EFR 560: Good to Great Using Higher States of Consciousness with Jonathan de Potter

(timestamps are not an accurate reflection of compiled episode, they are from the original raw interview recording)

chasechewning Beautiful. Okay, um, so first and foremost I just want to say welcome jonathan thank you so much for hopping on here all the way from on the other side of the world. This is what I love about technology that we can have these elated conversations. No matter where we are. 00:13.54 Jonathan de Potter It's great to be here Chase Thanks for having me. 00:14.98 chasechewning And your work is something that is new to me but I know the pursuit of this type of work is not new to to human beings tapping into the work. The inner work. Various stages of consciousness and and subconscious work. But you have a really unique perspective on it and especially as the world seems to be kind of coming back to I'll say plant medicine and various ways that we can tap into altered states of consciousness for the purpose ah of healing. Um. Yeah, a really interesting perspective on it that I haven't quite heard yet. So I'm excited to hear your perspective on the work and in particular plant medicine coincided with that. 01:00.77 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, sure. Um, so I guess you know the way that I look at this work now is it's all vibrational and so when we talk about elevating consciousness when we talk about sustaining a higher state of consciousness what we're trying to achieve is to harmonize mind body. Heart and spirit into a single vibration and then we're trying to raise that vibration up into you know, even kind of at an atomic level. We're trying to reach and sustain that higher vibration. Um, and it's not you know that I necessarily believe that psychedelics or plant medicines are inherently positive I believe them to be Neutral. It's the intentionality. It's the it's how they're used that makes the fundamental difference and so you know winding back 5 years ago I was actually an atheist who you know was living and living in and dying in the corporate world. You know working pretty hard in management and strategy consulting leading a big team and I kind of at that point thought I had all the answers in life. But I guess you know I just kind of reached a stage where I was working too hard and nothing was going to bring me any incremental joy and so that was really. Ah, turning point for me I decided to take a year off as part of that I found my way into a first plant medicine retreat and that was you know, easily the most challenging few days of my life and I made many subsequent mistakes following that and so you know my real. Goal my real motivation in relation to stepping into this field is to educate others so that they can avoid some of the mistakes that I've made over the years and hopefully have an easier and a better path to higher states of consciousness. 02:41.37 chasechewning So what is it about and this might just be my own newness to to plant Medicine. What is it about the medicine that brings us in that has been described as calling people to it. Um. Because there are so many other ways that we can go about trying to better ourselves and it's a lot of the stuff that we talk about here on the show and it's what I do personally and what I've done for many many years as a clinical health coach. You know, optimize your nutrition optimize your your physical activity optimize your sleep optimize the quality of your relationships. And those can do wonderful things. But I'm with you. This is part of my journey now I'm with you when it's just sometimes we come up against a wall and where we feel like there has to be more what am I not doing what am I missing so then it's just kind of like oh well, the only thing left is must be plant medicine right. 03:35.39 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, Well I Love what you said there in terms of hearing the call. You know when I I guess when I started this business. Um I was probably of the perspective and the opinion that you know a lot of people in my broader social and professional networks would take an interest. Um, in doing you know exploring this this field but it hasn't really it hasn't really ended up being that way and I think a large part of that is because of what you've described there which is people really need to feel in a very deep sense called to this work and I think that's super important that people take the time and the energy. To very deeply develop their own Why you know sometimes we hear of people saying oh I've had 2 friends that have done it and they had a good experience So I want to go and do it and we always encourage people to like yeah I get that and yeah, perhaps you feel the call but let's develop that. 04:25.61 chasechewning So that that and maybe that plus something? Yeah, exactly. 04:30.56 Jonathan de Potter Exactly So Let's develop that and make sure that you really embody? Um, embody that why because in those moments where you know these these experiences can be super challenging even even scary and so and so really having that at the core of your being and as a point of remembrance. Um, in those moments of of you know of challenge I think is is very important to being able to you know work through the challenges that do arise through these experiences. 05:03.29 chasechewning There's a word that comes up for me as you're kind of just walking us through that and I wonder if you agree and that is surrender I don't think I would use that word to describe. I Surrendered to my new workout I surrendered. Well maybe you surrendered to your therapist. Um, there's a lot of work involved there but I did I surrendered to this diet because it's usually us kind of going after it. It's us doing this thing us eating this food taking this supplement trying this workout. Doing this and that and it's us in the in the driver's seat right? But and again I wonder if you can relate here through kind of the act of surrender and being called to this work I feel like that's the big differentiation here am I am I right. 05:48.40 Jonathan de Potter It absolutely you know that's that's a word that we we take a lot of our clients through a sevenweek program and for all of the clients who've not done this work before I recommend that they start with an intention that relates to surrender because fundamentally what's happening in the ceremonies is that. You're reconnecting in a much stronger way to your higher self and what people tend to find as they progress through this work is that there emerges you know in ceremony a negotiation between the higher self and the lower self the egoic self right? And that's a pretty um. Challenging experience. You know, sometimes it's referred to as what what we're looking for actually is an ego death which is that you've completely surrendered your lower self. Um and and it feels in that moment like you actually are dying. And of course it's it's not the case but you are surrendering completely to what is and so resisting you amazing amazing and so to resist resist and contract away from that experience makes it so much worse. So you've had 2 2 such experiences have you. 06:42.36 chasechewning I've been there twice? yeah. 06:53.63 chasechewning Yes, for me, it happened when I underwent ketamine assisted psychotherapy have you heard of an organization called field trip health yeah, based out of canada but they have them all over the states here internationally they they have a great location here in la and I did it about a month ago or so. 07:00.85 Jonathan de Potter I have. 07:13.53 chasechewning and um and I underwent 2 sessions and in both of those sessions I I had a death I just I completely separated I died from my human body. My human form. Um the ego the self the everything and I quite literally separated from body like soul and body completely did. Detached and mykali the first time was pretty trippy. It was very interesting. Um, the therapists even said I was saying some things out loud that were very interesting like what's happening am I supposed to be here I think that was 1 phrase that I kept saying but then the second time. It happened again. But I was very familiar with it. It's it's just kind of like okay here we go I'm dying again I was just you know here for the ride kind of thing. 07:55.00 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, amazing, amazing and you know when when we're able to surrender into that experience then it allows for I think a deeper exploration right? because the the energy that precedes the entry into that experience is is. Just of a different ah different quality and so allows I think a deeper understanding and a deeper exploration of the subconscious and superconscious realms. 08:23.12 chasechewning Jonathan I Have to ask a question that I ask many of my guests and it's because usually when we're on our wellness journey on our healing Journey. We find this food that helps our lives so much so we create a product out of it. We. Make this workout and so we sell this workout as a online fitness trainer or a coach or a personal trainer. You were undergoing this particular type of work and you took it a step further and you haven't bottled it like ah maybe nutrition entrepreneurs do or you haven't put it into a. 08:46.60 Jonathan de Potter Type of work and Mutual is step further The other. 08:58.44 chasechewning A periodized program like a lot of fitness coaches. Do you have gone a unique way and you've gone through your experience and now you're sharing this experience with others. Ah as a healing facilitator am I correct So how did you go from experiencing this journey to helping facilitate it for others. 09:15.18 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, so I guess as I shared you know my my first retreat was very challenging I recognize that there was you know significant benefits to be had through this work but I would probably describe my first experience if I'm to be honest is a little bit traumatic. Um. 09:15.58 chasechewning What was that calling for you. 09:33.98 Jonathan de Potter That then subsequently set me on a path of attending a number of 5 star retreats over the years that followed number 1 to do my own work but also to understand this work. You know in in a broad sense more deeply ahead of moving into it from ah from a career perspective. Um, a clarification I would make is that I myself don't facilitate the plant medicine ceremonies I have you know we have um, a set of healers that we know love and trust because they do this work at a high level. Um, but fundamentally what really motivated me is that once I started working with a private healer. And when I say healer what I'm talking about really is someone who is transmuting energy on our behalf right? So it's very different from what might be called a a tripsitter or a therapist or a facilitator It's someone who is actually in tune with your own energetic body. And as these powerful emotions are coming to the surface right from the lower levels of consciousness. So that's all the shame the guilt the fear, the grief the apathy the anger the pride the envy all of these lower level emotions and even you know lower stuff that sits at the other polarity. The the healers. That are working with you are doing energetic work that is because their energetic channel is just Broader. They're able to bear some of that load as these energies come to the surface and so through my own journey and working with private healers. You know I've made. Would say ninety eight percent of the progress in working with private healers versus the many group retreats that I had attended and so once I kind of understood the distinction between you know, sitting in a group of 20 or 25 people in a retreat in a beautiful location and actually having either a much smaller group or private work. With healers that are really focused on you know the outcomes of the individuals I was like oh there's something else here that has been unfortunately is is being overlooked in a broad sense and so that's what really motivated me to establish beholder traits. 11:34.65 chasechewning So How would you kind of describe this energetic presence that some of us have and some of us more so than others because I feel like before kind of stepping into this type of work plant medicine and you know psychedelic therapies and things of that nature. You kind of have to I would at least Recommend. Recognizing this this energy experience because there's the Experience. You're going to have with the medicine but there is an energy associated with it. Um, how can you kind of help someone understand that who maybe. 12:07.80 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, so the the way I might contextualize this is by describing you know in the west we've got with the psychedelic clinical trials is we have. 12:09.96 chasechewning Doesn't understand it completely doesn't believe it. You know what is going on when you say energy. 12:24.36 Jonathan de Potter Um, in a broad sense. We have people who understand the emotional and mental state of of a westerner and then we're doing the medicine work typically without so much of the understanding of the energetic or the spiritual aspects and even you know strictly speaking. Um, the the clinical trials don't really acknowledge the spiritual route right? They're still looking at this from a very deterministic materialistic world view now in contrast to that if we look at the ancient wisdom traditions. They don't really have the context for. Um, the levels of intergenerational trauma that a typical westerner has right someone coming down from a trading desk in new york the way that the ancient wisdom traditions. Do this work is very much immersed in culture and community as a context and they're doing this work. You know, continuously as a rite of passage for anyone who's a member of their community of their tribe and so you know as westerners go down and do this work in in that context, they're kind of missing some of the mental and emotional support that they might benefit from now in contrast to that of course the Medicine fruit. You know traditions. The wisdom traditions have Millennia of experience working with the medicines and doing the energetic work and so often you you might even use the word shamans or healers a bit interchangeably and so and so what they're doing is they are. You know we all have an aura an energetic field that that extends beyond our physical body and you know you can pick this up even with certain forms of photography right? We understand that there's wavelengths of energy that extend Beyond what we can see and indeed some people can actually see the aura believe it or not. Um, and so and so what they're doing is they're tapping into our energetic field and they're able to see what's going on in the energetic field and as a result of that they're able to perhaps bring energies or release energies out of your energetic field to begin to cause the right sorts of. Or to begin to cause interactions energetic interactions to begin to bring your body mind heart and spirit into the right into the right energetic alignment and and to get the energies moving in the right direction so you know there's many different wisdom traditions that use different language for. You know whether it's the chakras or the energy centers etc that talk about you know the importance of having our energies flowing in the right direction and fundamentally. That's what the healers are very attuned to and able to help us with. 14:59.76 chasechewning Fascinating fascinating. Um, so please take us through this kind of experience like this take us through 1 of these retreats because I've done things on my own with plant medicine I've done impromptu I wouldn't even call it a wellness tree but you know. 15:14.85 Jonathan de Potter Wrong to go kind on but you know bre. 15:19.40 chasechewning Friends getting together doing similar things. Um, but then I have been very very intrigued about this type of kind of experience that you know is being described as a proper set and setting. There's something to be said I mean think about anything that we do. You know we go to a work Conference. We go to ah a group workout I mean there's just literally an. Pick it up where you just left off a different energy about this type of stuff when we all come together for similar work and can have other facilitators there. So What is so unique about this experience. 15:41.91 Jonathan de Potter Um, facilitators there. So we associate all this experience. Yeah, so um, we take a more holistic approach and a more individual centric approach to this work and so what I mean by that is with most of our clients we bring them to. We bring them through a 7 weekek process and and that includes a one week retreat so 3 weeks before from home a one week retreat and then 3 weeks from home subsequent. You know following the retreat. And what we're doing in the preparatory phase is number 1 we're helping our clients get really clear on future self. So these medicines respond to intentionality and I truly believe that any 1 of us can become whoever it is that we want to be so when we anchor very deeply around who that future self is then the medicine can respond to that. The second piece that we do is we help clients surface any of the limiting thinking any of the limiting beliefs and help them become much more conscious of that right? So why is it that you're not that thing that you already want to be and so the more that we can actually begin to surface any of. The negativity of mind any of the the thought patterns that reflect lower levels of consciousness is the better that they'll be able to rewire those once they actually begin to work with the plant medicine right? So it's a very powerful experience to have you know the neurogenetic benefits and the neuroplasticity benefits that come with plant medicine. But what tends to happen subsequent to a retreat is that the old patterns of mind come Back. There's actually some really great science out there that was done from about 27 hundred ayahuasca retreats and what it showed was that number 1 these medicines are very powerful for helping us reconnect to our joy for life. Amazing! fantastic. The second thing is that. It can really help us deepen our spirituality and here's the third and what I think is the most important thing is it does not remove feelings of negativity and toxicity. So this is why people so commonly feel amazing after they've done a retreat or they've done a ceremony and they're like 10 out of 10 and then 3 days later or a few weeks later. Everything's just back to normal and it's. Because fundamentally they haven't been able to. They haven't surfaced. They haven't done the mental and the emotional work to actually be able to release to actually be able to sustain a higher level of consciousness and so what we what we focus on is that mental work and then also teaching teaching tools for emotional processing right? so. I mentioned before the shame the guilt the fear, the grief the apathy the anger the envy these are all lower level emotions that are stuck in our physical and energetic body and so we teach tools for clients to be to really connect with their own emotional body and to be able to release out these lower level energies and so. 18:24.77 Jonathan de Potter You know as as you probably have felt in those moments before say an ego death in particular, there's this real amplification of a lot of these lower level energies right? There's a lot that's that's being made available and so to to the extent that we've actually practiced this skill of emotional processing and emotional release. 18:34.87 chasechewning E. 18:43.46 Jonathan de Potter Is the extent to which we can actually you know, sustainably release some of these lower level Energies. So that's a lot about what we do prior to to a retreat then in terms of retreat typically we will do 3 to four ceremonies over the course of a week it depends upon the retreat it depends upon the Medicine. Um, and we do either private retreats or much smaller groups. You know there's a lot of places out there that do group sizes of 2025 even here of places that do 50 or a hundred people in a room at the same which to me is energetic madness like you couldn't you couldn't yeah. 19:09.67 chasechewning Wow, That's a little packed. Yeah. 19:16.86 Jonathan de Potter You couldn't pay me to to join a group that size but look to each their own. Um, and yes we do 3 or four ceremonies over the course of a week you know some yoga some meditation sometimes some breath work plenty of time for resting reflectioning journaling some beautiful you know, vegan or vegetarian food and then integration right? So we help clients really align around. You know what is it that they're going to bring what changes are they going to bring into Everyday life. What are the improvements to Everyday life that they would like to bring in and then we teach them tools around manifestation so they can actually begin to create from within versus you know the the typical paradigm which is. Ah, the hustle in the outside world which I think is increasingly a thing of the past. Yeah. 19:56.82 chasechewning And yeah, I definitely want to get deeper into your concepts here of the lower level and higher levels of consciousness and that work there. But first you hit on ah a word that for me at least in my kind of personal research is very pertinent and I see a lot of merit in it in necessity even and that's integration. There's a lot that can be done on our own with these medicines There's a lot can be done on our own with with anything but when we have integration going into an experience coming out of an experience with a facilitator with somebody else. Um, there's just something more powerful. There. Helps it stick would you agree and is integration really the the key here when we're talking about this kind of work actually staying with us after the experience is over. 20:44.33 Jonathan de Potter Absolutely and and you know I think I'm so glad that you you picked on that word because I think you know it's the question that I always try to ask my my clients and friends as well is like but what are you gonna do differently because because that's how it takes shape right? is. If you have this profound transcendent experience in in Universal love and the in connectivity of all things. Great. You know I'm happy for you. You've had ah a positive spiritual experience. You've had a positive you know, plant medicine ceremony. But what is it that you're going to do differently in the day to day that actually materializes. That change because that's ultimately what's so important. Not only for your own benefit but also to be able to reflect that experience into into the outside world so that you serve as a you know as a source of inspiration for others to potentially consider the elevation of their own consciousness. Which is you know I think so so important at this particular juncture that we find ourselves collectively. 21:42.94 chasechewning You know that is a really interesting point that I haven't quite thought about before when I think of integration and it's that for the most amount of stickiness right for the most amount of healing that we're after personally and then of course in our community and then globally we kind of need to. Be these personal ambassadors for what changes our lives for the better and we we kind of need. It's it's like ah I think ah, a secondary responsibility that we have to not only make sure that the work sticks for us for our life and for our healing. But then to carry that Torch in a way that accurately depicts what we went through and what works what is safe what is effective and what is you know our truth so that somebody else can see that can navigate it and can go towards their own journey as well because. That's what I'm after at least I there's so much work and goodness that can be done on my own. But why keep it to ourselves is I can create this perfect little bubble. But if I have to go back out into a world that sucks all the time. It's gonna be kind of counterintuitive. 22:49.32 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, absolutely absolutely and I think um, you know 1 of the big things that that I've seen that's come through this work is just dropping the judgment right? And in the moment that we're able to engage with the world in ah in a way that that doesn't carry that judgment around this is and you know. Particular I got to say it's in American culture. There's this real externalization of problems. It's not that the problem is in here. It's that the problem is out there. Um, it's so exactly and so to the extent that we actually process our response to the perceived problem. 23:16.25 chasechewning It can never be us right? It's always them. Yeah. 23:28.94 Jonathan de Potter Is what we're talking about when we when we talk about the elevation of consciousness right? or attunement as I say right? It's it's to the degree that we are able to tune in. You know every day every hour every minute to the signals that the universe is sending to us. And make no mistake like you know this is not some random random dance that we're all participating in the universe is sending us very specific messages and opportunities and challenges to see whether we rise to the challenge or whether we're just going to receive the same message again, you know I think we all have friends that have been. In the same relationship 10 times over with different people right? and they's just they haven't got they haven't got it right? and so they get they get an eleventh try and and so it goes. 24:04.80 chasechewning Ah, yes, yeah, yeah. 24:12.18 chasechewning And so it goes and so it goes unfortunately. Um Well let's take a step back So We can take a step forward here. Um you you brought up before we were recording a really interesting concept of these lower and higher levels of conscious work of consciousness and you you had a a little I'll say catchphrase that. But Butcher. It's going from from bad to good, but good to better is that correct I mean the way that you spun this was just like ah yeah, that's it What? what? what was that and how was how is this approach different. 24:33.92 Jonathan de Potter Um, ah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, so you know in in the in the modern zeitgeist I guess um, what we see is a predisposition to. Ah, focus on what I would describe as the lower levels of consciousness right? So unfortunately we collectively have set the bar for mental health at a very low level and the reason we've done that is because that's where the average is and so. Um, the conversation revolves around well are you below this bar and if you are then you need some form of treatment to get back above the bar so you can get back out there and you know get back to working hard and having a vacation every year and all of those sorts of things and I think that's that's fundamentally a little bit limiting in the way that we're looking at it. So. When we speak about the lower levels of consciousness and you know if you look in the media all of the or the vast majority of the media coverage in relation to plant medicine and psychedelics is focused on what I would describe as the lower levels of consciousness. So that's the anxiety that's the depression. That's the. Um, addictive disorders right? That's the lack of motivation to get up and do the things that we know we need to do. That's the oct. All of those sorts of you know disorders are reflection of a of a fundamentally of a lower level of consciousness where we feel victimized like kind of like low hanging. 25:53.94 chasechewning Yeah, would you would you call that kind of like low hanging fruit and not to you know play lightly on anybody's Ocd or anxiety or anything but just in terms of the hierarchy here is that kind of the low hanging fruit of the work. 25:59.30 Jonathan de Potter And not till. 26:06.00 Jonathan de Potter I Think that's I think that's exactly right? So I think in the medical world. There needs to be number 1 there needs to be a problem for us to address. So That's 1 and I think you're absolutely right? that actually going from low levels of consciousness to better levels of consciousness is actually easier. Then going from good levels of consciousness up to the higher levels of consciousness and I think this has been kind of.. It's been again, sample size of 1 but in my journey I very much was having these profound challenging transcendent experiences on my retreats. But I could see that I was really kind of landing back where I was. Before subsequent to these experiences and that's because I wasn't doing the mental and emotional work I wasn't being expertly guided and facilitated and so you know it's I think I think what you said is exactly right? It's It's much easier. It's the lower hanging fruit to address the lower levels of consciousness What we are more excited about and more interested in.. How do we get people who are already doing really well to get them to an even much better place where they have you know 1 hundred percent confidence and trust in the Universe. They have a very bold and exciting vision that they're bringing out into the world and they're mobilizing a collective of people to realize. You know, big things and and make big improvements to the world because ah, you know again I think I think we're at a very exciting juncture where you know more people than ever are taking the entrepreneurial path. They've got a big bright bold idea. And they want to be energized and they they deserve to be energized towards that and I think this is a powerful tool to help people get the clarity and the confidence that they can benefit from. 27:43.29 chasechewning So then I guess the question there is how do we get people to to recognize that how how do we get them to go from I'm good I'm happy with my life I'm good where things are. Feel like I don't have any big traumas or issues to work through or maybe I did and I'm at a great new Baseline now how do we get people to believe that they can be better or that they should want to be better and there are are these higher levels that they can tap into if they're good where they are. 28:17.19 Jonathan de Potter It's a good question. Um, and 1 1 that I certainly bounce a lot bounce around quite a lot. Um, and and I think it does I think it does relate back to the calling and it relates back to serving as ah as a source of inspiration and so I think. I think we are going to see a lot more spiritually informed successful businesses in in the you know the period ahead and so I think that will serve as ah as a meaningful. As a meaningful mechanism you know and I think you know thanks I think we've got some characters out there already right? if we talk about tim ferriss I think Joe rogan although you know maybe if you look at you know if you look at some of the yeah, he's a bit of a wild guard. 29:00.87 chasechewning He's all the things that. 29:04.14 Jonathan de Potter Um, but I think there's also the media is is playing a role and so it's the popularization that is going to help I think people naturally gravitate towards the things that work right? So there's a lot of judgment in this ecosystem about you have to do this this way and you have to do this this way and you can't do this and they can't do that and you know. Ketamine is this and Ketamine isn't that and you know we we're going to patent these things. There's so much judgment for a group of people who you know theoretically have experienced universal love you've never you've never seen an ecosystem full of more judgment. Um, but fundamentally I won. 29:36.29 chasechewning Especially when there's dollars to be made. That's for sure. 29:40.83 Jonathan de Potter For sure for sure. But but fundamentally you know I'm pretty optimistic in the sense that um people you know if if Ketamine is an entry point for people which I think it is because you know number 1 it's shorter number 2 it's already legal dot dot dot. Um, people tend to plateau with with a medicine that isn't necessarily going to bring them to sustainably higher place and so people just naturally gravitate as you know evolution commands people naturally gravitate towards the things that bring truth. The things that bring health and the things that bring a higher understanding right? I mean that's just fundamentally that is what evolution represents and so you know I think whether we talk about politics whether we talk about plant medicine whether we talk about all of these things I have great faith in in the process of evolution. As the mechanism to bring us towards the things that are going to work and going to provide us the improvements to our own quality of life and through that process we can actually begin to empathize in a much deeper way with other people and where they're at because you know I think we're we're at a juncture now where. People are It's very clear that people are seeing the world in very different ways and they're very attached to the way that they're seeing the world and that's okay and so we need to find it within ourselves to recognize that people are where they're at and that and that it's if if we believe that we have the right answers for ourselves. Then it stands to reason that other people also have the right? The right reasons for themselves and and so we need to really honor. Um, you know the the human human freedom in essence to be able to express ourselves and improve ourselves in the ways that we see fit. 31:23.72 chasechewning Well said, very well said. Thank you so much for that for that reply there. Um I want to ask you I guess kind of personally as someone who is well versed in these plant medicines and the work associated with it the integration and everything where. Can you go from here where where are you you quite literally jonathan where are you going? Where can you go? What is the next level for you is it's it's just in theory right? A new Baseline a new Baseline a new Baseline right? So what is your current Baseline and where are you going with this. 31:54.12 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, yeah, so the things that really motivate me is to get closer to systems of power and to educate them further on this work. So you know behold retreats was a first project. That I saw it was actually born out of a motivation to bring people on really transformational experiences as I shared before right because I had had such a number of experiences and I recognized what was possible when a certain few other conditions were true. Um, that motivated me to establish you know a system to be able to to demonstrate to others the realm of the possible in relation to this work. Um, but but kind of putting that to 1 side I you know I hope to find someone to lead the organization in due course um, what would really motivate me is actually opportunities to consult with governments or. Or to consult with you know systems of power and to help them understand what is possible through this work in terms of shifts away from you know more egoic motivations I me my towards more holistic motivations around. Okay, how can I help others. How can I set up the world and for future generations. Um, to be much better than than what we've got today which is you know systems of scarcity that are overly centralized to moving towards most decentralized systems that reconnect people to the sources of power. You know I think a lot of the the problems that we see today at at a local level are. Is a reflection of the fact that people feel disconnected from sources of power and so people naturally feel more responsibility more accountability where they have access where they feel like their voices are being heard and represented and reflected in the ways that you know communities and and you know. Indeed cities and and states and countries are being run and I think we're we're at a juncture now where it feels like things are are moving quickly in relation to people requiring. Yeah people requiring that real felt sense of of connectivity to um. Sources of power. So that's ah ah, that's a big motivator to me is to is to educate not with any sort of like agenda. But ideally you know what? I'd love to do is establish a consulting firm to educate governments. You know suit up sit on their end of the boardroom and and help them understand what this work represents. Beyond just you know what's out there in the in the media in relation to treatment for the lower levels of consciousness. 34:26.71 chasechewning And be like suit up and drop in kind of thing for sure. But. 34:30.19 Jonathan de Potter So and you know I think there's a lot of forces out there that are very eager to like hey we have to legalize this but they're bringing kind of a combative energy. You know they're seeing people with dyed hair and you know a few tattoos and piercings and you know they've got a lot of energy and force behind them and I actually think that you know. we we can we can do this another way which is we can do this from a peaceful and patient and loving and educational perspective and that might allow this this entire ecosystem to unfold more rapidly and in a way which is more in alignment with the work rather than trying to fit. The square peg in the round hole and force it into a western medical system. 35:08.24 chasechewning So do you think we'll get there in this lifetime. The next generation will we get there to where here in the United states for example, you know we have homeland security department of justice will we have a department of Spirituality. We have a homeland plant medicine. Department I mean is that even feasible to. 35:29.34 Jonathan de Potter I think so I think so um I think things are going to move very quickly in the next 10 years I think we are going to be witness to pretty radical transformation of quite a few aspects of of how we currently organize and. You know 1 thing that that in particular motivates me I don't know if you've been down this rabbit hole of distributed autonomous organizations. But I think it it represents a um, ah new way of doing business where all of the frictions and constraints of the old way of doing business are removed and so it's very exciting. You know it's. Under the kind of umbrella of web 3 where people are are bringing people are are coming together as communities with a united cause you know they're establishing a shared bank account. They're raising money quickly and then they're just getting after it together full steam ahead. And that's all being reflected in the value of the token that's associated with the business on the blockchain etc and so it's just this. It's this brand new paradigm where business is actually being disconnected from ah from fiat currency. It's being disconnected from from legal entities that exist within the jurisdiction of a country. And so you know there's going to be a very interesting tension between you know the powers that be that are obviously interested in taxation and maintaining control and the currencies that underpin that and everything that's happening anonymously on the blockchain at full speed ahead by people who are super passionate. Well-organized. 36:49.90 chasechewning Control and power. Yeah. 36:59.85 Jonathan de Potter And and determined to make good things happen in the world. So we we live at a super exciting time people. 37:03.52 chasechewning I You know I agree. It is very very exciting and I get very very excited for what is happening and what I feel in my heart of hearts is bound to happen in the short term and the not so distant future but I'm curious where where do you see us? maybe. Not being as cautious as we should where or what do you see in this this kind of plant Medicine revolution and in progression of legalities and moving the needle so to speak that kind of worries you or you wish maybe we were expressing a little bit more caution or even. 37:40.41 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, yeah, that's a great question and you know we've actually just signed up to become members of what is known as the the fireside project and I really love what they're doing. It's basically it's a nine 1 1 hotline for people who are going through very challenging psychedelic experiences and it's free. 37:41.55 chasechewning Danger. 37:59.78 Jonathan de Potter And so we've just sound signed on as ah as a founding member for what they're doing I think you know for any of your listeners that are in positions of privilege check them out donates the money what they're doing is really important, really amazing. You know I think as psychedelics enters the mainstream there's who. You know it's part of the human condition inherent to the human condition is to want to be better and so here we are we see now in the media every day there's this new tool that's now understood to unlock a b c d e f g and you know hundreds of thousands millions of people are paying attention to this. And of course you know, not everyone's in a position to go attend to 5 or 10 or 20000 dollars retreat right? And so what that means is that people are are taking the steps to you know, find find something that's close to home and to try to do this themselves and work it out themselves. Um, and so you know my message to people would be. You know, try if if you're in a position to do so try to find a coach or a therapist around the experience that you're going to go through if you're you know if you're doing work there's a lot of people who are doing this work underground get some guidance if you're in a position to do so you know it's not that you have to go for a 1 weekek retreat in costa rica or tulum or portugal in order to do this work. There are a lot of underground practitioners. Um, but but please take the time and the energy to understand this what you're getting into. Um, rather than just you know launching in and perhaps uncovering some pretty deep dark childhood trauma or whatever it may be in a context that you're just not ready for it. So I think that's um, it's a really important thing that people take the time and the energy ideally go through a safety screening. There are serious contraindications whether we talk about. Ah, people with a genetic predisposition to bipolar Schizophrenia or psychosis maybe or maybe you know people haven't had a ah major break yet. This can trigger that these medicines also do not play nice with prescription medication. So if you're on any prescription. Medications. Definitely 1 hundred percent. Go through a proper consultation with someone who can guide you in terms of whether or not this is going to be safe for you and then there are physical contraindications as well, right? and different medicines work in different ways on the body and so just make sure that you know what you're going into ahead of the experience because I think we are going to see a un. You know we're going to see a heightened level of psychedelic harm. Unfortunately in the in the decade ahead as people try to navigate this field themselves and as there's just not enough healers and facilitators and guides to help the number of people who want to be better than they are today. So thank you for asking that question. It's super important. 40:42.55 chasechewning So I would agree with everything you just said I think is's important I would say the same thing maybe not to the same severity but a lot of the same things if I was recommending somebody to you know, drastically change their diet or to introduce a new supplement anytime you're going to be. 40:44.62 Jonathan de Potter Up. 40:50.60 Jonathan de Potter The same set already out of time. 41:02.17 chasechewning Ingesting something metabolizing something or awakening something in your body your psyche tread lightly do your due diligence with yourself your provider and your source that's for damn sure. Yeah. 41:08.59 Jonathan de Potter Yeah. 41:15.87 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, and what just came to mind as you said that is make sure that it's coming from a place of of love for yourself. That's so important right? that it's It's not like oh I'm not I'm I'm here are my problems a B C and D I need to do this and I'm gonna just gonna do it right? That's that's that's a really. 41:25.20 chasechewning Yes, yeah. 41:35.14 Jonathan de Potter Bad way to set yourself up for a journey like you need to to accept yourself. You know work on self-acceptance and really grounding yourself in. You know the fact that where you are is where you are is exactly right and then coming from that position of love as you seek to expand yourself. Will just lead to a much better outcomes for all involved. 41:52.82 chasechewning So true. So true and you know speaking of the journey. This is what I talk about when you know I say live a life ever ford we are here to to learn things from experts and people like yourself and stories that like you have of the human potential and what. A human experience. The human journey can look like can feel like we all have our own It's gonna have some similarities but it is unique and it is ours. But there's a lot that we can share that can help other people you know, even if it's just 1 person behind us or a hundred people behind us and that's what I talk about here. That's what we say here. When we mean to live a life ever. Forward. So jonathan those 2 words man I'm curious. How does that fall on you here today after our conversation. What does it mean to you to live a life ever. Forward. 42:37.12 Jonathan de Potter Yeah, the thing that comes to mind is you know I think in the in the modern in the modern society. We have such a tendency to live in the gap where we have this future expectation of self and we are where we are today and so what we constantly see is the gap. What we I think could benefit from is bringing into that picture the game right? So where were we 6 months ago where were we twelve months ago and just acknowledging and respecting and loving ourselves for the improvements that we've made and living from that place on a daily basis and like I'm on. Ah I'm on a journey. This human experience is. You know I think 1 of the most profound experiences probably in the universe I've you know I've only got the recollection of this lifetime thus far. but um but I think it's so important that we recognize the gain and that we truly accept where we are. You know I think 1 of the paradoxes is that things are perfect as they are and they can be better. And so to live and recognize that paradox and so that we are engaging in each day from that position of not oh I don't have enough but actually I do have enough. We are collectively abundant I believe that it's just that we need to work on our consciousness in order to improve distribution. And so and so to embody that that gain mentality as opposed to that gap mentality. So that's what came to mind when I think about ever forward. 43:58.55 chasechewning Things are perfect as they are but they can be better I love that I love that it reminds me of a phrase that's been at the forefront of my mind and my life this past year and that's you are exactly where you are supposed to be There's so much comfort. And truth and even empowerment in that if we if we choose to wholeheartedly believe through the good the bad the ugly no matter what is right? or what is wrong. These are all our interpretations of where we are in our life and if we embody that this is where I am supposed to be There's a gift. There is a lesson. There is a truth. There is an accomplishment. In there. But there's also room for improvement. Absolutely so. 44:38.30 Jonathan de Potter Ah I Love that and you know I think the what's what's important is that is that we are coming closer to attunement with reality right? So if we if we're separating ourselves if we're rejecting the outside world the current our current circumstances as they are. Then we're saying we're separating ourselves from the reality of what is and that's not just within ourselves but also in the outside world and so it's so important that we we lean into that and embrace things as they are and just recognize that exactly as you said you know we're exactly where we're meant to be and this is all part of our journey.