EFR 807: Sauna, Red Light and Infrared Therapy and The Most Effective Ways to Regenerate Skin, Repair Muscle Tissue, and Reset Your Innate Biological Healing Powers with Robby Besner

00:00 - Speaker 1 The following is an Operation Podcast production.

00:03 - Speaker 2 A lot is lost in translation. We easily become sort of complacent and the one-a-day vitamin, the simple pill you take that cures everything. I mean it's a fast-food way of thinking which, again, I think is very far from the way that, far away from primal healing or being in touch with nature, and because of that I think that explains in my mind and what I've experienced in all my bio researching when we're not in touch with nature, then we're not really fully exercising a lot of our natural systems for healing and all those systems designed to be communing with nature and earth energy and sun energy, good water, good air, you'd be remiss to go.

00:47 - Speaker 1 Oh well, you know I'm not sick. Well, we're exposed to things every damn day. Exposure does not always automatically yield injury or illness, you know it takes things a little while. So if we can enhance our body's ability to daily kick these things out of here, well, there's your proof.

01:03 - Speaker 2 Hi, I'm Robbie Bessner. I am the co-founder and device developer of Therasage. We specialize in harnessing full spectrum infrared devices. I just want to welcome you to Ever Forward Radio.

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02:58 Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to Ever Forward Radio. I am your host, chase Tuning, certified health coach, army veteran and just overall enthusiast for life. I'm always looking for ways to maintain things that I have instilled in my daily rituals, my daily habits, my wellness practice. But I'm also always looking to optimize and that could be something as simple as a little tweak in my diet, that could be focusing on some mindset practices, or it could be like what today's guest, robbie Bessner, is diving into, and that is really understanding some extracurricular activities, some ways and tools, some things that I can use in my gym practice, for my sleep health, for at home, just really. There's no wrong way to learn about the power of light and the ways that I can maximize my training, my recovery, my downtime, my mental health. I just learned so much from Robbie, the co-founder of Therasage, and really what we can tap into in terms of ancient health practices, things that humans have been using for thousands of years. But now this kind of modern approach, because I don't know about you, but I live a modern life. I have a very demanding life and I demand a lot of my life because I've just learned what is possible, when I learned how to optimize, when I learned how to develop and maintain physical and mental resilience to keep me moving ever forward in life. I love it and I'd be willing to bet you do too. That's why you're here.

04:26 So in today's episode we discuss how this kind of quick fix, fast food mentality a lot of people might have fall short when it comes to true wellness and the importance of syncing our health routines with nature's rhythms. He is going to be shedding light pun intended on the transformative power of full spectrum infrared therapy, different forms of light therapy, and then together we're going to unravel some common pitfalls, misconceptions of trendy health protocols, especially for those dealing with chronic ailments, detoxification and so much more. If you've ever been curious about the benefits of infrared sauna therapy, red light therapy, this episode is for you. Robbie is in studio with me. If you want to check out the video, I'll have it linked for you in the show notes, but you can also subscribe to us over on YouTube. Youtube channel has been growing like crazy the last few months. Thank you all so much. Smash that thumbs up button Subscribing really does mean the world and helps the show grow and get even more amazing. Guests level up production all of the things. It also helps kind of spread the word so that others can learn how to live a life ever forward as well.

05:33 And you know a lot of what Robbie is talking about here today comes down to our body's ability or inability to cleanse itself, to get rid of certain toxins and to just make sure that we are running a clean machine inside and out. And there are a lot of practices that we can do daily, such as light therapy, infrared sauna, to help our body get rid of such toxins and help our cells stay as fresh and rejuvenated as possible. But let's take it a step further. Inside of every single cell in our body, there are these little, teeny, tiny little powerhouses that are responsible for helping us create energy that contribute to our aging process. I'm sure you've heard this word by now, and that is mitochondria.

06:19 So have you recycled your mitochondria today? Let me explain. So think about your dishwasher in your kitchen, right, just like we need to run the dishwasher to clean the dirty dishes in our kitchen. We need to actively clean out our old mitochondria through healthy practices like diet, exercise, adequate rest, etc. But what if your dishwasher or your body isn't running like it used to? That is where today's sponsor, timeline Nutrition's MitoPure, comes in.

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08:39 - Speaker 2 There's a diminishing return in workout.

08:41 You spent a lot of time identifying and fine-tuning what that means.

08:46 But if you got your body to understand that Mondays were arm trainings and Wednesdays were legs and Fridays were back and you did that, you'd get a fairly great response in the beginning.

09:00 But then what happens is you've got this steep learning and earning curve, your body earning and understanding the change, and then the body says, okay, I got that routine down and then the curve starts to soften out a little bit and flatten out and then in some cases over training because you're trying to do more of the same, and then you start to actually go in the opposite direction where it's not beneficial anymore. But if all you did was do the same kind of routine but change the days you did it, the time of days that you did it, it can make all the difference in the way keeping or tricking your body into always being kind of on the edge, never really knowing right. So we kind of practice that a lot in healthcare. I've spent a fair amount of research understanding that the way that you sequence the protocols that you do and even the way that you dose the protocols can make all the difference in a good response or a fabulous response.

09:57 - Speaker 1 So I love that you brought up the word protocol. I feel like protocol right now is one of the most trendy words and it is what so many people are looking for in podcasts and social media, their trainers, their community. What is the protocol? What is your protocol? What do you do? How do you do it? What's the frequency, intensity, time type, dose, all of these things so that I can just extract and mimic. Really, where do you see people going wrong, latching onto protocol for the sake of protocol right now and their health?

10:30 - Speaker 2 Well, first off, most of them probably work and I think what's happened is that we're kind of living in a sort of a fast food approach to life. I'll try this for a week and if it doesn't work for me then I'll try something else for a week and I'll try something else for a week. You know, and I mean there's a whole different discussion you and I could have when you're healthy and you're just trying things out to see, you know, a new diet that might work for you, or sleeping pattern change, or affirmations that might support your emotional healing. Now, if you take that same discussion and you have it with someone that's got a chronic ailment, like Lyme disease or chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia, cancer, even some of the things that people worry about, they don't have all the time in the world to keep testing things out. They just see their lives and their futures dwindling in front of them. There's a different feeling to it altogether and I think in that context they don't really have a sense of having all the time in the world. So they don't really. They're a lot more sensitive to getting a real result right away, because they don't feel like they have all the time that they might need to give a protocol its time to mature. That's why I started with most of them work. But the problem is that most people are too anxious or expecting, have an unrealistic expectation for a result right away and because of that when they don't get it they say, oh, this one's not right for me, oh, this doctor's advice is not right for me, I'll try another one. I'll try another one, I'll try another one. And I think that's part of a problem now, just maybe more of a mental problem than anything. I've seen this just maybe more of a mental problem than anything. I've seen this.

12:28 My company and the devices that we make harness full-spectrum infrared frequencies from sunlight. It's a natural healing event that we're creating and it gives you what's called a visceral response. If it's a healing pad, you put it on your body, you feel the heat, you feel the energy, you feel the love. And so when we work with health care practitioners and individuals, they and we offer a protocol or a way to optimize their experience with the devices that we make. We we know, and we actually see it in statistically, that patient compliance people staying with a program. They'll be more inclined to do that when you can give them some kind of instant gratification. Sure Right. So to play into that fast food thinking that we just discussed, if I'm telling you, take this nutritional support, some supplement, and pair that with using this red light system or this infrared system and you start to feel really good from the infrared because you're going to get that right away.

13:32 Within eight minutes the average adult is going to feel a change. And you go. I'm feeling pretty good from this on body experience. The doctor or the health provider said do this and then do that. So I'm getting good from here. I may as well stick with the other one to see how far it goes, and so we're. We're turning that 30, 40% compliance or non-compliance to 80% compliant. Wow, when you pair up a, a protocol, that has some kind of visceral response or that instant gratification plays into that a little.

14:09 - Speaker 1 Can you walk us through a little bit more of these devices, these modalities of light therapy, red light therapy. What are the best ways to go about it, what are the effective doses, the protocols, if you will, and what can people realistically expect?

14:26 - Speaker 2 All right. Well, I guess maybe we could start at the beginning, which speaks to subtle energies. And again, you know like everyone's looking for the big things, but actually we're seeing a lot more responses to subtle energies than we are to necessarily the big things, because that stuff seems to go away like the Big Bang, seems to have an initial response but isn't necessarily sustainable. And what's an example of a subtle energy? Well, sunlight, for instance. Okay, we take it for granted. Actually, in California, and probably in Florida, we're more shunned if we go in the sun than not, which is completely contradicting what we see in lab and in all of our science studies.

15:10 And wait, I mean we're talking about thousands of articles published. It's actually elements of sunlight that have so many more healing benefits, and part of the challenge is this okay, so there are various different spectrums of light energy, and today we're just going to talk about UV, or ultraviolet versus infrared, and they're pretty close to one another on the way that the sun delivers these energies to the earth. The UV lights are the ones that are responsible for giving us a suntan, and there are some wavelengths. It's measured in what's called a nanometer, and so there are some nanometers within uv spectrum that actually aren't really good for us there. They will alter your dna and rna if you're overexposed but again, let's go back again.

15:54 - Speaker 1 The poison is in the dose. Yeah, wow, with everything the poison is in the.

15:59 - Speaker 2 I love that but I want to relate that to the evolution of the planet. And so let's say the animal kingdom. You have a cow or an animal that's grazing all day. They're getting way overexposed to UV light, right. Right, yeah, they're out there all the time. Okay and then.

16:14 But the difference is is that in nature there's actually mechanisms of balance, and so the infrared spectrum has the okay. So the sun's direction to the earth is called the azimuth, and then the sun doesn't change its location. But the earth is turning through the day right, and so in the early part of the day the uv spectrum is more prevalent in in our light exposure. And so if you stay in uv light too long, then you're going to get red and you're going to get overexposed. But then the next, as the earth is rotating, the next spectrum that becomes present and prevalent is the infrared spectrum, which is the healing elements of sunlight. So if you get overexposed for UV and you hang out in IR infrared long enough, you're going to heal any of the damage that may have occurred. Oh, wow, wow. So the challenge in today's modern world is we get the UV, we get the suntan, we get the redness, but we don't hang out long enough.

17:10 We don't get the other we don't get the other Interesting, interesting. And so there it is, the yin-yang, or the balance that nature provides us. So for me I stumbled into the aspects of the healing elements of infrared because when my um, my oldest child, my daughter, contracted lyme disease, uh, I was looking for natural ways for her to heal herself and so we hooked up with the top leading lyme literate doctor still considered that in the industry, but back then he was way considered that and and then, and he was in, he was on Long Island, we were already living in South Florida, so we would travel up every six weeks to tweak our daughter's protocol and then go back and do it, you know. And then I was kind of like watching that dynamic and I realized that for someone with a chronic ailment, that the onus, the emphasis is on that individual that has the challenge, then their family unit around them that's supporting them, and then maybe their medical team if they're lucky enough to support that right. So you spend maybe an hour or two with your doctor and then you go back for six weeks to try to work the protocol. So really's mostly about that, that that home application and the individual's application Right.

18:28 And so when I looked at that and, having healthcare background, engineering background, business and some other things, I started to say, well, let's take this apart. What can we do? What things are out there that we could help our daughter support her own healthcare? You know, again, it's a generational thing. When I asked my parents who was in charge of their health care, they said dr johnson or dr dr colin or schwartz or something you know.

18:49 When I asked my generation, I said well, it's sort of hybrid. Half of us said yeah, it's the doctor, and the other half said it's me, it's on me. And so, yes, it's important for us to own our own health care, you know, and some people can manage that and grasp it and some people it isn't necessarily for them. But when I looked at our dynamic, our family dynamic, I said, okay, what can I do to actually help my daughter help herself? And then I started to unpack the way she was expressing herself and she had high levels of cognitive challenges, pain, body pain, and she also experienced what I thought was high levels of inflammation and toxicity. So I focused on toxicity, did a deep dive on what were the most efficient ways to detoxify this is 30 years ago.

19:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Was detoxify even a thing back then. I mean I feel like now all I see on Instagram is detoxify, detoxify.

19:46 - Speaker 2 Yeah, Because we have a very toxic world out there and people are looking for, you know, ways to try to maintain optimal health, Right, but again, 30 years ago we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have a lot of things that we have today.

19:58 We took a lot of arrows and bullets back then because we weren't quite the conventional way of thinking, but I felt unwavering in what I was noticing subtle energies. Back to our discussion before and the power of subtle energies. And so when I unpacked the best ways to detox, besides the invasive ones like dialysis, or the lesser invasive ones like taking either a pharmaceutical or a natural tincture or medication supplement that would chelate or purge a toxin from your skin, from your tissue, from your cell, I then discovered that there's actually wavelengths of sun energy, which is the infrared spectrum, that will mobilize all the toxins in your body. My God Again, being in the sun at the right time of day is going to bring energies. Bio-photon modulation. It's going to bring energies into the body on a cell level that creates what's called a bioresonance or a vibration. What is the right time of day?

21:05 Well, in California, right here like we're almost directly across the country, so because we're on the same latitude, at around 11, between 11 and 12. 11 am to 12 pm oh, sorry, between 1 and dusk is when the infrared spectrum is most prevalent. It creates this vibration in the body and that vibration essentially shakes loose. It's called a covalent bond, the bond between the toxin and your skin. It's probably more easily understood by people tuning in. Now. Imagine like your body has a charge to it, a magnetic charge to it, and so does the heavy metal, and they are opposite charges and so, just like a magnet, the metal will be attached or be drawn to your cell or to your skin or your tissue and it kind of hangs there right. And so you can do things to chelate.

21:55 Right now in our foods and our waters, our air are somewhat toxic and they carry heavy metals and we've already seen in certain cities that the waters have been tainted by the copper tubes and pipes and plumbing that has leached these metals into the water, which you know it's really exacerbated with heavy metals because it affects cognitive people's cognitive approaches, or no, they're just cognition, um and so, um, having something like not natural sunlight or a spectrum of sunlight that will create a vibration that's going to shake loose these toxins in the body really is an amazing um understanding. And again, because we're not communing with nature, so we're not getting sunlight. We're not getting sunlight, we're not getting that vibration. We're hanging out in our controlled environments. We don't allow our bodies to utilize systems that we have, that are so beautifully, you know, installed in our, in our.

22:55 From birth, when we lived on the land and we were communing with nature, we didn't have alarm clocks. That's a modern thing. We woke up to the sun, and so did our bodies wake up, our body systems. We woke up to the sun, and so did our bodies wake up. Our body systems were woken up by the sun. Now we wake up to an alarm clock. It has nothing to do with the sun.

23:12 - Speaker 1 No.

23:12 - Speaker 2 When we're traveling from time zone to time zone around the world or from the East Coast to the West Coast. I work actively to reset my circadian rhythm to be in tune with the time zone that I'm now living in three hours earlier here on the West Coast. That might be extreme to people that are listening today or someone like. What is a circadian rhythm? Why is that important? I think that the concept of being synchronized, wherever you live, with the natural events of sunrise and sunset sets the stage for your body systems to respond the same way.

23:55 - Speaker 1 And so then that goes back to where I interrupted you, excuse me, In the morning. You're saying to start, you would recommend baseline majority would benefit from getting introduced to IR. Well, it's not.

24:06 - Speaker 2 Red light. We're just talking about using an IR sauna.

24:09 - Speaker 1 That was what I was addressing.

24:10 - Speaker 2 So if I were to offer you an optimal time to do it, I would say do it the earliest you can in the morning or closest to when you first wake up, because that's when your body systems are going to be woken up as well to the influence of bio photon modulation, whether it's blue light, red light or full spectrum infrared, all the way out to far frequencies. The body systems are going to start to get tuned up in that direction. Now that's the optimal. The practical is the truck driver that says hey, robbie, I get up at four o'clock in the morning to drive. I'm not getting up at three to do a song. It's not practical for me.

24:52 So, joe, when can you do it? And so he would say well, I get home around six and usually I kind of sit down and read or watch the tube around seven. So I said, well, how about seven or 7.30? When do you? When do you bet down? Well, I usually bet down around nine, 10 o'clock. Yeah, that would work. How about, practically, let's do it, try doing it. Seven, seven, 30. Well, it's not optimal, it is practical, meaning that he's more likely to stay and work that into his lifestyle.

25:21 - Speaker 1 Adherence is the most important Absolutely.

25:23 - Speaker 2 Yeah, and to me you know again, I'm looking at this thing holistically. Doing it once a day at seven in the morning, seven in the evening, is better than not doing it at all. Optimally, yes, seven in the morning might be better for him and for his body, but getting it, getting a half hour in, and what that change, what that half hour of infrared sauna will do to him, for him on a long-term trajectory, is enormous, and you've been training and you know all this. If I can change, like the younger, I can get you involved in a lifestyle choice and the more you use it, so let's say that choice is just changing your trajectory by 1%. If we start employing that when you're 20 years old, what does that look like when you're 60?

26:09 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean the change could add 20, 30 years on your life, 1%, year after year after year, adds up in an amazing compounding way. So let me ask you to kind of summarize this point Across the board. Generically speaking, for most people is it more optimal to get red light therapy in the morning or in the evening, when you wake up or before you go to bed?

26:31 - Speaker 2 I would certainly lean towards getting that light energy in your body earlier and later but, um, when it comes to on body experiences like the sauna is usually like a half hour to 45 minutes one time a day.

26:46 The other, we have two different sort of roads to our technology. One is a full body experience that would be immersed, like in a sauna, and the other would be an on-body experience where we make a series of what we call healing pads that you can bring right to an area of your body that we call love, that you need a little bit extra love and attention, right. So you pull the muscle or you have a joint that's giving you some trouble, or maybe you're trying to detox your liver. You can bring the on-body energy same energy as the sauna but now we've put it into a healing pad that you can put right on a location similar to if it was a light bulb there's a floodlight that covers a full room, or a spotlight or a laser that's very specific to a point and so we can actually target our technology that way and then, you know, create those stimulants and emote really, really big changes.

27:42 - Speaker 1 Hey guys, quick break from my conversation with Robbie to tell you about one of my favorite skincare companies called DeraLab, today's sponsor, and, put simply, their products are clinically proven to deliver results. But right now, as we're getting into summertime, post-memorial day you might be finding yourself out in the sun and that's all well and good. Like you're learning from Robbie, the sun provides a lot of amazing benefits, but under the right conditions and when I'm going to be out in the sun for prolonged periods of time, and especially in those peak hours in the afternoon where we are just getting bombarded with more potentially damaging UV light, I'm reaching for the Face SPF Mineral Sunscreen from Caldera Lab. This is an incredible, no white cast, lightweight, 100% mineral face sunscreen with SPF 30, delivers broad spectrum protection against sun exposure, both UVA and UVB rays, while also hydrating the skin. I don't feel greasy, I don't feel gross If I go a few hours with this stuff still on my face and a few applications. I'm comfortable still going out in public. It's not like I just came from the beach and I got gunk all over my face. It's free from chemical filters, no silicones, no phthalates, no formaldehyde.

28:54 You all have heard me talk about Caldera Lab. For years now I've been using their entire skincare lineup. I love their face wash, their under eye cream, moisturizer anything they make make I use damn near daily, and especially now in the summer months, I'm reaching for the face spf, even more super easy to use, just apply liberally and evenly about 15 minutes before sun exposure remember those areas like your ears and neck and then reapply, at least you know, every few hours or so and then, for added hydration, you can apply their moisturizer, the base layer, before applying the SPF. Remember, spf should be your last step in your skincare routine. You want it top of mind, top of skin, to get the most skin protection benefits. And if you don't love it, you got a money back guarantee coming your way. And speaking of money, I want you to save some. You can head to calderalabcom and when you use code EVERFORWARD at checkout you got 20% coming your way.

29:47 Linked for you, as always in today's show notes under episode resources. But that's C-A-L-D-E-R-A-L-A-Bcom Code EVERFORWARD at checkout for 20% off. You got risk-free for 60 days coming your way, no-transcript. What would you describe as some of the again blanket statement, most typical, I'll say, immediate benefits for most people, whether that's on body or, you know, full body experience with red light compared to or plus long term benefits of red light therapy approach to our device development.

30:28 - Speaker 2 It's more um, our initial business model was going to the clinician or the hospital or the doctor, the health care provider, and so we've, we've most of our devices are considered class two medical devices with the fda, so we've gone through impressive.

30:45 All right well a lot of our competitors don't do that. They they don't need to do that, but because we want to recruit the doctor and the doctor's practice. So, for instance, chase, if you're a medical health practitioner and you see 10,000 patients a year and we have an opportunity to talk and I have an opportunity to share with you the benefits of using infrared, pairing it up to, in a sense, dial up or improve the efficacy of the protocols you normally do, why not? Right? We're now recruiting again. We're back to integrated functional medicine. Bring in natural healing from using subtle energies and incorporating more of nature in your practice, along with the things that you learned in medical school or that you already know work. But again, dialing it up a little bit, because when you can prime your body with primal healing elements good water, good food, good air, good sunlight now you already got yourself set up to receive whatever other kinds of protocols that might be specific to what you might need.

31:53 - Speaker 1 So let me bring back to the question then. Um, generically speaking again, what are the most typical immediate health benefits someone could expect to have from red light therapy? And then, what are some of the more common long-term benefits from red light therapy? Right, right, so being fda cleared.

32:10 - Speaker 2 They have specifically pigeonholed us to be able to talk about sort of legally sure, the benefits being, um, uh, improving circulation. So why is that important? Because your blood carries all of your dna and rna, which is your, your genetic material for repair and rebuilding it. It also carries nutrition, whether you take a medication, eat really well or supplementation, and it carries oxygen. So if I can do anything to improve your circulation now, we're talking about a 10 to 15, maybe 20% improvement in overall optimal health, so we're cleared to do that and that's an immediate, I mean, you get that right away and we say immediate, is it?

32:51 - Speaker 1 I sit down in front of a red light for 60 seconds. Is there like a minimum effective dose here?

32:56 - Speaker 2 Yes, and your body will respond immediately. I'm talking about as soon as you get the light in you. But in order for you to actually kind of feel a difference the average adult-sized person you need about eight minutes of bio-photon modulation exposure to these frequencies Certain ones become a little more active than others and the distance that you are between your body, physically, and the light source- so the closer you are to the light source, it's like the closer you are to the light source, it's like being the closer you are to the sun the more intense that frequency will be, the higher the penetration through your skin and layers of fat and things underneath.

33:43 - Speaker 1 We could then, in theory, have more benefit at or above eight minutes by just being further away or closer away to the same device. Yeah, no need to change the light, change the device. It's just proximity. Yeah, wow, so okay Then what? Okay, other same device?

33:53 - Speaker 2 yeah, no need to change the light change the device it's just proximity, yeah, wow, so okay, then what uh? Okay, other things? Yeah, so we're improving circulation, so we're improving your again. Remember your circulation has nutrition in it, so now we're talking about nourishing your tissues and your cells.

34:06 - Speaker 1 More exposure, more blood flow, reducing recovery time for all my people training out there.

34:12 - Speaker 2 Pain relief is another thing that we are cleared by FDA to talk about. So more than a third of Americans report that they have what's called breakthrough pain. That's 100 million people have some kind of pain, and breakthrough pain is defined by if it was a stereo and your dial top top volume was 10, it would be somewhere on eight or nine. So that means that you're in so much pain that you can't sit comfortably. You, the pain is so loud in the room that you actually can't function. That's a third of americans. All right, so we are cleared and a natural way to reduce pain.

34:51 - Speaker 1 Wow, that's a big wow. That is. That's incredible. I also feel another big one is just anybody, if you're listening. Once you hit over 30 and if you still live an active lifestyle, it's so amazing. You just wake up one day and for no reason, your elbow hurts, your calf hurts I'm just talking about me recently or like an old injury decides to just randomly flare up for no particular reason. But I can tell you these little nuances and you know I choose to live an active life, but these little nuances and pain I'm not willing to accept. And integrating red light therapy for treating these has really helped in just daily living and keeping me.

35:25 It's a huge sense of motivation as well, because when you're in pain, you don't want to keep going back to the source that caused it. You don't want to go to the yoga mat, you don't want to go to the barbell, you don't want to sometimes even get off the couch, but just being able to get back to your baseline, you don't lose that motivation. And so light therapy photobiomodulation has really done that for me in a big, big, big way.

35:44 - Speaker 2 You know you bring up a point that I try to stress a lot, lot in clinic and when I'm coaching any of our clients and customers and especially people that have chronic challenges with pain, and so it's very most first of all. Most of those people will do anything and try any new technology to try to get a little bit more relief than the stuff that they did before. But what we've noticed in clinic and in all of our research that you can treat the pain at the time of the acute injury and then when so there's a definition of acute, is that you know you banged your elbow, you have pain.

36:20 - Speaker 1 Immediate onset.

36:20 - Speaker 2 Yeah, but then if that pain doesn't go away or that injury doesn't go away because there's been a structural change in your body and it hangs long enough, then you move to what's considered or defined as a chronic challenge. So that's usually around a year and sometime. Between that first acute time of injury and that year your brain is trying to evaluate whether it can fix you at all and then, if it doesn't figures out it can't, all it does is it redefines the new chase with now that new injury or that inability to move that joint, the same way that you could do it before.

36:54 - Speaker 1 And then begins the slippery slope of compensation, development of new problems, yeah oh man.

37:01 - Speaker 2 Okay, so let's kind of reorient that whole thing. What we recommend, our devices will take you out of pain within eight minutes. And our devices will take you out of pain within eight minutes. And we have often and I mean now, you know, years ago there was a very big movement about pharmaceutical pain reliefs, the Code 3 medications for that. And then today's world, and over the last few years, the pharmaceutical industry has done a great job in trying to kind of curb the disp, um, the dispensing of a lot of these code three drugs, and so the people that are in pain, that used to get addicted and somewhat dependent on those medications to keep them normal, are now searching for other things to help them.

37:45 So who, what? Who to think, who to thunk that it could be something as simple as an infrared heating pad that could offer that kind of result? So when you have a chronic challenge and then you, let's say you have a back, lower back challenge, right, so you're living with it, and then you manage to kind of figure out a way that you can live with it, adjust your lifestyle, do all that stuff, then every so often you injure yourself. Now you have an acute injury that's compounding your chronic challenge that you've had. Well, certainly you can use the healing pad to address that acute injury, whether it's the first time injury or re-injuring a chronic challenge, right Okay. So it's marvelous to do that, but the real magic in our technology is to use it when you don't need it. Why?

38:34 - Speaker 1 is that?

38:35 - Speaker 2 Because when you have a chronic challenge, let's say a back injury, every time you lift, every time you move, every time you take a step, you're actually micro-tearing or micro-injuring that injury. Okay, and so how about micro healing that injury?

38:54 - Speaker 1 Imagine that.

38:55 - Speaker 2 What a concept All right. Well, that's the point. If you use it when you don't need it, then you're less likely to have an extenuated episode when you do step off the curb the wrong way or lift a bag or, you know, getting onto the, onto a plane or something like that.

39:12 - Speaker 1 That's where I think most people probably struggle is latching on to modalities or even tools, devices such as red light therapy, ir, ir sauna is I'm fine, so why would I spend my money, my time to invest or do something that I don't think I really need right now? What would you say to them?

39:30 - Speaker 2 100%. I think that it's counterintuitive and I think that we're finding and actually I have to commend you because it's podcasts like yours, it's the information flow and having it's not just me but other experts that I've had an opportunity to see that you seem to bring a lot of great talent into your group. I think that that is the medium to actually bridge the gap in people's understanding about how important it is to be proactive in your health care. So you have two choices, again multigenerational. My parents were happy, like I live in Florida. California's got to it's a retirement area of the country, right, and so you know, like from New York moving to Florida in my generation, I always thought you went there basically to retire and pass on, right, we used to call it the happy elephant hunting ground, you know, right Now, then I moved, I moved down to Florida with my young family and I discovered like, oh my God, there's actually young people live here.

40:37 Okay, um, so point being is like, again, I might be a little bit different, but I think that, um, I've had been very fortunate in my life because a lot of my work brings me outside the country, and so I've been spent a lot of time in the asian asian block, in development and europe, and so, when I study their cultures, they actually practice health care incrementally. Uh, in asia, in china, they eat foods. Uh, once a quarter they change their menu. Their foods are tonics, and so during the winter they're eating a food menu that actually is supporting their liver and their, their kidneys and so forth.

41:12 - Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

41:13 - Speaker 2 Because they're in hibernation during winter, just like a bear, but we are out wearing a coat, but our bodies are still in hibernation and so they're eating a food source that's actually supporting the health of their organs. So when we come out of winter, they're strong and healthy and vibrant. During that unique time period Exactly, wow, wow, and they wake up and they do. Yeah, it's amazing. They wake up and they do movement, um qigong and a lot of things that you see people just do, these very subtle movements. All that is all part of and you probably know that because you're in this industry that you know couch potatoes. Now it's like the new cigarette, right?

41:49 - Speaker 1 so worse, yeah, or worse, and so staying um active to your point earlier is super important and becomes way more important as you start to age in terms of keeping your body in flow and keeping things going I mean you have presented, and I know I personally know and I'll, I'll, I'm gonna do a good amount of research here and I have some great studies and friends and peers in the space that have presented a lot of really clear evidence to what we're talking about, especially with red light therapy and IR therapy. I'll link all that in the show notes for you guys. But one thing that comes to mind for me is when I think about when I'm doing red light therapy, when I'm doing really anything for what I perceive to be benefits my wellness. More often than not it does this for me, it forces me, allows me, rather, to carve out time for myself.

42:39 When I'm sitting there using my red light therapy device, I can't really move around a whole lot. It's great I can do a lot, or even the one, the standup one. I could do some other things, but allows me just to finally make time for myself to meditate, to think, to do nothing, to allow stress and cortisol to lower, to allow creativity and white space to happen, to kind of gather my thoughts, to think about the day. And so I haven't seen or found a study directly to this, but I do think there's immense power and healing power and would love to get your opinion and when we choose to do things for our health, whether we think it has an immediate effect or not like I don't have an injury, so I don't need this right now, but who's to say? By just finally giving yourself the time to sit and to be still and to do nothing and to to to take a breather, that, arguably, is good for your health.

43:33 - Speaker 2 First of them, behind you, a million percent on this one. Okay, I'd like to introduce a new author that's just publishing a book that's coming out this month.

43:46 - Speaker 1 I believe the end of the month.

43:47 - Speaker 2 Her name is Elaine Glass and she wrote a book that's called Get Quiet, and it's just to your point and she, her metaphor, is using a labyrinth, walking through a labyrinth and how that labyrinth allows you to get close to your inner self and your inner thoughts and your and and what you just said. I approached the same discussion about 12 years ago when I started to think, well, hey, I have Chase. I introduced the idea of my infrared sauna to Chase and he says, wow, this is kind of cool, I can do it every morning, I can work into my lifestyle, it's a half hour, it doesn't take up too much time, and the research and the benefits of what you can do to create an optimal health experience using infrared sauna once a day for 30 minutes is incredible.

44:40 - Speaker 1 I mean, you can lower the most of the things that cause death by 80 if you just did that one thing oh yeah, all the data I've seen when it comes to at this point, we have a lot of data coming out now about infrared sauna, but we definitely have way more on traditional sauna is really the reduction in all cause mortality reduction, inflammation, inflammation, chronic illness, disease enhancing and improving mitochondrial health I mean cellular energy goes through the roof. Recovery repair goes through the roof. Chronic aging recovery repair goes through the roof.

45:13 - Speaker 2 Um, chronic aging or, excuse me, chronic illness is just, you know, kind of gone Right, um, and so I suppose if we could do something, any one thing, that could make that much change, um, you really want to hold onto it, especially in today's world and in in our format, we bring that into the luxury of your own home, so you don't even have to go out for it. You can kind of work that into your lifestyle too. But then I thought, chase, I have chase in that sauna for half hour. What other modalities, what other interventions can I introduce into that experience that are really dialed up even more? And so then it's kind of another part of my brain, left and right brain activity.

45:50 I went into thinking about what other enhancements I could bring into that sauna experience. So we started to develop devices like. The first one was aromatherapy. So I created a diffuser that you can use essential oils, and essential oils are basically most medications are made from either plant or or flower extractions, right or organically. They look the same under a microscope, but they're synthetic, you know anyway. So if you take the original essential oil, like, let's say, lavender or basil or frankincense, you can put those oils in this diffuser, put that in the sauna and now, while you're sweating. You're now taking poisons out, but your skin becomes an accentuated breathing organ to bring things back into your bloodstream.

46:38 - Speaker 1 It's like the concept from James Clear. You know habit stacking. It's turned into we're healing stacking Right.

46:43 - Speaker 2 So that's it. So I started to create devices that stack, and a stack would just be bringing another kind of modality or intervention that would work synergistically, meaning it would enhance the just the core sauna experience. So we brought in aromatherapy. The next thing I introduced was an ozone device, so now I can improve blood oxygenation. The probably one of the biggest reasons why we age is our blood's ability to hold on to oxygen starts to diminish over time, and that's because, um, after the in the mid-20s, mid to late 20s, our bodies start to shift a little bit and we start making less nitric oxide, which is one of the three transient gases the body makes, and so so nitric oxide principally works on basal dilation, so it improves blood flow and it also triggers your blood to grab more oxygen when you make it available, and so it turns out that near infrared and red light will produce nitric oxide.

47:47 - Speaker 1 For the body.

47:48 - Speaker 2 Really. So that's another thing. When you get in our sauna, you get that exposure to the light that's going to actually produce nitric oxide, oh wow. And so now I already know that I'm producing that in your body. Let's bring ozone, which is more oxygen, into that tent, into that sauna. That allows your body, through your skin, to absorb that right directly into your bloodstream. Your blood is waiting to receive it, because the nitric oxide is already um priming the pump.

48:14 So to speak, we're basically enhancing the bioavailability physiologically totally, and that's what I do I play with the body systems because I understand physiology, and then I look to combine nature, um and devices to bring all these events together so we introduced aromatherapy, oxygen therapy, guided meditation, which was your point earlier, and so in 30 minutes and I practice this I get up very early, without an alarm clock, usually 4, 35 in the morning, and I trickle over to the sauna, have a first, I have a drink of just um good filtered structured water, um, and then I and I also take a binder and that's sort of also important in terms of protocol a binder. Binder, yeah, binders are defined by um. Well, by definition, it binds something. So what I discovered was and this is actually back to treating my daughter we figured out a great way to mobilize toxins, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're coming out of your body right.

49:18 And so people with chronic ailments they have compromised elimination systems, so if they're really sick, they don't move around a lot, so their lymphatic system is compromised, so they don't have that. And if they don't move around a lot because they're sick, oftentimes they don't eliminate, they don't pee and they don't poop regularly, so their bodies don't really have the proper ways. Imagine it being your sewerage system, so imagine that you don't have that way to evacuate. So then I realized that it wasn't just enough to be able to create a device that will actually mobilize toxins, as all of our devices will do. But we need to create the combination of not just the infrared but combine that with a binder so that now, when we mobilize the toxin, the sponge, that binder is like a bio sponge it gobbles it up.

50:06 - Speaker 1 And it can be extracted, eliminated? Yeah, and it can be extracted, eliminated, passed out.

50:09 - Speaker 2 It makes it easier for your liver and your kidney and your pancreas, large and small intestine, to actually grab those poisons and eliminate them, get them out.

50:17 - Speaker 1 A couple of questions here come to mind Now. I know what you do, is what you do for you and I would recommend to anybody build your own protocol right, also be a study of one. But again, if you could collectively, just say generically, this would be a recommended protocol for someone to step into that sauna experience. What are some great kind of things to have? Is it the hydration, is it electrolytes, is it waters? What are these things that you think would collectively serve the most amount of people to really enhance that sauna experience?

50:46 - Speaker 2 Okay, so great question. And the first thing is we set everybody up with an intermittent goal of 30 minutes and the temperature is somewhat important, and usually it's around 130, 25 to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, and so our saunas will go up to 170. And so we do have weekend warriors that get them in. They go. I got to get it and I got to dial it all the way up.

51:08 But if you're toxic, and one of the main things that the sauna will do is detoxify you, then you're going to have, or potentially could have, what is called a detox response. And if you're sick, like with Lyme disease and Lyme is a little organism that dies off, that's a toxin In its life cycle, it's pooping, that's a toxin. And so most of the Lyme patients are symptomatic because they're really toxic. Yes, they have a disease, they have an imbalance in their biome, their internal terrain, because they have more maybe bugs running around that shouldn't be running around. We can clear that up. But the main way to challenge and we do this with Lyme patients, we can get them asymptomatic in six to eight weeks without medications just by using sauna and binder protocols, lowering their toxic load in their body, which lowers inflammation, and you know the relationship between inflammation and toxicity, so higher. Lowering toxicity lowers inflammation, lower symptoms symptoms. It's not addressing the root cause, but we are helping them get back their lives.

52:17 - Speaker 1 So then, what is in this kind of common binder protocol?

52:19 - Speaker 2 so a binder would be um activated charcoal or carbon or bentonite clay. There are certain foods like um, superfoods, like um blue green algae, chlorella, spirulina, so they not only give you great minerals and so forth, but they also will be a binder, okay. Okay, and there's also a silica derivative called zeolite, which silica is like sand. It's one of the most common elements on the earth, and so zeolites have a magnetic charge, so we use a zeolite binder when we want to pull heavy metals out, and would this be a something we're rubbing our skin?

52:58 - Speaker 1 Is it a capsule? It's a little capsule.

53:00 - Speaker 2 Okay it, you know it looks just like charcoal. Charcoal or carbon and um, take that binder. So again back to what would work for everybody. We have a goal of 30 minutes, at one 30. But if you present as being very frail, whether you're a young child or whether you're an older person, and you just got a health challenge, then we would sort of dial back and say, well, maybe your body temperature is around 97 or 98 degrees, so maybe we'll start you off at 105 or 110. And rather than 30 minutes, we'll start you off at maybe 10 minutes. Just see how your body responds a little micro adversities yeah.

53:36 And then if let's say, the best analogy would be if I was your swimming coach and you were deathly afraid of drowning, so I wouldn't throw you into the deep end and say I'm going to starbucks and grab me a coffee, you know, hoping that that you'd survive. I'd start you off in the shallow end. If you're really symptomatic, I might just put your toe in the water, get rid of the limiting belief and the fear that you're going to drown, address the body adjustment and the temperature and then slowly walk you into the deep end. And that's what we do with all of our customers, categorically, whether they're really sick or really healthy. We set a goal, but what determines the time it takes you to get to that goal is just the way your body is adjusting, and so we fine-tune that adjustment along the way, using detox responses as a guide. So what would a detox response be?

54:27 - Speaker 1 Yeah, what would that look like?

54:28 - Speaker 2 A lightheadedness, dizziness, nausea, maybe histamine responses like itchy skin or a rash. These are all signs that your body is getting rid of poisons.

54:39 - Speaker 1 And that would be a good sign for somebody to kind of cut the cord right there, like, once you have this response, this toxic response, like okay, I'm done, I'm out. That's enough for today.

54:48 - Speaker 2 Pretty much, yeah, done I'm out. That's enough for today. Pretty much, yeah, if you get to get that. Or let's say, your goal is 30 minutes, but 20 minutes in you not start. You just start to not feel. Well, why would you your body's? Already telling you that something's not right.

55:01 - Speaker 1 Well, couldn't that just be. I didn't drink enough water, I don't have enough electrolytes in me. I feel like some of these things you're talking about I've experienced in sauna and personally I just reflect and go yeah, I definitely haven't had enough water, I'm not consuming enough water, electrolytes during or something, and I feel like once I do, I'm good. Or am I misunderstanding a toxic? You know kind of no, you're totally getting it.

55:22 - Speaker 2 It's totally about that.

55:23 That's just another variable. The best analogy is this have you ever had a fish tank in your life? Yes, okay. And so imagine having two fish tanks next to one another One's a 100-gallon tank with a goldfish in it, the other one's a 10-gallon tank with a goldfish in it and then you drop one drop of what's called ick, which is a bacteria that causes fin rot in both tanks. Which fish is going to experience a symptom first, the 10-gallon tank or the 100-gallon tank? I would guess the 10 gallon tank Exactly. And so when you're dehydrated, as most of us are out there, you're going to experience a detox symptom or sign much sooner than if you're hydrated.

55:59 I see so hydration is key, and so we ask you to drink 8 to 10 ounces an adult 8 to 10 ounces of water before sauna.

56:08 I generally will take one to two tabs of binder about that same time, within an hour or so of doing that first sauna treatment. Now I know that I'm priming my body to at least have enough hydration to sweat out some of the toxins that I am burning up. So even if you drink a lot of water and we are a nation that drinks a lot of water but most of the water we're drinking is not what's called bioavailable, it's not getting into into our cells and there's actually what's called phase angle, which is an instrument that I can measure your cellular hydration. So that's a huge key, for cell methylation or cell function has a lot to do with hydration, not just drinking water, but drinking bioavailable water. So in nature, water comes down from a mountain and it trickles around stone, so it's gathering, let's say, earth elements. It's not trickling, it's gathering energy and it's also being shined upon by sunlight. That's restructuring that water. There we go.

57:04 Okay, so now we've got the way nature intended water to be. How does that compare to the water municipal water that you're taking from a PVC pipe?

57:14 that's traveling Pretty drastic, I would imagine, Pretty drastic difference Okay so we're drinking water, we're drinking out of a bottle and it has nothing to do with the energetics that might be the water that we get in nature.

57:25 And so we're trying and we have a water system that we developed to address that. But back to your initial quest, which is what's good for everyone. That initial goal of 30 minutes at 125 or 130 degrees. We temper that or shade that, based on the way you're presenting, and then we just keep dialing up to get closer to that goal. And it could take like for a Lyme patient it could take them six to eight weeks to get to that goal of 130 for 30 minutes, but for an active person like yourself it might take a week or two to transition. It's important to drink that water beforehand and take the binder. And then we also ask that you drink eight to 10 ounces of water after, because we are purposely stirring up the pond, stirring up the pond, and so, if I know I'm already raising your, your toxic load or burden in your blood by by mobilizing that toxin, why not dilute it back down with that second glass of water so you don't have a detox response?

58:23 - Speaker 1 Now, generically speaking, would you say, or generally speaking, excuse me, is the more time more beneficial for most people or higher temperature more beneficial for most people? Higher temperature more beneficial for?

58:32 - Speaker 2 most people. Really great question and I'm not sure about how to answer you on that one.

58:37 - Speaker 1 I'm sure it's pretty nuanced, or it depends right.

58:40 - Speaker 2 Well, for someone that's going for heavy metals, the protocols and or even Lyme disease, we're really looking to get to the higher temperatures, like 160 to 165, and we want something like 45 to 50 minutes, maybe even longer. Everybody's BMI or their body makeup is a little different and part of the reason why we want to raise your core temperature is because around 101 to 101.5 degrees core temperature that's a fever of 101, like a low-grade fever there's a natural die-off of anaerobes in the body, so microorganisms meaning Lyme disease, parasites, mold, all that they can't thrive above 100 and 101 and a half degrees, which makes sense when we're sick, when we have a fever.

59:27 - Speaker 1 That's what's happening.

59:28 - Speaker 2 That's what exactly it's cooking out all the bad juju yeah, and what do you think we're doing in that portable sauna? We are raising your core and creating a false fever. So there's a natural die-off of all these microorganisms, some that live in abundance in the body, like, let's say, it's lime, and so we can get that die-off. It also interesting fact that your t57 cells, your immune system, is 800 times more active at the same temperature. How many times more? 800, wow.

59:58 So that means that the body is deploying more of the natural killer cells yeah, and so the, the invader, the lime, the Lyme, the parasite, the virus, the bacteria, their army is being beaten down by the body temperature and, at the same time, our warriors, our attack cells, are able to pounce on the weakened community.

01:00:25 - Speaker 1 This makes total sense what I was talking about earlier asking you about who stands to benefit most, and I don't have an injury. I don't have a reason asking you about you know who stands to benefit most and I don't have an injury. I don't have a reason, if you understand what Robbie just said. Right there, on a consistent basis, we are increasing our body's offense and ability. You'd be remiss to go. Oh well, you know I'm not sick. Well, we're exposed to things every damn day. Exposure does not always automatically yield injury or illness. You know it takes things a little while. So if we can enhance our body's ability to daily kick these things out of here, well, there's your proof.

01:01:03 - Speaker 2 Healthy habits. Right, absolutely. So we talked about the 1% over long periods of time. Imagine if all you did was just doing for red sauna. I mean I'm, I'm being generous, I mean I'd love to have you do it five or six times a week, but if all you did it was three times, even the stats on three times a week is incredible the difference. So here is this technology. It's really affordable. Um, we can have it in our own home and we can really shift the way that we feel and the trajectory of our optimal health.

01:01:35 - Speaker 1 I have one more question before I ask my final, and I feel like I'm just getting ramped up now, getting excited. What have you come across in your personal research or with the devices you all provide in terms of evidence to support benefiting mental health, if any, in terms of red light therapy or even sauna? Let's go red light therapy.

01:01:56 - Speaker 2 Well, I guess I want to start with. In today's modern world, and especially post-pandemic and things our bodies have, most people are now stuck in a sympathetic, dominant mode. They're in fight and flight, they're anxious most of the time, and then that's not talking about stimulants, coffees, teas and other things that will dial that up even more. Unfortunately, what happens is that the autonomic nervous system, your central nervous system, it's sort of like a muscle, and there is a technology that we have actually developed internally, or we tweaked our own version of what's called heart rate variability that we can measure this the heart's ability, brain's ability to adjust to stress.

01:02:43 So we all know that it's innate for us to respond like a natural animal would if it's cornered in the room, in the back of the room, to get ready to fight, to get ready to defend themselves for self-preservation. So how quickly can your body adapt from that mode to being calm and what kinds of things can you do to help yourself make that shift? Well, the world, the amount of intense exposure to visual, audio and even smell stimuli, it's enormous the amount of influences we're getting in those days. So it's not allowing us to get quiet. That was to Elaine's point in her book. And so what can we do? We can practice simple breath work.

01:03:32 We, you know, some guided meditation and many of us that grow up in maybe, um, judea Catholic kind of backgrounds understand about prayer. And I'm not talking about religion now, I'm just talking about spirituality and the ability. And I'm, you know, kind of a Joe Dispenza type guy. That you know, I believe that our subconscious rules our consciousness. So, you know, I make a point of not going to bed angry at my wife every night and any night. Actually, smart man, what Smart man?

01:04:01 Well, it's worked for me, but I'm inspired by her every day, and so I actually kind of practice certain little things, subtle things, that I think make a big difference. And so before I go to bed, I have a certain little ritual where I just think about all the things that I'm grateful for and the things I've accomplished, and then when I go to bed that night or it could be that I'm thinking about some project that I'm working on, that I'm asking my guidance, as well in my subconscious, to help me solve a problem. And then when I wake up in the morning and part of my ritual in my sauna at 435 in the morning is to set my intentions for the day and ask for forgiveness, which is why usually my sauna is 45 minutes to an hour, because I have a lot to be forgiven for is 45 minutes to an hour, because I have a lot to be forgiven for.

01:04:55 But the point is that you can instill certain things to actually shift your emotions, and so our HRV has proven scientifically that if you're in sauna for that 20 to 30 minutes, it's going to shift your autonomic nervous system from that fight and flight to a calm state. And so I am again. Another little subtle thing, but it's big, because I am training my brain to be flexible, just like a muscle, to be able to shift from being anxious to being calm.

01:05:26 - Speaker 1 That's resilience, yes, physical and mental.

01:05:29 - Speaker 2 And I think that's a challenge we have now, because people don't practice exercising that side of their personalities. And so how does that roll up? I mean, when you're always tense, then it that emotion starts to get embedded in your DNA and your tissues and your consciousness Um, and then I think that um impacts your whole emotional thing.

01:05:51 - Speaker 1 Wholeheartedly agree. But to kind of go back to the original question, what I was kind of imagining there was, let me rephrase Sometimes in certain winter months, in some locations, people will get like a light therapy device that will help their bodies, you know, create more vitamin D because they're not getting it. Naturally. Vitamin D when we don't have it, mood definitely drops. Seasonal affective disorder, sad we get depressed. Are we seeing anything similar with people with diagnosed or just my term here the funk? When I use my red light therapy device, can I expect a boost like that?

01:06:26 - Speaker 2 Is it?

01:06:26 - Speaker 1 vitamin D, mood, mental health.

01:06:28 - Speaker 2 Well, vitamin D is more of the UV frequencies.

01:06:30 - Speaker 1 Right, yes, so I'm there with.

01:06:33 - Speaker 2 I understand where you're going, though, but generally light energy will help with mitochondria energy. So that's your cell energy thing. So oftentimes, like the winter months, certainly you're not as active and you have light deprivation, and that's what you were just addressing but independent of that movement you were just addressing.

01:06:56 But independent of that movement being getting lack of lacking sunlight, not just the uv spectrum, doesn't really allow to support that structure of water inside your body which is cell communication, and it doesn't. The near frequencies and red light support mitochondria, which is your energy for your cell. So it's the way the body interprets sun energy into cell energy. So lack of that, those wavelengths, is going to keep you sluggish, which is going to feed into depression.

01:07:21 - Speaker 1 It's a negative feedback.

01:07:22 - Speaker 2 Absolutely, yeah, yeah and so look how easy it is to reverse that trend. I mean, just get out and get some sunshine, we all feel better. In fact, I was mentioning that on the uber on the way over here to the driver I said look how happy everybody is the neighborhood, as I was in your neighborhood.

01:07:36 - Speaker 1 Today is a day. It's our first day. I think we hit over 80 in a year.

01:07:40 - Speaker 2 Everybody's been so friendly and they're happy and they're smiling and like. So what's wrong with that Right?

01:07:47 - Speaker 1 There's nothing wrong with that. Well, robbie, I do have to get you out of here. I know you have dinner waiting and, jen, I apologize for holding your guy hostage a little bit here. But to bring it home to the theme of the show, I bring people on here like yourself to help us understand and highlight unique areas of of life, of wellness, of physical and mental resiliency, especially to help us move forward, ever forward. Those two words, what do they mean to you?

01:08:13 - Speaker 2 Okay, I think I'll just relate it to myself. Okay, like to me, I'm just looking to save one life a day. I know that the things that we're doing is impacting thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of people in a day. To me, my validation I have to understand that it's right for me and my relationship with my higher power. And then after that I need to be validated by my core group of medical providers that I trust and trust me. And then the real test is you or the public, and so I can have a head and attention in everything I make. But I'm not driven by ego.

01:08:58 We in our company, we're sort of philanthropic in many ways and we believe in people over profit. So, yes, we make a margin, but a lot of it goes into more research and developing more devices to help people help themselves. And so this is our time, right now. Right, and the things that we're doing we feel resonate with the time and place that we are in right now. So Ever Forward to me is more like thinking about making those steps and direction towards creating healthy habits. Those steps and direction towards creating healthy habits, incremental things, small things that can just move the the bar like just one. Sometimes it's just a centimeter, and sometimes it's a, it's a meter and sometimes it's a mile sometimes that centimeter, the way that it feels to us, feels like a mile right, doesn't yeah, yeah we didn't believe that even just that incremental movement, that incremental advancement was even possible.

01:09:54 But yet we did it, yeah, and there's tipping points. There are times where I look around and I just say, hey, I'm just, I am living in an aha moment right now, embrace it. So for me, ever forward is that is just being in, in the flow and being in momentum and really being in gratitude and understanding that, whether it's just a centimeter or if it's a mile, you really have an impact. And I believe that's my vision and I believe I'm me and my wife were just vessels bringing forward the things that I believe is going to make a big change whether it's a centimeter or a mile.

01:10:32 - Speaker 1 maybe sprinkle some red light or some infrared along the way and you'll enhance however long that journey is for you. Well, robbie, thank you again for your time, your expertise. I'm going to have all the information at Therasage down in the show notes and video description box for people. Thank you, sir, appreciate you.

01:10:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, this was great and I really appreciate meeting you and love talking to your community. This is really fun.

01:10:53 - Speaker 1 Welcome back anytime, anytime. Thank you For more information on everything you just heard. Make sure to check this episode, show notes or head to everforwardradio.com