EFR 695: Why Relationships Are Outdated, How to Improve Communication Skills & Foreplay Secrets That Will Level Up Your Intimacy Today with Mac Cazeau

Speaker 1:Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to ever Ford Radio. Now, if you are new to the show, you don't know what I'm talking about, but for anybody that's been listening for a while, you know that for years I would have my wife on the show every month. And we would talk about relationship, health, the relationship in a partnership, intimate relationships, friendships, relationship with yourself. May's gone, Mack is in the house. We're gonna be diving into relationships in a really cool, unique way, man, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:Thank you, chase. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here with you, man. Yeah.

Speaker 1:Um, I mean, that word, our word relationship is something that some people hear and really cringe. Some people hear and get afraid, some people hear and really like, ah, you know, like, really connect to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, how would you define that word? How do, how would you define the relationship and where do you think most people definition lands when they think of relationship and really meaningful relationships?

Speaker 2:Interesting. So, I personally think that the term relationship is outdated. And I think it, no, I was

Speaker 1:Not expecting that answer. <laugh>,

Speaker 2:You learned that a lot with me. Right? I, I also think that it, no, it no longer fits the norm of society currently. Mm-hmm. So I'm more of a fan of partnership, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because partnership needs tends to be a collaboration and an agreement that can be up updated mm-hmm. <affirmative> when certain things shifts, while a relationship has this conditional, traditional view that does not apply to a number of people now, nowadays, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the term relationships tend to be divisive due to the expectations that were never discussed, but just expected versus a partnership, which is more like a communicated collaboration and and agreement that is said between the people involved.

Speaker 1:You know, I kind of feel like your answer is what needs to be applied to most things in life right now. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so many things are outdated, and that could be a real big tangent, but, you know, you really immediately got me thinking differently about relationships and because if we're gonna agree that we're gonna define or even think about two people, or even just, you know, like I said, the relationship with ourself, but, you know, friendships, coworkers, intimate relationships, if we're gonna radically change the way we think about it and define it, that is going to result in radical change in how we interact in that experience. Um, I think we could use that in so many other areas of our life right now for I know a lot of the change that you and I both are after.

Speaker 2:Correct. And hopefully that will lower the divorce rate as well as the number of unhealthy and toxic relationships that currently exist, because that model, it's not working.

Speaker 1:Yeah. I gotta ask right away. As toxic relationship, this is something that I think, I don't know if it's like a hot word, trendy word, but, you know, it's very real. Uhhuh <affirmative>. I really can't relate to it that much because I honestly don't think I've ever been in a toxic mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that could just be me being the toxic one, <laugh> denying it <laugh>. Um, but, you know, what does that mean and, and how do we know we're in a toxic relationship?

Speaker 2:So the, the, the term toxic, i, I, I feel like is, was one of those words that have been overly used mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is why every time I said I put it in, in quotations, uhhuh, <affirmative>, cuz it's very subjective. Right. But in reality, what encompasses clin clinically of a toxic relationship is one, when you are with a partner that is manipulative men, minimizing your experiences, gaslighting, you may even throw in, um, intimate partner vi violence out there. And if we're gonna go further, we, it also applies to narcissistic based relationships. But the, your gen, your general relationship with regular difficulties, to me does not qualify as a toxic relationship.

Speaker 1:Okay. Follow up to that, I think my understanding would agree mostly with the manipulation part. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how do we know if we're being manipulated in a relationship?

Speaker 2:Hmm. Excellent question. Right? <laugh>.

Speaker 2:So you see, um, d we tend to try to decipher what's a standard relationship problem and versus what we might define as a toxic or abusive relational issue. Right. Okay. So to me, the manipulation is when you are even questioning your own reality, you're even asking, hold on, how did this get back to me? Like, I was voicing what was not working for me? Now it's my fault is when you feeling like you're walking on eggshells, you fear the response that your partner may have, and you find yourself trying to shrink yourself into this ideal perfection that this person is seeking and abandoning a number of facets of yourself that you actually enjoyed.

Speaker 1:Is there a way out or is there a way through being in a manipulative relationship? Uh, I guess let, let's say maybe someone is really like, yes. Oh my god, right now, yes, Mac, this is me. Um, I want to not be manipulated. I want to work through this instead of getting out of the relationship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is there a way to, to have that happen? Like, how do we voice our concerns and navigate someone who is manipulating us if we wanna at least give it, you know, we want this to work Yeah. Or wanna at least know that we tried to make it work.

Speaker 2:Yeah. So, so on average couples wait six years too late, both for going to couple's therapist, six

Speaker 1:Years.

Speaker 2:Six years too late, right. <laugh> Wow. So I would say play offense and instead of playing, playing, playing defense mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a couple's therapists, I'm used to couples on the brink of divorce be like, therapy is the final step. Yeah. And just hoping a, a miracle happens. Right? But in reality, if you're experiencing difficulties in your relationship, you seek, you should seek out help as quickly as possible. Now, um, when we're learning how to communicate and how to validate each other mm-hmm. <affirmative> how to be better the listeners, then that's where we can create the skills, the mindsets, and the behaviors needed to function in a healthy relationship. And it, and therapy can also serve as a mirror for the relationship when you're seeing that, oh, I've been, I, I've been manipulated to believe this and my partner's not willing to change and they're not willing to work with me. So maybe it's time to take a second look at whether or not I want to be here.

Speaker 1:What about on the other side of the coin? What if, let's say you've got two people here on the couch, maybe like you do mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in your business. Um, and one person's presenting is, I'm feeling manipulated and I wanna work through it. And the other person is whether they wholeheartedly agree with it, they're at least recognizing this is how the other person feels. I don't want them to feel that way, but I don't quite yet understand how, or even why I am manipulating them or giving off this perception that they are being manipulated. How can the manipulate tour navigate getting out of manipulation?

Speaker 2:That's an excellent question, man. When it comes to conflict, it's not about agreement. Mm. It's about understanding. Right. So you and I can have a similar experience mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but we have two different perspectives from it. So your reality is subjective and that's true to you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you feel like I offended you about what I did, we cannot debate that because you still feel offended. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So I must val validate that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then you can then explain to me from your perspective as to why you felt this way. I can try and understand mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I may not agree, but I can understand. Right. And once you feel understood, then we'll move to problem solving. Mm-hmm. So what is it that I can do to prevent you from feeling this way again? Then you lay out what that looks like and we negotiate mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I'll follow through.

Speaker 1:It's almost like you're a pro at this. That was such a great answer, man.

Speaker 2:I've been doing this for a while. I'm sure

Speaker 1:You've seen this a few times. Oh yeah. Um, okay. So moving from manipulation, uh, you know, so, you know, in toxic relationships, um, what do you feel, or maybe in your professional experience, what have you seen be the most common thing that couples present that relationships, partnerships present with, that they're trying to navigate here and now in 2023 or maybe in the last like couple years, is there a common denominator?

Speaker 2:So my specialty is infidelity recovery and porn addiction. So lately most, most, most out of the clientele that I've been servicing is, is around those, those two things. But under the surface, it all comes down to their ability to communicate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I strongly believe that 99.99999999% of couples do not know how to communicate because it, it, it is a skill.

Speaker 1:Yeah.

Speaker 2:It's a science, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I had to go through a set of trainings to learn how to exactly communicate mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So those that never had those type of exposures or knowledge, they're like, it's, it's beautiful to see two couples saying the same thing, but not even realizing it, but when you can Oh, wow. Yeah. Put words to it. Yeah. And I help them, I identify like, oh, you feel that way too? Yes. We both feel the same way. Yeah. So now we're on, we're on the same team, what do we do about that?

Speaker 1:I love what you just said about two people saying the same thing but not realizing it. Correct. Because they're saying the same thing in terms of meaning and, and probably where they want to go with, you know, action taking to work on the relationship, but for whatever reason it's just falling on deaf ears or, or we're listening or we're not really hearing, you know, um, how can we maybe get there before we're on the couch with you or on the zoom call with you, or whatever that ex or, you know, in therapy in general, um, what is a tool that someone can maybe take and try out at least to really try and hear the other person and see if you are saying the same thing, but you're just missing the Mark A. Little bit. Yeah. Like maybe in, in an argument or just, you know, in everyday life.

Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's two things, right? One is being able to label the emotion and the feeling versus you're selfish, you don't care about me. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:<affirmative>,

Speaker 2:What you're really trying to say is that, hey, lately I've been feeling neglected mm-hmm. <affirmative> and invisible to you. Do you see how we're saying the same thing? But it has a diff a different impact mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when you criticize your partner, it's human nature for them to defend yourself and then for them to c criticize you back. So what I tell my couples is, if I walk up to you and I punched you in your face, what would be the first thing you do? Mac I would punch you back. Correct. You would defend yourself and then attack me back. Yeah. And a lot of conversations, right? Couples are just punching each other in the face verbally.

Speaker 1:Damn. Made that the truth.

Speaker 2:Yeah. 96% of the time, the way you start a conversation is exactly how it's going to end. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when I have a couple reenact their last fight for 10 minutes, I'm only paying attention to the first 30 seconds and the first three minutes that tells me everything I need to know. Interesting about where the conversation is going and how, and how strong or bad their communication skills is really are not the second thing which you're gonna love cuz you're a science guy, <laugh>, right? You are, you are always about the body and the neuroscience. Yeah. Yeah. So once your heart rate surpasses a hundred beats a minute or 80, if you're very fit like yourself, your body and your mind release to stress hormones. Mm. That makes it very difficult for you to even listen and process. So at that time point you enter fight flight, fight flight or freeze mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? So you cannot even process what's being said to you. You're just reacting. Damn. So the key to that is to take a 20, 20 minute break going opposite end of the house and getting a self-care act activity, which allows your heart rate to subside, allow your body to process distress hormones. So you cannot enter a state in which you can actually listen. Wow. And communicate.

Speaker 1:I believe that wholeheartedly mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it kind of makes me reflect back on how I would probably describe how my wife and I, or even before we were married, um, how I feel like we have progressed in conflict resolution, individual growth and individual tactics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, of course are variables here, but really, if I had to say one thing, at least for me, I can't speak for her, it would be I have introduced pauses. Yeah. I have knowingly, there's something that I want to bring up that I think has potential to escalate or to get heated. Um, I think about it first and foremost, that radically changes how I probably in the past would have just off the cuff, you know, shot from the hip, said some stuff, some hurtful things, or just high blood pressure, high heart rate mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, cortisol response, you're not really thinking and just word vomit.

Speaker 1:Introducing this pause, uh, for me that looks like just, you know, taking a breath, just taking a couple deep breaths, long exhalations to get me back to my kind of center, um, has really been kind of the secret sauce. And so it's really cool to hear that, you know, we got the pro who's dropping the science explanation supporting that. So I'm like, cool. I feel validated. <laugh>. Yeah. Um, what are some other tools that you would think best serve the majority of people in partnerships right now? Outside of conflict, conflict resolution, but it's, let's say maybe just general communication.

Speaker 2:Yeah. So the, the two biggest com complaints that women have in, in a relationship is that, um, you're never there. Mm. And there's no emotional connection. Right.

Speaker 1:You're saying, you're saying that women are saying that to their partners. Correct. To us. Typical female or female to male partners. Correct.

Speaker 2:Okay. And the two biggest com complaints that men have is there's too much fighting and not, and not, and not enough sex. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. But in reality, they are both saying the same thing. They're just using diff different words Yeah. To really express how they are feeling. Cuz for men, physical intimacy is our way of, of feeling connected and emotional connection. We feel desired, wanted, appreciated, respected through intimacy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and in a lot of times we may not be able to verbally express how we feel, but we can act it out through our behaviors of being phys physical. But for women, they need the emotional intimacy prior to being physical. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? So tech technically we're just passing each other mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but we're complaining about the same thing. So one of the best ways to address that is to have a de-stress conversation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, as John Gottman put puts it, is that after work you sit down for 20 minutes, you have a listener and a speaker. The speaker speaks for 10 minutes straight about their day, about what's going on in their life, but they're not allowed to talk about the relationship.

Speaker 1:Oh,

Speaker 2:Interesting. That's not the time for you to be criticizing your partner for 10 minutes straight. So you're not allowed to talk about the relationship whatsoever while the listener listens, does not intervene or try to problem solve. You're just listening as a friend would. Right. And then you switch. What that does is allow you to be aware of what's going on in your partner's world, have knowledge about their day, and just feel more connected to them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's also helps you de-stress from the day that you just had and feel emotionally connected. So, and the best and for men, right. I would tell them, just touch them as as as they are talking. Um, have your wife sit on your lap so you can still get that physical mm-hmm. <affirmative> intimacy that you're seeking while the emotional intimacies also take taking place. And what's also interesting is that the better the friendship is, the better is the communication. The more passion, the more intimacy. And that's one of the ways of actually building more friendship is by having less stressful and baseline conversations.

Speaker 1:What about for the guy listening literally right now that has trouble listening, has trouble hearing, has trouble holding? I mean, maybe I can sit here and hold the space, right? I can not be on my phone, I cannot be watching tv, not gonna be doing anything else, but I'm maybe still not fully present. I feel like that's probably the next step, right? Correct. I can be here, but how do I be here? Yeah. How can we go about that?

Speaker 2:So 70% of men tend to problem solve as opposed to just listening.

Speaker 1:Like, I'm listening and trying to like Yeah. Give

Speaker 2:You an answer. Yeah. I wanna give you a solution to, to the, the problem that you're actually sharing. So that's what's important when you're talking to your partner, it's, it's fair to say, Hey, I want you to listen, or I want you to problem solve so this way they know exactly what you're looking for. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our men will spend 2.5 seconds listening before trying to prob problem solve. Why? Wow. Us men were very uncomfortable with emotions. <laugh>, we're comfortable with three happiness, sadness, and anger. Yeah. So the minute our partners start to share a number of emotions that we're uncomfortable with Hmm. In our might as well. Like, okay, how can I solve this so I am not subjected to it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So,

Speaker 1:So we're really just trying to look out for ourselves. Correct. Damn right.

Speaker 2:So at first, like the 20 minute convo is tough, couples are struggling, but after doing, doing, doing it for a while, I've had couples that go 45 minute minutes straight. I scheduled 90 minute session. Hmm. I had a couple that spent the 90 minutes just talking as if I wast there. Wow. It was beautiful to see. Wow. Then after like, um, other 20 minutes over, I'm like, it's been 90 minutes. Is this a

Speaker 1:Billable hour? <laugh>,

Speaker 2:Oh, I'm billing <laugh>.

Speaker 1:Um, how do we know then? I, I think that's a great benchmark, right? If you actually implement something mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and then you not only meet it, but you exceed it. Um, I think that's a great obvious benchmark. But how, before maybe getting into therapy, how can a partnership, how can two people really kind of check in on other benchmarks, other, other markers for success? Or at least to know like we're making progress mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Speaker 2:So the, the bank baseline for any relationship is the friendship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Which is why to me never makes sense when people try to move too quick.

Speaker 1:Right. Okay.

Speaker 2:Yeah. Because you don't know who that person is. So the, the first three years, again, geek geeky facts, which I love, is that your brain plays a big part into how you see your partners. Cuz you are in the, I'm in love with you stage. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you have your blinders on. The dopamine being released is so high that the minute they touch you, you

Speaker 1:Jumped. Yeah. I'm OD'ed.

Speaker 2:Exactly.

Speaker 1:I'm OD'ed then Diaz for dopamine. <laugh>.

Speaker 2:Correct. So now you are generalizing all of the red flags that you're actually seeing. You're making excuses for them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because everything feels great. It's like a brand new car. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but eventually that wears off and that's here 4 56, that's when the dopamine release is not as high. That's where the blinders are really off. Now you're seeing your partner for who they really are.

Speaker 1:Maybe, maybe we, we begin as guys especially probably to like check out a little bit, you know, in, in the lack of being maybe more present. Correct.

Speaker 2:Right. You're seeing their social self, but you're also seeing their shadow self, the parts of themselves that most people don't gain access to after a workday. How do they behave when, when they're angry mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. What does that look like? So it's all, it's all about the friendship, which is why spending a lot of time together, seeing each other in different stages or in different spaces, updates your knowledge of who your partner is so that when you do choose to make a lifelong commitment, you have enough information to tell you, I'm accepting you and loving you for who you are today. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and who you could be tomorrow versus it's the first one to three years we've never argued and thinking that's gonna last forever. That's not reality. No.

Speaker 1:And um, you said something that like really I immediately just like got lit up. That I think has another, it's been another crucial component to what I would call a successful ingredient in, in my marriage and my partnership. Um, we've been together almost 10 years mm-hmm. <affirmative> like since meeting kind of stuff. And besides communication and besides taking the pause when I think things might get escalated, I really do believe this is probably the third most important, if not even maybe the most important component to what has made my partnership healthy and successful thus far. And that's, I have never stopped growing individually. I have never stopped being chase. I have never stopped being in pursuit of what Chase can do and his potential. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, neither has she. And I really do think, and it sounds kind of counterculture, I think for a lot of people who have that traditional mindset of partnership, relationship, especially marriage. What do you mean you're growing individually? <laugh>, what do you mean you're doing your own thing? What do you mean she's doing her own thing? What do you mean you're taking trips apart? What do you mean? All this stuff? And I really do believe that without that, if we were to come back together and do these 20 minute exercises and talk about ourselves, what the hell would we say

Speaker 2:Exactly.

Speaker 1:We'd be saying the same shit over and over. I went to work, I did this came home gym errands. Like you have to have your own individual journey for your own self, I believe. But to have something new and continuously new to share with your partner to come together on.

Speaker 2:Yes. And that's what builds the desire, the space between the two individuals is what allows the desire to grow. It's

Speaker 1:Like, oh my God, you're going through this. Yeah. Oh my god, you've grown here. Like, oh my god, you, you're, that's what you wanna do. Right? It's just like excitement, excitement, excitement, input, input, input. It's, it's incredible.

Speaker 2:Exactly. And, and just your partner seeing you do new things mm-hmm. <affirmative> excites them cuz they get to mm-hmm. <affirmative> see a different version of you. They get to see your growth and experience that and, and, and be a part of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I've never agreed with the concept that people grow apart. Mm. That's not true. One person is growing, the other person is seeing the growth, but choosing to remain in their comfort zone mm-hmm. <affirmative> because they become insecure mm-hmm. <affirmative> about the other person growing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So if you, both of you guys are growing and you can go into their life and support them and witness that growth mm-hmm. <affirmative> and welcome it, then there's no issue. It's not that we're growing apart, it's that I, the Prius, the version of you that I appreciate is the version of you that I've had and that made me feel comfortable. Now this new version of you that's currently growing is scaring the shit out of me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'm not going to acknowledge it. I'm just going to stay in my comfort zone and allow the distance to leads to more conflict and more distance versus allowing the space to ignite our desire for one another.

Speaker 1:But, you know, comfort is good. Right. Comfort is, to some degree comfortable. Comfort is, excuse me, comfort is where I think especially in partnerships where I wanna say people are are failing. It's where you're doing yourself the most injustice. Yes. Nothing drives me more crazy on an individual level and especially in partners that like I love collectively. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is wasted potential. Yeah. Or untapped potential. And, but what I mean by that is you are not growing, you're not in pursuit of your own stuff. You're not taking time apart. You don't have to wait until you're in a fight or an argument to, you know, to be apart from each other. Like you should, you know, if you're gonna schedule date night, I think you should also schedule like, you know, I'm taking this trip by myself, I'm going with my friends and Yeah. You know, you should do the same thing. Um, if that is not someone's norm, if, if maybe they're not there, they're listening right now and like, oh shit. Like I I we don't do that kind of thing, how would you best advise kind of going about that getting started? Because that's gonna be uncomfortable and it's gonna be new and different Yeah. And maybe stirring other things up of like, you know, past experiences of like, well what are you doing by yourself kind of thing.

Speaker 2:Yeah. I, again, it, it, it, it all comes down to the abil the ability to communicate that, Hey babe, um, lately I've had a desire to branch out and actually seek the things that pour into myself. I think it will be very

Speaker 1:Hold, hold every guy, go back, listen to that <laugh> copy and paste that, that was the best. That was smooth. But so honest and real. Like that is such a great approach, man. Yeah.

Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and, and just kind of detail like my need to be around my friends more mm-hmm. And for that to be okay mm-hmm. <affirmative> now based on the relationship and what has happened, then we can put four of the necessary boundaries to ensure that my partner feels safe mm-hmm. <affirmative> as I'm venturing outside of them. Right. Is it more check-ins mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is it more accountability or whatever the case may be, is having that conversation mm-hmm. <affirmative> and being open to collaborate about it, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you really need to ask yourself, what is the philosophy of my marriage? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like what is governing my knowledge of relationships or partnership. Ooh. And once we can identify that and be on the same page in regards to that Yeah. And be willing to update that, then these type of conversations start to take place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> couples divorce over the conversations that they should have had but never had. Dude, uncomfortable conversations, get comfortable with it.

Speaker 1:I love Harry talking about the things that work, I believe pretty universally or at least a universal starting point. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of establishing boundaries. Yes.

Speaker 1:Establishing check-ins. Yes. Maybe more check-ins. And I think traditionally outside looking in other people single or in partnerships view that as like, ah, you gotta go call your wife again. You gotta text your boyfriend again. Yes. You gotta do all these things <laugh>. And it's like when it's our choice, when anything in our life is our choice, regardless of the perceived norm coming into that decision completely changes the whole experience. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I choose to check in with my wife. I don't even wanna say check. I, I choose to communicate on a somewhat regular basis when I'm traveling. I'm here in New York for the week. I make it a point in the morning, even though we're three hours apart text, Hey, good morning baby. Hey goodnight. I, you know, all these kind of different types of check-ins just to know, let her know really that, you know, she's on my mind and it's not because she asked me to, it's because I want to. Right. Because I've been on the other side of too much time. In between communication and too much time between communication, I think is where doubt and curiosity and fear and limiting beliefs and preconceived notions and past relationships, all that, you're allowing more space for that to creep in when that's not fair to you or your partner.

Speaker 2:Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I'll also recommend that you have friends or a community that is supportive mm-hmm. Of the relationship that you're trying to build. When I'm out with my boys mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we get that, yo make sure, yeah. Text your wife right now, <laugh>. Right. Call check in friends, man, your your you on way out, on your way out. Let her know that you are on your way. Right. We readily do this mm-hmm. <affirmative> easily. If we go on vacation, we know the minute we wake up, we're calling our wives and we're checking it mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's not an issue because we all have healthy relationships mm-hmm. <affirmative> and we understand what it requires to build that mm-hmm. <affirmative> and we, we are, we're also very thankful that we have partners that are so understanding and trusting and we don't wanna ruin that.

Speaker 1:Exactly.

Speaker 2:I see what's out there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're, they're in my office every day. <laugh>. It is not fun. <laugh>, I told my wife, I ain't going nowhere <laugh>, I don't care how mad we get. We gonna sit here, we're gonna figure it out. There's nothing out there for us.

Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, that too is, that's another powerful thing. Um, and I think perhaps one of the most uncomfortable things in partnerships is when, when things do get escalated mm-hmm. <affirmative> when maybe you haven't taken that breath, or maybe you did and things just still went there. Um, again, personally speaking, the frequent commitment in my mind to myself and to my partner to stay here, to stay here physically and mentally and emotionally has been how I've navigated some of the darkest storms, most trying times in our relationship. Yeah. Um, not everyone maybe has that, or I think maybe in those heated debates, maybe that's where, again, past relationships, fears, preconceived notions, et cetera, creep in and the commitment checks out. How can we make the commitment for ourselves and for our partnership to stay present physically and mentally when things are the most difficult And or when maybe is that the sign that we, you know, commitment might not or should not be on the table.

Speaker 2:Excellent. Again, amazing questions, man. Like, I've done a lot of podcasts. <laugh> your questioning got me in my clinical bag so bad. I,

Speaker 1:I love, it's amazing my answers and explanations thus far. I mean, it's amazing. Relationship health is so Yeah. Special to me.

Speaker 2:So I I I would say again, knowing how to label what's happening for you. Mm-hmm. Right. If your partner's asking to go somewhere or is going somewhere and you're triggered mm-hmm. Versus attacking them label what's happening? Hey babe. Ooh. Yeah. Current babe. In the past I've dealt with, with, with, with relationships where space was given and, and fidelity and lack of commitment took place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, currently I'm working through it and I know that you are not that guy or that woman mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I'm learning how to trust again. Right. So when you are away from me, I get scared. I get triggered, I feel like this is going to repeat itself all over again. And that scares the hell outta me because I love you, I love us and I want us to work together. All I'm asking is, can you help me and give me more time and more space as I'm learning to re trusts in this relationship?

Speaker 2:And for me, that looks like when, when you do step out, can you check in with me? Mm-hmm. Can you call me on your way back? When I call you, could you please answer? Cuz I'm relearning to trust myself, my instincts, and you. Mm-hmm. And right now, it's hard for me, but I do think that your support would be highly beneficial. You say that to your partner, they can understand because they can identify with the emotions. Oh my God. You're not attacking them. You're telling them what's happening for you. The two words to avoid when speaking to your partner is you never, you always mm-hmm. Because tho those are directly punches to the

Speaker 1:Face. Yeah. If you say that, who's gonna be listening after any, anything after that, you know,

Speaker 2:You never, you always, well, five years ago I did mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or three days ago I did. Right. So that's why it's very important to label what's happening Mm. And be so attuned to yourself that you just know how you're feeling and what's being triggered.

Speaker 1:Great answer. Great, great answer. Thank you. Um, I'm gonna shift a little bit into another area. I, I think in partnerships that mm-hmm. <affirmative> can be, or it probably is a, a common area of friction or at least frequent communication and that's the intimacy. Yes. Um, define that forest. Explain that forest. You know, where do you kind of see partners doing it Right. Doing it wrong. And um, again, maybe the preconceived notion here of like, males want it more, females don't, but again Oh, that's true. We're, we're crossing, you know, two night, two ships in the night kind of thing. You know, how do we really hear each other to get to what we both want more? Correct.

Speaker 2:So intimacy is a 24 hour process. Intimacy is everything you do Right. In a 24 hour period, the way you greet me. The tests that are done with within the household, the way you make sure that I feel seen and appreciated and celebrated. It's all of those things for couples that have trouble with intimacy is they tend to wait ones who are in the bed to start the, the intimacy process. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> when that should be part of the whole day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Foreplay is everything you, you do Right. Within that day. We don't just go to bed. I've been ignored. I haven't felt unseen, I haven't felt supported, appreciated. And now you want sex. Right. So it's all about building the habits needed that allows you to feel connected and aware of your partner. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, again, our brain plays a pivotal part.

Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and our brain does a very good job of recognizing when your partner's not doing something right and when they do something wrong, that's why it's so easy to criticize. Right. It's easy to point out all the things your partner haven't done mm-hmm. <affirmative> or all the things that they do wrong because your brain's trying to protect you by remembering the things that cause, cause you harm. You also need to train your brain to see the positive things mm-hmm. <affirmative> and to verbalize that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a ratio of five to one for every one negative thing that you do. Or say you need five positive things just to counter that one thing.

Speaker 1:Wow.

Speaker 2:That's amazing. Damn.

Speaker 1:I mean, it's great to know. Absolutely. But it's just like the power of that is, is pretty heavy.

Speaker 2:That shows you how detrimental and injury can be to a relationship. Mm-hmm. That's why initiating of repair as quickly as possible is important. Couples go days without talking to each other and giving a silent treatment. That's not what you want to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you wanna repair as quick as possible and juries are going to happen. Right. I'm gonna say something that's gonna piss you off.

Speaker 1:Sometimes that's time and space might be the best thing for you both

Speaker 2:For how long though?

Speaker 1:Yeah.

Speaker 2:Right.

Speaker 1:That's where a boundary and a rule could really come into place. Correct. Do really both are individually feeling that hurt or in a place of whatever I say is not gonna be the right thing or the best thing for this conflict resolution. Gimme 30 minutes, gimme an hour, gimme the day kind of thing. But you communicate that. Yes. Absolutely.

Speaker 2:And it's agreed upon mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you have a ritual of connection on exactly how gonna reconnect again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. We don't come to bed and you know what? I'm not going to bed. I'm gonna just sleep, sleep on the couch when our bedroom has been our safe space where we both feel equal appreciated and loved. Yeah. Versus saying, Hey, I still need more time. I'm thinking of sleeping on the couch cuz I don't want to be a burden to you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, does that work for you? Your partner might say, no, ev even though we're not seeing eye to eye currently, but we're not enemies. Right. No need for that separation. Crucial.

Speaker 1:Yeah. You were kind of bringing up something maybe like chuckle inside. Um, may if you're listening, probably not skip this part. Cause I feel like I'm gonna be giving away my secret sauce here. <laugh>. Um, I had this kind of switch flip recently on foreplay mm-hmm. <affirmative> on intimacy. It's something like, I want to be better at being intimate. I I want to think outside of the box. I want to go about it differently. Um, because I recognize, like, I don't think I'm alone here. Most guys when I want to be intimate, it's at this time in this place. Correct. Or around these times, around these places. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I wanted to just, I wanted to test it out and see what would happen. And a lot of things like around the house, you know, whether it be laundry, whether it be dishes, whether it be an errand, whether it be something that I can honestly recall, chase, she's asked for your help on this more than once or even just once. Um, instead of looking at as a task, I look at the dishes in the sink, I go foreplay

Speaker 2:Char play

Speaker 1:<laugh>.

Speaker 2:That's the term that's char play. I

Speaker 1:Have dude, brilliant. I have completely flipped the switch in my mind of these things that again, it's like dangling, I'm dangling a carrot in front of me that I want, you know, maybe in a few hours or later that night. But, so if I can go about the day and just completely change how I view it, these things and go, this is foreplay, this is foreplay, foreplay, foreplay. Yeah. I I it's worked <laugh> it's worked

Speaker 2:Because that speaks to the invisible load dude.

Speaker 1:Chore play.

Speaker 2:Yeah. Right. The, the, the, the fact that now you are helping and being more aware of what needs to get done and you are taking Tass away from me, freeing me and giving me more space and more time to myself. Mm-hmm. Sorry. So now I have the energy, I have the time, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and women also find it attractive mm-hmm. <affirmative> when their men are doing things around the house. Right. It's very manly mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Speaker 1:And that's also too like, it's such a great point. It's more than just the generic. The wife is always bickering with a husband about like, you know, I do all these typical household chores, you know, whatever your dynamic is in your relationship mm-hmm. <affirmative> your dynamic. But in ours it's a lot of the common stuff. Um, also my wife is super ooc d and loves to clean anyway, so I don't wanna take that away from her. Yeah. Like, she loves that stuff. Uhhuh <affirmative>. But she has made it very clear to me over the years that, um, and she's never said to what degree because I believe it's kind of a blanket statement. I really like it when you take charge. I really like it when you get shit done. I really like it when you're proactive and kind of insert more of that, that masculine energy, that typical male gender role of just taking care of things. Yes. And now finally, you know, years later I'm realizing the gravity that even the smallest tasks have in relation to that request that she has been sharing with me forever.

Speaker 2:Yeah. And it actually, I, I I just learned this, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> currently US males have the lowest testosterone level in history.

Speaker 1:Oh yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:In

Speaker 1:History. Well, I've been on t R T for a year now. Mine's,

Speaker 2:I'm thinking about I'll give, give, give

Speaker 1:Two years,

Speaker 2:Gimme two years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm jumping on.

Speaker 1:But yeah, absolutely. It, it's, it's wild.

Speaker 2:Yeah. And that also plays a part into all of that, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that masculine energy don't need to get shit done mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And a lot of times when, when it just allows your partner to develop new eyes for you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> see you in different perspectives. See diff different facets of you that they find attractive.

Speaker 1:It's actually funny you bring this up. Um, quick little sidebar, shout out blokes. Uh, this men's health and optimization company that I've been using and working with and been a patient for, uh, right about a year now. Um, the founder, um, husband, wife, couple, Josh and Katie, and this was exactly it. They were really kind of at their wits end with their marriage, you know, almost on the verge of divorce mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it came down to, you know, trying all the things. But really what was preventing Josh from really showing up and performing like Katie wanted in a variety of ways. And you know, Josh, Katie, please chime in. I'm not trying to tell your story for you, but this is what they share publicly. It was this, he physiologically biochemically was not optimized so he could not literally be the man that he wanted to be in his marriage could not be the man that she wanted to be in their marriage. So once he got that taken care of through improving health, losing some weight, improving strength, getting regular exercise, testosterones, some peptides, things like that, like it literally saved their marriage. Yeah. So I think as a crucial component sometimes in a partnership, all the things we've been talking about are very important, but sometimes if you're still not getting there, it literally could be your body. Yeah. It literally could be yourself

Speaker 2:A physiological issue. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? So that's why lust is so important. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. We always speak of love, but we never speak of lust. Mm-hmm. To me, for relationship to succeed professionally speaking, you need a significant dose of love. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and lust. It's okay to lust after your partner. It's okay to find them sexy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's okay to see them and just want to jump on top of them, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's why it's also very, very important to keep yourself in all facets of the relationship, not just emotionally, but physically speaking. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. I work from home every morning I wake up, I get dressed as if I'm going, I'm going to work cuz I wanna look presentable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I wanna look as sexy as possible because I want my wife to see me be like, God damn he

Speaker 1:Cute wearing the same pajamas again. <laugh>. Correct.

Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. So we tend to get very comfortable and very, very routine in what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then wonder why our marriage is not succeeding to the degree that it should. Right. A lot of times we gotta take accountability. Yeah. And, and not performance work and our performance at home and our performance with our children and our performance overall. Cuz that all contributes to how we feel about ourselves, which then reflects to how partner feels about us.

Speaker 1:What are you most hopeful for right now that you see in partnerships that has partnerships as a whole going in the right direction? Like what do you collectively see us doing well, uh, or at least on the mend mm-hmm. <affirmative> and if you could pick one thing that maybe we haven't talked about a as kind of something that maybe you see, uh, on the rise, like how can we get ahead of something, uh, conflict or an issue in partnerships?

Speaker 2:I think people haven't realized how difficult it is to transition from being a couple to parents. That's the biggest and the ultimate test that I'm going to say that any relationship will ever go through. Hmm. Right. So I, so, so, so I think at times we're not talk, we're not having that conversation enough and now we're not preparing ourselves for that step and what that's going to look like. So I say this to say that I think that I'm saying that a lot, right? <laugh>, we really need to start investing into our social support and our social network. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you need people around you that support your relationship, people that, that support you individually. People that you can rely on mm-hmm. <affirmative> and can create that community standpoint. Cuz back in the days we thrive in community mm-hmm. <affirmative> and now we've become so isolated due to the increase of the internet mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that we're just on social media. We're just texting not no more face to face and having that humane connection. So I do think that curating a social network and a social support mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, that support all aspects of you individually and your relationship will have a great impact mm-hmm. <affirmative> onto the results of your relationships.

Speaker 1:I'll even take it a step further there and say regardless of what the matter is before you in your partnership that you're trying to resolve maybe a conflict mm-hmm. <affirmative> or honestly just maybe even maintain or optimize something. I believe both could be greatly, uh, served by what you just said. Yeah. Because there are so many things in life and in partnerships that take on extra weight in the partnership that again, speaking from experience that very gratefully I have, we have some of the best people, deep, meaningful relationships in our lives that are individuals, but also other couples that serve our relationship in ways that I don't even think they fully realize. Yeah.

Speaker 2:Stop expressing your partner to play every position in your life.

Speaker 1:Oh my God, dude. Like,

Speaker 2:Come

Speaker 1:On. Yes. This is so great to have you, the professionals say so many of these things because these are things that my wife and I have kind of realized over the years and like some harsh truths that someone may be in a happy, committed relationship like we are. You wouldn't expect to say like, love isn't always enough, it's not enough, and your per your person, your partner is not gonna solve all your problems. They're not gonna be everything for you. Correct. That is the whole notion here, the paradigm that I love how you started off the e episode with of like, hey, we need to radically change that. Correct.

Speaker 2:Right. Like, they can be your go-to for everything, your business partner, your lover, your your best friend. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your trainer, your this, your dad. No, it's okay to venture out and have other people within your circle that you have different types of relationship with mm-hmm. <affirmative> because we need that you main interaction. We need that community mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's just too much pressure to expect one person to play all of these roles into your life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, your happiness is yours. It's not your partner's responsibility to make you happy. It is your responsibility to find the things that make you smile Mm. That makes you feel alive. Right. Just like you were saying, the the things that help you grow Yeah. On your journey that you need to continue that do not allow the relationship to become your soul identity.

Speaker 1:Dude, mic drop right there, man. <laugh>, uh, Mac, this has been so good, man. I, I, uh, I wanna be mindful of our time here and uh, kind of get to my last question with you that, uh, I ask everybody Yes. You know, kind of through your lens and through how you do what you do and why you do what you do, um, how can that help us do what I'm here to do to help everybody live a life ever forward? When you hear those two words, man, what does that mean to you?

Speaker 2:Ever forward, ever forward, ever forward is just finding ways to continue to, to continue on your journey. Mm. But also being able to venture out to the side of the road, acquire the knowledge, acquire the skills, acquire the information. So when the next hurdle presents itself, you are already equipped to overcome it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I am a nerd. <laugh>, I will sit here and read relationship books well to all the real

Speaker 1:Today, <laugh>

Speaker 2:I'll go to all the trainings you could think of. Yeah. I will talk to anyone and everyone because that's knowledge. Knowledge is power and power is freedom. Right. So in order to continue to move ever forward, equips yourself, so you're ready. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:<affirmative>, I would say, uh, very thankful for everybody's interpretation. There's never a right or a wrong answer. Um, but I I I love that one and I love when people kind of take a maybe the non expected approach to Yeah. To move forward together. You gotta move forward separately kind of thing, you know?

Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah. I'm gonna take that <laugh>, take

Speaker 1:It towards man, co-sign all the way. Uh, well, Mack, where can everybody connect with you to learn more amazing relationship, partnership, health, you know, maybe even work with you. Uh, we'll have everything down the show notes for everybody, but where are you hanging online? Where can they connect with you? Gotcha.

Speaker 2:Um, you can find me on, in on Instagram under talk to Mac underscore therapist, talk to a l k, the number two Mac m a c underscore therapist. If you're New York City and you're looking for a therapist, you can find me as therapies for everyone that art.

Speaker 1:And, uh, I can already tell, man, I'm gonna gotta have you back another time and it's gonna be return of the Mac.

Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, man. Um, well this was my pleasure, man. Thank you so much. I love talking to my relationships,