EFR 537: Holy Sh*t We're Alive! Now What? Spiritual Explorations in the Pursuit of the Meaning of Life with Doug Cartwright

Chase: Now what this book came into my life recently, you came into my life recently. And just, it could not have been better timing for a lot of different reasons that we'll definitely dive into. But I loved how you started the book off just giving a very high level kind of, hey, here's a brief history of humanity, the space the cosmos. Why did you feel as necessary to kind of start literally out of this world before diving into the personal stories in here?

Doug: Yeah, I always thought I call it the cosmic perspective, right? Because we get so we look at our life so close. Like we think we're the center of the universe. We think we're the center of the lives, we're kind of the main character in this play that we're, that we call life. And the intention behind zooming out really, really big, is to help people understand that it's like, Wait, it might not be all about me, it's not about me, it's not about me. I'm a participant in this grand cosmic arena. And really just helping people understand, like the scientific probability, like I don't go woo at the beginning, but like very much like just the straight science, just the scientific probability of being alive. It's zero. I mean, it's not possible. And so I am trying to foster a sense of gratitude and depth of the human experience, so that we can move into kind of a deeper appreciation, appreciation for our lives and kind of being on the planet.

Chase: Where did all that stem from for you? Where, where, when, why and how did you look literally out of this world into the ether for understanding, kind of getting out of your own self?

Doug: Yeah, so I was, you know, my life building up, you know, my life completely changed. I shared in the book when I was, you know, in my late 20s, on June 10 2017 there's the fun date and we'll get into that.

Chase: Well, I won't do a spoiler alert. I was like, no shit. That came full circle.

Doug: So we started once I started working in the psychedelic medicine, plant space. I had an experience on Ayahuasca one night, where I felt like I zoomed so far out, like I was in the cosmos. And really kind of feeling that cosmic perspective that I'm trying to share the beginning of my book. And after that experience, he left me so kind of raw and vulnerable. I actually was like, I'm gonna turn to science like, what in the actual hell is going on? Like, what is going on? So I'm gonna ask the scientists what they think is going on. And so I read a lot of science books and you know, a lot of Neil deGrasse Tyson lectures in the cosmos and really like, this vulnerability of me being like, holy shit, we're alive, given the circumstances.

Chase: now a big part of your story is rooted in in faith and rooted in religion and rooted in Latter Day Saints and Mormonism and when you were looking at that that upbringing and looking at this kind of new experience outside have that belief system outside of the church? Can you kind of walk us through the friction that I'm sure you had in questioning literally how you were raised and what you thought to be true?

Doug: Yeah, the thing that's so difficult about leaving Mormonism is that were ingrained. So I grew up in Utah, I grew up, you know, kind of the Mormon hub, I grew up in kind of a white, upper middle class, conservative family, and everyone in my neighborhood in my community, was the same religion doing the same thing. So it was very much like laid out for you, like, this is what you're supposed to do. And in church on Sundays, from a little kid, you're taught, this is what happened before you came to Earth. This is why you're on Earth. And then if you are obedient and follow the laws of Christ. This is what happens after you die. And so it's like, instilled in you is a very young age. And so you build these programs and these models of the world growing up and so

Chase: there's not even any room to question because they've laid everything out

Doug: You know, the Mormon church is very black and white. Yeah, that's very black and white. This is right, this is wrong. This is why we're here. This is what happens if you don't if you aren't obedient, you know. And so there's no,

Chase: there's no, what if, yeah,

Doug: all the hard questions are answered for you. So you're never really challenged to think for yourself, because it's already been done for you. And so, where a lot of the friction was, was, you know, for me, my faith transition, leaving Mormonism that was a lot of like, the history of the church and some things I didn't really agree with. And so I can't What can you think of an example? Yeah, just you know, really diving into the history of Joseph Smith and how he had, you know, multiple wives and married a 14 year old and, you know, there's some other I don't want to go too deep into the I don't want to speak in Mormon pockets, but there's some things that just weren't lined. Okay. Yeah. Right. And, and so, but that what I wasn't prepared for leaving the Mormon church was I'm like, okay, yeah, the Mormon church just doesn't evolve. This doesn't really resonate with me. But I wasn't prepared to deal with the deep rooted subconscious programming of like, Wait, if the Mormon church isn't true, then what the actual hell is going on right now?

Chase: Is anything true? 

Doug: why am I on this rock orbiting a star in the middle of infinity, and I have no clue what's going on. It was terrifying. So it actually created a deep existential crisis in me of like, I remember specifically, there was when I, where I live, I live in a town in Utah called Sugar House. And it's kind of like a new kind of like, up and coming lively neighborhood. And I live in this building. That over that's right in the heart of the city. So there's restaurants and bars and coffee shops below me and I have this really nice patio. And I can actually just peek over the edge of my patio. And I can see like the restaurants and people walking and spending time and walking their dog and it's like a little splash zone. And I remember one night leaning over and I'm watching like life happen, like I have this bird's eye perspective on top of it. And I just like Mormonism many Earth view. And I felt like it was like looking down on earth and people just living their lives. And I remember then looking up into the scar, this the sky and looking at the stars. And just seeing the cosmic perspective, right, kind of similar to the, to the cover the cover here, literally that that, that that boy just looking up like this. And I'm just like, what in the hell is going on? Like, how did this all happen? Like, why am I in this meat suit? And I have these thoughts and preferences and people are just going about their business, and not understanding why or whatever. And they're just like following this. It was just like, I was just suffering from a deep spiritual awakening. And that caused me I'm like, well, shit, I have no clue. Let's look at the science books. Let's start there. You know, because Mormonism, cheers. Let's see what this the scientists are, say what's going on? And so that was that was a moment. I remember, I'll never forget that moment on my path being like, what the hell's going on? It was it was scary. It was a scary feeling.

Chase: So you, like anybody in any kind of transformational experience it first starts with awareness, right? And kind of this awareness of wait, what do I believe? Do I believe the things that I brought up to believe what's right, what's wrong? What's the universe? Who am I? And then you kind of not to give all the details away, you definitely check out the book, but you definitely set out on your own path. And it was interesting to me to read about your journey because it was one that not to downplay any of your experiences, but like I've heard this a million times before. And it's I think it's unique in the fact that I've heard that a million times because it's so unique to human nature, that when we begin to question things, we step out on our own bath, which is great, and we seek almost entirely the opposite of everything we ever had. And you had success, fame, fortune, women travel, front row sports seats, and all this stuff, but yet that wasn't giving you fulfillment; why?

Doug: Yeah, and I think what happened was, I think our lives are all based on stories we tell ourselves, right. And I had multiple moments where I created a new narrative and a new story about my life. The first one was when I was in second grade, that I talked about in the book. But you know, when you're second grade, you're not self-aware, you're not comparing you're not, you know, sizing yourself up to everyone else. But I was chubby, I was overweight kid. And in second grade, I was teased for it by a fifth grader. And I remember I mean, I wasn't consciously making this connection. But I told myself that like, oh, something's wrong with me, like I'm being made fun of I must be something wrong with me. And because something's wrong with me, I'm not normal and now I have to prove why I should fit in. Well, I have to prove my worth. Well, because obviously, I'm broken. Yeah, I'm not normal. And so that really created a narrative in my head, where it's like, I now have to go hustle around to try and fit in. And I would, and I created a lot of cool mechanisms that worked for me, like being funny and being nice, and, you know, mechanisms to override that deep, you know, belief that I was unlovable to fit in to fit it right. And so that kind of led me through elementary and junior high in high school, and then kind of tapping back in the Mormon thing. There's this coming of age ritual for Mormon men, when you're 18. You go serve in a mission, you know, so if anyone who's seen the Book of Mormon musical, there's the elders, right? But I was an elder. So I, you know, it's like this, you're 18 it's like you're there's this huge expectation for you to go on your mission, and the narrative and the churches. Go serve a worthy full time mission, and your kind of reward for coming home and being honorably being an honorable missionary is a beautiful girl will want to marry you, and you get married in the temple and then have kids and then you'll live in God's highest kingdom for eternity.

Chase: all these predefined forms of success, right, you will get

Doug: exactly if you if you're obedient and do what we say. So leading up to my mission, there's a standard of worthiness that you're supposed to live by in your day to day, so like no sex, no, no caffeine, no alcohol, no, no, no drugs, no pornography, whatever it may be. And so you have to live like this really high standard for months before you actually leave. So I got my mission call on October, to Auckland, New Zealand, which I was stoked about, like, oh, I hit the freaking lottery designer. Yeah. And then it's okay. And now I need to have perfect behavior before I leave in February. And I had a girlfriend at the time. So and I was right on track. Everything was on pace. I had the big farewell party had you know, the I spoke at church and said goodbye to everyone. I had like cleaned out my apartment. Like I wasn't enrolling in school I had sold my car like said goodbye to everyone.

Chase: like the village champion, going off.

Doug: Yeah, just like cheering me off. Right. And, you know, the attitude before I left, I was with my girlfriend say goodbye to her. And of course, you know, it's like this big, intimate moment. Goodbye. See you in two years. And we broke the rules, where we were intimate. We got too intimate, according to the rules. And I remember after that night, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't come clean now. Because I've already said goodbye, like, everything's already done. It's all wrapped up. And so I buried that shame, right? tucked it in. And later, nine months later on my mission, I was a really good missionary. And I loved my mission, but the shame and the guilt of hiding, the secret was building and building and building inside of me. And so finally, I decided to come clean. And I didn't think I was gonna get sent home for it. Because I didn't think it was because we did like didn't have sags but like we broke the rules. And so I confessed on my mission. And they actually sent me home. So I got kicked out my mission. 

Chase: what did they actually say to you in that moment? What like, what, what were the repercussions? 

Doug: so the way the conversation went was I called my mission president. So there's like a leader of the mission. And I call them and I'm like, hey, there's something I want to get off my chest. You know, a couple things I didn't clean up before I came out. And I had a girlfriend and you know, XYZ happened yada, yada. It's like, well, I need to talk to the authorities about this. And I was like, oh, really the brethren is what they call them back in Salt Lake. And I'm like, okay, like, and so I didn't hear from him for like two or three days. And then I get a call from him. And he's like, hey, I need you to come into the office and as soon as he said that I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm getting sent home. And I'm like, yeah, this is this is not good. So I drive to his office and sit down and he's like, hey, I talked to the brother and the brethren and we feel like it's in your best interest here you need to go home and repent of your sins and come clean. And if you have six months of perfect behavior back home, then you can come back and finish.

Chase: What you just said is so profound. Sorry to interrupt your story there but I think it just paints another piece to this, this this story, this narrative of not only was so much all of your life built for you ahead of time, but in your own confession, trying to make amends to do the right thing in your mind, like they were still deciding for you what was in your best interest, right? Did you feel like it was in your best interest? Or did you feel at that time like this was just another way that the people above me this this this religion, this organization was just choosing my life for me?

Doug: You know, it's an interesting question, because I felt I do remember feeling a sense of relief. Interesting, I'm going home. But there was also a lot of shame tied to it too, because that was, I didn't realize it in that moment. It wasn't until I later I came home that I realized, oh, this is the first time in my life where I'm not like, the king of the community, like the champion, golden child that was captain of the football team, our student body vice president, I was well known in my neighborhood. And you know, in the church, they call it wards were going on, which is a section of community, they'll go to the same church. And I was kind of like the poster child. And this was the first time where it's like, I had screwed up, screwed up, and the community saw it. And it was public. And everyone knew, so I was like, Oh, wait, like, so now I'm dealing with this story. Like, I'm the fact that I don't have to prove myself to fit in. And now another story is like, Oh, I don't fit into my community, and my church. So now I have to like double down and earn, and hustle and grind to be accepted. And so I get sent home. And I feel like I did it very well. And what's my intention when I got home was like, Okay, I'm going to do my six months of perfect behavior, and then go finish. Like, I'm gonna go finish what I started, you know, and not too long after I get sent home. You know, the Universe works in very mysterious ways. My dad gets diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. So then I'm like, okay, that put my whole world upside down. Because I was really, really, really close with my dad. And I'm actually now looking back at it I'm extremely grateful I got sent home because I got to spend that time with that time with him. His last really good year, where he was healthy and golfing, we got to go on trips, like, I got that time with him. And what's interesting is, shortly after that he died. So he died 13 months after he was diagnosed. And I remember a night or two before he died, my mom and I were sitting outside of his door. And he's, he's not conscious. I mean, he's, he's gone. He's on his last leg, and she puts her arm around me at the base of the stairs. And I feel this emotion started just flying up threw me like despair, and sadness and grief and overwhelming, you know, it was scary. And confusion, you know, me and my dad were extremely close. He was my idol. And I started sobbing uncontrollably all for about three seconds, because then I cut it off. And I'm like, Nope, I need to be strong. I need to be the tough guy. Like I don't, I'm not allowed to feel this. Yeah, I'm not allowed to cry, that's weak. Don't be weak in front of mom, she needs strength right now. Like, you need to be the tough guy. And so I just took all those emotions, and just shove them like, deep, deep, deep down inside of me. And so it's stacking on, it's like, okay, I don't fit in. Because I'm fat. It's like, I don't fit in my community guy, because my mission, my dad just died. And I have grief. And I'm not doing that. So they're like, there's this emotion says, festering inside of me with nowhere to go. And it was just like this tank, just building, building about to blow.

Chase: I want to pick your brain a little bit about that situation, because we actually have that in common. I lost my father as well as 19 years old. It was about an 18 month diagnosis when he was pronounced terminal with Lou Gehrig's disease. But I couldn't, or I didn't go home, I was already off doing my own thing. I had just joined the military; I was away from the first time from home. And although I actually tried, I was going to go home and get out of my service my father wound up talking me out of it to not stop the beginning of my life. Because his was ending. And everything you just described at the end of that experience was what I felt as well. Even though you were there, right? You had that time with him. And that was something that I always was, like, regretful of and wished I was wanted to be there with him. I wanted to be there for my family. I was the oldest son I you know, I went I needed to be there for my mom, my family and all these things. So it's really interesting to me that although we had different experiences, watching our fathers die or heroes die, we both still ended up at that same kind of sensation, feeling emotions. Do you think is that just human nature is that as we go through life, we have these similar experiences and no matter what we're all just going to wind up going through the same emotions when there's especially death and grief involved? 

Doug: yeah I think it's really just a testament to the love we had for our father. Right, like we have with someone important to you leaves, it's gonna cause the heart to feel those intense emotions. And I think it's a tribute to him that I did feel so much grief and sadness, you know, because if someone were, you know, someone you don't care about or was, you know, hurtful to you or cause trauma were to pass or might be moments of celebration for some people, right. But the fact that I was able to feel, you know, I was I wasn't consciously aware of this moment, but like, when you feel such a deep loss of someone, I mean, that's such a positive sign that you have a connection with them. And so I think it was such an honor and tribute to him. And I'm grateful that my heart can feel that low.

Chase: Right. Interesting. That's an interesting point, grateful that my heart can feel that low. Could you expand a little bit more on that? That strong sense of gratitude.

Doug: Yeah, I think, you know, I'm just really the whole human experience, man I'm really grateful for and I have this incredible mind where I can think thoughts and be creative and get new ideas. And then I have this thing called My heart where I can feel really intense emotions, I can feel real blissed out ecstasy, joy, enthusiasm, love, and I can feel deep despair, and loss and sadness. And the whole spectrum of feeling your emotions is what really makes being human so special.

Chase: That's human experience. One on one. Absolutely. Yeah. It really is. And then I'm curious, was it the grief of the loss of your father that was that the primary driver towards plant medicines and psychedelics and things like that?

Doug: I wouldn't say was the primary driver because what happened right after that was okay, it's like, okay, now I'm this 20 year old kid, my dad just died. I don't belong in my church. I'm the fat kid, I don't belong. I mean, I need to figure out a way how to provide value for the world and prove to people live at it. Okay. And that's what led me to my business success. So I found I found door to door sales. I know it sounds crazy, but it's a really fascinating industry, where these young kids can make insane amount of money

Chase: and you crush it. You're a millionaire by 24? 

Doug: 24. And I had a downline underneath me. So I was making money on my team. Plus, I became a company sales trainer. Plus, I was crushing it as an individual sales. I was a top rep every single year. And my thought process was like, Okay, well, since I don't belong, and I don't want to deal with the death of my father. I know society values, money and wealth. So if I can make a bunch of money, and then show you that I have a bunch of money, then you can validate me, there's my worth, there's my worth. Yeah. 100%. So you I've made a bunch of money and I spent a bunch of money. So like, obviously, I'm this young kid. First stop is Mercedes Benz dealership and buying the C 63 AMG, you know, $160,000 car. I'm going first class traveling the world. I'm a big sports guy. So it's like, I'll go to every major sporting event and go to the club. And you know, I remember I spent like, $30,000, one weekend in Phoenix because I was going to the club I went to VIP Drake. It was a Super Bowl. I was getting a box suite next to Kevin Durant and Dan Snyder's Super Bowl sweet. And just, I mean, it was great. And now all I'm doing is like, Okay, I got to go to this really cool, then I have to post about it. And the world needs to see the world needs to see like, please see me. Like, please see me like, look what I've done. Please see me as all I'm screaming. Obviously, it wasn't making that connection at the time. And like, I remember, so silly, like being in my early 20s matching with a girl like on a dating app. And then the first date is I'll pick up my $100,000 Mercedes and then we're going to have a multiple $100 dinner and provide providing floor seats to the Utah Jazz to him multiple times. I mean, multiple $1,000 On a first date.

Chase: who starts like that, there's nowhere to go after that,

Doug: if we got if we got a second or third date, it literally was like, Hey, wake up early Saturday morning, we'll fly into La go to Disneyland for the demo flight on that night. It was just all I was trying to prove was like, Hey, I have something of value. I have money, like I can take care of you. So like, please love me back because I felt the grief of my dad dying. I don't fit into my community. I don't fit into my church. I'm the fat kid. And they fell victim to what I what I coined in the book is this the success void. Right. So the success what is if I were to give you chase a resume of my life, it was just you're just reading out on paper, you would read it like, Oh, this guy is successful. Right? Car money, Job Status, girls, whatever. But there's that deep void. And I was in this spot for probably two or three years. I remember where the first time I was consciously aware that something was wrong, was right after that Superbowl weekend with Kevin Durant in the Super Bowl. It was the Super Bowl where the Seahawks threw the interception at the one yard line. So it's like one of the greatest big deal, one of the greatest Super Bowls ever. Right? And, you know, two weeks later The NBA All Star game was in New York. So I'm like, well, obviously, I have to go and post a picture that I'm there. And I remember flying to New York from Salt Lake City. And I had this moment where I'm thinking, I'm like, the only reason I'm going to this game is so I can take a picture and post it on Instagram, 

Chase: you were that aware of it ahead of time.

Doug: That was the first time I realized that and I remember being like, I am miserable. Like, this is not the life I want to live. I don't even want to go to New York. It's February. It's freezing cold, like, don't really care about the NBA All Star game. I'm just going for the status to show people that I'm going. And I went and of course, I got a picture. And I think Kevin Hart and Nicki Minaj are in it. And I'm just like, you know, remember that book. And I did it. And but it was just like, I was trying to find something external to solve an internal problem. And I was just lost on this wheel. And then things started change shortly after. So the transition really into plant medicine was, I'll never forget, I'm starting to kind of like, open up to new ideas. I'm like, church isn't working. My job's not working. Like I don't love myself. And that in the advice I was getting from my mentors at the time, was go make more money. And at this time, I wasn't making like crazy money. I wasn't I didn't have like jet status money. But they were like, you're doing fine. I was doing great. Yeah, I was doing for my age group I was in like, the half of 1% but the advice I was getting was like, go make more. And I'm like, I don't think that's going to help, you know, because I had that for you know, that that point, maybe seven, eight years? And I'm like, I don't know if that's the right, right answer.

Chase: So you were still I just want to keep painting this, this picture of from birth, childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, from religion. And now this this new world that you were finding in sales, it was still always someone else saying, here's how we define success. Here's the path that you need to be on. And it finally seemed like it was clicking for you that, okay, in the church, it wasn't working for me out here in the secular world, it's still not working for me. So is this really when, like, the internal self became more aware.

Doug: And the thing that's tricky about that is that the external world, getting materialistic things are money, I'm not saying money is bad by any means. Like, I want to make a lot right? Money, you totally can. But if you're using it to solve an internal problem, something external to solve an internal problem, you're never going to get fulfilled. But the thing that's tricky about it is that it actually works for a very short time, you get that quick hit. Right. So that's what keeps you going back. And so I get these little quick hits, and it kind of get this little rush for a second, that would fade. But really, at this point, you know, it's the subtitle of my book. Now what, whereas I'm at this point in my life, it's like, I've done X, I've done y, I've done Z, I've done everything you've told me to do. I've done everything I was supposed to do. And it's like,

Chase: where's the fulfillment? Where's the internal sense of it?

Doug: And so I decided to kind of look in different directions. And I came across books, like, no new Earth by Eckhart Tolle, and I mean, I'm very much like toxic masculine bro at this point, you know, very bro-y. And so like yoga and meditation and spirituality. Were just like, no, that's weird, hippie shit. I'm not.

Chase: I'm not crunchy enough for that. 

Doug: that's not my stuff. And so I very, I got lean into it very slowly. Over time, my twin sister was a big inspiration for me, she's like, Hey, check out this book. And I would read it. And I'm like, wow, there's something going on here. And now there's a really cool story that I lead up. And I'll save time because of the podcast. But you know, in the book, I go through it very in detail. But a turning point was I came across a book called stealing fire. And that's all about flow state, like how to get into the zone, whether you're an athlete or a performer, and musician, and you're just in the zone, and everything comes naturally to you. So in my head, I'm thinking, Oh, sales, I want to get more in flow state for sales. So I picked up that book with the intention of like, becoming a better salesman, and it gets to a part of the book where they talk about psychedelics. And growing up Mormon in Utah. At that time, you're taught that like, every drug is basically black tar heroin, and if you do it one time, they'll get addicted, and then you'll be homeless, and then you will die.

Chase: Same thing over here in the Southern Baptists house. Yeah, it's like the same upbringing. 

Doug: totally like this big blanket on drugs and that everything is bad. And if you do it once, it's like you're going to hell. But they and in the book, they talk about psychedelics referring to psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, MDMA, and DMT, slash Ayahuasca. And I'll never forget reading a part of the book when they quote Steve Jobs when he says doing LSD was one of the most profound experiences of my life. And I'm like,

Chase: what, who doesn't want to take a page out of his book? Right?

Doug: Yeah, I mean, it's Steve Jobs. He's like the probably the world's most renowned, famous, influential artist. For newer of humankind, sure, yeah, right. He's up there. So here's someone that is idolized, change the way we live forever. And he's talking about positive experiences using these compounds and just rattles the brain.

Chase: Yeah, I'm with you this so many times, when I first started looking into plant medicine, psychedelics, I would hear read, listen, watch. Yeah, heroes, idols, people, mentors, friends, colleagues that were just talking about it in a way that could not be further from the opposite of my original beliefs of your programming. Exactly. Right, exactly. What was that? Like? What was it? What's it like hearing, reading something from someone that you've been looking up to? That you never would have guessed would come from them? That was so jarring to how you're programmed how we were raised.

Doug: I remember feeling this deep. I remember where I was, when I read that part. I was on that patio. Yeah, like I was talking about. And I remember feeling this pole deep in the core of my being like, I have to try this. I have to. And I remember being like, I'm so like, nothing else I've, I've tried in the world has worked. Like I have to see what's here. And I remember thinking like, if it's not for me, I can close that door. But I have to open up this door. And just peek. What's going on? I have to know for myself. And per the universe. You know, two weeks later, I'm at a party, a cabin party. And my buddy who had who from high school hadn't seen in years is just like, Hey, Doug, you know, good to see you what's going on blah, blah, blah. By the way, we have MDMA here if you're interested. And I'm like, I've never been offered drugs in my life other than marijuana. And I read this. And now you're offering me this. And I remember thinking like, I have to have to do it. And this is where the part where it's unexplainable, like this next part about explain, it's like It's unexplainable. It's not common. So I take MDMA at this party. And my experience that night was not common with MDMA. So it was I I'm not saying this is capital T truth. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm not saying I'm Almighty, but the way I interpreted my experience was I got through the veil of life, and I saw the other side. And I wasn't hallucinating was actually like piercing it and natural common conversation, and I was seeing energy in the sky. And I was seeing clearly for the first time. Like, there's, it's really hard to I can't explain it, because aren't human words for it? But I could see people's auras. I didn't know what an aura was at the time. I could see the light systems up on people and I met a like spirit guide, who then like, showed me how I interpret it. Like what the purpose of life is. Wow. And I remember going out onto the balcony at this party and seeing you know, it's it was up in the mountains, and it overlooks a lake. And I remember seeing the lake and seeing the earth soul breathe. Yeah. Yeah, I remember being like, Oh, Mother Earth. And so my initial thought was like, Oh, the hippies were right. Holy shit, the hippies were right, the whole time. They knew. And I'm kind of like in this mystical, Fifth Dimension experience. And then all of a sudden, I felt the love of the Creator for the first time. And it was like this massive beam of light that just completely engulfed me. And I remember feeling it as if I was the most important beautiful creature that ever existed in the entire universe. And I kind of looking down stuff and then I look up and then I'm like, oh, everyone is the most beautiful cared after creation and you know, God's universe. And I didn't have to earn it. There was no checklist because in the Mormonism you're taught that was huge. It was like I am worthy of infinite love exactly how I am immediately regardless, and it wasn't like it was just like, instant like, right on top of me.

Chase: Not only regardless, but especially because of who you are. 

Doug: no checklist there was no if you do this, then you get love. Or if you're obedient, then you get love. Or if you go on a two year mission, then you get love. Or if you follow my case, it was who you are here now. Infinite, indescribable, overwhelming bliss out ecstasy, love for all time.

Chase: I can relate 100% Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, for everyone, for everyone.

Doug: No matter what you've done, where you are, what's going on every single human has that access, and is worthy of that love. 

Chase: So in a moment, quite literally one moment, your entire paradigm not to put words in your mouth. Your entire belief system was flipped on its head blown into confetti, but then also somewhat simultaneously. You knew that to be your new truth.

Doug: There's no way I couldn't deny what happened. It was the most real thing that's ever happened that wherever I went, I don't know where I went. But whatever that dimension was, is way more real than this is real. It's way more relevant and I can't explain that. And there's no way there's no words for it. But I can't deny that that. And I'm very open to saying like, maybe that was just a weird chemical reaction that happened to my brain. Sure, maybe quite literally, that's what's going on. That's what happened. Sure. And maybe I had a hallucination or whatever. And maybe that's what drugs do. But the results and the understanding and the learning from that experience has completely enhanced and deepened the richness and love of my human experience on that and for that I'm eternally grateful for. So to me, it doesn't matter if that really happened or not. If it's true or not, doesn't matter. 

Chase: I love that, before we go further, because I really want to dive into because you had a profound experience with Ayahuasca and further experiences with plant medicine. Yeah, set setting intention and really want to get there. But you've, you've mentioned a few times already, I forget exactly what you said was like, as the universe does, or so the universe, they it was just kind of like a calling. It wasn't anything that you were pushing for striving for. But when you began to just pay the tiniest bit attention to your life, more importantly, what you wanted out of your life and for your life, and how you were defining love and fulfillment and acceptance. It's kind of like the universe was like, okay, he's finally ready to listen. And it whispered at you. And you said a few times, I felt pulled, it wasn't a force, it wasn't as an external thing, that for me, and I really want to drive this home for the listener, I think it's one of the most profound life lessons we can ever pick up on. And knock on wood, like it hasn't led me astray yet. Whenever I lean into a pulling sensation, I'll initially made a little friction because it's changed. But then on the other side of that is just everything. So can you kind of walk us through a little bit more of define that pole? Define that feeling? How did you just lean into and trust something that you couldn't quite explain, but you just felt like it was the right thing?

Doug: Yeah, I think everyone listening can comprehend or relate to one of those words, whether it's intuition, or the poll, or the whisper, or the gut feeling or intuition. And it's not enough to recognize it. You have to jump. And that's really, really, really, really scary.

Chase: Please say that again.

Doug: Yeah, you have to jump. It's not it's more than just listening to it; you have to jump. And one of my superpowers, I feel like I'm what I'm encouraging people in the book is to when you get the nudge, go, right, go. And it's proven to me and it's really scary. Like, I remember being having moments of panic, when I was like, leaving the church and leaving my career and like getting into drug quote, unquote, drugs. I'm like, this is really scary. Like, I'm, my whole worldview is getting flipped upside down. And I feel like I'm having an existential crisis, and I'm about to lose my shit. But I know, there's something for me here. And I have to go.

Chase: talk about a dichotomy of emotions.

Doug : Yeah. So is there I mean, you know, the book was great. And but I have to say, there's, there was periods of my life that were really, really, really scary. Like, there was moments of, I have to check myself into a psych ward, I need mental health, you know, help, you know, like, because I feel like I'm losing my mind. And no one gets relates to me. But I know that I need to keep going. And that's been my examples are very, very intense. But because this whole journey is proven to be worth it for me. I now have cement in my brain where it's like, The universe provides it. And it's proven it to me, it proved it. So no matter anytime I feel the pole or, you know, the nudge. I know I can trust it, because I did it in my life. And it gave me very, very positive results.

Chase: worth it for you. That I think is a key marker because it's okay, we're going to pay attention to the whispers of the universe. We're going to lean into this nudge this intuition, this feeling this pulling. And then along the way, I think the scary part beyond will everything's fucking scary. Definitely. But beyond that point, it's how do I know how do I put in place these benchmarks, these markers for success? Did you know then how did you know that you were not only just leaning in the right direction but did you ever in if so how? stop, pause, take a look back and like okay, yes. Like this is a marker for success. I not only know that I'm leaning into it, because it feels right. But yes, this is an ROI for me. That's a struggle point. I think for a lot of people, how do I know? 

Doug: you don’t ever know. I don't think you know, but I realized that you can't predict the path. And I think what happens is people have these ideas of how they think life is going to unfold, and they try and manipulate and force it to look a specific way. So Prime example releasing this book. I have no clue what it's going to do. But I know I feel that I needed to put it out there because it's going to open up a door for me. There's going to you know, enhance the richness of my life. I've no idea when that's gonna come or who's going to read or what's going on but I know it that's going to happen So I have no clue. But I know that you can predict the path and when we surrender to the universe's flow of life, and you know, and that's our talk, by the end of my book, like, just being on this planet, we have beautiful beaches and mountain ranges. And you put a seed in the ground with dirt and water, and it provides the food for you to give you the nutrition so you can survive on the planet, like the Earth, the Sun is perfectly far enough to keep the planet warm and perfectly far enough where it's not too cold. And there's a magnetic force field around the planet that blocks deadly solar rays. Like,

Chase: let that just sink in for a second. Like what the actual hell

Doug: life knows what it's doing. Yeah, so to think that my 32 year old monkey brain can figure it out. And silly, right, but I trust the flow of life. Like if you removed every human off planet Earth, this planet would thrive, life always finds a way, right? Well, like it'd be a thriving planet, you take away all the plants. We're toast, right? And so the planet has this beautiful ecosystem that we don't have to pay someone or no one's running it, like there isn't a company running it. It just does it. And so I trust the flow of life. And that includes my life choices and options. And there's been too many weird synchronicities and coincidences of meeting people in your life at the right place at the right time, to not trust it. And so one thing that I try and get out of my own way of thinking of how the map needs to be, so I really focus on it. You know, one of my favorite quotes is big goals held loosely. So I've got big goals in life, like I want to, you know, I want to accomplish a lot. But the way I'm going to get there, no clue. I have no idea. So I'm just worried about getting to the next step point.

Chase: I love that I'm with you. I'm big pie in the sky kind of guy have very clear visions and understandings of what the life that I want for myself, my family, the future humanity, I work towards that but the actual steps the process is just like, I'm along for the ride. 

Doug: you have to put in the work. You have to put in the work, but don't be attached to the specific path, the way to get there.

Chase: So I want to get into when you really jumped into the work. When you went to do your Ayahuasca ceremony? And in the book, you talk about this and our pre interview coffee meetup A while ago, you said the same thing to me. And that's the first night the first experience the most gut wrenching, tearing out your soul experience just presenting you with just God knows what. The second night you opt in to go through it again, because it was a little bit more graceful. You're able to kind of like, learn and understand a bit more and it's not that just painful experience for the first time in the third night. Again, crazy man went back for more you use describe how you get something to take home. Break that further down for us, please. What was your experience? Why ayahuasca? What were the things that came up for you? And how did you go to that experience and walk away with like tangible things to apply for your life? And how did you know that to be true?

Doug: Yeah, ayahuasca is a very unique beast is very intense. It is very, for me at times overwhelming and confusing and scary. But I felt the call. I mean, I try I don't like to think that I'm a woo-woo guy. But one thing that I am woo in is that when it's your time for ayahuasca, like Mother Ayahuasca will come and get you. The plant will come and get you and you will know when it's your time. And I feel like I was called to the work. And it was just this deep knowing inside of me and just it was right after like my June 10 I had that first experience and then I just met happen to meet someone at a flow camp who worked with a shaman, a traditional Shaman from Amazon who'd been there for 20 years it wasn't like this fly by night ceremony was very traditional, and I would have access to a group like that in my backyard in Utah is so weird and so rare. My entry into ceremony to a traditional authentic safe ceremony was so seamless and like I didn't have to work for it like it just showed up at my door. And I remember like I have to do this and so I feel very grateful because you hear horror stories right of people getting into the medicine space and it's done in the wrong setting with the wrong intention with the wrong facilitators and things can go wrong and I mentioned you know a word of caution my book about that. But for me, I'm very grateful that I was able to find a true authentic safe setting. And so I went for and gave it a shot and my first night man holy smokes like destroyed me, like absolutely ripped out. 

Chase: don’t sugarcoat it, like paint a true your true experience here for us.

Doug: I remember taking the first so the first scary part of the night was actually I had taken my for you drink like a shot class worth of ayahuasca. And it's a tea. It's like fermented produce. And I remember drinking it. And I remember up into my point where it's my turn and everything I can back out, I can back out, I can back out. And so it's finally my turn. I'm like, you know what, I have to do this. So I drink it. And then it goes back, that was probably 12 to 15 people in that ceremony. And then it gets back to the shaman. And then he drinks one where they 

Chase: the guy facilitating joins in, who is the adult here?

Doug: and I was like, what, like, there's no one to like, there's no safety what happens if someone loses their shit? if someone's taking losing their shit. And so I was like, what? Like, oh, no, like, here we go. And but then I was like, you know, he's been on this for 20 years, he knows what he's doing. He does, you know, multiple weekends a year, like, I can trust this guy. So there we go, you know. And so it kind of starts kind of like mushroom, kind of like some fractals kind of felt like you're doing a heavy dose psilocybin, and then it just gets really kind of funky, weird, like, the fractals get more intense, the geometric patterns get more intense. And it's just like, almost like, I remember seeing and I don't share this in the book. But I remember seeing like this red dot, kind of like floating in the in the sky. And I was trying to figure out what meant and then I felt like I like my attention span caught on to it. And then it pulled me like through the veil, like a sniper dot and I remember seeing it. And I remember like, finally listening to the music and then like, joined in with the harmony of the music. And we're like writing the music waves of the ship of the shaman is playing. And then all of a sudden, it like, pulled me through reality. And so I like broke through the veil. And it was like, it was that that experience was cool, because I was like, holy shit. This is amazing. And like, incredible. And like I'm like, through the veil and seeing dimensions and connections and like, it's, it's a really weird and funky place that I'm not even to try and describe because, you know, I think it was Joe Rogan, you know, who said, to explain that space is like trying to explain a kaleidoscope to a blind man. 

Chase: wow, wow. Okay, it's just it'll leave it there.

Doug: It's so beyond what's going on in that other dimension is so it's like the inner workings of the universe. It's like the behind the scenes of creation. And it's so weird. But my initial kind of like, insights were powerful. It was like, you know, I was dealing with my fat kid stuff and, you know, dealing with a previous romantic relationship that I hadn't fully cleaned out, and then all of a sudden, I'm kind of like, going through my experience. And then the facilitator is like, hey, anyone who wants seconds, come up. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm and I'm definitely like in it.

Chase: I read this part in the book. I was like, no, no fucking way. This guy just jump back up. Yeah, just went for more.

Doug: Yeah. And so I could like, I couldn't even stand up straight. And so I crawled like army style to his altar. And I'm like, more, let's do another one. And he's like, okay, and so I take it and I crawl back to my mat. And it was just like this Oh, shit moment. Like I did like

Chase: it was I immediately regret this decision.

Doug: This was a bad idea. And things just in my mind, were getting really distorted and weird. And I was like, getting really confused and lost and like these geometric patterns of under and like weird alien stuff and like, entities and I know this sounds absolutely insane for someone who's never done it, but like, Mike, my mind started melting in a sense, and then I can like so grandmother. Ayahuasca is an entity like it's an actual living being okay. And you interact with the energy of the feminine energy of Mother Ayahuasca and she was basically telling me like, you screwed up like, you shouldn't have done that. You tethered into Pandora. Right? And she's like you, you will upon it, you will pay for that. Like you're you're impulsive your whole life, and you're gonna pay for that? Well, so immediately, here's your first lesson. Yeah. And so after that second, she like, almost like the best way to describe it. She grabbed me and ripped me out of planet Earth and put me in the middle of the deepest, darkest place in the universe. And I couldn't think any more like she disabled my brain. I like I knew I was conscious that I was dug and that I was doing Ayahuasca but I couldn't form a future thought. So I was almost like a vegetable. And I remember laying on the ground, completely on my back and I could see with my actual eyes, a helper that was there and meet like, desperately screaming and wanting like I to say I need help, but I couldn't physically move because I was in what I believe the wide term is like Ayahuasca prison. And I was like this literally that sunken place, literally the sunken place, and I was like frozen in time. And it was the most horrific, indescribable, like, think of your brain just turned off like it was just you can't I can't move. I can't, I can't form future thoughts. And I'm just like frozen in a one-time instant in space. And I would not wish that upon my worst enemy. Like it was so brutal. And I felt like I was there for eternity.

Chase: did that kind of click for you that hey, maybe everything that the church my upbringing was saying about this stuff is true. Was there ever a moment of like, holy shit regret Holy shit, they were right, like I am going to be damned for eternity. I'm not going to bounce back from that.

Doug: I was far away from that like that, that like that's like, cute kindergarten, first grade stuff. Like this is a whole other universe like interesting that after my experiences, especially if I'm gonna send the church just seemed cute to me. Like, it's not right or wrong or bad. It's just like, oh, that's like, cute.

Chase: Which is amazing. In and of itself. If I'm hearing correctly, you were like detaching judgment from it just, which has been a big part of my experience with psychedelics. Is that just a true understanding and on the path for truer further understanding that everything quite literally just is.

Doug: And it's okay. Yeah, exactly. It is. And it's okay. Yeah, yeah. And so I never, I've never had like negative resentment towards the church ever. Which I felt lucky to do that. 

Chase: which is also by the way, I think very, very important for you and for the listener, who went through experience is experiencing shame. Because I think that is the shame on the other side of shame that so many people are afraid of, is that I'm going to get on the other side of this, I might formulate my own way of being my belief system. And then I don't want to cast judgment, I don't want to have fear, I don't want I don't want to like be a negative person against this. I just, I just want to be, it's almost like, working through shame begets new shame.

Doug: Totally. And I think one thing, you know, going back to the church, and one thing that the reason that is for me is I am aware that I consciously broke their rules, right? They can say whatever rules they want. I knew what the rules were. And I made the decision to break myself against the rule. So I just there are consequences for that. And I own up to that. So I don't ever feel like I was mis treated, right? They have their structure in place, and they're sure stuff and that and they have every right to do that. And so that's why I don't think I have any resentment. But I know, I'm lucky. I know, other people have not had the same experience as me. And I'm grateful, you know, for my experience, and I have compassion and empathy for those that had different experiences.

Chase: So then, let's go to that night to, so you went through all that. And again, you're like,

Doug: so after I want, I'm like, never again. So the way I got out of Ayahuasca prison that first night is I remember someone gave me advice that came back and like here, like, way down like the echo chain, like way down the hallway. Someone told me that night, so if you ever get stuck, ask, what is this trying to teach you? Okay, so after what felt like eternity, I remembered that like that thought, like, was way back here. And remember, I was able to like, go grab it, take notes, listen, or you might do that later. And so I asked the experience, like what are you teaching me and it's like, you know, slow your roll. Don't be so impulsive, do your homework, like, let things settle. And so I got a couple of more really good takeaways that night, some just a lot of deep cleansing of self-worth.

Chase: So you kind of got your footing a bit. 

Doug: So I kind of get my footing back kind of get grounded. And then I remember leaving that night and being like, I'm never touching this ever again. In my entire life. I will never do Ayahuasca ever again. Like that was way too much. So the next morning, and so the ceremony where we had it, usually you spend the night whoever's hosting the ceremony. I lived like five minutes away from where I mean, that's how crazy the synchronicity was of having that ceremony. I live five minutes away. So I went home to my own bed. And the next morning, I woke up and I started taking my notes on the evening, because I signed up for three nights originally. And I'm like, I'm not doing night two and three, there's no way and I hear this voice like this booming voice behind me. Like back here. It just says come back. And I'm like, No way. Like no frickin way. Like, screw you. And so I remember like pacing in my apartment being like, what am I do like, like, angels on my shoulder, the devil on the other don't go. And so I remember

Chase: because everything up to this point has been you listening to that voice and going into the pool.

Doug: So I was like, should I have to go, I have to go back. And so we go back tonight to I'm like, I'm not taking a large again, give me a medium like not taking not going that deep. And that's basically you know, and still to this day. I've never come back for a second. So I've done nine ceremonies now. And I've never taken seconds. Still to this day. So I take a smaller dose that day. And like immediately when I take it, I am like I remember like the vision I was I was like in a helicopter. Like the ceremony was starting and then I got dropped out of the helicopter into like this ocean and I'm drowning like I'm suffocating drowning and I'm like, my head is spinning. I'm getting confused. I'm like, getting thrashed in this ocean within like 15 minutes of taking it. Wow. And I remember thinking like wow, the hell am I doing? Like there's, I remember thinking, excuse me, I remember thinking, There's no way I can do this for seven hours. Excuse me? Yes, I remember thinking like, if I have to do this for seven hours, I'm gonna lose my, I'm gonna have a psychotic break. Like, I cannot deal with this mental agony for seven, eight hours. And then all of a sudden Mother Ayahuasca is energy comes, picks me up out of the ocean, puts me in this game, and she has like this dark cloak on I'm just hallucinating all this? And she says, Do you respect me now? And I was like, beaten, battered on my hands and knees being like, Yes, I understand the depth and the power you have, like, please like begging for mercy hands like please. And then all of a sudden she was like, okay, we'll have fun tonight. And like, grabs me and takes me through the veil into that weird circus entity, alpha DMT machine like weird, weird dome. Like, it's really weird. I'm like, like, the hub of information. Basically, that whole night was showing me what my life would look like if I live up to my true potential, which is so beautiful. And it was very much like, there's no problem of life, you know, the biggest lesson from that night was, life is not a problem to solve. You're trying to solve this problem, then you think everything will be okay, life is not, it's an experience to be had. And that really changed my perspective my entire life, and how I'm capable of creating really beautiful work and not to try and figure it out and just go with the flow, trust life, and how the present moment and you know, being in the now is so beautiful. And really learning to meet people where they're at, look at them in their eyes and learn to love one another and be open to all types of people. And it was like this, really, I felt like my whole brain got cleaned. Like, they literally cleaned my outfit, like my whole brain got reset. Wow. And I had this moment where I felt like I was like getting back into my body for the first time ever, as if I was like, being born as a 30 year old man and conscious and aware of it. Wow, consciously aware, and I remember looking at my hand and like making a fist and being like, holy shit, I just think. And it did, like, how does it do that? Like, explain how it does that you can't like it, you can just do that, you know. And I remember feeling my mind was completely clear. So I had no secondary thought, and no preferences. And the amount of bliss and euphoria I just felt by being alive was so profound. And I remember thinking like, holy shit, this is what it feels like to be alive. Like, holy shit, we're alive. And hence the title of my book comes from that night on Ayahuasca. And I left that night. So changed forever. Like, physically, literally, I was reborn. And I remember driving home, because I went to my mom's house that night, I woke up at 230 in the morning. I'm like, Mom, like spirits always like Mom, believe this, you know. So wake up. The next morning, I remember driving home and had a couple of three incidences that happened that were so profound. I was driving home and I remember seeing someone at a stoplight on the corner who's going across the crosswalk, and he had a clear soda glass with orange soda in it. And I noticed that he had orange soda. And I'm like, every time I drive, I'm like, completely zoned out. And I have a secondary conversation. But I'm like, I was fully present. And it was so eye opening. And I remember getting to my parking garage in my apartment and walk getting out of the car. And I could smell it. Like my parking garage has a smell. I've lived here for years and I never noticed it because I'm always like, on to the next one. I've got to figure solve the problem. Why isn't this girl text me back? I need to make more money somewhere else, you know, just so lost in my head. And then I get to my permanent turn on. It's funny because like, I like Mumford and Sons. But I don't love Mumford and Sons. And it was kind of like on playlist and I remember hearing a Mumford song Mumford and Sons song come on. And I remember I started sobbing because I was I could fully hear the music. I was like there was nothing else going on in the entire world in my mind. Other than that song. And I fully felt the depth of that song. And I'm like, Whoa, like, this is what music sounds like. Holy shit. This is beautiful. And I just started sobbing.

Chase: It sounds like you're having a every moment you had a deep rooted appreciation for that moment for life for that experience

Doug: fully present the most present I had ever been in my entire life. Everything that I was involved in, gotten my 100% attention and it was so beautiful the depth and richness of the experience. 

Chase: so then what was night three?

Doug: Night three so I went back night three a little bit more cautious like okay, I had a hard night at a good night I'm like what's kind of in store for tonight? So night three, I took a small dose again and kind of broke through that like got to like that weird dome place pretty quickly but I remember kind of being stuck there like no one was coming and like no guide or no entity was coming to teach me anything. I remember kind of just watching like this weird circus. Beslan thing is like a circus thing going me is really weird. I started freaking me out a little bit because I'm like, This is so weird. And then finally I like dropped into this classroom. And it was like a spirit guide who just pulled out a chalkboard and just wrote, you know, a couple of things like very specific things to do in my life.

Chase: Like, Hey, Doug, here are your life lessons.

Doug: Yeah, here's the homework. Yes. Have this conversation about this with this friend and to get out of debt. Three. Don't ever bet on sports ever again. Because big time in sports betting it's like stop sports betting don't do it anymore. I till this day, I still haven't. 

Chase: you didn’t just get ideas or things that maybe oh, I can look into that; you got specific things to do and not do. Did you do them or not do them?

Doug: all of them. I've done all of them. Which is really cool. Because I always jump right. And so the last one I got, there's a couple there's one about a girl I was dating and some other stuff that I didn't share in the book. But the last one was I was building the daily shifts app at this point. And in my head, it was always just an app, like, I'm going to build an app, I'm an app guy. And the last one he write is like, Hey, by the way, daily shifts, is going to be a whole mentorship community that just could be a small piece of it, and never thought of it that way. And always has been an app, 

Chase: Hey, Doug, think bigger,

Doug: literally was like, go bigger, it's gonna be a whole movement. And I was like, cool, like, wow, I never even thought of that. And so that was night three. And you know, still to this day, those first three nights of ceremony, you know, I had some I've had some other really profound nights along my life. But those three, I mean, that dramatically changed my entire human experience.

Chase: And speaking of the human experience, at the end of your book, and I was dog earing so many things in here. I had a question in mind for you at the end of all this, because besides being phenomenal story, and very timely for me, because it's where I am in a lot of a lot of journey and self-work. I kind of got to the question of cool story, Doug. But like, it's not like tangible here, here are five ways to increase your productivity. Here's, you know, the self-help. Here's the action, that you made this point in your conclusion, though, that I hope it makes you feel less alone in our shared humanity. Is that the point of this book is that the point in sharing your journey is at the point in all this? And is that the point that you think we all should be kind of after?

Doug: I think that's a really important point, right. And I think that you know, learning to enhance your human experience with those around you, so you don't feel so alone, coupled with learning to love the life you're living, not the one you wish you were living. And that was my problem. As I was fighting for a life that I thought I was supposed to be living, and I wasn't enjoying the one I actually was living. And so the intention of my book is to help people to inspire them to do their personal work to maybe look at some of their traumatic experiences when they were raised and realizing what their story is of why something's wrong with them. For me, it was I was a fat kid, and that I don't belong in my church and that I've screwed up and then rushed around trying to prove myself in the world. And once I learned to love myself, I say you know, self-love is a superpower. Then you can learn to love and enjoy your current life experience and share a love with humanity and those around you.

Chase: Do you think as you are kind of describing that this this kind of came to mind for me is it that until we stop in appreciate and choose to love the life we're living instead of the one that we're chasing after only then are we ever actually living? Because up until that point, we're just chasing the next thing chasing the next thing? We're not actually fully present, there is no presence, right? How could there be?

Doug: because we think life is just around the corner, your big brakes, just if only you know, I call it happy when syndrome? No, of course, right? I'll be happy when I get the partner or get back in shape or get the car and get the raise or you know, whatever it may be. And we think that's when our life will happen. And you get to a point where like, wow, I've actually wasted a ton of my life thinking it was around the corner, but your ships never coming in. 

Chase: You are the ship. 

Doug: Yeah, so I just hope that my book inspires people to live a deeper, richer, more meaningful life.

Chase: Well, that is exactly what I got out of it. And I mean, the journey I mean, so much raw truth. And so for that, I acknowledge you, and thank you because this stuff is not easy. It's very few of us that will experience this level of awareness and piercing through the veil, however you get there sure. And in and of itself that is profound. And that is amazing. And that is work. But then to take it a step further and to share it with the world, and to write a book about it and to share it with people, maybe that are were in your life still in your life that my words not yours might have repercussions. More fear of shame. I cannot think of any more bravery, any more higher level of bravery and just knowing that you're on the right path. And in doing the work for yourself, but then sharing with others because in doing so, like you are a model for so many other people, you are giving people permission through your story through your work here to just step into that journey themselves.

Doug: Thank you, brother. That means a lot to me.

Chase: You're very welcome. Thank you so much for being here. My final question for you is and sharing my background with you over also losing my father that was actually the catalyst for what I'm doing now Ever Forward was this phrase that he lived breeds, acted, and quite literally, with his dying breath, his last 18 months on Earth modeled for me of what that looks like. And it is not pretty. It can be pretty sometimes it's a lot of fun, but it is work nonetheless and it is choosing the hard right over the easy wrong and asking like your question in your journey of Ayahuasca what is the gift in this? There is a there is an advantage in this adversity. And until we ask that question, we will never see it, I think. And in order to do that, you know, that's what I'm talking about here when we live a life ever forward. So what does that mean to you? When I say those two words to live a life ever forward? How does that fall into here today? 

Doug: I think living a life ever forward is my phrase of I feel like I the way I say it is I'm committed to the higher path. Right? And it's living a life of constantly challenging and questioning your beliefs to become the best version of you, for you. Right? Not for anyone else, not for mom, not for Dad, not for your community. That being true and living a life of integrity of who you truly, truly are. And just like you said, a lot of times that's choosing the hard right versus the easy wrong.

Chase: It's very interesting that you define it that way. Thank you for your interpretation. Because that is actually this this current season of my life is that's exactly it. So much of what I was doing and creating was working through that trauma and that grief in my own process of my time in the military of the death of my father, I've just so many life trials, it was for somebody else it was for him. And it was a lot of there was a lot of good in that. But I in this current season in my life, I had an experience on psychedelics that led me to that profound, just clear as you and I are here today, that it is time for me to do it for myself. He will always be there. The other people always be there. It doesn't change my relationship or love for them. But doing it for him got me to where I am here now today. And now it's time for me to do it for me.

Doug: I love that super empowering, super beautiful. 

Chase: well Doug we're gonna have your information and your book down in the show notes for everybody. But if they want to connect with you right now, like where can they go to learn more? 

Doug: so the book is on Amazon right now. And personally, you can connect with me on Instagram. That's my main use. I mostly use Instagram and I always usually respond to DMs. So at Doug underscore Cartwright, I would love your feedback and I would love to hear where you're on where you are on your journey.

Chase: He does because if you didn't we wouldn't be here. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you friend. Much love. Alright guys, that's a wrap for today. Get Doug's information, get his book. I'll have it linked for you down in the show notes like I said, and it's a journey. It's quite the journey. Thank you. For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode show notes or head to everforwardradio.com