a hug and start breathing, like for longer periods of time. So you practice to self-soothe in a way that you didn't know how to do when you were younger. That's what gets you unstuck from that trapped trauma response, because now you're allowing the anger, the sadness, because you might start crying when you do this and you might get up and go for a run to let go of some of that pent up energy or anger or whatever it is, and that's how the cycle completes itself. And now you're free of it how we can break the cycle.

01:11:46 - Chase (Host) Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah so.

01:11:49 - Najwa (Guest) So let's change it from knowing without doing is like not knowing to knowing without doing probably means that you don't have the right tools and supports to do, and you probably your survival mode tells you you can't do by what you know well, you do now, because you have the greatest episode of ever forward radio to hit the airwaves.

01:12:14 - Chase (Host) So yeah, this is, this is your new tool, everybody.

01:12:16 - Najwa (Guest) Absolutely.

01:12:17 - Chase (Host) I appreciated that.

01:12:18 - Najwa (Guest) I feel like some people might be listening and being like what is she talking about? It's all scientifically proven.

01:12:26 - Chase (Host) You have shared a lot of your own life of displacement, discrimination, hardship, what. What comes to mind if you want to take a second to think. What is the most prominent example you can recall and what prompted you to share such a personal experience with others, because it's not easy for a lot of people to share. This is when I was hurt the most. This is when I was discriminated against the most.

01:12:51 - Najwa (Guest) This is when I was abused the most.

01:12:53 - Chase (Host) But you really you lead from the front with these things and who knows? I mean I'm sure there are parts of your story that maybe haven't come out yet or maybe they never will, but the parts that have are pretty powerful. Can you give us one, of course?

01:13:07 - Najwa (Guest) When I talk about my relationship with my family. That was one of the hardest things for me to talk about, because I was always so worried that if I talked about the things in my childhood that should have happened that didn't, that people would look at my parents as bad people. And I don't think they're bad people and I think they did the best they could with the tools they had, also, based on their own upbringing, they probably thought we're giving you a lot more than we ever got, but that was something I always did. Is I always worried about other people who may have, maybe unintentionally, caused me pain, instead of going into my experience and saying but how did that affect me? Whether they intended it or not, how did it affect me?

01:14:00 And the absence of my parents when I was younger, during very crucial anybody? And she learned that no one could or would protect her if harm came her way. So I grew up with a very lonely existence, and it wasn't just loneliness, it was feeling like I didn't belong in this world. So, yes, there was external displacement of going from one house to the next when I lived with different relatives, but there was also the internal displacement where I didn't know who I was and my idea of who I was was who can I be in this environment? And I'll be that.

01:15:06 - Chase (Host) What do you need me to be? And I'll do it.

01:15:08 - Najwa (Guest) I was even like a mature adult and therapist to certain family relatives, like extended family, when I was 11 years old, talking to me about their marriages. And you know I put on that hat too because you know you're mature and it's because I I never really passed the first few years of my life. I don't remember playing much, I don't remember being a kid. I remember always thinking when I would look at kids, even if they were older than me. They're kids, but I was a kid too but I'm not yeah, but I didn't see at the time.

01:15:48 It was like I'm, I'm mature, I'm and you know my dad is very stoic. Emotions are very hard for him to comprehend. So there's one story I talk about in the only constant between me and my dad and I call it the airplane story, and it was um around the time when I decided I no longer wanted to wear the hijab and I remember the first time I said it to my dad he was just like, don't even think about it. Okay, and like I told you my dad, I grew up with my dad taking me to his Christian friends and his Druze friends and I never really saw my dad as somebody who was hyper religious, like he's faithful, but Did you bring it up to him and them out of?

01:16:31 - Chase (Host) I'm seeking permission.

01:16:32 - Najwa (Guest) No, or I'm informing, Informing, I'm thinking about it. That's what I said. I'm very stubborn, by the way, even though I am a people pleaser and I'm whatever. When I make up my mind on something, I do it, and that's one of the things that my therapist tells me.

01:16:51 - Chase (Host) Like that's something you need to cherish and embrace, cherish stubbornness.

01:16:54 - Najwa (Guest) Cherish it Because and she says it's, I don't think it's stubbornness, says I think it's your integrity. It's when you, when you know something is right for you or when you know something's not right for you, nothing will make you yeah, accept it. And when you know something is right for you, nothing will make you veer away from it thing and integrity absolutely yes to the outside world. Yeah.

01:17:19 - Chase (Host) Many other people will look like stubbornness.

01:17:21 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, so I used to define it as stubbornness because that's how it was defined for me, like you're stubborn, your head is like a rock. If I put your, your head and mountain together, like your head would break the mountain, I would hear stuff like that Like that's how hard headed.

01:17:36 - Chase (Host) I was.

01:17:36 - Najwa (Guest) You know I would hear stuff like that, so, um, so when I talked to him about it, I knew his issue wasn't with me taking it off. Why would I make that decision, which is what it turned out to be so a few months later. And because when I informed them, I didn't just do it the next day. I mean, I had been wearing it since I was like in grade seven, so it was a huge deal to me. So I was taking my time making the decision. So my dad invited me over one day and and I had also moved out of my parents' home which in our culture you don't do as a woman you get married and you move out.

01:18:12 So I had done some things to kind of say this is who I am, kind of say this is who I am like when I make a decision, I, I go for it. So I went over and I was sitting. We were sitting on opposite ends of the couch and my dad was staring at the tv and I'm staring ahead and, like I said, my dad's very stoic, so I'm sitting there not sensing any sense of emotion from him, so he, he goes. You know, when you first told me about that, I just I thought to myself like why? Maybe you're going through an identity crisis, maybe I worried about you.

01:18:49 He's like I never thought that that was something you would change about yourself. And then he said and I was worried about you because you just started your writing career and you know, know, I didn't want people to think you don't know who you are like, they won't trust you as a writer anymore. He said, just like when an airplane is taking off, like it's very important that there's no shakiness, it's very steady in the path it's taking until it gets up there. Then he's like and then I realized you're, you're no longer taking off, you're already up there among the stars. You know who you are, so like, I trust you with your decision. And and I, when my dad said that to me, I think I felt so loved by him and it was followed by an enormous amount of resentment. And why the hell do I have to work so hard to get a moment of connection like that with my dad.

01:19:45 Why do I have to get through the struggle on my own? For months I've been making this decision and feeling very lonely in it and all of a sudden, like at the point when he knew I was gonna move forward with it now you enter the chat and you're like I'm okay with it?

01:20:04 - Chase (Host) Why does it take me, challenging cultural and religious norms for us to have this level of connection and what I'm hearing, for him to really truly see you?

01:20:15 - Najwa (Guest) Yes, and on my own'm challenging them and and and it got me to think back on my whole life. And that was the pattern is I would wait years sometimes for a moment of feeling like my dad is human and again I'm not saying he's a bad person because men are raised to be that way, especially from older generations. Like, be a man, don't show your emotions. Like he obviously has his own traumas. But again I need to stop looking at other people's experiences to take away from my right to feel the pain of what they caused me. Like I can see your story but I'm not not gonna step outside of mine to be with you and yours wow, that is such a potentially painful, truthful realization we often abandon ourselves to be there in someone else's story and and then it becomes all about them.

01:21:21 But what about us? So you have to learn to maybe see the stories as two parallels. And I'm holding your hand as you walk through your story and you're also holding mine as I'm walking through mine, but I don't need to leave mine. And you're also holding mine as I'm walking through mine, but I don't need to leave mine, like that's not a testament of love. You know, you hear people talk couples when they make their speeches at their weddings.

01:21:48 And you know, the videos were in the background. They're talking while they're getting ready. They'll say, like you know, he's stuck by me even when I pushed him away and I put him through hell and whatever, and that's how I knew he's the one, because he stayed during all of that.

01:22:02 that bothers me really does, because it I don't think love should be a sacrificial thing. I don't think that you need to be able to step all over a person and they stay with you for you to be like oh, I stepped all over them and they accepted it. Therefore they really love me.

01:22:25 - Chase (Host) But don't you think love in some way does require sacrifice?

01:22:29 - Najwa (Guest) Yes, but it has to be reciprocal, not just one sided.

01:22:35 - Chase (Host) I'm not staying with this person because of their great sacrifice for me. It's because of the recognition of mutual sacrifices all along yeah, what like?

01:22:43 - Najwa (Guest) what about the growth that that they inspired? You to have?

01:22:47 - Chase (Host) and also, isn't that a? Uh? I might be getting my terms mixed up here, but you know narcissism yes, but you know this idea that the level to which someone might believe that a sacrifice was made by a significant other or just another person in our life, so that it becomes the reason why we stick around, that's on them. That's not a win for you.

01:23:10 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, exactly, you have to reflect on the type of people you have in your life. Some people are narcissistic in a way that's like overblown. We all have narcissistic tendencies. I think, when your ego steps in, and all you see is, I'm doing this so that I could be so. I could see myself as, like all powerful.

01:23:31 - Chase (Host) We all have self-preservation sneak in every once in a while.

01:23:34 - Najwa (Guest) But if you have someone in your life who constantly degrades you and constantly brings you down and constantly makes you feel like you're not good enough, then it is not a testament of your love for them for you to accept that sometimes the kindest thing you do for someone is to walk away from them, because not only are you teaching them a lesson as in it's not vindictive but it's saying you can't do that. You can't just be awful and expect to get the complete opposite in return, over and over and over. Also, relationships are like. They're like a plant with and water. They're like a, a plant with and water.

01:24:25 And if, if you are always, always, always watering the other person and with healthy love and showing up for them and and seeing the best in them and inspiring them and empowering them and being there during the hard times, but with you, they're pouring belittling comments and abuse and neglect and emotional withholding. And then what do you think that the plant is going to grow? No, we think we're like superheroes in relationships. I find we think well, if I can tell myself that has nothing to do with me, have their own issues, then I'll be fine. No, what are you accepting to be injected into you.

01:25:03 There has to come a point where you say I don't want to be fed this version of love anymore. I want a different one and I deserve a different one. So that's why that the self-sacrificial version of love I don't like it. Like there should be mutual sacrifices for the two of you, and maybe a better word is compromise instead of sacrifice. But if it's always one way, I've had people tell me you can't think of yourself in a relationship. You have to think of the other person, and I'm like no, especially when I don't feel like I'm being thought of.

01:25:46 So don't tell me it's selfish to want to be considered, knowing that I had that belief my entire life and God knows how hard I worked to deprogram myself.

01:26:03 - Chase (Host) So yeah, Well, it's a good thing my second guest canceled because we are just rolling right through the whole block.

01:26:07 - Najwa (Guest) I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation and you're being an incredible trooper.

01:26:11 - Chase (Host) I know the day that you've had and the hours that you've been up, so I do have. I would like to get to just a couple more points before we kind of get towards the end here. Yeah, so we're going back to your latest book. The Only Constant is about quote embracing change and leading an authentic life.

01:26:27 - Najwa (Guest) Yes.

01:26:28 - Chase (Host) Does that then imply that we cannot live an authentic life without first learning how to embrace change?

01:26:36 - Najwa (Guest) I think the two could happen at the same time. How to embrace change. I think the two could happen at the same time. You can learn how to lead an authentic life while you're learning how to embrace change. Someone once came to me and said I actually wrote about it in there. She said in order for me to figure out my purpose in life, I need to figure out who I am first. And I don't know who I am. And I said I think you can be someone who's figuring out who you are, just like you're someone who's figuring out what your purpose is Like. The two could happen at the same time. What are you curious about? Start there, because the things that you're curious about out in the world reflect something inside of you absolutely absolutely so you could.

01:27:20 - Chase (Host) You could do both curiosity is such an incredible underutilized teacher.

01:27:24 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah and when you're trained to not ask questions or questions just mean that you're like like go google it, go find it here, go find it there. It's like, especially with little kids, I say why are we telling them to not do the most basic human, do human, human thing that we all do, which is to wonder how does that work and why is that like that? And and what if I did this or did that? It's like we say no, there is one answer, and it's in a textbook, or it's on a website, or it's in.

01:28:03 - Chase (Host) Or it's because this is how I always do it.

01:28:05 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, exactly, or this is how it's always been done, yeah.

01:28:10 So I think you can learn how to embrace change as you learn how to lead an authentic life. How to lead an authentic life, and in that chapter where I talk about leading an authentic life, I talk about the importance of breaking bonds to people who hold you to an inauthentic you. So, um, not just bonds to people in your life right now who require you to be inauthentic, but also to past versions of you that were conditioned that they had to be inauthentic, but also to past versions of you that were conditioned that they had to be inauthentic. Like you have to break that bond, you have to sever it, and the best way I could explain the detriment of not breaking those bonds is when a woman gives birth.

01:28:59 If it doesn't happen, like if there is a new life inside of you that is created and now it's time for it to be out into the world, a lot of people know what their authentic life looks like, but they're so afraid of taking that leap to actually live it and they say, well, I, I'm fine, like I've learned how to survive. If a woman was supposed to give birth and didn't give birth on time, then it's not just oh, she didn't give birth. There's a really big detriment that happens to her body and to this new life that she was supposed to give. Both suffer, both suffer. So both you and your authentic truth will suffer if you don't take the steps to live out that authentic truth. It's not as simple as saying well, you know what, I'm too old, you know time has passed too set in my ways.

01:29:56 - Chase (Host) You're suffering old dog, new tricks.

01:29:57 - Najwa (Guest) You're suffering, you're internally drowning yourself, and so in that chapter I also talk about, I say don't negotiate your change with people who want you to stay the same, because we do that right, right before we're about to take a big step. Yeah, I want to make sure that they're okay with it, that they're not example, with the hijab in your family?

01:30:22 - Chase (Host) yes, absolutely yeah.

01:30:24 - Najwa (Guest) So me informing them was really also me testing the waters to see are they gonna abandon me? Are they gonna like, emotionally and figuratively and I also I I went in depth about this in the only constant as well. I said, in relationships where you feel like the continuing of this relationship is 100% on your back, that's not a relationship. So if you think, if I make this decision, if I take this step, which is for myself, and they decide that they no longer want to be in my life, or that they're disappointed or they're not going to accept me that way, if you think that your choice means that you are choosing for them to abandon you, stop thinking that way. Your choice is to make a choice for yourself and to live an authentic life. Their half of the deal is that they've decided not to accept you that way. So the relationship isn't 100 on your back. Yeah, if, if making a decision for yourself has a byproduct or a consequence that has nothing to do with you or with your wanting to hurt other people, but it happened and they said to you I can't believe you did that. I will never accept you as you are, or they treat you that way without saying those words, it doesn't mean you are the one who caused that abandonment or that disappointment. That's on them to deal with. So don't negotiate your change with people who want you to stay the same, because the only other option is that you stay the same and you suffocate internally.

01:32:20 So one really powerful line that I have in there is um, when a reality becomes too heavy to carry, which is the authentic truth that you want to live, or the truth that you've been experiencing that you haven't talked about, or whatever when a reality becomes too heavy to carry, maybe what it needs is that you just let it fall to the ground.

01:32:49 Maybe that's what's going to shatter the world around you, and maybe the world around you needs to be shattered so that you could step into a new one, into a new reality. So we're so afraid of, like disrupting the world around us that we continue to carry that like I really need to make this change, but I'm so scared. And what if this happens? What if that happens? This thing happened to me and I really need to speak up about it, but what if I say it and then this person fights with this person? Maybe you need to just let it, let it out and let it break the world around you if it needs to. Maybe that is what needs to happen. Maybe you deserve to be on more solid ground, on different ground and with different scenery and different people.

01:33:36 - Chase (Host) Yeah, I'll share a quick example about that that I just resonate so deeply with. A couple of years ago, when I went through some some of my most intense therapies, I had this experience in one session, where it was this realization that I was being passed from one world quite literally into another. And it was the world that I knew, full of all the people that had gotten me there and had kept me there, but they also then kind of ushered me into this new blank canvas planet world.

01:34:09 And I really love how you kind of described how maybe we need to let that go. Maybe the new world, maybe the real authentic us, needs to finally get off of our shoulders and shatter the current one. That and I had this realization you brought this up earlier that really two things can exist at the same time, Two truths can happen, can coexist, and I felt this immense relief that I felt so tethered to this old world and this one that, oh well, it's where everybody knows me and I'm this version. I have these identities and all these people help get me to everywhere that I am in life.

01:34:44 But I felt this pull to this other one, my authentic self was just dying to come out and instead of like abandoning completely abandoning that one, I go. Oh, like I can be in this world, but not of it. I can still be in it and appreciate and support all the people that got me here and have fond memories of these things in the past, or even still my present, while also building my own new one. And it was this immense relief for me that I didn't have to completely let go of or felt like I needed to apologize or to defend myself. It was. I can be here with you in this way, and then I'm also over here in my world as well, yeah.

01:35:28 - Najwa (Guest) So back to what you asked me, then let's make that connection where you said can you live an authentic life and embrace change at the same time? So, as you navigated those two worlds, those two identities and two realities, you were learning how to embrace change and you were moving towards a more authentic life. So those two things happened at the same time. That pull that you felt it probably was because you mastered the art of being that person. It's easy, it's so easy, to walk into a room and put on a show and, whereas being authentic, you're real, you're going to say no when you want to say no and you're going to sit with the discomfort of disappointing others. It's so much easier to be in an environment where you're like no's okay, you know, because you don't deal with the discomfort, but you are internally the discomfort within yourself.

01:36:27 - Chase (Host) So, yeah, thank you for sharing that of course, and it took me about right, about three years. I'll say it felt like I was. You know, I'm in a sci-fi movie and earth is dying and we got to send people off to go find another planet that we can inhabit, and it was about a three-year colonization journey.

01:36:42 For me, it was about a three-year of when I started these therapies and these modalities and kind of had these realizations and really sat with it, went into the integration work and, you know, built out this new world Now where I am now a little over three years, you know.

01:37:02 - Najwa (Guest) I'm on earth too, you know earth one is still there.

01:37:05 - Chase (Host) It didn't blow up Like we might think, uh, it can live without me. I didn't really offend these people, honestly. A lot of these things that I thought were going to happen or relationships that were going to get crushed, or even who I might turn into Fears around that Is this right? Is this wrong? Is this really me? Who is the real me? Who am I trying to please? Am I getting any appeasement out of it? Earth 2 is doing great and Earth 1 is still surviving, doing its own thing. Wow, what was?

01:37:33 - Najwa (Guest) your turning point? Wow, what was your turning point?

01:37:37 - Chase (Host) So I was turning 36.

01:37:41 - Najwa (Guest) Okay.

01:37:42 - Chase (Host) And I had kind of come to the end of my rope, so to speak, with where I was. I was sharing with you earlier the origin story of Everford Radio. At that point it had been about 16 years since my dad passed away and I was just really, really really tired of staying stuck in the past. I really like, I love my dad but I wanted to move on and I couldn't. And so I went through ketamine assisted psychotherapy and I, you know, for years I'd done a lot of different work journaling, self help, on and off again with therapy.

01:38:14 In many, many ways the podcast was therapeutic and just connecting with community going through similar struggles. And so it wasn't until I chose to like I have kind of exhausted all other options in my opinion and I'm not where I feel like I want to be in terms of my life and my emotional health, my mental health. And so I was like, let me just fully commit and let me jump in the deep end, so to speak. And so I did that and that um ketamine assisted psychotherapy with other, um, different modalities of you know, uh, plant medicine, and just really choosing to commit to mental health and therapy on a regular basis, yeah, especially over the next year after that was having experiences like this, and then weeks, months of integration with that kind of landed me at that at that realization. So it was really I don't want to keep living this way To your point. My authentic self was trying so hard to break free.

01:39:09 And I kind of come up. It was I'm. You know, we're both at the surface of the self at the same time and I finally, like we finally synced up and I was like, all right, you come through, the other one no longer needs to try to keep forcing you down yeah, wow, do you remember at like a moment where you were like that's it like an actual moment?

01:39:31 so the story I shared about kind of leaving one world and going, to another that was my second journey that I had with the therapist, with the ketamine medicine, with ketamine, with the medicine, and in that journey it was literally I was like being crowd surfed with any and every person that I'd interacted with my entire life, that consciously or subconsciously influenced my life to help get me here, you know, loved me, supported me.

01:39:59 I remember literally being passed over. People were holding me up, passing me through, and I was looking back and I would see, oh, I'm leaving a planet, leaving earth, leaving a planet. And they passed me all through and I saw every single person of 36 years and I was met with the entity, the being of my father, and he sat with me. We kind of like my dad and I, we all just kind of had these moments.

01:40:22 And he spoke to me without speaking to me and he unlocked this permission in me to leave that behind. He's like Chase turn, look at it, appreciate it, respect it, but you can also turn and I'll face. And it was this completely blank, wide, open planet. And the second that I acknowledged, like I always knew that was there. But once I finally internally gave myself permission to go there, to begin to go there, I'll never forget that session afterwards and for days I felt literally the weight of a world. Leave my body.

01:40:55 Wow, it was just this intense pressure and just suppression.

01:41:01 - Najwa (Guest) It was a purge. Yeah, wow yeah.

01:41:03 - Chase (Host) And during I'll never forget I felt like the weight of the world, like as I was being passed through. I felt the weight of the world Like I was Atlas, you know, holding, holding up the planet and um, and for a brief moment I was in between. And so then I took on the weight of this new world, but it was a welcomed weight.

01:41:25 - Najwa (Guest) Wow, you were ready for it. You were ready for it.

01:41:29 - Chase (Host) To me 16 years to get to that point, to finally surrender. Enough, to all right. You no longer have to stay in suffering. Your authentic self. Whatever part of that you think is there, whatever you know that looks like it feels like, commit to it, but also create space for, you know, chase. At 36, you know, I felt like I was becoming my own self for the first time yeah I didn't know who I was until 36 and it took me three years to really kind of solidify that even after that realization.

01:41:58 - Najwa (Guest) I wish more people would hear that, because I think people want an easy answer like read this book and your life will change, and I've. With every book I've written, I I always say healing yeah, and leading an authentic life isn't as simple as knowing like you have to do the work and it takes years, so don't judge yourself. I'm sure you went through a period during those 16 years where you were shaming yourself a lot, like I know all this stuff why?

01:42:29 am I not just doing it. Well, you're doing the work, you were journaling, you were doing everything that you could and then one one day it just clicks. That's why I asked you is there a moment? Because I know usually that moment is the culmination of everything you've worked so hard for. It doesn't just come out of nowhere.

01:42:48 - Chase (Host) No people might listen to that and they go, oh, if I do this type of therapy, if I do this type of work, I'll have the experience that Chase had. Maybe, maybe, but really listen, I worked on myself for 16 years to try to get to that point, mm-hmm 16 years.

01:43:10 Well, speaking of pops, I would love to get to our last question. Okay, and to live a life ever forward means a lot of different things. It has transformed in definition to me over the years. It's gone from being I need to keep only ever pushing on, pushing on. For pushing on sake, there's a time and a place for that, but now I really feel like ever forward means learning how to be as incredibly present and aware as possible and respect and love, like the infinite possibilities that exist when I am so present, so that I can then know how to take the right next step forward. What does that mean to you, najwa? Ever forward, how would you say you live a life ever forward?

01:43:57 - Najwa (Guest) I live a life ever forward by. I live a life ever forward by beginning with the present moment, by beginning with where I am, by understanding that there is no moment in the future that's going to bring me the relief that I need to give myself right now. I could work as hard as I can to reach that milestone where I think, if I have that thing or that person in my life or that amount of money, I could say to myself that's what's going to make me happy. But really, I think to live in an ever forward kind of way, it's to be with that contentment right now, because that's ultimately what's going to push you forward. It's not thinking that thing that I really want is somewhere ahead of me. It's like it starts here. It might be ahead of you, but it starts here and with you.

01:44:50 So I've I've always said my message with the only constant was yes, change is the only constant in your life, but you are also the only constant in your life. So to me, connecting that to the message of ever forward, it's like if there is one person in your life that you need to trust in moving you ahead, it's yourself, because you are the person who's existed in your life since day one, since moment one. If there's one person who you need to give compassion to instead of shame, it's you. If there's one person that you need to believe in, it's you. Stop only doing it for other people. Do it for yourself first. That's how you move forward in life. Yeah.

01:45:38 - Chase (Host) Never a right or a wrong answer. I always say thank you for that interpretation. Of course, Everything will be linked for my audience in the show notes and on YouTube. Here in the video notes the description when can I go to connect with you today?

01:45:50 - Najwa (Guest) I'm on all social media platforms. At Nezha Zabian N-A-J-W-A-Z-E-B-I-A-N, you can find the Only Constant wherever books are sold.

01:46:01 - Chase (Host) I narrate the audio books, not at my bookstores, apparently Anywhere books are sold, but not wherever Chase is looking.

01:46:06 - Najwa (Guest) You know, I notice they're selling quickly and then the replenishment takes a while. I'm not sure if that's what's happening or if people are buying them too much.

01:46:13 - Chase (Host) Lucky me, my perfect timing.

01:46:16 - Najwa (Guest) Yeah, so that's where you can find me, and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation too Thank you, and I think it's beautiful that you honor your dad's memory in that way and that you also, like, honor your own evolution and your own life through this work?

01:46:34 - Chase (Host) I do now Absolutely yeah. The show has been running like I said over seven years now. I do now absolutely yeah, the show has been running like I said over seven years now, and the chase influence, the chase part of living ever forward, has only happened the last three.

01:46:45 - Najwa (Guest) Okay, so you are now 39?.

01:46:48 - Chase (Host) Turning 39 in the fall Okay. Yeah.

01:46:51 - Najwa (Guest) Wow.

01:46:52 - Chase (Host) Yeah, I don't math. Good, so almost three years, two and a half years, so I'm going to go back and listen to some episodes before.

01:46:59 - Najwa (Guest) And compare to the after and see.

01:47:02 - Chase (Host) Ever forward. Well thank you so much. This was incredible. I have thoroughly enjoyed every two hour and two minutes of this. So we're going to wrap up and get out of here. For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to everforwardradio.com