EFR 724: Why Men Aren't Being Men Anymore and Decoding the Emotional Disconnect in Modern Masculinity with Dean Pohlman

0:00:01 - Speaker 1 Alright, Dean Pohlman back on the show. It's been a minute since Mr Man Flow Yoga himself shared some airwave space with me here. I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with you for your show for the first time, a little over, I think, exactly a year ago now. Funny, we're actually we're just talking about your new homie, adam von Rothfelder. That's why I was actually in Austin last year celebrating his 40th birthday.

0:00:29 - Speaker 2 I'm sipping Strong Coffee.

0:00:30 - Speaker 1 So it's come full circle, man. Welcome back to the show.

0:00:33 - Speaker 2 Yeah, thanks for having me again.

0:00:37 - Speaker 1 I would love to dive into, just out of the gate, a topic that has been on my mind, on my heart, and you know, after talking with you recently, I think you as well, and being that the two of us are men content creators, partners, spouses, husbands you know, you've got father on me as of now, but I feel like male leaders, male content creators, just if nothing else.

I think a lot of what we do and who sees us is very male forward, but a part of that is male connection.

Yeah, we're doing a lot of things, we might be leading the charge on some things, but especially in the digital age, oddly enough, I feel like we have even more disconnect in general with people and what we do and how we do it, but especially in the brotherhood and the male connection and just male meaningful relationships, and I really don't think we're alone. And that's exactly actually kind of what you and I talked about recently on my latest episode on your show. But I would love to kind of bring it full circle and get your perspective as a father now of two, as a creator, an entrepreneur called, you know, man flow yoga, leading the charge for this modern version of masculinity how would you define the status of the modern man today, not exactly defining what a modern man is, but like the status, the perceived status, of where that type of person is. What are they struggling with? What are they succeeding with? Just where are we? Let's get a poll check on the modern male status today man.

0:02:18 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so this is something that I discuss in. You know, you've been on the pot, you've been on my podcast, the better man pause gas, and this is kind of a concept that I explore. It's the whole reason I kind of started the better man podcast in the first place, and I'll preface that by saying manful yoga is my business. That's why I you know I provide male focused yoga content, but ultimately, the goal with that stems from this desire to improve. It stems from this belief that we can be better, and when I look at kind of the status of masculinity today, I think we're in this period of reevaluating what that means, and it's also, in a lot of ways you could say that it's under attack. I don't know if I don't know if the attack story is the right one. I think it's more, I would like to think more so that we are realizing that there's a potential better way to do this, that there's a way that we could do it, that we could define masculinity in a way that is more inclusive and not just one version of what masculinity is, but instead coming up with maybe different role models of what that could look like or, even better yet, just coming up with overall concepts that can be universally applied. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be this way in order to be considered a strong, masculine man. There are lots of different ways that can be personified, that can be acted in real life. So for me, you know, the big question is how do we take what is and has been effective, helpful in terms of our traditional sense of masculinity, and how do we now reconcile that with the aspects of masculinity that are missing from that, and namely, these are aspects that tend to come at an emotional and mental cost to our well-being. So I think it's figuring out what that looks like and it's also popularizing just this idea of being more vulnerable, of having more connection emotionally with other men.

That's what we really talked about. It was just this huge lack of emotional connection with other men. Intimacy with other men in a non-sexual way, just intimacy in the sense that having conversations that get to emotions, that get on to a deeper level. Where we're having these conversations that go beyond oh man, did you see the game last week? Or like let's go watch the game together and let's have a few beers, but really getting into. Hey, man, this is really. This is really struggling. I'm really struggling with this right now and I'd like to talk about it with you and I'd like to are you going through the same thing, kind of thing? So that's a broad range of ideas about what you ask, but that's kind of what I see it as. It's the figuring out what's going well, let's keep that, and what's missing, let's try to integrate that.

0:05:57 - Speaker 1 I was just jotting down some notes. I wanted to make sure I came back to these. First and foremost, you mentioned how the modern man, the modern male archetypal, say you know you're kind of questioning, is it more so under attack or is it other stuff? My first question is if we are under attack, if the modern man, that archetype, that definition, that shell is under attack, who is attacking it and why do you think?

0:06:38 - Speaker 2 The idea of toxic masculinity that's come up is. I think it's good in the sense that we are pointing out aspects of masculinity that are not helpful to anybody and they're ultimately hurtful. So I think it's good that we're pointing out some of these things like hey, this actually isn't a good thing. We think about this thing as manly and actually you're just being an asshole. This is not a good thing. So we should call this out and we should revise this.

The problem with that is that people have jumped onto that and now, anytime they see something that they don't like that's masculine, they're like that's toxic masculinity. So it's becoming kind of this catch-all like let's, you know, I don't like this, so I'm going to call it toxic masculinity, I'm going to throw it in my bucket of things that I cancel and it just makes it. It eliminates having a conversation about the good aspects of masculinity. Like, I think that masculinity, when it's practiced in a way that's helpful, is something that provides reassurance, it provides a foundation, it provides comfort, it provides helpful discipline, it provides inspiration, and those things can all be practiced in a way that is not helpful. But to throw out all of that just because it's masculine, and to try, and you know to try and throw in the baby out with the bathwater, kind of thing.

Exactly Throw in the baby, yeah, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And then, I think, trying to, instead of having a mask on an effeminate, I'm trying to say like, well, these are all like we can have. Instead of saying mask on an effeminate, let's just like, let's just make it like one thing and there's just being a good human. And to which extent I think that that can be true. I haven't personally done the thinking or had the conversations or the training to be able to talk about okay, here's like a gender neutral versus mask on an effeminate. But I think the important thing to remember for this conversation is that we are we. Their masculinity as a whole is, I think, under attack and we're at risk of throwing out all of masculinity in an effort to get rid of the bad mask, some bad manifestations of masculinity.

0:09:35 - Speaker 1 Well said, well said, and I do agree with a lot of that, and I think that's probably well, I should say. I ponder, I wonder, if this is also getting lobbed into a lot of what we have seen over the last several years in terms of cancel culture. Now, I'm not making the statement that 100% is true, but I'm kind of just trying to connect some dots here as to what we have seen over the years, and that's when one person does one thing wrong. Now, granted, yes, some of these things are very, very high level wrong and I think, objectively, our truths that we all hold or things that we should not say or do, but just kind of again connecting some dots here as to what we might give a definition to or explanation to, is that, yeah, a lot of these old trains of thought.

Instead of just keeping what works and evolving, contributing to the evolution of what we want to come next, we're just getting rid of it all, we're burning it all down and rebuilding entirely instead of just modifying, and so to that I wanna come back and ask a question you mentioned earlier as well tradition, traditional masculinity and I also wanna make the quick caveat I believe here, dean, you and I were talking about masculine and feminine in the terms of energetic forces. We're not talking about gender per se, but the traditional kind of outline of masculinity and femininity that you and I align with With tradition. Is this something that we really should be keeping, because there is so much good and so much in there that we should still be aligning with in terms of the modern masculine, or do we just need to update it? Should we be keeping this and kind of optimizing it, or just burning it down and starting from scratch?

0:11:48 - Speaker 2 I think we hold on to tradition with a just in general. I think we hold on to tradition with a kind of a lack of logic for a lot of reasons. I think we hold on to things that we know.

0:12:04 - Speaker 1 Just because we've been doing it for so long a certain way. That's just why yeah.

0:12:09 - Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think it's parts of both, because I think we get used to doing things a certain way. People are humans, are we like to know what things are? We like to have our representation of the world, how we picture in our mind. We like to preserve that, whether we are real aware of that or not, we like to have like this is how the world makes sense to me and I'm going to do what I can to make sure that the world stays that way, and even if it's not helpful. So I think it's difficult for us to. It's difficult for anybody to be objective. It's difficult for anybody to be truly objective and to look at things and say, okay, we need to get rid of this because it's not working anymore, because we have some emotional and some subconscious attachment to that.

I think where I think what we're not considering is we are seeing the emergence of so many more different types of people. We're seeing that we are way more diverse than we thought. Think of the LGBTQIA plus community and how many? For how many of those people does the traditional archetype of the masculine man? How does that work for them? How does that make them feel when society says this is what a man should be and they're here saying like well, I'm a man Like, don't I get to have my own standards. So I think that we need. I think it's good to have tradition if it's helpful, I mean it's good to have that tradition if we can look to that. But what I think is really important is that we are moving ever forward. We're moving ever forward to a community where there are many more types of people and the existing idea of what a man is does not work for all of these different people.

0:14:28 - Speaker 1 You. We're talking about these kind of forms of attachments that we definitely have. I think we're probably more aware of some than others. So for that, my question is if you were to look at, in your opinion, the most obvious conscious and subconscious attachments we as modern men might have, what do you think they are? My conscious, I mean, what are the things? Probably you and I, most guys listening right now, most people aligning with the masculine archetype here are really really aware of whether that's just how you were raised, or tradition, or whatever. And what are some of these subconscious attachments that we might not be able to quite put our finger on as to why we hold this truth, but it just kind of is maybe this innate-ness that is part of masculinity.

0:15:29 - Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think that's a really good distinction. So if we think about, if we think about some of the conscious, you know, ideas that we hold on to, those are ones that we've made some effort to, those are things that we've made some effort to understand and to implement right. So those are things like being a strong leader, those are things like being kind, those are things like, you know, the never give up idea and having grit, having determination. And I think the more harmful ones are the subconscious ones. These are the ones that really have hurt men, not just men, but also women. These are the ones that say I have to be strong in order to be loved, I have to be successful in order to be loved, because that's what it really all comes down to.

It comes down to this worthiness of love. You can start somewhere. You can say, like I have to be successful in order to provide for my family. But when you trace that back to well, why do you need to be successful for your family? Well, I need to be able to provide for them. Okay, why do you need to provide for them?

Because I'm a man, it's my job. Why is it your job? Because in order for me to be a good man, that's what I have to do. It's like well, why do you want to be a good man? Because I want to be. I want someone to be proud of me. Why do you want them to be proud of you? Because I want them to love me, right? So if you trace back all of these reasons, ultimately it comes back to I believe this on a subconscious level. And because I believe this, it is saying that in order to be loved, I have to do X. In order to be loved, I have to be Y. And we're going to have those thoughts, no matter what, like all of us are just, we're all just trying to deal with the childhood issues that we had when we developed.

0:17:23 - Speaker 1 Ain't that the truth, my man, ain't that the?

0:17:25 - Speaker 2 truth Right from like. Whatever happened to us between ages three and seven. We're all just trying to spending decades in psych you know psychologists office just trying to get over those issues taking mushrooms to like figure out.

0:17:37 - Speaker 1 I'm laughing, not joking at it, but because of like how freaking true that is, and as a 37 year old guy still unpacking stuff from that age range you're talking about and I know you can relate.

0:17:48 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so like we're going to have those subconscious beliefs that cause us to have this perception that we need to do something in order to be loved. But that doesn't mean that we should not explore those reasons and potentially, hey, like if this was an issue, let's fix this, so like the next generation doesn't have to go with this. And so that's why I think it's important to have these conversations, because we are consciously trying to change these deeply held subconscious beliefs that ultimately make us not love ourselves and not be able to receive love. And ultimately, you know, I think I think the idea of love for men is like an icky word, like I'm talking about this now and I feel uncomfortable. Like one of the reasons I, you know, I do things that I do is because I like to do things that make me uncomfortable, because I know that there is growth opportunities there. So for me to be, you know, on a podcast and to say, like the word love, like it feels icky, like it just it doesn't feel good to me.

And that's because, like I have this subconscious belief that strong men do not express love. They just do what needs to get done. They don't complain, they're strong, they're capable, they make money, they look jacked and then they come home and they're just like rocks for their family. But they don't need to have emotions, they don't need to express love Like. The most they need to do is like good job, right, just like a nod of approval, right, there doesn't need to be like a. So I think that when we think about, like the traditional male, the, the, the one that we hold subconsciously, that's that's what we need to be able to access, not the one that we come up with through like thought and experience, through active thought, but the one that just kind of gets inside of us without us really having any say on whether or not that's what we believe.

0:19:56 - Speaker 1 Beautiful explanation. Thank you so much. And before I kind of jump into you begin to hint on how we can actually remedy these things and how can we change here and now. But also talking about the next generation of men, the next generation of masculinity, and especially that ickiness you're talking about, I think a lot of guys are there and it doesn't seem to really make sense when we talk about masculinity and nonsexual intimacy, masculinity and love. But we'll get there. We'll get there, but before we do, I was bringing up some notes from a book that I have. I read years and years and years ago and was the first, I will say, self help book I ever read. And it just so happens to be heavily focused on masculinity. And I'm curious are you familiar with King warrior, magician lover?

No, but I will add it to my my read list this when I first got hooked on, you know, social media and watching YouTube, especially fitness YouTube back in the day, I was a big Elliot Hulse junkie. Okay, I haven't really watched a lot of stuff in a long time. You know who I'm talking about, right, yo, elliot?

0:21:07 - Speaker 2 I have a good story, if you want to tell that really quickly, elliot. Actually, elliot invited me to his gym to record yoga videos in 2014. He loved yoga at this time and he found me on YouTube. Is like, dude, you should come down and record some yoga videos. And I responded like cool, let's do it. And then I followed that up with can you pay for my flight? I'm going to be at ultra music festival and I need to change my flight that weekend. And he responded he's like no, just no, we're not doing this anymore.

So like that, that's my Elliot Hulse story.

0:21:42 - Speaker 1 I love how yoga, Elliot Hulse and ultra music festival were all in the same sentence. That that is the. That is the new modern masculinity I'm talking about.

0:21:54 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so that's a. That's a great story of how I messed up a potential, a very, very helpful relationship.

0:22:02 - Speaker 1 Well, you know, we're talking right around the kind of the same time this, actually, when I first discovered Elliot, I think it was probably maybe 2010, 2011. And I picked up this book that he always referenced King warrior, magician, lover rediscovering the archetypes of the mature masculine. Now I do. Before we move on, I want to kind of go to a place where I feel like tradition still does hold a lot of value. I feel like tradition, whether we're talking about definitions, belief systems, rituals, practices, there is a reason and a place, a time and a place for rituals in the human experience. And I want to say why is? Because humans are nothing without rituals. This is exactly how we have evolved and progressed, you know, as as a society, religions, community, culture, love, coming of age. There are innate rituals and pretty much every human civilization, and I do want to lean into I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, dean, and I do agree in general that the traditional male archetype, the traditional definition and version and representation of masculinity, man it's due for a facelift, but that doesn't mean, like we said earlier, we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I do want to lean into tradition a little bit more here because I feel like when we carve out the masculine self, the masculine energy and kind of just what happens in the masculine experience, these four archetypes of King warrior, magician, lover I feel still hold a lot of worth, a lot of value.

I'm not saying these are now the only ones, but for me they they hold a lot of weight. And you know we're talking about King warrior, magician, lover, what it means to have the energy of being just and creative, the energy of aggressive but nonviolent action, the energy of initiation and transformation. And finally, lover, the energy that connects one to others and the world. And I want to lean into the keyword here being energy. This is not a pure alignment with. This is not being defined as a man or defining masculinity as one of these quadrants. This isn't you are one or the other. This is kind of the spectrum of the energy that it takes and the energy and how it shows up in masculinity. When I say those four out loud, dean, do you feel in alignment with those? Do you feel like, in general, modern masculinity has a lot to learn from these four energies, these energetic expressions of King warrior, magician, lover?

0:24:52 - Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like I mean to give the short answer yes, I think they definitely do. I mean I don't I get, I haven't read the book so I can't comment on it too much. But you know, I think we tend to, I think the I think a big problem is we tend to, we tend to evaluate our worth as a man and how much masculinity we can do, versus like, oh, I'm going to do everything that I can. That's masculine and I don't want to do anything that's on the feminine side, because that makes me less of a man.

And without tradition we don't have a. Just going back to what you said about tradition, without any sense of tradition we don't have a blueprint Like tradition gives us, like this is the found, this is the foundation, this is the understanding. A good example I have is I have a friend of mine, best friend, that that's here in Austin with me and he is very religious, like very strong convictions as a Christian. I am not a practicing Christian, practicing Christian, so I don't have like the same foundation of of, of kind of practices that he has with his wife. So the benefit of having that is that he has these, this foundation of practices, from which, upon that, from upon what she can draw to take actions and to, to, you know, to have like a kind of a guiding sense of okay, this is what exactly could you?

0:26:27 - Speaker 1 could you give the listener some examples? Are we talking about? Just you know, core beliefs, core values, kind of just inherent attributes of the religion that he pulls from to carry over into him being a man. Is that we're talking about?

0:26:38 - Speaker 2 I hear we're talking about here.

We're talking about the idea of tradition, giving us a blueprint on how to act, and his as a man, in the relationship with his tradition of you know, with his traditional upbringing in Christianity, he is ultimately the final arbiter of okay, this is what we're going to do.

I'm going to lead as a man and gotcha and me I am not my wife and I we are not practicing Christians. So we don't have this blueprint, we don't have this tradition that we can draw upon that dictates our actions. So he has this guide that he can use to help him take, make decisions and take action. We don't have this base, so we don't have this thing that we can consult to say, like so, which means we have to do like a ton of extra work to make that decision because we don't have, like, we don't have a guide, we don't have guidelines that we can use. So the huge benefit of tradition is that it actually it gives you a set of guidelines that you can use to to make decisions and take action. So you know, just just touching on the touching on the tradition part. I think that was important, but I didn't answer your.

0:27:59 - Speaker 1 I couldn't answer your question because I it's in there, you know.

I think what I'm hearing you say is really, you know, this book, these four archetypes is comparatively like a lot of resources, a lot of traditions of you know religion. You know, someone might not have read this book but many people come from religious upbringings. With that, that infrastructure, that core kind of foundation of values and even archetypes. That may not be exactly how they want to be, but it is a referral, if you will. It is a starting point to kind of gauge what maybe hits home closest for you and what maybe aligns with you and what you want to introduce and keep and, you know, further facilitate in your life, but also as maybe a resource of yes, no, maybe. So you know I'm going to keep some of these things but you know, adopt my own versus like what I'm hearing. You say you didn't have, don't have that and you're just, like you know, building as you go. You know you're driving out of the plane and constructing your parachute as you go down and said maybe somebody's starting with you know a lot more out of the gate.

0:29:07 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's a. Yeah, I think that's a good summary and create some sense to some of what I said. That might not have made sense, so thank you, no, I'll get all good.

0:29:17 - Speaker 1 One other thing that comes to mind that I'm so glad that you brought up, you know, in example of your friend here. But still, I think religion does hold a lot of weight for a lot of how the modern masculine is upheld. And I'll say, speaking personally, growing up in a pretty religious household, growing up Southern Baptist Christian, I was baptized Episcopalian, grew up a little bit in Catholicism before my dad and stepmom kind of landed on Southern baptism, which is how I grew up, probably the majority of my life, up until like 18 when I left home, 17. And to your earlier point of how much now as humans but definitely men we're trying to step into an own and decipher and decode this masculinity aspect of our lives.

A lot of that I had with me and a lot of that I had with me. I mean, this is what a man is supposed to do. The man ultimately is the head of the household and you know the man says yes to these things and a man says no to these things. I should say a good man, a moral man, a godly man, because that was not it's not what I'm saying here, but that's what was kind of conveyed to me my understanding of scripture and what the pastor was saying you know every Sunday. But now in my mid to late 30s really kind of started in my mid 30s, a lot of that. I began to question A lot of that, I began to begin to unpack and I began to really really build my own. So I'm curious with you I guess I should ask this first question Do you have any kind of background in a religion where you brought up in any particular way?

0:31:07 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so I was. Yes, so I was. I was baptized. I went to church until I was, I think, 15. I was actually in the church choir for for many years and then I, I think one Sunday morning I just was like, no, I'm not going.

0:31:25 - Speaker 1 And my mom, you know, what was the domination Do you recall? Oh, presbyterian, yeah, presbyterian, okay, okay, so I'm sure a lot of what I'm talking about you would be familiar with. Yeah, in what ways? Maybe you can speak personally if you want, or in generalities here in what ways do you think having a religious foundation of masculinity serves the modern man, and in which ways is it a disservice? In which ways are we getting a head start and these practices and rituals and identities maybe, objectively, we'll say, are good, and in which ways are they really consciously or subconsciously holding us, holding the modern man, to a standard that might not be the standard in actuality these days and or might not be the standard that that masculinity type, that that man wants to continue on with?

0:32:25 - Speaker 2 Well, I think that all ideologies, like a sense of what is right and wrong, is based ultimately on some form of religion. Originally that's like that was the system of thought right, unless we look at stoicism. So now I'm contradicting myself, but the point is a lot of what our modern understandings of what is right and wrong is based on religion. So, again, religion provides us with a lot of the basis, for this is how we should act and this is how we should not act. I think the I think the one of the big problems with religion is, I think, and I think, unless you really go deep enough into the into religion to the point that you understand that there are reasons for what we preach in this religion, you just you don't, we're not accepting them, just because this is what it is. I think, when religion is just accepted and the message is like if you don't do this, god doesn't love you, then you know.

0:33:41 - Speaker 1 I think, most people who are serious I heard that a lot growing up in the Southern Baptist Church.

0:33:47 - Speaker 2 So there you go. So that's, that's a thing, and I think that we forget that, ultimately, religion I mean religion is traditional, right, like we. How much has religion evolved over the last however many centuries relative to the evolution of everything else? Like, religion is a slow evolving thing, and I lost my train of thought. But, but religion is a very slow evolving thing. It does not change as quickly as other social institutions, and when the message attached to it is like you have to do this or you know you're going to hell, like hey, well, you've scared me into doing something.

So, while religion is also like this sense of OK, this is what is right and this is wrong, Religion is also supposed to be. This is how you connect with the divine, this is how you connect with universe, this is how you connect with universal oneness and what I'm, you know, my big disillusionment with religion was that it was just, it wasn't doing what it was supposed to. For me, it wasn't creating the sense of oneness of spirit. It was this is what you do. These are things that you do, these are things that you don't do, but it was. It was like it was like a rule book. It wasn't like you know.

0:35:15 - Speaker 1 So it was more restrictive than being set free, which, again, my experience with religion, true religion and connecting to the divine, connecting to source, connecting to God is supposed to liberate you and set you free from the pains of this human experience. I wouldn't say set you free, but, from you know, develop a better relation to an understanding of what pain and suffering is and you know, put trust and faith in a higher power and you know to really pull yourself out of your own way to, to your point, really to connect with, with everyone and everything else, and to have this greater sense of knowing that you are love and you are loved.

0:35:57 - Speaker 2 Yeah, and that was something that it wasn't, it wasn't talked about. So, yeah, you're going to have to forgive me because I am currently a newborn father.

0:36:12 - Speaker 1 I have a.

0:36:13 - Speaker 2 I have a one month old. I wake up three times per night, so I often lose my train of thought.

0:36:19 - Speaker 1 We'll have to get you to double dip next time in the ketone IQ.

0:36:23 - Speaker 2 So if you're listening to this and you're like this dude doesn't know what he's talking about. Just give me some patience, so it's difficult.

0:36:30 - Speaker 1 I'll say, you know, speaking of religion, you know grace here for sure, dean, you know it's difficult to come up. I think unpack masculinity while also unpacking religion. They're very, very broad topics and, again, depending on the personal experience, we're not here just talking about two topics where we're two guys coming from this background who are talking about and you know, having probably this flood of memories and emotions and experiences and trying to, even now probably, I'm assuming here makes sense of a lot of things while also give an explanation and an answer. So nothing but grace here, my man. I hear that in what you're talking about.

0:37:10 - Speaker 2 Yeah.

0:37:11 - Speaker 1 But to kind of shift from you know religion, because I do want to get into a couple of the key things that you brought up that I think are super important when we're unpacking masculinity.

The, the intimacy involved in masculinity, I think, is something that is greatly overlooked, and I'll tell you my identity as a man and my barometer of where my masculinity is has never been more solidified and has never been higher than when I am my most vulnerable, my most open, my most intimate with other men in my life that I hold in high regard, that I have a deep, meaningful relationship with, or I'm in process of building that. And I feel like you know when you know, you know when you're in that experience, or else you wouldn't be opening up in ways that you are. Why do you think person foremost most guys are. Or you know, when we're looking at the definition of modern masculinity here, that isn't even on their radar. Intimacy, love isn't even in there. And secondly, how do you go about, or how do you think is a good way to go about us introducing intimacy of this non sexual intimacy in such this rigid container? Typically, that is, the masculine.

0:38:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's a really simple answer, but it just love intimacy, connection. It's just not. It's not cool, right? It's not. Like when we think about being a man and we think about being our ideal man, we think about being a hero, we think about rushing into a burning we think about, we think about being strong, we think about being competitive and being better than the next guy we don't think about. You know, I had this really amazing conversation with my friend and like we had this really beautiful moment together. There's also, you know, as a society, we are subconsciously, we're subconsciously, you know, whether or not we like it, and for many people, consciously, we are homophobic. So like connecting with other men is like I don't want to connect with other men because I don't want to be seen as gay.

0:39:49 - Speaker 1 We don't want to be seen as exact. I was going to say it has a lot less to do of what we actually believe to be true, but what we believe perceived truths could be Right and, you know, think of like.

0:40:00 - Speaker 2 I just think I went to a pretty progressive high school. But you know I can think of plenty of times in high school when I was like, oh, like Dean did this, he's so gay. And I was like I'm not gay.

You know like, so like you're when you're like a 15 year old or 16 year old, and you're like, you're trying to, you're trying to assert yourself as cool, you know like, and people are, you know, calling you, calling you gay because of like, you know like whatever, it doesn't feel good. So you know there's not only are we not, not only are we is connection, love, intimacy. It's not like what we think of when we think of the ideal man, but also there's a lot of, there's a, there is as a, as a culture. We are homophobic and so, like we don't want to do anything that could be perceived as gay. So that's, that's the first part of the question. Remind me the second part of the question.

0:41:05 - Speaker 1 I think you kind of answered the second part first, but from a calling correct correctly and I don't know why I brain farted as well here. It was yeah, why is? Why is this, you know, form of intimacy in the modern definition of masculinity, the modern experience? Why, in many instances, is it not even kind of expressed, or not even on the table? And then, oh yeah, it's not.

0:41:31 - Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's not cool. It's not like it's not what we think of an, of an ideal man, or like the most masculine man or the man that we want to be. For most of us, it's like the subconscious, are subconscious belief of what a man should be is not like being intimate, being expressive, connecting with other men. And there's also the, the, just the, the blatant reality that we as a culture are homophobic and it's getting better, but like we're still have. You know, I mean 12 years ago or even 10 years ago, or definitely 15 years ago, like you know, people still said f a g and it was just like just a word, you're an idiot, you're an f a g, right, and now you're like hold up.

0:42:12 - Speaker 1 If you said that, now like good luck, like you're not coming back from that things that came out of my mouth 10 to 15 years ago out of just pure ignorance, honestly, I mean, and I think a lot of us can relate to doing and saying things just out of the sake of going with the flow and trying to fit in, and I wholeheartedly can say that was the case.

0:42:36 - Speaker 2 So, so, so conscious. We have made improvements, but subconsciously, a lot of those thoughts that we had and we were like kids, like they're still there. And you know, I hope that the next generation doesn't have those because as slowly as subconscious stays subconscious right and does get transferred to the conscious. Hopefully, like that, that's eliminated. But then the second part of the answer is how do we start to do more of that? And the answer is you just start doing it.

You start you know, you talked about this in the episode that I had with you but instead of having conversations about things that have no meaning, why don't you, why don't you have a conversation like start the topic, like introduce something, like that's actually hey, this is something that I really want to talk about, this is something that I'm actually feeling, this is something that I'm struggling with.

Like, instead of going to you know, hang out with your friend and saying, man, my business is crushing it, we're doing this, this, this. Oh, I got to hook you up with my friend, bill, he does this, you know say like, hey, man, like I'm really struggling right now, like we just had a baby, you know my wife is doing this, or like you know, that's just my situation right now. Or like you know you, if we make it more general, you could say like hey man, I'm like I'm really struggling with balancing work and also like trying to be a good dad and like trying to be a good you know. So if you can start initiating those types of conversations instead of, you know, just talking about BS, like I don't even, I don't even watch sports anymore because it's I just I don't know, I watch sports if it's on and if it's like a good game, but like I don't watch sports so that I can come to my friends.

0:44:29 - Speaker 1 So you can feel your man Exactly, yeah, like.

0:44:32 - Speaker 2 I don't need, I don't want to, I don't want to have conversations about that. You know, I want to have like real conversations. So the easiest way to start doing that is to start having conversations that lean into into this. And I think you know a lot of what I do. A lot of the content that create is rooted in the understanding that if I have, if that is me, or like if this, if this is true to me, then it's true to millions of other men. Right, I'm not special, so like that's, that's a guiding principle for a lot of and a lot of what I do. And you know I've been in therapy since 2018, I think and I look at it, and I look at it as just like this is like my weekly, my weekly mental workout. You know my, my weekly mental and emotional workout.

And you know I asked him a few months ago. I was like what's, like what's wrong with me, man, just like I know you're not supposed to, I know you're not supposed to tell me, but like what's wrong? He's like well, it's, it's, it's not a secret. You, you want, you need more. You need more intimacy with men. You need to hang out with men more. You need to actually connect with men.

0:45:42 - Speaker 1 This was feedback from your therapist. This isn't just you postulating, but wow, wow.

0:45:47 - Speaker 2 No, yeah, this is like it's that it's you need to have, like you need to have a greater range of it. That was, that was the one thing. I don't need to talk about everything here, but like that, that's my experience. Then, like that's probably the experience of millions of other men, and I think it's because of those reasons before that I mentioned, that we just don't have, we just aren't having those connections with men. And there's other reasons too that that are just kind of the reality of men getting married and having kids.

We have less time to hang out with other men, right? Or? Or like we talked about, it's it's seen as like it's getting away from your wife, it's getting away from your relationship. It's it's like, hey, I want to go hang out with the bros, but it's taken as, oh, you don't like me, you know, you want to get away from me, you want to get away from me. And then so you, in response, you're like, well, I'm not going to ask, I'm just not going to go do that, and so you lack this entire you know, aspect of your wellness from your life because you're trying to appease the people who you live with.

0:46:55 - Speaker 1 So I love everything you just said. Thank you so much for opening up and sharing all of that.

0:47:00 - Speaker 2 Picture a lot of me to rant.

0:47:02 - Speaker 1 Yeah, no, of course, man, it all makes sense here and yeah, if you guys want to hear more about that, that's honestly. I was thinking about our conversation recently on your show and I'll make sure to link it for everybody down on the show notes. That probably was one of my biggest takeaways that had me just going, hmm, a little bit longer. Why is it that we feel this need to escape our current situation, whether that's with ourselves or with a partnership, to go be with other men Instead?

Why can't it be a practice of healthy communication with and to ourselves, with and to our partner as to why we want to go there and how it is actually adding value and why we need that, instead of escaping something? We should never be running from something and hoping or feeling that what we're escaping to is going to magically solve the problem because we have to go back there. You know, unless you just never come home one day, I guess that's fine. You just stay at Buffalo Wild Wings for the rest of your life watching the game and drinking beer, you know, but I think that's crucial for guys to pick up on.

And before we kind of get into, I want to get to one final section here. Before we wrap up the show, I want to just kind of drive home what you're talking about three kind of practices that I have that come to mind, about how I feel I am inviting more of this change in masculinity in my life and how I'm inviting in energetically other guys that are there now or are looking for maybe a little signal that this could be something, this can be an intimate male relationship, this could be something that could fill us both up in our modern manly hood. So three things that I kind of do to fill my modern masculinity cup is one I've shifted away from handshakes. Now. Part of this is just kind of getting away from the East Coast and you know Southern California, la it's. You know we're more huggy, huggy friendly in general. But I found kind of when you meet a new guy or meet a new person, it's just so hey, how's it going? All right, cool, cool, put it there kind of thing. It's so traditional and not a way that I like anymore. So I go straight for the hug and I think for a lot of guys that catches them off guard. It's oh, oh cool, we're hugging. Like some people actually say that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're hugging. And you know, I think that immediately breaks down that wall of hey, another man can touch you, can hug you, can embrace you, and it's just that. It's I see you, brother, and I hope that you see me. Another is that I have in the right situation.

Of course, you know I don't throw around the word love lightly, but I do feel like I have love for a lot of people. It's different than when I tell my wife I love you, but getting into a practice of telling other men love you, bro, love you, hey, man, really love hanging out with you. Just incorporating the word love more in our interactions, whether that's a hello or a sign off, whatever, has been a unique practice as well, because you know there are a few guys in my life where I kind of take note when the first time that I say that, like all right, man, see you later, love you, they just don't know what to do. They're like yeah, like what do you mean? You love me? They don't say anything, but it throws them off and then now over time they're saying it back to me and you know, I feel like I'm hoping. I don't know, maybe I'll ask them some some time but I feel like they've been kind of maybe more put into a position of receiving that love and getting deconditioned to what that means. When someone says it, why can't a guy tell another guy that he loves him and has love for him? And so now, like they're kind of coming around and like, oh yeah, man, I love you too. All right, later, love you guys. See you just incorporating it somehow some way. I think is another way. We're kind of evolving the tradition.

Yeah, and I had a third. I'm trying to think exactly, I think we're both running out of steam here. But the third, oh yeah, the, the meaningful small talk, was another big one. You know, we kind of hit on it, so kind of shifting the narrative of going from you know, hey, what's up, bro? You know, hey, did you catch the game? Or hey, how's it going, man?

And immediately leaning into that that more masculine response of I am. You know, I am man, hear me, war, kind of thing. Here are all my successes, here's what I'm doing in business, here's what I'm killing in the gym, blah, blah, blah. Actually sharing something more vulnerable, actually going shit, like I had this blow up this morning with my wife and you know blah, blah, blah or you know general things are pretty going pretty well but man, like last week lost like two clients and things got pretty gnarly financially. You know, just immediately sharing something to my comfort level of vulnerability, instead of just it's good. I'll never say yeah, the game was great because I don't watch sports. But you know, just kind of shifting the conversation immediately to something more vulnerable, from something more traditional and kind of leaning into the softness, the softer side of masculinity really.

Yeah, yeah, I think those are all great, no question there, just kind of sharing some thoughts from what you were saying. But that does kind of lead me into the question I have before the final question.

0:52:18 - Speaker 2 Oh, hey, really quick. So like you know something that I think traditional masculinity and I think more traditional upbringing do get right. There are a lot of opportunities for men to get together right Like you think about, like your traditional yeah yeah, right, you think about your traditional guy.

He's like you know, like what are you doing this week? And like I'm going hunting? Right, I'm going hunting with the, with the bros. Like I'm going out and it's bro, is bro time? Like we've got like our fantasy football draft thing and we're all going to St Louis for the weekend. Like I have a friend who does that and that's, that's something that you know is missing from from my life. Like I don't have those. You know, I don't have a lot of those times because I'm like, in a lot of ways I have subconsciously gone in the other direction where I'm like, oh, I don't do those things because that's like so traditional and so like outdated or like no, I'm actually here for my wife, I'm not going to leave her alone with the kids you know, but so I think that men who do get together with other men and do have like that, that more, that I think that is a more traditional thing, but I think that they're better off for it.

0:53:32 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and that kind of makes me think that might not be our thing right here. That might not be our thing of. I don't hunt, I don't watch sports, I don't go to sports, I don't you know insert typical reason for men getting together here. But what if you just said yes anyway and you saw it as an opportunity to kind of be this undercover agent for vulnerability? What if this was your opportunity to, to to ninja in, to stealth in some opportunities?

to change this experience, to change tradition, even just in your small group here, your couple of bros, whatever your community, you know, showing them that you can be present and showing them that that you can be reliable and carve out time for them, I think absolutely is a great starting place. And then it's up to you. Here's your responsibility, here is your, your, your new order, so to speak to. So, once you're in there and those experiences change things up, you know, here's your opportunity to share, like what I was talking about. You know, instead of handshaking, every time you guys meet at the bar, give them a hug, you know, like, hey guys, I loved doing this event with you. I got a lot of love for you, love, you see you next time. Just, you know, begin to kind of plant those seeds. And you know you have the opportunity here and you'll never know if you can change those experiences or not unless you don't try.

0:54:47 - Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not even so much that it's like a masculine activity, it's just the fact that you guys are getting together on a regular basis, like it can be hiking. You could, guys. You guys could go to the Zilcher Park together, which is like a you know big park which is great yeah. Right so, but I think that you know that masculine time together is important and it could help us out a lot.

0:55:11 - Speaker 1 You know and I think that kind of brings us perfectly into what I wanted to talk about to wrap up this whole episode here being aware of things here and now, in this generation, is absolutely step one. Awareness is the first step in anything and everything that we want to to maintain in a healthy way, but also that we want to change. What, then, is our best approach? What is our best hope for rewriting this masculinity narrative of bringing more awareness to men here and now, not only to change our experience, but for the next generation?

0:55:53 - Speaker 2 I mean, there has to be conscious thought on what that model looks like and there has to be conscious thought on implementing the actions that are not done subconsciously, that we're making decisions to, that we're making decisions to be our ideal version of what we think is a more complete version of masculinity, and implementing that into our actions on a daily basis. But I think that in order for that to happen, there does have to be conscious thinking, like you have to actually sit down and think about this like what does this look like? Like how are my day-to-day actions going to be different if I want to create this different version of masculinity? I think there's. I had Nate Checkitz, who's the founder of Roan. It's a real. Actually, I'm wearing them right now. I see you're wearing them right now. Yeah, yeah, awesome company Love them.

0:57:00 - Speaker 1 he's been on the show as well. We aligned pretty quickly because they're messaging their mantra is forever forward. So there you go.

0:57:08 - Speaker 2 Just a bunch of forward arrows together.

So he got on and he talked about I think he had a little, I think he had a really stronger motivation than I did maybe then you do to put forth a different, put forth a representation of what is an ideal man.

Because he has a son, he has sons, he's got like five kids I don't know if it's five, but he's got a lot of sons. But the point is he actually his kids are looking to him in this world where we're hearing about toxic masculinity, and so the question is like well, what does strong, positive masculinity look like? And again, I think the only way to do that is to think about okay, what was good, what was bad, what are some actions that are, what are some actions that are legitimately, what are some actions that legitimately fall into the category of toxic masculinity and what are some actions that don't fall into that and we shouldn't get rid of that. So I think there's a lot to consider, but ultimately I think there has to be thoughts. That goes into thinking about what does this look like and how am I going to implement this?

0:58:33 - Speaker 1 Dean, it's been great having you back on the show.

Man, this has been a topic, a concept I've been wanting to unpack personally for a long time, and so I thank you for being very open and your answers and your experiences, and my hope for this episode is to help me continue to think on the traditional part of masculinity that aligns with me and what parts don't, and being able to have the awareness and the thought to your point of what I want to add and the type of man that I want to be and the type of man that I want to set an example for for my future kids, my family, and the types of men that I also want to attract into my world and also be on the lookout for, so that they can continue to teach me, mentor me and in every way that we've been talking about.

And so I wanna ask one final question man, living a life ever forward, maybe through the lens of what we're talking about here and better understanding and better creating a better man what does that mean to you here today, 2023,? How do you live a life ever forward? How would you define that?

0:59:50 - Speaker 2 I think ever forward means continuing to grow in new ways, recognizing the changing world around you, recognizing that things that didn't, that used to work will not work today or tomorrow, might not necessarily work today or tomorrow, and that we need to continually adapt in order to move forward. I think also part of that is holding on to holding on to some sort of foundation of your values, and I think that you need to get clear on what those values are, not as somebody else tells you what they are, but what your personal values are. So being able to have that strong foundation of yourself and then being able to move forward with that foundation of yourself, based on best practices, based on the reality of a changing world, based on who you want to be as a person, but preserving the foundation, but always moving forward, adapting as necessary.

1:00:57 - Speaker 1 There's never a right or a wrong answer. I always appreciate my guest's interpretation after our conversation. So thanks my man, dean. Where can everybody go to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing in the world? These days?

1:01:09 - Speaker 2 I'm on all the social medias man, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. I have an awesome free seven day beginner's yoga from men challenge that you can do for free at manfullyogacom slash seven DC. I've got a blog manfullyogacom slash blog, and if you like podcast, I have the better man podcast, which is where you can tune in to hear me discuss a lot of the ideas that Chase and I were discussing today.

1:01:37 - Speaker 1 And I'll say from personal experience as a guest on your show phenomenal podcast and as a user of your amazing yoga mat incredible mat. Incorporating yoga into my life, but also as a form of exercise over the years has always, always benefited me. Especially when I do it, like before a big lift day, I typically get a PR. I'm just way more loose and limber and amazing, more amazing in the lifts. So in support of my main form of exercise, it's incredible the last two years been making it more of a regular thing. Trying to get into sessions a week has just helped immensely in my physical health. But also I feel like my stress is way lower. Connecting with cooler, different types of people the guys that you meet in the gym deadlifting and also the guys you meet in the gym doing yoga. They might be one of the same. My goal is to have that be the community. I would love a guy that can sit in pigeon just as long as he can hit the deadlifts, but the different dynamics are great. So getting into more of a yoga practice has opened my eyes up to more different people and community and different types of men for sure. But that's kind of the balanced man that I'm after. But also your mats are incredible. I've used them in studio outside, so you guys might check them out and make sure to link them down the show notes. Thank you, yeah.