EFR 765: Thriving With Anxiety - 9 Tools to Make your Anxiety Work for You with Dr. David Rosmarin

0:08:59 - Speaker 1 Why is this so top of mind for you? Why do you care so much about anxiety? Personally, yes, you personally, yeah. Why do you care about it? Why do you care about it so much? So you're helping the public better understand it and navigate?

0:09:11 - Speaker 3 it. There's really two things. You know one I definitely have a good deal of anxiety myself.

0:09:15 - Speaker 1 And, like I'm already, master of anxiety, so let me just put it out there.

0:09:19 - Speaker 3 Something like that. I don't know quite if I'm a master of anxiety, but you know, I realize at a certain point that the anxiety experience is not necessarily bad.

It has such a bad rap and we are trying to get rid of it. I certainly was, and at one point in my life, and many points in my life, and that made things worse. And when my patients do the same, it's just not the right approach. We need to understand that anxiety, as well as fear, is just it's part of the human landscape, of our emotions. We're going to have this sometimes, and that one message is, I think, missing from our discussions about this topic today.

0:09:55 - Speaker 1 All right, so part of the human condition, would you agree? Anxiety is part of the human experience.

0:10:01 - Speaker 3 Well, let me ask you have you ever met someone who isn't anxious at all?

0:10:06 - Speaker 1 Honestly, I have to like halfway raise my hand.

0:10:09 - Speaker 3 Really.

0:10:10 - Speaker 1 My wife and I get into this all the time because she's just, she's so dumbfounded, she's an anxious person. I love you, baby. She would say the same thing if she was here I I definitely have certain situations to where I feel which I want to get into this about nervousness, excitement versus anxiety. But I I don't really. I can't really relate when people talk about this is what anxiety feels like to me. This is when how and why I feel it shows up. I personally can't really relate.

0:10:38 - Speaker 3 OK. Was that always the case throughout your entire life? Or have there been times, maybe transition times, in your career, in relationships? I don't know.

0:10:49 - Speaker 1 Honestly, I'm God's honest truth. I'm struggling, ok, I, and maybe this is where you can psychoanalyze me, I don't know. But you know, it's funny that you bring up transition. I've had a lot of transitions in my life and I think that's such a great point. I think a lot of people transitioning in jobs, relationships, careers, identity are probably, would you agree, the areas where people have the most anxiety.

0:11:13 - Speaker 3 Definitely, your anxiety is going to be more likely to show it during those times. Ok why ask you about that, yeah?

0:11:17 - Speaker 1 And so I mean I feel like I've gone. I've transitioned from at a very young age, age 17, to go from high school student to soldier Sure, I did that active duty for six years, transitioned out to become a civilian again, to go to higher education, to then to go get a nine to five job, to leave that to go into entrepreneurship, to change all that to be what we're doing here today. I mean, I've had so many different versions of Chase.

0:11:41 - Speaker 3 There's another thing you've gone through. As a soldier, you went through adversity. Right and OK that's probably why you're not that anxious.

0:11:50 - Speaker 1 I. I have been unpacking a lot not to make the show all about me all of a sudden, but this is a bill I won't try.

I actually I've been unpacking a lot Of my military career, yeah, now that I'm on the other side of a lot of traumatic events and work through a lot of mental health for lack of a better term issues that were top of mind for me were more of that mental and emotional blockage, and I'm now realizing how much I actually went through in my military career. Regardless of what actually happened in my career, just like literally the day to day, everything that I saw, everything that I witnessed everywhere I went in the world, the people that I saw, the training that I went through, I really do think that, oh, like that's probably why I was kind of deconditioned from anxiety, I think.

0:12:38 - Speaker 3 I would agree. In fact, I'll tell you something that's just, it's gonna knock your socks off. Before the pandemic started, I was really nervous, like as soon as things started going, because I had all these patients that are in my care and I thought what's gonna be with the patients with high anxiety that are already struggling and now we have a pandemic like this is gonna. This is a potential suicide risk. I have 500 patients at my offices in New York and Boston and all over the place like how am I gonna manage this? The patients who had anxiety before the pandemic were actually fine. Why they were fine in March 2020. Explain and we're putting a paper on this.

0:13:12 - Speaker 1 It's that crazy. Oh, wow, wow.

0:13:14 - Speaker 3 And the reason is because they already went through the fire and they had been through it, they developed the resilience and they knew what to do and they weren't judging themselves. They're like no, this is just life, like I'm not gonna get bent out of shape if I start to feel unmoored. And that's really what turns anxiety into a problem is when we start to judge ourselves and we're like something's wrong with me, as opposed to like no, this is called Wednesday afternoon, right, right?

0:13:41 - Speaker 1 When I see this time block I know I can prepare. Yeah, actually that does make a lot of sense and I do receive that. It is helping me kind of define or just better understand, because I just assumed and look, I'm not alone, there are a lot of first responders, a lot of other military people. I think if you're listening, this might relate to you very, very intimately. We just go through that, we go through that and we think, oh, it's just what I did, it's what the job demanded, it's what my team demanded, it's what whatever demanded of me, the situation demanded and I had to do it. And that means sometimes getting shot at, that means sometimes going through a gas chamber, that means jumping out of perfectly good helicopters and airplanes. And so I just attributed oh, that was my job.

That's just what I did. It's what I had to do and I had no other choice, because if I didn't, there were severe repercussions, quite literally the fear of getting kicked out of the military. I didn't want that. I loved what I did. The fear of your life the fear of injured lives of those around you.

I'm now reflecting, going back and going to like there's a big reason why I don't get anxious or I don't have as much fear around these common scenarios that a lot of other people do, because I'm like you know what, no one's shooting at me, I don't have to put on a gas mask, I don't have to make sure everything's hooked up for jumping out of an airplane, all these other things. And not to downplay it, look, life is hard. We all go through severe things every day, but for me, I'm just so conditioned I've been out for years now to go, yeah, but I didn't die.

0:15:15 - Speaker 3 So I'm glad you are able to take it and strive because of what you went through. It's amazing In middle income countries there's half the amount of anxiety that we have in the United States of America.

0:15:23 - Speaker 1 In middle income countries In middle income countries.

0:15:25 - Speaker 3 In low income countries it's half the amount of anxiety in middle income countries.

0:15:28 - Speaker 1 So is it true what they said more money, more problems.

0:15:31 - Speaker 3 In many ways. Yes.

0:15:32 - Speaker 1 Damn all right.

0:15:33 - Speaker 3 Yeah, but the bigger issue is why you have better medical care, better infrastructure, better government, and then you have more anxiety in those and the reason why is because we've become accustomed in the first world, if you will, to have everything kind of going well and we expect that success is going to happen, great. We expect that our emotions are always going to be even killed and happy, and the minute we start to dip, then it's not just normal, it's actually. I'm a failure and that perception.

0:16:04 - Speaker 1 We take that on more, yes, other than just analyzing what something is.

0:16:08 - Speaker 3 Correct as opposed to like. It's just a really stressful time in my life. Our whole society is built around this control and this need to have control, and it's really not doing a good, it's doing a number on our mental health.

0:16:22 - Speaker 1 So not to jump ahead too much. But since we're on the subject of control, if we want to get better at understanding, managing, reducing anxiety, do we need to get better at relinquishing? Control? 100%, there's no question.

0:16:38 - Speaker 3 We need to accept how little is within our control and embrace that. I know it's tough, but that's what creates resilience and afforditude. That's what creates that resilience when we can actually embrace it. If you go to the gym and it's burning, you know you're building muscle. Well, our emotions are the same way. They're the same way you want to build emotionally resilient children, emotionally resilient adults, teens, tweens, whatever the whole thing.

0:17:03 - Speaker 1 Let them get banged up a little bit.

0:17:05 - Speaker 3 You have to at least take on the uncertainty of potentially, potentially getting banged up, potentially facing those, the fear. You really have to face the fear and the anxiety head on.

0:17:17 - Speaker 1 I want to share another thing. My listeners are like Chase, we get it, You've been through some stuff. But again, this is just kind of my process with the show, the more that I share what I'm going through and what I'm learning that I did go through. This is how I move forward in life, and so my goal is to kind of share these experiences transparently, Because I know somebody out there is going through, has gone through, something similar and with that besides the obvious of I've been through a hardship before, so maybe that's why there's a reduction in anxiety.

I also do give a lot of credit. I have a lot of trust in situations, a lot of trust in peers, a lot of trust in equipment that has gotten me through adversity. It's not so much just I did it and I went through it. There were a lot of other contributing factors. I had people to the left and right of me supporting me. I learned how to really understand my weapon, my equipment, my tools of the trade I mean, insert your profession here and I think the more that we have trust in the equipment and know that it is in support of our best interests and maybe sometimes our own well-being, and that in other people I do give a lot of credit to that as to why I think I have very minimal, if not non-existent, anxiety. How then, first of all, would you agree? And two, how can someone put more trust into their environment, their people, their tools, if maybe they first are struggling with putting that trust in themselves first to mitigate an anxious situation?

0:18:46 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I do agree. I definitely think that there's a lot to be said. You mentioned one piece in passing, though, that I wanted to dwell on. Were you able to share any concerns that you had, any struggles that you had with others in the military, or was it sort of like a lone experience?

0:19:06 - Speaker 1 Ooh, that's a really good question. I think low level, or I'd say surface level, after really any training or any experience whatsoever. We would always have these after-action reviews, and so the group would come together, everyone that went through it would come together and then your leadership would kind of hey, what are areas of sustainment, areas of improvement, how do we screw that up? What didn't work and what did work? So was that kind of coming together, but it wasn't like it is now where I'm really unpacking my feelings.

It was just very cut and dry, like this was good, this was bad. It wasn't like how did you feel about?

0:19:41 - Speaker 3 it, but at some point you did unpack it. Yes, ok.

0:19:44 - Speaker 1 Yes, I personally did Good yeah.

0:19:46 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's to me probably the more critical ingredient than having trust in your environment is being able to actually experience that struggle in the presence of others Really, yeah.

0:20:03 - Speaker 1 So experiencing struggle, experiencing adversity in the presence of others is more important to overcome anxiety.

0:20:11 - Speaker 3 Yeah.

0:20:11 - Speaker 1 Then going through it alone 100%, no question.

0:20:15 - Speaker 3 You look at cultures that are more collectivist as opposed to our very individualistic American culture, and they're just so much better because they don't suffer alone.

0:20:25 - Speaker 1 Community.

0:20:25 - Speaker 3 They have community. It's not like if you're having a bad day, you're not a pariah. You don't have to either put on a great face and show up or just ghost everyone. Those aren't the two options. You can actually show up and struggle and that's OK because of the collectivist culture.

0:20:46 - Speaker 1 You know, when I reflect on a lot of things we've talked about on the show any hack, anything to overcome physical mental health so much of anecdotal feedback I get and so much of the science that I look at and experts have shared on the show as well, especially I'm forgetting the gentleman's name but co-author contributing to the Harvard study now in longevity and happiness, like what is reducing Wabinger Robert. Waldinger, I got to check the notes. I'll link it down in the show notes for everybody.

It was this book called, I think, the Good Life, and it was the two recent gentlemen on the Harvard study looking at this 82-year-plus longitudinal study, the Harvard study on adult development, and it's all about community.

0:21:27 - Speaker 3 Sure, that's, the number one factor which predicts people's wellness at age 80 is the quality of your relationships at age 50. That's why we've got the experts here.

0:21:35 - Speaker 1 Yes, thank you for saying that better.

0:21:36 - Speaker 3 They're in my department oh.

0:21:38 - Speaker 1 OK, well, there we go, yeah, and it's also. It's a great reminder too, because I think there's a lot of comfort in knowing that that we have science to show. This can most likely help, and we're seeing a lot of proof that it does kind of empirically yeah, that means no question.

But I think a lot of people still struggle with making that connection. Because why, you know? Have we been burned in the past? Do we just really not have the ability? Do we not know how to trust others? Do we know how to open up? Is there fear of opening up? Yes, why are we opening our social community? All of the above?

0:22:07 - Speaker 3 I think anxiety is often at the root of those relationship issues and people are terrified to open up and to have somebody else be there for them. And the truth is we are probably going to get let down sometimes. That's humans are complicated. I like to quote my wife life is messy, relationships are messy and people are messy, and that's just the way it is. But we're still better off having those connections. I think part of it. If you can accept difficulty, emotional difficulty, by yourself and do it in the presence of others, it's so much more emotionally healthy than what we are doing in this country, which is getting rid of it, medicating it away immediately without even thinking about it, assuming that it's a disease, suffering alone, trying to squelch it. All of those processes are just dysfunctional.

0:23:01 - Speaker 1 They just are not working, to say the least. Yeah, and I can tell you, just as another testament to what works, the more that I have opened up about struggles and adversity, even if I don't have an answer or even if I don't know where I'm going with it, just the fact that I voice it out loud works in really two unique ways.

One for me it's almost like a sigh of relief. I finally I make it real, I get it out of my head, I get out of it Just what could go wrong maybe? So I say it out loud, it becomes very real. I honor whatever I'm going through. And then there's also this level of you know, to this external accountability. That kind of just happens magically If we post something online or if we share it with a loved one. I feel like maybe like 2A here. 2a is it allows that other person or another person who hears that message to go oh yeah, you too, me too. So there's that connection. So there's new community building right there.

Sure 100% 2B is kind of like. I feel like later on I get followed up on that person, that follower or a family member checks back in like hey, how's that thing going Sure? And it's like, oh yeah, you know what. I need to kind of check in on that.

0:24:15 - Speaker 3 Right, because it's so much, so easy. It's much easier to cognitively avoid and just keep it out of your mind, Absolutely. Years ago I gave a talk at Harvard College and one of the head of the counseling center, the Harvard Counseling Center was there. He said something I will never forget. It was amazing. He said that they did research on the different predictors of how well college students do throughout their four years of college. What are the predictors of them completing? What are the predictors of them having mental or emotional or other struggles and doing well? There was one factor that accounted for more variants than any other. Any guesses?

Relationships, yeah, having at least one person At least one person that you can talk to in a real way about what's on your mind.

0:25:00 - Speaker 1 Wow, and it could have been anyway. It could have been a classmate, family member, it could be a roommate.

0:25:03 - Speaker 3 It could be a stranger. Wow, it could be a therapist. Wow, it literally could be anyone. But do you have at least one person that you can essentially cry on their shoulder, proverbially? Or literally or literally yeah, I guess.

0:25:16 - Speaker 1 I don't recommend walking up and crying on a stranger's shoulder. It's been done. There might be a good social experiment there Could be.

Reminds me of that guy I've seen I forget his name on social media. He, I think, wears a mask or a box over his head and he has a sign that just says do you need a hug? Like free hugs. And he just stands out in public and the outpouring of people that just show up and they just I'm sure people do it, they do it. And then I've seen so many clips of just that's funny, it goes on and just like these people just start crying and have this huge emotional release and they go. You have no idea how much I needed this. They never actually see each other, but it's just that human to human connection and they just get it off their chest and they share that.

0:25:59 - Speaker 3 It's incredible, Yep, and it's also anxiolytic. It also protects us against anxiety. It's in fact even more Exiolytic, yeah, angiolite is a reduction of anxiety.

0:26:10 - Speaker 1 But it's even better.

0:26:11 - Speaker 3 It's actually a way of using anxiety in order to create that connection, because if you're struggling emotionally I mean aside from you, everyone else has anxiety, but whatever distress you are, having I'm not perfect people.

0:26:21 - Speaker 1 I'm just saying this is something I can't really relate to.

0:26:24 - Speaker 3 So, whatever it is, being able to cry on someone's shoulder, I promise you those relationships are going to be closer than they were before, had you not expressed what was really on your mind.

0:26:34 - Speaker 1 Amazing.

0:26:34 - Speaker 3 It's a great way of creating emotional intimacy. So actually it's a parlaying of the distress into something positive in your life. Ok.

0:26:40 - Speaker 1 I like that.

0:26:41 - Speaker 3 I like that.

0:26:42 - Speaker 1 Would you say that the current state of anxiety in the world? Are we just at a new level of the human condition? I feel like anxiety is something that's probably always been a part of the human experience. For sure, it's that fear response, you know, survival, fight, flight or freeze, as you're saying. Is this always going to be with us? Or where we are now? Is this a defect for lack of a better term in the human evolution?

0:27:06 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it is not a defect. What is defective, though, is our approach, our relationship with anxiety. We have made this into enemy number one. We've got to get rid of our anxiety. We can't live with it. The minute we start to feel anxious, we judge ourselves Something's wrong with me, Something's medically wrong. I mean to the point that the medical establishment actually has created this narrative that if you go to any PCP's office today and say you're feeling anxious, you're going to end up with a prescription, almost indefinitely, almost almost for sure. You're gonna end up with a prescription, and I think that sends a message that this is something wrong or something broken. That's what has to change. We need to start accepting that this is part of our lives, and it can even be a positive once we learn to deal with it.

0:27:59 - Speaker 1 Okay, all right, let's go there. How can anxiety be a positive for our life?

0:28:05 - Speaker 3 Okay, so we mentioned emotional resilience before and, just like working at a gym in order to build muscle, you gotta go through the burn. Emotionally, you gotta go through the same, and I think where this comes up in spades is with parents and kids. Parents and kids. Parents are super anxious when their kids are anxious and, firstly, I'll tell you, I've never seen an anxious child who did not have at least one anxious parent.

0:28:29 - Speaker 1 So it's kinda chicken or the egg kind of thing.

0:28:32 - Speaker 3 It's more like chicken.

0:28:35 - Speaker 1 It's more like parent?

0:28:37 - Speaker 3 Yeah, almost always, cause kids are gonna have bangs and bruises and anxieties and idiosyncrasies and stuff, like they're working out their childhood. They're gonna bang into things, it's just gonna happen. They're gonna have bad days and when we come to the parenting process that something's wrong with my kid. Oh no, think about it. If your child perceives that they're parent and they are they're not dumb, they know Right right, they're nervous about how they feel. So now you've delivered a message. Oh no, little Johnny can't feel this way.

0:29:16 - Speaker 1 Right, little Johnny shouldn't feel this way. We're not safe where. This is bad, this is not good.

0:29:20 - Speaker 3 Right. So now you've turned their normal emotions, which are part of human development, into something to fear. Great congratulations. You are on the way to having an anxiety disorder and no question, as opposed to like okay, you're having a hard time, so let's figure out how we can go there and learn how to live with this.

0:29:43 - Speaker 1 What about adult children? We grow up. Little Johnny grows up. We're 20s, 30s, whatever. We're an adult now and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this I know a lot of people that can relate to this Just the thought of going home as we're recording now, we're getting into holiday season 2023. People fear. People get so much anxiety like, oh, I gotta go home, I gotta see my parents, gotta see this family member, Just being around. What you would think would be the solution, like we talked about earlier, Can be Community, Can be. Doesn't get much more intimate than that, than your family, but yet people struggle with having so much anxiety around getting around and being around their family. How do we navigate that?

0:30:26 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's much harder if you don't have a loved one to share that experience with and who really knows what's going on, or at least a friend who you can text from. Thanksgiving dinner like this is really not going well. Yeah, me too.

0:30:40 - Speaker 1 How many people have that bailout for their family, Just like you know, a bailout for a date that's going wrong?

0:30:44 - Speaker 3 or something Right. You need it.

0:30:46 - Speaker 1 Code word muskrat. Get me out of here, right.

0:30:49 - Speaker 3 I like that. So setting up in advance is important. Even having a therapist, I think, is fine for this, like if somebody, if this is what we definitely need that out and somebody who really does understand the dynamics, you can actually relate to Other things. You know, going into the holiday season, often we tend to like let go a little bit. You know people are gaining weight, they're stopping to exercise as much, they're spending more than they can really afford. You know, if you know that you have an anxiety disorder, or I should just say if you have a disordered anxiety, of anxiety that's high going into this period of time, recalibrate rebalance, like be thoughtful about it. Going in, that could actually be parlaying your anxiety into a positive.

0:31:31 - Speaker 1 So you're saying, maybe don't let yourself go as much. You know, don't be as loose with spending diet, taking care of yourself physically.

0:31:40 - Speaker 3 Yeah, like, usually what happens when people are feeling anxious and stressed about family and stuff like this is they're spending a little too much, drinking a little too much, eating a little too much, not exercising as much, which they probably think are all coping mechanisms. Well, in some ways they are, because they do make it better in the short run, but those are really ways of not facing the emotions and just kind of drowning them out. The drinking one is definitely drowning it out, but really all of them are ways of sort of tamping down the anxiety, as opposed to being like oh my God, this is really hard and I want to actually figure out, you know, what's really at the root of it.

0:32:14 - Speaker 1 You bring up another question I had ready, and that's is anxiety. Is it just diagnosed anxiety, is it? I forget you said disorder Disorder, is it actual disorder? Is anxiety a disorder, or can we just have anxious feelings, or what's the difference?

0:32:34 - Speaker 3 Great question. Yeah, technically speaking, an anxiety disorder is when it causes significant distress or impairment, right? So when it's getting in the way of your life, typically, what gets you there is not understanding that some degree of anxiety is normal and then reacting to that initial level of normal anxiety as if you have a big problem.

0:32:54 - Speaker 1 That's what creates the cascade. Can you go back and just say that again? I'm sure a lot of people are jumping for joy here you?

0:32:59 - Speaker 3 say that Okay, typically what turns anxiety into a disorder, where it causes significant distress or impairment, is when that initial level of anxiety is framed or thought about, understood by oneself, as something is wrong with me, and then that creates a cascade Because what actually happens is the initial level of anxiety that I have, which is totally normal, because mom and dad are freaking me out, you know. I think Thanksgiving dinner didn't go well, whatever happened.

0:33:27 - Speaker 1 It's all like sensory input. Yeah, it's meant to happen so that we can understand our environment and react accordingly.

0:33:33 - Speaker 3 Totally, that is just normal. What happens is, when we interpret that as something's wrong, we literally release more adrenaline into our bloodstream. It physiologically creates a cascade of increased heart rate, increased breathing, increased sweating, increased muscle tension.

0:33:51 - Speaker 1 Love this journey for us great.

0:33:52 - Speaker 3 All of the physical symptoms of anxiety tend to multiply when we interpret that initial normal, healthy experience of anxiety as something's wrong.

0:34:03 - Speaker 1 So then, let's walk us through some tactical, in real life scenario solutions.

0:34:10 - Speaker 3 Yep.

0:34:11 - Speaker 1 First and foremost, awareness is the key in everything. So if we can be more aware of okay, I'm in a situation, or I'm beginning to think about a situation, that is inducing anxiety and I know all the things that you just said are about to happen, what can we do in real time to mitigate that, to reduce it, to really kind of take our power back and take our bodies back?

0:34:29 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I love everything you said, except taking our power back. It's not about taking our power back. It's actually about releasing and relinquishing power, and I'll explain what I mean. I'll tell you a personal story, a couple. When was it? It was over the summer. Over the summer I was traveling and I went to. I was in a foreign country and I had these symptoms and I had to go to a doctor. So I'm always like a little leery of physicians in foreign countries when you know, just it was a little sketchy.

So I sit down and the guy is like, yeah, this is what we have to do. And like I'm looking to the family member who I'm with, I'm like, does this seem legit? And she's like, yeah, probably. So I'm like, okay, we're gonna do this. So the person starts doing this procedure, which is actually in like on my face, and immediately I started having a vasovigal response and I'm like starting to like faint, like I could feel my anxiety. It was, it is an anxiety response related to medical procedure, and I recognized it happening right away and instead of fighting it and being like no, no, I'm not gonna, you know, I was just like I totally surrender. I totally surrender to this. Just, it's gonna happen for two, three minutes. I'm gonna feel lightheaded, it's gonna be uncomfortable. And I told the guy I'm like, yeah, I'm feeling a little lightheaded. So he's like, okay. So he like bent the chair back, gave me like a piece of sugar or something like that, and I just leaned into it. It was a very unpleasant three minute period of my life.

0:35:57 - Speaker 1 But only three minutes.

0:35:58 - Speaker 3 But it was only three minutes. Only three minutes. I didn't faint, I didn't freak out, I didn't stop the procedure, I didn't judge myself, I didn't get upset and the rest of the day I was fine. I walked out of there, I was fine. Wow, I just leaned into it and I noticed it happening. I'm like we're not going, we're not, you're not gonna cash me. I give up.

0:36:15 - Speaker 1 Not today. Satan Not today Satan.

0:36:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's the conversation.

0:36:19 - Speaker 1 I hear a couple of things in there. One I'm wondering is our physical state. Is our physical comfort something that we could enhance to maybe mitigate anxiety Cause I heard you say you kind of lean back I think you said relaxed but you know, you kind of just surrender to it and you kind of let it happen instead of probably being so rigid.

0:36:40 - Speaker 3 Well, it's actually the opposite. Really, what I was doing was I was letting the symptoms happen to me. I was actually not trying to be more comfortable, I was leaning into the discomfort.

0:36:49 - Speaker 1 Okay, okay, so you were allowing the physical sensations to happen. So maybe not resisting is a better way of saying okay, correct, not resisting at all.

0:36:57 - Speaker 3 And it's hard to not resist it because it's so uncomfortable when it occurs.

0:37:00 - Speaker 1 Right, and I heard you say that you kind of voiced it, you shared with this medical professional. Hey, here's what I'm feeling Professional Professional, this person performing this thing.

0:37:10 - Speaker 3 He was actually right. He was right about the whole situation.

0:37:12 - Speaker 1 Okay, so what power is there, or what's the benefit of voicing it out loud? That really helped you through that situation.

0:37:22 - Speaker 3 It was helpful that you know. Had he freaked out that I was, you know that would not have been good, and fortunately he had, you know, enough medical experience not to do that.

So I guess that was a positive. Also, I just felt the need to communicate what was going on, just like if I did faint or, just, you know, continue to have my anxiety build. I wanted him to be aware of that, since he was literally doing a procedure. Yeah, I think that was a piece of it, but the bigger factor right then and there was not fighting it, just letting it happen.

0:38:00 - Speaker 1 Something that I think a lot of people might be listening and going.

0:38:03 - Speaker 3 you know, easier said than done it is easier said than done and I've been practicing this for years. It happened to me also years, many years ago. I'll tell you another story. I was giving a talk. I've given talks that I don't know almost.

I think four Ivy League, maybe five Ivy League institutions, disserting audiences, you know, they're tough, like I'm prepared, I'm nervous before I got my PowerPoints and like, standing up there, you know, I know that they're gonna be asking really tough questions and it doesn't make me nervous because I'm prepared. So when I, a couple of years ago, I went to give a talk to a group of high school students, and the minute I get up there I'm like, oh my God, I'm actually nervous.

0:38:42 - Speaker 1 Why? What was so different about?

0:38:43 - Speaker 3 this, I wasn't prepared. I was like this is a cakewalk.

0:38:47 - Speaker 1 So preparation For sure. But then now, what do I do?

0:38:50 - Speaker 3 Because now I'm not prepared and I'm having like cotton mouth and I'm feeling all anxious like in and in front of the high school.

0:38:54 - Speaker 1 I suppose students are brutal and no chill. I'm sure they probably let you have it.

0:39:00 - Speaker 3 So they were totally fine. I just I said, great, I'm gonna face this anxiety, I'm not gonna let it get to me, I'm just gonna keep talking. And I talked, 120 seconds later it was gone. Wow, amazing. All right, you gotta face it, you gotta lean into it. You can't run away from it. You gotta and it's gonna happen to anybody. If you're an expert on the subject, it's gonna happen to you. If you've never dealt with this before, definitely.

0:39:23 - Speaker 1 Let's talk everyday life. Love, sweety watty, and you should try it. Besides those unique scenarios of I know I'm going to, this scenario, this situation, this person and we have, you know, have those great tools you kind of shared with us developing everyday Training, everyday resiliency for everyday stressors every day anxiety. I think I'm sure you would agree. Let me know there's great power. If we can overcome those small adversities every day, the small anxiety inducing scenarios, we're gonna be way more prepared for the larger ones, right? So what are some things that we can do? What is the daily anxiety training protocol look like for?

0:39:59 - Speaker 3 sure great questions. Well, let's talk about social anxiety, because it's super common. You know that person at work who you don't like to talk to, whether it's making a small talk, or whether it's a superior at work, or whether it's somebody who's you know a colleague or whatever it is. And I don't mean because you don't like them, I mean because it makes you feel anxious, something you know they're gonna ask you certain questions. A disclaimer, yeah.

0:40:22 - Speaker 2 Yeah people be definitely don't like. Yeah, that's different, that's a different that's a different.

0:40:27 - Speaker 3 Yeah, thriving with your anger.

0:40:29 - Speaker 1 Oh.

0:40:33 - Speaker 3 But with regards to the anxiety you know have making that small talk, not having to. You know Drink a beer before you go and have a conversation with somebody. Often in college, by the way, students with alcohol disorders have social anxiety.

So you would think they're most comfortable because they're probably the most social right, but it's kind of they're most Drunk, but being able to actually, without liquor courage actual courage must mustering it up making small talk, having that Conversation, raising your hand in class, raising your hand in a meeting, mm-hmm, you know, being able to say like, hey, this is what. I'm out there making a social media post. I've seen people who don't have a social media profile because they're too nervous. What if somebody sees this? And what if they think that, yeah, they probably will? Will it really matter? No, just get out there and do it anyway. And you know, I encourage people, at least on a weekly basis, for emotional fortitude, general, you know, general advice, at least once a week doing something that makes you moderately anxious.

0:41:33 - Speaker 1 It makes me think right now, everybody and their brother and I can't talk because I just got one Is it super into like cold plunging? You know the ice bath thing?

0:41:39 - Speaker 3 Yeah, okay yeah, jumping into adversity choosing adversity.

0:41:43 - Speaker 1 It's so true though. I mean choosing consciously, choosing. It can be ice bath, it could be anything that you know you don't like brings you discomfort, but I think there's a lot of power to be had. You might disagree with the power thing again, but You're choosing to not live in fear. You're choosing to get ahead of your anxiety.

0:42:02 - Speaker 3 You're choosing to act from an empowered Position now I know what you're saying by power, which you're seeing, is when you surrender to the fact that it's gonna suck, you actually realize that you have the inner strength to be able To overcome it.

0:42:14 - Speaker 1 Oh, he gets it. Yeah, okay, fine. Now there's what we say all the time in military just embrace the suck, that's just something that stuck with me for years.

0:42:21 - Speaker 3 Yeah, good, that's why you're not anxious, yeah that's why you're not anxious, yeah, and once you do, you're not gonna judge yourself and you realize that you have a lot more Capacity internally. You know, today people don't think they can.

0:42:36 - Speaker 1 Go deeper there, please. I think that's a huge realization. People don't realize the capacity they have to endure these situations.

0:42:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I wanted my book talks. The other day, somebody came over to me afterwards and she was into yours and I said like what did I say no, no, you don't understand. I've been to a hundred mental health talks in the last several years and this is you are the first person to ever tell me that I can handle this. Wow, everybody else is saying you can't handle this. Put it away like to, you know, tamp it down, con go. You have to chill, relax. And I'm like no, this is a human emotion, this is what you're built for. Muster up the strength. It's not gonna be fun, it's not gonna be easy, you're gonna have setbacks, but you can do this. And she was literally in tears.

0:43:19 - Speaker 1 Wow, what a huge realization for her. Yeah. What would you say are maybe two or three Today most common anxiety inducing Situations, thoughts that you kind of see most people dealing with yeah, yeah, the most common is gonna be generalized anxiety disorder, basically the worry warts of the world just about everything all the time Okay worried about the money, worried about the economy, worried about the government, worried about climate change, worried about you name it. I think we all know somebody like that.

0:43:53 - Speaker 3 Health, that's another one, you know, and usually it's one or two domains at least and those worries just Chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter throughout the day. Lots of tension, lots of you know, maybe some stomach upset and, yeah, chronically, chronically worried and uncomfortable and anxious. So I'd be number one.

0:44:12 - Speaker 1 Okay, what about some non-medication approaches to really helping someone who has, let's say, actual diagnosed anxiety disorder or just Living with high levels of chronic anxiety, just feeling anxious all the time? We don't want to go medication? What are maybe some other modalities besides everything we've already talked about? If you can just talk about medication briefly, you know I.

0:44:36 - Speaker 3 Firstly, more than 50% of my patients are on some form of medication and I don't have a problem with it in theory, but the way that it's used is more important to me than whether it's used and how do you try to explain that?

Yeah, when people take psychiatric medications in order. Let's say, let's take your anxiety, think about it as a scale of zero to ten, okay, okay. So zero means you're dead. So nobody is almost known as zero anxiety, so that's not good. So we don't want to go to zero. Ten means like your Brain is gonna explode or something like that. I won't really, but so basically your left was one to nine, right One, two, three or low, four, five, six or medium and seven, eight, nine or high. Let's say somebody is running really hot and they're in like the seven, eight, nine category, almost chronically or in certain situations, I don't mind that person taking certain psychiatric compounds in order to reduce things to a four, five or six.

0:45:28 - Speaker 1 To lower their baseline, to then better manage and then they can manage the four, five or six.

0:45:33 - Speaker 3 But when they're promised this golden pill to get you from a nine or an eight, or even from a four or five or six To a zero, or do a one, that is going to fail Because that anxiety is going to rebound, you are for sure gonna have. There's no such thing as a magic pill that you can take to Get rid of all your anxiety. If someone's trying to sell that to you, hmm, I wouldn't buy it too quickly. So I don't have a problem with people taking certain medications, at least temporarily, to get their anxiety down to a mid-range and then they're learning to tolerate, because it is hard to tolerate sevens, eights and nines on a daily basis for some people. I have to imagine yeah, that's that's, it's very I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very, very challenging. Even a four, five and six is gonna be hard for certain people. You know that mid-range of anxiety that's a challenge. That's doable though. But the problem I have is when people are taking medications in order to eliminate their anxiety.

Aha, that's just that's just not Effective, it doesn't help and it's not realistic, it's not realistic and it makes things worse.

0:46:36 - Speaker 1 What about social media? Yeah, what's your opinion on social media as it relates to anxiety inducing or Angiolidic was that the term you said earlier?

0:46:45 - Speaker 3 Definitely not Angiolidic. Angiolidic would be making it less some posts might be trying Might be doing our best, but we're still on the platform.

0:46:52 - Speaker 1 That's mostly, I think a lot of people would say, anxiety inducing. Would you agree? How do we navigate this?

0:46:57 - Speaker 3 Yeah. So a couple things I think are happening with with social media. One is there's a reasonable amount of scientific literature about people comparing themselves to others and if you're looking at everybody else having a great time doing awesome, never having a bad day, always looking great, and then you're looking at yourself, that social comparison is not going to be helpful. So In some ways that's changed. You know, post COVID people started to become more revealing about their struggles.

I agree emotionally and we see that on social media. So that's actually been in some ways a positive, but we're still seeing the effects of media. So what's going on? So I think one of the other factors, which is probably a bigger one, is that when people interact with social media as opposed to Interperson, in-person relationships, it's sort of easy to shut things off. When things get complicated, like what, the minute I start to feel anxious if I'm speaking to somebody in person. I have to navigate that.

0:47:50 - Speaker 1 Oh, my god, so true.

0:47:52 - Speaker 3 I can't just like point.

0:47:54 - Speaker 1 You can't just swipe up to the next one. You can't like this. This real is Anxiety inducing. Let me just go into the next one.

0:48:00 - Speaker 3 There's no such thing you got to deal with.

0:48:01 - Speaker 1 Wow, how many people you think are probably feeling that way in real world situations?

0:48:05 - Speaker 3 Unfortunately, I think it's. Yeah, it's very substantial. So then what?

0:48:09 - Speaker 1 do they do? You're in the situation.

0:48:12 - Speaker 3 In which situation? In the real world situation, real world. Yeah, well, that's why people don't have relationships today.

0:48:16 - Speaker 1 Damn okay.

0:48:18 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's why people are very flighty and the minute things are uncomfortable we run away and oh, so you're just describing everyone in Los Angeles. It's not just the whole. Hey, oh, it's better. It is worse here, I think.

0:48:30 - Speaker 1 But yeah, to say the least. To say the least, in your work you talk about this unique concept of Anxiety being this double-edged sword. It can spawn success or make it harder to succeed. Sure? How can we know which way our Anxiety is going to take us?

0:48:49 - Speaker 3 it can take you. Either way. That's up to you. That is a choice that we, should, we each make. You know, if you're gonna judge yourself and get upset about it and try to eliminate it and try to regain control and try to, you know, eliminate all the anxiety from your life and eliminate all difficulty from your life, that's not gonna help you which might be even more anxiety inducing.

0:49:08 - Speaker 1 It is trying to get rid of it or avoid anything that could cause it. It's exhausting.

0:49:12 - Speaker 3 It is outright exhausting. You can't do that, then you're chasing mental equanimity for your entire life that you will never reach ever.

0:49:20 - Speaker 1 So then there probably comes into play that surrender aspect you were talking about, correct?

0:49:24 - Speaker 3 That's exactly what I was talking about, and that's where the mental resilience happens and that's when people can actually use the other edge of the sword, which is no, I'm not gonna let this get to me. I know it's gonna be hard. This is my dream. I'm gonna pursue it. I'm gonna climb up that mountain and I know it's gonna be Challenging, and I know it's not gonna be fun and it's gonna. You know, whatever it's gonna be, but I'm I'm not giving up it reminds me of this quote from the Stork philosopher, seneca.

0:49:51 - Speaker 1 I'm a big stoicism fan, all right, and I'm pretty sure it's Seneca he goes. We suffer far more in imagination than in reality.

0:49:59 - Speaker 3 I love that.

0:50:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I think what he was probably getting at, however many thousands of years ago, was anxiety that I couldn't think of a BC, a more BC way to describe, you know, anxiety.

0:50:14 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it is in our imagination that we have this facade that we're trying to pursue, of trying to achieve of just happiness all the time, and it is just not true. It's just not. Humans aren't built that way.

0:50:28 - Speaker 1 No, no I.

0:50:31 - Speaker 3 Not if we want to thrive. Ironically, right.

0:50:33 - Speaker 1 Yeah, they're really just kind of hit me after you said that, I think I'm probably guilty of it too. You know so many of us now. We have smartphones, we have podcasts, we have Access to experts, we have access to information, we have access to options that can really positively influence our life, that can help us reduce pain, reduce stress, potentially live longer have higher quality of life, all these things for our health and well-being physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. But in pursuit of that, are we just adding more stress to our life?

0:51:11 - Speaker 3 in many ways. Yes, I don't have a problem with pursuing it, as long as it also comes with a healthy dose of acceptance that there are limits and those human limits are actually so, so healthy when we accept that, like there's something, sometimes there's only so much we can know, only so much we can do yeah. And things are beyond our control and it sucks, but it's better to accept that and come to terms with it then to have that facade lifted Against our will, which is never, never works out Well completely agree.

0:51:50 - Speaker 1 Kind of going back to my roots a little bit, I'll share with you earlier my history as a as a health coach and you know, physical well-being is a big part of my life and my audience as well. What role does physical health, exercise, quality food, nutrition, all that, what? What role does taking care of our physical body Play in our anxiety Sure?

0:52:10 - Speaker 3 There are two really key pieces, and then there are other pieces which are also important, but from my understanding less. The two key pieces are sleep, oh, that's my love language right there.

0:52:21 - Speaker 1 and physical and physical exercise.

0:52:23 - Speaker 3 sleep and exercise, okay, yeah sleep is critical, and everybody has whatever sleep needs they are, whether it's seven hours a night, eight hours a night, nine hours a night Probably somewhere in that range, though, and most people do not get enough, and part of what sleep does and, in addition to rejuvenating the body and rebuilding it and, you know, giving you sort of sharpening the Sauce so that way, the next day, you're, you know, able to able to perform more optimally. Another part of it, though, is that you know, whenever people go to sleep, they kind of have to let go. You really have to say the only thing you can do yeah if you want to go to sleep.

Yeah, that's literally what it is. It's like I'm not going to do any more work today. I'm done, and maybe it's because I live in the northeast and we're all, like you know, 80 hour a week. Folks are like Working, you know, working kind of crazy. Ah, that east coast life.

0:53:08 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I remember those days.

0:53:10 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm still there, uh, but for now, you know, you got to sort of let go and be like no, like my to-do list. We'll be here tomorrow and the next day, and this is where the day ends, and that's sort of uh, exercise in, uh, in acceptance and in uh, yeah, recognizing our human limits. So those are, those are some of the reasons sleeper so is so critical. And then what about exercise? Oh, physical exercise, so cardiovascular exercise. I have a couple of colleagues who've been doing research, really amazing research, that if you compare the effects of therapy To exercise or even medications to exercise, it's the same people are doing just as well, just by doing. Wow, what is 150 minutes? I think it's 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise a week for two or three weeks.

0:53:57 - Speaker 1 Compared to the same amount of time with a therapist.

0:53:59 - Speaker 3 No, compared to just traditional.

0:54:01 - Speaker 1 Yeah, okay, wow.

0:54:03 - Speaker 3 Yes, pretty amazing, and a couple reasons why. One of the things when you go, when you're Exercising, you're facing distress. It's uncomfortable Like nobody. You know like I mean.

0:54:14 - Speaker 1 Yes you're choosing adversity. You're choosing to put yourself through a temporary hardship, knowing that there's going to be a positive output on the other side, exactly exactly, and the door endorphins that you get.

0:54:23 - Speaker 3 You know, any of those positive effects are always after people have gone through that initial hardship, the initial challenge. So putting ourselves through that is actually very mentally fortifying. And also a lot of the physical Feelings that happen when you exercise, at least cardiovascular, are the same as anxiety. Your heart rate increases oh so true, so right. Your breathing rate increases, you sweat.

0:54:45 - Speaker 1 So we stimulate, we consciously choose to induce the same physiological experience Of anxiety, correct? But yeah, it's actually good for us.

0:54:54 - Speaker 3 Correct and we're actually showing your body. Oh, I can have all these symptoms and it doesn't kill me like wow, this is actually a normal part of the human condition. Sometimes my heart goes higher, sometimes it goes lower, sometimes I breathe more, sometimes my muscles are more tense. Okay, either for emotional or for physical reasons but, I'm curious.

0:55:12 - Speaker 1 Maybe you have the information behind this In that study or maybe anything else you're aware of. Let's add in the community aspect Is it as empowering or maybe more empowering or more? Is there more benefit to Exercise in like a group? So we add that community aspect.

0:55:28 - Speaker 3 That's a good question. I don't know. I haven't seen actual data comparing that. That's already a more sophisticated question than I've seen the science, but in theory it should be.

0:55:37 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm wondering. It kind of makes me think about you know Crossfitters or people are in boot camp or Jazz or size or whatever. I mean you do all these things together and you have that You're raising your standards and your physical capabilities, but also those around you. So I wonder if there's another unique layer there.

0:55:53 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it sure is sure might be, as opposed to the the lone, the lone Runners like yeah right, or the solo runners.

0:56:00 - Speaker 1 You know, are they not as Anxiety optimized as maybe you know, crossfit or aerobics classes? It's probably.

0:56:07 - Speaker 3 Now I'm just thinking he's spitballing here, but I probably. It's the case that if people are doing physical exercise, they have to supplement their social connection in another way romantic relationship excellent point community, however it is. So I think these are human needs and as long as we're getting them met not necessarily at the same time, um, I think that's where the that's where the love is.

0:56:28 - Speaker 1 I'm so glad you said human needs. That makes me think if we took a map of just human needs, you know, was it a Maslow's hierarchy needs?

0:56:36 - Speaker 2 sure, but maslow yeah, for some reason I'm gonna say Pavlov.

0:56:39 - Speaker 3 There we go If we kind of just look at that's something.

0:56:43 - Speaker 1 Yeah, they're so totally different. Pavlov is the dogs.

0:56:46 - Speaker 3 Yes, there we go.

0:56:47 - Speaker 1 There we go. I'm not the psychologist everybody. If we kind of maybe just go back and remind ourselves, maybe put up a list on the wall here are the human, here are my human needs and then kind of fill in you know our time, our schedule or you know our day around that, just to make sure that the basic human needs are being met, do you think we would have less to worry about, quite literally less anxiety?

0:57:09 - Speaker 3 Yes, and I'll tell you why. When abraham's, abraham maslow's high, highest level of needs. Do you know what it was?

0:57:17 - Speaker 1 Uh, is it financial security?

0:57:18 - Speaker 3 Nope something called self actualization, okay, okay. Self actualization is when you have this vision of yourself and this vision of the world and you dig really deep and you're like that's what I want to do.

0:57:30 - Speaker 1 Hmm, so like our highest self, maybe the the version of ourselves that we want to, that you really want to be alive?

0:57:37 - Speaker 3 what do you really really want? And Invariably, people who pursue what they really truly want in life Are gonna have anxiety along the way. Hmm, because you got to face uncertainty, you got to face adversity, you got to face the fact that you're doing something which is unique and nobody else is gonna get, because it's your unique job. So you know you got it. It's gonna take time, it's gonna take it, you're gonna take it on the chin. And that, in some ways, is the main reason why anxiety is potentially such a healthy thing, because if you pursue your dreams and take on that anxiety and you're like I'm in, I'm in anyway. This feels like death, but I'm marching. That's where the money is it makes me wonder.

0:58:21 - Speaker 1 So then, are you saying that the more of a high achiever you are, the more anxiety you're going to?

0:58:27 - Speaker 3 have. It doesn't have to be a high achiever. I mean, like, like I said, like I'm from the northeast, you know I'm, you know Boston, I'm an office in New York, so you know, yeah, I guess for me it might be on that Realm, but it could be having having a family, it could be having starting a new relationship. It could be doing something much more low-key. It could be building a villain vineyard. I mean it doesn't have to be. You know of the high achieving realm that you, proverbially that people do today in America.

0:58:58 - Speaker 1 Let me reword that a little bit. Would it be fair to say that the more in alignment we are to our highest self and the more we daily consciously choose to work towards that highest self, the more anxiety induced activities we are probably going to experience definitely?

0:59:17 - Speaker 3 At least at some point along that way.

0:59:18 - Speaker 1 So I should just stop with my personal development journey right here.

0:59:21 - Speaker 3 No, I think you're on it.

0:59:23 - Speaker 1 We should just chill.

0:59:25 - Speaker 3 No, I think you're on it. I mean I, and I don't think you're. You're bothered by the, just by whatever distress comes your way, because you're like okay, that's it, and that's why you're not anxious.

0:59:34 - Speaker 1 That, yeah, that's it. It kind of makes me think to go back to the beginning. Um, it's almost like I don't want to say this. The most growth I have ever felt, seen, experienced in the moment or after the fact in my life has only ever come after severe Stress, severely demanding, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual experiences. Um, and now, the more in tune that I am with myself, the more complacent that I feel, the more Less challenged that I have in my life. I think that's actually where, if I had to put a pulse on when anxiety lives in my life, it's honestly more there.

1:00:24 - Speaker 3 That's profound.

1:00:25 - Speaker 1 I get I'm kind of just realizing this as we're talking I get more, I guess, worried of Am I doing enough? Am I growing? Am I challenging myself and my complacent? Because I only know to be, uh, physically stressed out, mentally stressed out, financially stressed out, putting myself through the military, the death of my father, all these transitions, all these other things we talked about and again, I'm not alone, but just I have had a lot in a relatively short period of time, and so it's almost like my subconscious it needs that, and without it it's like you know I chase. What are you doing?

1:01:06 - Speaker 3 I think everyone is Like that at the end of the day, but very few people tap into it. Hmm, it takes bravery, it takes a lot of courage to go there and to say you know what I really want to be the best version of myself. Once you get used to doing it, I agree. I think it's very uncomfortable not to, and that's that's probably a sign of of health, emotional resilience and emotional strength, spiritual strength.

1:01:36 - Speaker 1 If yeah, yeah, I'll just leave it at that. Absolutely yeah. Um, getting kind of towards the end here, I do want to go back to one thing you're talking about with sleep again. Sleep is huge in my life. I've been prioritizing it as my number one hierarchy for years.

It's given me dividends way more than just a good night's sleep, but a Lot of us. When we lay down to go to sleep, I think that's when most of the woes come flooding in. That's when maybe we feel the most anxiety we worry about I Didn't get enough done today. I forgot to do this.

I have all this to do tomorrow, but yet I'm hearing you say sleep is when we should be surrendering the most and has so much potential to reduce anxiety. Kind of feels like the cycle. So we're there, we're laying down trying to go to sleep. How do we shut off the?

1:02:17 - Speaker 3 anxiety Great question insomnia, anxiety induced insomnia, and I think what you're talking about is delayed sleep onset, when people can't get to sleep. Yes, yes, yeah, it's a little different if they're waking up in the middle and I don't know entirely, just you can't.

1:02:30 - Speaker 1 You can't shut it off, can't turn your mind off.

1:02:31 - Speaker 3 Yeah, don't stay in bed for more than 20 minutes worrying. Hmm, get out of bed and Don't use your device. You know that's not time to be productive. Don't go to your computer, it's not. We're not going to clear out your email box or start planning. The next day, have a book that you read. That's, you know, reasonably inspiring, not too intense. Senator cat, a physical book, I don't mean a Kindle, I'm not talking about no devices.

1:02:56 - Speaker 1 Why is that?

1:02:58 - Speaker 3 the devices. I Don't know about you, but like if I pick up my phone, even if I'm doing something else, like I'm gonna flip back into work mode.

1:03:06 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah and I'm probably not the only one. You might see notifications and then my pop-up. It's gonna get you curiosity. I'm team hard copy all the way.

1:03:13 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I like her. I like hard copies. I think it's the best way to go at nighttime, especially for nighttime. Read on the couch, have you?

1:03:21 - Speaker 1 know you're saying get out of bed after 20 minutes. Get out of bed, get the book 20, maybe 30 minutes.

1:03:25 - Speaker 3 Okay most definitely not more than 30. Do not step in more than 30 minutes in bed, tossing, turning, being more, being worried, being anxious, not helpful.

1:03:33 - Speaker 1 What is it about staying in bed in that anxiety? Do state that is not good.

1:03:38 - Speaker 3 It teaches your body that your bed is a place to worry. Hmm, so you're actually more likely to worry the next night.

1:03:45 - Speaker 1 Okay, what about if we devote a spot in our house or apartment to this is my worry spot, this is my worry couch.

1:03:52 - Speaker 3 That's the opposite kind of that actually. Yeah, that actually be very helpful.

1:03:55 - Speaker 1 I'm only allowed to worry in this chair.

1:03:56 - Speaker 3 Yeah, and one that's great. I like the chair. I would also maybe even pick a time of day, and I have this, and it was one of the strategies really. Yeah, to have a five minute worry period every single day.

1:04:06 - Speaker 1 Someone says we have like a pity party.

1:04:07 - Speaker 3 We have a worry party as well, something like that. I don't know about the pity for it, but the worry party is a good idea, because then you really, then you're actually fully confronting what you're actually upset about.

1:04:18 - Speaker 1 I wouldn't do that at nighttime, by the way, you know.

1:04:20 - Speaker 3 Okay, good, probably something during the day that you want to do. Yeah, we really confront the uncertainty in your life and go for it.

1:04:26 - Speaker 1 Okay, I want to go a little bit more there. Sure, does that really work? If we go, all right, this thing that I'm feeling, the scenario that I'm in, is gonna make me anxious. But you know what I scheduled my anxiety party, my anxiety couch time. You know, in two hours from now, can we actually Compartmentalize and save it for a time and a place to process?

1:04:47 - Speaker 3 many people can and I found with worry warts. This is actually very, very really strategy and they can do it. Wow, yeah, because they know like oh no, I'm gonna worry about it, then it's gonna be okay.

1:04:58 - Speaker 1 Then I Guess it kind of makes sense. I'm just kind of just thinking we were talking about anxiety earlier of just really just this, this fear of kind of like uncertainty in the future. But if we can close that loop a little bit and go, okay, the thing that I'm worried about or going to get worried about correct, the future of that might be uncertain, but In the near future I'm gonna process it. So it's kind of like yes, we're, we're time traveling a little bit and solving that in our consciousness right there.

1:05:23 - Speaker 3 Yes, there's also something else that happens when people worry very intently during that five minute period, that actually helps them to process what's really going on. I want people, when they're going through that you know five minute worry Exercise, to really go a step deeper than they normally would not just worrying, we're actually processing. It's not just surface level.

It's something like, really like what would happen if this outcome were to occur. Not just the what if, what if, what if right, but like really what if answer the question, wow, and then go to the next step, and then what if really answer that question and then go.

1:05:59 - Speaker 1 It's not pleasant, but a great practice, very practice, yeah, helpful practice. What about meditation? Speaking of, practices. What role does that have in?

1:06:08 - Speaker 3 excellent question. Yeah, it's very popular and it has its use. It depends on how it's used like the style of meditation. Um, it's more. You know, even multiple styles can be used in positive or less positive ways. If the purpose of meditation is to get rid of your anxiety and to shut it down, to have be distracted from it, hmm, you're gonna make it worse.

1:06:28 - Speaker 1 Really yes. So okay, I'm feeling anxious, I'm gonna meditate. You're saying that's not the way to go.

1:06:32 - Speaker 3 If the purpose of the meditation is to get rid of your anxiety, okay not helpful Okay but if the purpose of the meditation is actually being mindful and to be like wow, I'm really feeling anxious right now it's in my chest. Fascinating, it's in my shoulders, I'm worried about this aspect of my life. I'm worried about oh, that's what's happening to me. Wow, now it's in my stomach, then you're actually using meditation to process your anxiety, wow, to experience it, to Not force it away, but to like, let it envelop you almost that is it in that way very helpful.

1:07:09 - Speaker 1 That's incredible. That Makes me kind of think. How many people go into a meditation, go into a mental health practice, go into any kind of mental health modality, I'll say, with an intention, and you don't quite get the result that you wanted be like? I had such a clear intention, I had this picture of what I wanted my life to look like, how I wanted to feel, and, for whatever reason, you don't quite get there. I agree, I think it's because we're so focused on getting that result, solving that problem, instead of just making a time and a space physically, emotionally to just Sit with it, correct.

1:07:54 - Speaker 3 That's what has to happen. That's one of the messages of anxiety Is that we have to just sit with it. It's not time to just. It's not always the time to move forward. Sometimes we just have to just be.

1:08:06 - Speaker 1 Another quick little personal story. And then, speaking of forward, I want to get your definition of ever forward, sure, that really reminds me. So, about almost three years ago now, I decided to really face and surrender. I had at that time undiagnosed PTSD around the death of my father and, long story short, I've shared it on the show many times I went into ketamine assisted psychotherapy, sure, and the first two sessions were complete surrender with or without a partner present.

Yourself. The first two is it was a small group. It was three of us in there. It was actually a military group. And then the third one was solo, but I was with the therapists you know before and after.

It was yeah, the first two were with a group. The first two I don't think the group aspect had that much to do with it, but my intention was just I went in because I wanted to really heal, but my intention was to surrender. I wanted to just completely surrender to the experience. It sounds good, it was. It was fascinating and I had literal years of healing in those two hours, those two sessions. The third session I went in with the kind of the expectation of the same scenario, of the kind of the same experience that I had. It was less intention and more Like I want to drive the boat kind of thing, and I didn't get out of it.

1:09:25 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I won't say anything, but it was the whole of control, exactly, exactly.

1:09:31 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and so I mean, even in such an altered state of consciousness experience as ketamine assisted psychotherapy, even going through the guided meditation, even going through the therapy work before and after an integration, all the you know, before and after and even during experiences were the same. The only different variable was my intention, my lack of surrender. It makes all the difference. It truly does. It makes all the difference. Well, this has been incredible. I feel like it's spawning off so many other ideas and questions, but I'll have to check out more of the book. The audience got to check out the book, all your information, of course. I've listed down the show notes for everybody.

But my last question I want to ask you this has definitely helped me move forward in my life. What does that mean to you to live a life ever for those two words? What does that mean to you here today? Thanks, yeah, ever forward to me is.

1:10:19 - Speaker 3 Being driven by your values, being driven by your vision, and not being driven by your emotions. Mmm, your emotions are there to help you and shouldn't be getting in the way, and often when we get hung up on Having to feel a certain way, wanting to feel a certain way, it can cloud our judgment and make it very hard for us to actually pursue who we really are. So that's what I'm thinking. I love that interpretation, thank you Thanks.

1:10:46 - Speaker 1 Thank you Again, work. My audience go to connect with you. Like I said, everything will be linked for them. Yeah, check out my website. Dh Ross marin ROS.

1:10:55 - Speaker 3 I am calm, the books available in audible and all sorts of Other places that books are sold. I love to hear from people feedback about the books, so if you've read it or heard it or anything you know, please do shout me, send me a note. Amazing, yeah, thank you guys so much.