EFR 545: Breaking Up With Sugar, Eating Disorder Triggers, and the Spiritual Side of Your Relationship With Food with Molly Carmel

Chase: And you said anecdotes plus evidence plus training is the key in this nutrition field in this wellness field, and that just really hit home for me anecdotes because that

Molly: that really that hits home deeply for me. 

Chase: Because that's really kind of what we're all after. Right? Whether we're trying to lose weight gain weight, I feel like this day and age, it's like, I need to know what works for me, I need to get some kind of personal experience some kind of assimilation. But also, I don't want to just be throwing a bunch of spaghetti up against the wall when it comes to my health in my life. Like I need some kind of evidence backing that up. So how do you kind of blend anecdotal evidence to help us make better decisions?

Molly: And I think the other thing that I'm, I'm pretty obsessed with is how quickly we give away our power when it comes to food and weight. And when we are, especially those of us who have been in this diet, drama and trauma, and you know, it's like a really cute phrase. But if you really look into it, like so many of us actually have, like, actual significant traumatic experiences from engaging in dieting. And so I think, and I think many programs are designed for us to give our power and stay in the system and not graduate from the system. And then I think there's a whole new breed of people coming out, which are coaches who have a person who have a personal experience that worked for them. And then they make a decision that that will work for everybody and then there's, I mean, a lot of shame. There's a lot of victim shaming going on. There's just a lot, it's, it's just a it's just a lot. I am, I did a consultation with someone in my practice and I one of the questions I asked is like, what are you looking for a coach? And she's like, you know, I just don't want somebody to like, shame me and berate me. And I was like,

Chase: she had that experience, probably 

Molly: like, um, so first of all, fire that person, but I think this, how, in how much of our power we've given away. And we're not even like thinking about who we're asking to help us. We're not even really looking at the data in which we're going to be engaging and trying to create a new relationship with food. It's, it's, I'm hoping it's almost at an endpoint where there's just one of these big cosmic shifts, where everybody just decides to like, step up and take back their power. I'm very, I'm very into people finding their own path and being a guide. I'm also about that, because that's like, literally the only piece of science that has any legitimacy. So what's really interesting about my fields, is that there's not one thing that works. It's fascinating, right? Like, some people are sugar addicts, and might, you know, given up sugar might be the best thing for them. Some people have been through such a traumatic space and eating disorders that they should be intuitive eaters, like, I don't there's so many factors that contribute to all of it. There's biological factors, emotional factors, it just like I could, that's his own podcast, right? Yeah, it really is. But the I think people are jumping into this pretty uninformed, the one piece of data that we know works, and this is kind of the clip of it is self-determination is when we decide for ourselves, what we know is going to work. That's the thing that sticks, and then I'd have to say one more thing about this, then you can ask me some questions.

Chase: I love it go. 

Molly: but the really crazy thing about food and diet culture, is that your relationship with food is ever evolving. And diet culture doesn't support that. You know, like the relationship I haven't had sugar and flour next on Tuesday, it'll be like 12 years since I've had sugar and flour, right? Yeah, that is not what I was doing. 12 years ago, isn't what I'm doing now. You know, it's like, the relationship you're in. It's always evolving. And it's not evolving in this like, for me, it's not evolving in this like biohacking like way that it is for many, but it's just different, I would never have thought I could eat some of the foods I eat today, I'm much more relaxed relationship with it's just better. So I think those are the two pieces that we lose sight of. And so I want to make it clear, actually breaking up with sugar could easily be a diet. I mean, there's a billion people telling you to do a sugar detox, and then no one's talking about what to do on day eight or day 31 and that's where the, I think the dangerous piece. So I think, you know, anecdotes and experience alone does not solve a problem just doesn't.

Chase: What is it about sugar that has, I'll say kind of fascinated you to not only pivot in your nutrition, and you just said you haven't touched it in 12 years. I know this is a big part of you know, it's the crux of your work really is sugar really the bad guy we have it out to be you know, why is sugar such a big part of your work in your personal life and in your practice? 

Molly: Let me tell you last house on the block, and I didn't even want to live there. Like I didn't give up sugar by virtue. I gave it up by necessity, you know, so like, if someone was like, hey, it's a total con I'd be like I'm back. I'm not like I wasn't in it for like the health game. You know, like I was just like, you know, I'm a total complete sugar addict. So, you know, it is and I think, um, I think the longer I'm doing this work and you know, like I've worked with just, you know, 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people and I think, you know, actually, the longer I work with people, the more impressed I am by it because I'm sort of like, signed, sealed delivered, like I know doesn't work for me, I know, I'm an addiction. The way that addiction goes, like, I stopped eating sugar and flour, my life got like significantly better in every single way. I think what I'm really fascinated by are things like when I treated someone with MS and her symptoms reduced by 80% or I have a client now who, you know, many of us who struggle with eating disorders, it goes to your teeth and your gums, and she has to get like all of her teeth done. And the dentist is like, wow, your gums are healing so much quicker than I anticipated. What's your diet, like? And she's like, yeah, I don't eat sugar. And the dentist says, oh, that's the whole thing. I mean, that's the whole thing. So there's this. So, you know, number one, there's not part of your body. So here's the other thing. So here I am saying, you know, one thing doesn't work for anybody, right? But there's literally like, no, nobody's saying sugar is good for you. Right? That's actually the only thing that we can all agree on. Like some relationally. Some people can have a cupcake here and there. But no one's like, yeah, like all sugar diet. Great idea.

Chase: Did you hit your sugar quota today? 

Molly: So I think like that's the piece of it. What I actually think is fascinating is and there are people way more qualified to me to talk about it. But the sugar looks a lot. The sugar industry is a lot like the tobacco industry, right? There's a lot of there's a lot of secret underground gnarly, gnarly stuff that's gone on. So I think the more awake we're becoming, the more we're seeing, like just some really simple stuff, right? It's an inflammatory it the way that they're making it now is to make you what are the big like, the big food stuff is off the chain of how they're, you know, what it's doing to our children. I mean, it's just endless. So, I mean, I hate to demonize. But yeah, and I think the other thing I want to say is, in my own personal experience, you know, I gave up sugar. I broke up with sugar. I was running a clinic that was that was what I was trained in for weight loss, right? I was trained in very low fat eating, counting calories, like writing it down all this very rigid, you know, very eating disordered stuff, frankly. And I was, you know, turning some of it, but I switched my clinic in a minute. I really did. I came into work the next day, it was and I had all these people that kind of like, weren't getting well or were gripping on with their lives. Like I was like, I know, when I was an eating disorders therapist, like Binging at night like living this, like double life I like couldn't stop eating. I was I had bariatric surgery that I'd eaten through and I was like, gaining weight it's, um, it's a vibe, you know. And like, and then I and then I gave up and then I broke up with sugar. And so I and this is what I mean about anecdote versus research, right? So I started get better. I started to do some of the research, I found a mentor, and I was like, oh, man, blind spots are incredible. Because like, I just, you know, sugar was always my solution for so long that I was just so unwilling to see is like a no about diabetes, and they didn't know about metabolic. And I knew about all of it, I just, you know, just didn't want to look at it. And yes, I did. So what I found was really interesting, too, is that when I started to bring a harm reduction food addiction model into my clinic, it was like everyone else started getting well, too. It was like, bonkers, like,

Chase: interesting. What were you doing there? What were kind of some of the next steps? I mean, you walked in and did what?

Molly: I walked in, and I had, like, many interventions does everyone like, so here's the problem, then we've been not looking at the right way. You know, I, I have such an investment in the work I do. Like, what am one of my core values is really, like evolve or die. And if better science comes out, that I'm going to go with better science 100% of the time, like, you know, they say, like, save your ass, not your face, you know, it's like, I'm here to help people. So if something better comes around, and I think in that way, it's really, you know, I've learned I've been learning a lot about all of this, this stuff, and I'm always learning. And then it was starting to inform people about not just how to give up sugar, right? Because again, like that is a diet, right? It's really the difference between a diet and a really form of biddable form of formidable change is a shift in what you choose to believe like, and I think that's why I think of it in like a relationship perspective, because you have to be in a relationship with food like there's no avoiding, like, so I think it was the other piece of it was about getting out of that rigid diet stuff that wasn't helping anybody get better always had an endpoint included things like cheat days, like what a mess and just get people into these like, loving, sustainable and relationships with food and getting what I also find for myself and others is like that when you take that approach to it, the other relationship you end up healing inadvertently is with yourself. Because you start to do all these lovable esteem bubble things and like, then you're like, oh, wow, whoa, I can trust myself. Like, that's whoa, what a miracle science. 

Chase: can you expand on that for me, please, because I know a little bit, you know, of your backstory and how that worked for you. But I think that's such a great concept for somebody to really pick up on right now is that when we improve the relationship we have with food when we become fully aware and improve the relationship with our diet, kind of the ripple effect it has for the relationship with ourselves.

Molly: Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, I think, you know, I worked at I started a therapeutic boarding school many years ago. And when we were doing some of the concepts of it, everyone's like, Yeah, but they're just 16. And I was like, yeah, they're 16 and they've probably been on a diet since they were 12. So that means a quarter of their life, they can associate with failing at something, and like, Chase, like, that's gonna do something to your personality, like, straight up, you know and so I'm dealing with, you know, people in their 50s in their 40s Feels like So multiply that multiply that so there's this underlying belief in, you know, like, in the behaviorism world, we call learned helplessness where you just, you just have these fundamental beliefs that you like, that you cannot get well, that you are unreliable, I mean, the core beliefs that people come to me with are they're heartbreaking is what they are is the only word I can use, like, I'm never going to be able to do this, I always fail at these things. I just don't know that I and, and unfortunately, right, the best indicator of future performance is past performance. So people just have this, you know Encyclopedia of I just can't do it. And that's and so, you know, bit by bit easy by slowly, when people start to do these loving and assumable things like break up with sugar, like, and for me, a big part of, of the, of the relationship piece is the imperfection of it is I always say to people, like you know, I don't think there's a chance you're giving up sugar for the rest of your life. It's not if you're gonna mess this thing up, like you're messing this thing up. Diet culture, never teaches us what to do about that, you know, ever. And so I think that I did to that exposure to imperfection. Plus, like, this idea that, like, I'm doing really good things for myself with consistency, like I'm loving myself enough to be consistent, like, it's unavoidable that you're going to start to think, oh, wait, maybe I'm like, not as bad as I thought I was right. And like, oh, wait, like, maybe I could do other things. Like I've just watched people like heal marriages get better jobs trying to it's amazing. The ripple effect of like, in the addictions world, they say that, you know, relapses a progressive is really progressive freight. It's a progressive thing. I think recovery is also a progressive thing to right. You get a little a little healthier a little. And like, I think people wake up and they're like, oh, my God, I don't hate myself anymore. Like, what happened?

Chase: I don't think we can fathom the power the empowerment, really that comes with that. Because that is not only just finally liking or being in alignment with your food choices, your lifestyle choices, that is you finally feeling empowered, and feeling in control of your life. And for some people I'm hearing for the first time ever for the first time in a long time.

Molly: Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's really right. And, and I think the other thing is, and you know, like listen, I'm a therapist by trade, I think to try to think your way into that is is possible, right? self-affirming. I love a good self-affirming mantra. I love all that stuff. I love journaling. But like really doing things like really doing things I think just gets you there a bit quicker. And I think the other piece that I've seen that maybe is the most miraculous of all of it is that, you know, like, you know, eating a cookie and getting back on track. Might be the greatest act of self-forgiveness that exists, right like and never occurs to anybody like oh, wait, I can just stop right here. I remember that happened to me. Like, I was like, I took like a handful of almonds from my secretary's desk a long time ago. And like, obviously, my first response was like, okay, so cool. Like froyo, next, like, what are we doing? Like, what are we doing? You're like, so what do we like mac and cheese? Like, where are we going here and I just remember I had this like little intuitive thought like, you could just go have lunch. You know, like, this doesn't have to be an episode like this shouldn't just be a blip on the screen. I use this analogy like, it's like we get with diet cultures. Like we get the flat tire in our car and we get out of the car, we check out the flat tire, we get a knife out of our pocket, we slice all the tires, torch the car and leave it on the highway.

Chase: one down. We might as well just burn the whole model.

Molly: I still get 12 years later, I still get a little like psyched up like big bender like let's do it.

Chase: it's an amazing a very, very honest response.

Molly: Nothing if I'm not honest. But I think yeah, I think there's this piece that it's because there's such a simplicity to what I'm saying right but I think inaction and I've just seen it with people they're like, I I didn't slash all the tires like and, and to because you know what comes with that right that demoralization, that hopelessness. And I think that reaffirming that you can't do it. Back to your question about like, why does it impact your relationship with yourself? Like talk about taking back your power talk about rewriting a story. It's like, yeah, like one cookie doesn't have to define my entire relationship with food. Like it's a cookie chill. You know?

Chase: I want to if I could have you share some insights on just why sugar is such a slippery slope. What is it doing? If you could share maybe some like, here's some scientific evidence, here are some biomarkers. Here are some we touched on some things earlier in terms of you know, inflammation and kind of being a trigger for some people when it comes to eating disorders, disordered eating. But let's talk sugar. Let's get specific about sugar. What is going on with this mofo? Why does it just love to just keep us coming back for more? And what is it doing to our bodies?

Molly: So my favorite is a lot of things gosh, my head might explode. 

Chase: She had a moment everybody. 

Molly: Let's just I mean, there's so when I think about if you're willing to expand your mind for a minute, and think about sugar as an addiction, there's a lot of people who just I say that word, and they just like balk at it, right. But I want to say, oh, it looks so good. Now, what I want to say in this new world. And I agree with this wholeheartedly, like even if you struggle with an addiction, abstinence isn't necessarily the only answer to recovery from an addiction. I mean, the sober, curious movement has really shown us that right. And self-determination has shown us that too. So if you don't mind me extending that for a minute, the thing that really fascinates me about sugar addiction is that it's a four pronged illness. And that I think, is an in and of itself is a big piece of it, right? So something like alcohol is a substance addiction, right? So it means you ingest it. And it impacts your nervous system, right? It impacts your brain, your dopamine receptors, all of those pretty fun brain words. And something like a gambling addiction is what you call a process addiction. Right? But that too, only impacts your, your nervous system, like. So what's really interesting about sugar is it's for prompt, right? So obviously, it's a substance right? And when it comes into your body, cues up your dopamine, you know, and we know that you have to for many people at one cookie won't do and we need more cookies to get the same high and even in many ways we get resistant, right? Like I know so many people who are big into artificial sweeteners and their dopamine levels have gotten so resistant, that nothing even tastes good. The high you can't get it the same way. Right. So could talk about that outer versus vigorous all day. So that's a really interesting piece. So here's, here's the other piece, which is it's also a process addiction, right? When you think about over consuming binging is a thing hand to mouth, right? That's a process addiction like gambling. And the thing about sugar is, I don't actually think the dopamine part is the most interesting, although it's very interesting that it does similar things like cocaine or alcohol. What I think is most interesting is that it's it impacts your endocrine system, right. And so it impacts your liver, and your pancreas, like all the really important things that get your metabolism moving your gut health and all of this. And what we're seeing in people, which is perhaps the most fascinating to me, is that people are starting to have liver problems as a function of eating food to where there is a diagnosis now called nonalcoholic fatty liver syndrome. What happens when you eat fructose? Fructose is fruit juice. This is people just think fruit juices. Fructose is alcohol without the buzz, right? Because it does the same exact thing that alcohol does in your body, which means it apparently isn't processed fructose is processed in your body, which means it kills out in your bloodstream, turns to fat and goes right to your liver. So we're seeing nonalcoholic fatty liver syndrome in kids in kids. So people who are intuitive eating people like they can talk all they want they don't like believe in food addiction. Like I can't even get involved in that conversation because big food in and of itself, like there's a beautiful book called hooked by Michael Moss. He wrote he was on my podcast and he's great because he's like a researcher. He's just that a journalist. He's like, I would have said before I started this book like you're going you're really extending by saying like sugar is addictive. He's like, absolutely, we are up against so much just from culturally. And then if you take other vulnerabilities like trauma, like past history of eating disorders like polycystic ovarian syndrome and all of these functional problems that many of us struggle with. And the thing is, as a woman in the culture and you know, in the patriarchy of at all, like I was put on a diet at seven and what's really interesting too about the binge restrict cycle is that it really compromises your ability to process insulin, it makes you insulin resistant. So people will come to me say, Well, I don't have any, you know, my endocrinologist says, like, you know, I'm okay. And I'm like, Listen, if you're binging and restricting, you got it's a compromised system. You know, your pancreas is just not a fan. And you have to be learning how to eat in a way that's going to make your body function optimally. I'm actually not even talking about weight loss or biohacking. I actually have I have a lot of problems with intermittent fasting and all of that most eating disorders, therapists and addiction therapists, okay, okay, I think all of these things can turn into eating disorders in a really big way. I'm also a shaman. And so I believe like in the deeply in the spiritual piece of this, right, and I think eating disorders, co-opt our souls, and do not allow for us to actually be useful. You know, it's a full time job having an eating disorder and an obsession or an Orthorexia obsession with food. I mean, it's I have a lot to say about.

Chase: I love that. I love that. Um, so a couple things come up there definitely would love to get into kind of the spiritual aspect you're talking about, because I think whether or not we ought we claim to be spiritual, we have a spiritual component to our total wellness, I believe. But before we get there, taken, or we need to before we get into the spiritual aspect, we've been saying some phrases, some words that I want to kind of really drive home, and that's eating disorder, disordered eating. And in this this episode of yours I was listening to it really kind of stuck out to me, something that I really agree with it I don't know, if everybody is fully aware of. And that is, it's not just one thing that triggers or causes an eating disorder. We're talking about kind of this compound effect and how sometimes when the eating disorder or disordered eating habit starts for the very first time, or we kind of have you know, a relapse, it's very rare when it's just that predecessor, that thing we were doing right before the conversation, right before. Can you talk to us about this kind of compound effect of disordered eating and eating disorders? 

Molly: I mean, it's, you know, eating disorders and addictions, I think, are perfect storms, in many ways. One of my mentors, says, you know, there's the nature of the person, the nature of the environment, and the nature of the substance. And, you know, when those three things come together, a lot of the time you get the pathology, I always, you know, this question was, brings up this other thing for me, because I think what we're doing in this moment, is relying on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual to inform people of things and, and I think that particular Bible in my industry is very flawed. It is, and it's very flawed with what we're talking about here. Right? Because they don't really think binge eating such a big deal in that manual, right? Because I, in my opinion, it's like the, it's really it's the lethality of it is really an extended release suicide, right, like, versus anorexia and bulimia, which is, you know, can die, you could die in the thick, right? So the immediacy of wanting to deal with things and not listen, I've treated plenty of all of them, right? I think I just want to explain, I always worried that somebody's listening and saying, well, I don't fit criteria for any of them. So maybe I don't deserve help. Or maybe I don't need help. And it's like, there's a there's one called eating disorder NOS, not otherwise specified, right? And it's like, if you're struggling in your relationship with food, you deserve help. 

Chase: also no matter what, I think we all deserve help. And anything we're working on our life, it's, we should ask for help. We all need it. We all deserve it. And we should want it more.

Molly: I'm here. I think but you know, honestly, Chase, I think that's the bind, right? I don't think I deserve it. So I don't want it like that's, that's, it's like, we're all just trapped in these cages thinking we should just be able to muscle through it. We don't want to get the right treatment went on paper. We don't know where it is. We're getting the wrong advice, because we're taking it from these people who are just having good personal stories.

Chase: we deserve help. And we are worthy of help also.

Molly: yes, yes, yes. Yes. And even for like, it doesn't have to be a big raging eating disorder. You know, I think that's my story. But like, wow, I mean, I wish I didn't have to wait till I was eating my way through bariatric surgery to say, wow, maybe I need to take this a little bit more seriously.

Chase: Which I think is a perfect transition into the spiritual component you're talking about, right there, I think it brings up the concept of the emotional eating the emotions that are tied to so many decisions in our life, but damn sure, when it comes to our eating habits, how is the spiritual component? Or what is the spiritual component to our, to our nutrition? And how is it any different? Or is it like a step beyond the emotional component? What's going on here?

Molly: I think it's a step beyond I mean, I, I think about spirituality in a few ways. I mean, I think of it as a belief system, in many ways is like, you know, what is the belief system that's going to be my that work are going to be my governing principles, right, in many ways. And so people will say, well, you know, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in this. And it's like, you know, yeah, me to kind of, you know, like, it, that's not the point. The point is about the lower self and the higher self, right. And when we're in meshed and ingrained, and it does in obsession of food, obsession of body, all of that, it's like, it's just a really crappy thing to pray to every day. It's a really crappy governing force, when there's so much bigger and better and more expansive above that, even if it's service and peace and love, and it's all gonna be okay. And in this moment, everything, you know, there's a lot of higher level things that we're praying to something no matter what, we're always praying to something, we're always praying to some kind of deity. I think the piece of the food and the sugar, it's like, listen, in my experience, when I was deep in this thing, I would be sitting here with you thinking, Okay, well, I hope I'm doing this well. And I'm not sure I'm doing this well. And the minute we're done with this, I'm going to go out, and I'm gonna get this thing because I need to know myself. Right? Right. And so that's taking me away from the present moment, right? In my higher self-life, which is like, hey, is like not really up to me, I'm going to show up to do my best, it's gonna be fun, and I'm leaving the rest of those, that's those are my spiritual values, right? It's such an easier way to live. Because it's like, the smallness and the postage stamp and the self, the self-responsibility and the thinking, I'm in charge of everything. I mean, leads girl to want to binge your brains out, you know what I mean? So there's this higher self-lower self-part. But if, if you're deep in obsession with food, and you don't think that that's your spiritual practice, right, now, you're out of your mind. You know?

Chase: I love your interpretation there of the lower self and higher self, I think that's probably one of the best ways and one of my favorite ways I've heard spirituality described or our spiritual self, because more often than not, we tend to what we go to, oh, what do I believe in my religion, my deity, you know, who I pray to how I pray. It's kind of like the acts of spirituality versus the range, the spectrum, the self-spectrum that or rather the spectrum of the self, I think, in spirituality that you said so eloquently.

Molly: well, I'm trained in a kind of therapy called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And it's a Zen based treatment, it's actually for the treatment of borderline personality disorder, and all very serious disorders, very well researched. Interesting. And it's about finding a balance between validation and change. It's really about the answer never being the opposite. The answer always being the balance, and one of the core beliefs and the treatment and the treatment was made by a woman who's a Zen Buddhist master. And she calls it the wise mind, you know, and what she's really says, and I believe his whole heartedly that like, everybody has a deep internal wisdom inside the and that spirituality, right. It's so because I agree with you like given all of our power away, I mean, listen, I have my own deities, I have my belief systems, I don't even want anybody knowing about it, because I want people to decide for themselves, which is what the wise mind is about, right? We all have a knowing we all have a gut, we all have that thing the problem is, is that disordered eating obsession with food, puts that in the ICU and sugar addiction absolutely puts it in the ICU, you can't find your intuition when you're deep in an addiction, they they're just the addiction will always be louder than the intuition. That's why you got to put those sorts of things into remission. So you can tap into the truest part of yourself. It's all in there, you know.

Chase: I feel like that is going to be what we'll talk about in part two, I can tell I would love to have you back in the future the whole spiritual component of our behavior of behavior change of our lifestyle or diet or relationships. There's something special there.

Molly: I always say this thing Chase, which is, it's like once you know what works for you, but the food the rest really is about trying to stay in your wise mind. You know what I mean? And there's no binging in your wise mind is what's true, right? If I'm really living in my highest self like, you can pass me those cookies and I know that Don't work for me. And like it's not an issue. It's about when I'm spiritually unsound. I need something to, you know, me and bring me down and bring me to that safe place of lower self that I know so well. I could talk about it all day. 

Chase: I love it. I love it what you're describing, it's kind of like I get this. I'm not even a big Star Wars fan. But I imagine it's kind of having that that Jedi Master mindset of just, this doesn't serve me. Yeah, there's no battle. There's, it's not even a question. You just look at it. And there's a knowing this internal knowing of yes or no.

Molly: that's my whole life. I'm like people like how do you do it? I'm like, it's just not my food. Like, it's not even that personal. It's just not on like, that doesn't work with me. Like I don't I don't crave it, because it doesn't work. Now my food, not my food. That's my big thing, not my food.

Chase: Well, I want to get back to a question here. Kind of wrapping up the whole this whole diet aspect. You talked about how the cost of diet and particularly diet failure is high. And I think this is something that where people don't fully realize it's, it's not like putting the cart before the horse, it's people are getting the horse and they don't realize, you know, there's a card, there's another component, when you embark down a diet, you're either going to be successful or not, you're either going to maintain it or not. And is that not part the diet failure that, if I understand correctly, you believe is just too high of a cost for people when it comes to trying to just keep up a diet all the damn time.

Molly: I mean, and I think just for whatever it's worth, like, it comes at a cost to your endocrine system to like, it comes at a cost to your belief in yourself, it comes at a cost to your core beliefs, like, you know, it comes to cost of trying to get up again and do the thing again, and the shame of it all. But there's actually a lot of like endocrine research that supports how that's like why when people I'll say to people if we don't if you don't change your beliefs, breaking up with sugar is just a diet and I'm supported by a billion coaches and not coaches saying let's do a seven day cleanse. It's like, day eight, then what? Right like and the problem is on day eight people like yeah, doughnuts, and then we're back in that terrible demoralized cycle again, until the next minute that your pants don't fit. Or you have that moment of grace, where you can say something I really need help. It's like, this is just so unnecessary, in many ways, like research moment, you know, the research really supports we get an incredible high from restricting incredible high. And it also is acute for many of us a cue to our brain, the minute we restrict that they our brain knows it's going to be getting a reward of binging later. I mean, it's just like, it's messy.

Chase: Oh, wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it. And the floodgates?

Molly: Yeah, my like my brains like don't eat breakfast. Let's not do Yeah, skip lunch, can't wait, can't wait for 11pm. Right?

Chase: Well, this has been an incredible conversation around I mean, really diving into just the emotional side, the spiritual side of our nutrition choices, our diet, this, this kind of bad guy and in diet, culture, sugar. It's just the data is there, the personal experience is there. And I love your point, really, of just, I don't think we'll find anyone who will say sugar is good for you.

Molly: on all sugar diet, I mean, count me in like all go clean prisons, like I'm fine. Like, if that goes out, count me in on it, like 100% It's just, it's toxic. And I think we're just, you know, listen, like, it's a lot of people solutions. So we don't want to think it's a problem. I mean, that means we have to change how we do birthday parties. 

Chase: It's a lifestyle, really, and it's a it's part of our culture, it's part of our community is part of how we're raised. And I mean, that's the whole multifaceted this, the onion layers, that is us. That is our diet. That is why we do what we do and how there's so many other components here. And it's just a kind of understanding and chipping away at all of them until we can decide, you get an empowered state, like we're talking about earlier. 

Molly: I just want to say to like, in my lifetime, I never thought that I wouldn't eat sugar anymore, right? It's just like the benefits so outweigh the giving up of it. It's unbelievable and I think that it's not I don't just feel this way, like I have a Facebook group with 1000s of I like I just there's so many people I know that and it's like alcohol in that way. And I think sugar is very like alcohol just in a non-abstinent way. Like, where there's people who can absolutely use it recreationally as recreational drugs are supposed to be used. And there's some feet like I have a godson is like has three bites. He's like, I'm good. I'm like, oh my god, that's amazing with sugar you can’t recreationally use it responsibly and it has either emotional, physical, spiritual, or all three effects on us and you know, mostly eliminating it is usually the answer. Just you can never know. It's like that's the whole the trigger has on you. It's like don't feel exactly what are you gonna do at the party?

Chase: Well, understanding these things in our life and our communities and our lifestyle and our diet, and then becoming more educated about them, and then becoming more empowered, and then taking action on them, is what I talked about here on the show. And this is what I mean when I say, moving forward in life, living a life ever forward. But I always am curious, what does that mean to my guests after we've been talking about some really amazing components here to our nutrition into our life? Living a life ever forward? What does that mean to you? How does that fall on you here today?

Molly: I would say for me, it's all I believe, I'm a seeker in a big way. And so I believe it's like my job in life is to keep the most open mind that exists. And when I watch myself shut down and say, no, no, it's almost my cue to open bigger, right? Because there's something going on within me that's saying, like that shutting down. That's, that's getting closed minded. You know, I think for me, having an open mind about everything and listen, in our world right now. That's like, what we all need that other ring and the toxic tribalism in every area, including diet culture, I think it's always about staying open. Because when my vision is 180, I can see a lot more possibilities and miracles and hope and help, then when my vision is like a 1%. And I'm like, no, it has to be this one way. So I think that's what moving forward means to me is just trying to keep as open minded as possible.

Chase: Keeping 180 vision. I like that. I like that. I'm going to take that. I like that interpretation. Thank you so much. 

Chase: For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode show notes or head to everforwardradio.com