EFR 512: The Great Unlearn - How to Give Yourself Grace When Creating New Belief Systems with Cal Callahan

Chase: Isn't that such a cool concept, as an adult I don't think I fully appreciated. But I'm getting there in terms of just getting back into kind of like that, that sacred space play space totally just creative, abundant space that I think we kind of abandon, or we think that we need to grow out of, but I'm with you, man. 

Cal: Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, you're, you're, you're kind of in the process of Dude, I'm 49. It took so it took me to I was literally 49 years old, it was this fall, that I woke up to that. So you're ahead of me, as far as you know, linear time goes. But there is something really potent in that in and I bring up the story about the room in my excitement, it was literally like the seven year old was so excited to decorate his room. And that isn't celebrated. It's not honored. Unfortunately, in this community, you're in Austin, it is, you know, are you familiar with Garen Jones, you know who Garen is he was in LA for a number of years, he moved here. And he's had a big influence on my life and moved here in November. In lives with that, that kid like spirit and very successful, has some amazing businesses, but never loses touch with that child in what he shared with me. And I've heard this before, but it really landed for me when he shared it with me, look, that child is going to drive all your decisions now is it the wounded child, the hurt child? Or is it going to be the child that is healed and, you know, understands, can orient towards joy? And so as I started to heal some of my past traumas in step into that, and really, everything fell through with that, like, I've always had this abundant mindset, but with that with the wounded, there was a sense that I didn't deserve it. I would give away my time, I would give away my money, I would invest in things that I would never invest in today, because I didn't want to miss out on something, or is a friend who is doing and I have this money. And there's this underlying belief that I don't really deserve it. So I'll just give him some even though I think the project is going to fail, you know, so I didn't have the boundaries. But as I started to go into that, understand that, oh, I just don't feel like I deserve this. But actually, I do like, why, like, basically, why not. And you start to uncover where in your past, you were told that you didn't deserve it, or you received that information, I should say, let me be very clear. My interpretation of it was that I didn't deserve it. Now, it could have been my dad being really hard on me. But his intention was to make me the best son he could. His way was received by me as me not being enough, me not being lovable, me being stupid, me being a fuckup, whatever. That's how I interpreted it. And because of that, you kind of have these wounds now. The gratitude comes in the fact that my reaction to that was to become a high achiever. So I was able to create resiliency, and get clarity on what I needed to do what I believe that needed to do to earn love I needed to perform, I needed to achieve, 

Chase: not be a fuckup. 

Cal: Exactly. I'll show them that I'm smart. And so there's benefits in that I, I try not to be that way with my kids. I tried to be very intentional. I mean, you met my son, Jake, he's 18. I can't say I was like that all the time with him. And I have a son who's 15. And my daughter is almost 14. But dude, as I did my work, and again, it's been quite recently, within the last six, eight months, that I've been able to show up for them way differently of actually paying attention to what they need, not what I think they need. And then I'll even ask them, and then I give them the opportunity to express their needs. And if they don't, then arguably, the needs are going to be unmet. But if they can actually express it to me, I can actually help them there. It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm this kind of helicopter dad, where I am trying to make sure everything's all right. It's not that at all, like I give them big boundaries, I want them to have their own experience, because I know that that in my 49 years is how I learned everything, not by someone telling me what to do. So I've really tried to honor that in them and our relationship, you know, really has grown and deepened. And there's a trust. You know, the stuff that my 15 year old is coming to me with he's super curious about psychedelics. There aren't a lot of parents, I don't think that are looking forward to having a conversation like that with their 15 year old and you know, it wasn't like I jumped at the opportunity immediately. My first reaction was like, sure drugs. Yeah, sure. But I've had experience with them. I've had profound experiences, but I've also fucked off with them. I've had the whole, you know, the whole spectrum. But when I really anchored into it, I understood that there was a fear there that was given to me by society that you your kids should not be even thinking about this stuff. You can think about the church with sex and all that. But like, society at large says your kid should not even be thinking about drugs, they shouldn't be researching it, they shouldn't be doing anything. They're too young. Okay, they have access to any information they want, way more than we did way more of the same age. So do I actually want to create a container where I can give him the best education around that? Again, I'm not necessarily ready for him to have his experience with it. But I want to give him the tools that helped me understand this space better. And eventually, he's going to do them. I know he is whether it's through my approval or not. And so if I can create safety in that, in understanding and respect and intention, I don't have fear around that. I have more fear about them drinking, because that's a different drug for me. It's legal, but it doesn't mean it's better. And so I and again, I'm not condoning the use of psychedelics by 15 year olds what I'm saying is, I want to have the conversation with them. I want to be the first guy he comes to. Because if we develop the trust in a space that's really tricky for people. What happens when the shit really hits the fan for him? I want to be the first phone call and right now I think I would be because he knows I can handle it. But I think we're taught to parent in this society in a way that doesn't create that it's like, you're the master they're the pupil you tell them what to do you just fucking lecture didn't work for you did it didn't work for me. And it kept me in fear. That wasn't good. But I was gonna do my shit, no matter what because I was curious. Kids are curious. They're gonna find a way. So if I can, you know, I understand better why parents host parties where their kids can drink.

Chase: I'd rather you do it under my roof, right

Cal: I get that there's a safety element there. And it doesn't mean the kids aren't gonna drink too much they are their kids are fucking curious. They've got to find those boundaries, those edges, they're gonna be fine. Don't let them drive, keep them home. Again, it's not something that we do here. But I'm, I'm open minded enough to understand that there's, there's real practicality in that. And again, you're developing a relationship of trust with your kid, you're saying, I know you're a kid. But you're growing into a young man or a young woman. And so like, let's start to have these conversations and open up that, that connection there. It's been it's been amazing man.

Chase: I love hearing that. It really does. It gives me hope as not quite yet, but a soon to be, you know, new Dad, you know, my wife and I are having those conversations. And it's absolutely going to happen. It's just a matter of when. And a big part of my kind of background is like the health aspect. And I think where we are now as a society is that we have like, to your point of so much more information, accessible information, I think we've come a long way as a society in terms of bringing awareness to how we can improve our health, how we can add longevity, there's a lot of arguments to be made that you know, this generation is not going to outlive the previous kind of thing and not trying to try and go down that rabbit hole. But in so much of like what you do and the whole unlearn aspect, I think we're also in a new paradigm shift of, of that next level sense of awareness of the T word of trauma. And parents now finally kind of knocking on that door, reliving and going down that rabbit hole themselves to hopefully then kind of maybe not saved, not the right word, but just open up that channel communication with their children. So that I think this next generation, your children, are not going to have so much more information about their health and their wellness and job opportunities and how to add longevity to their life. But just like to step out of that container a bit more, would you agree and like kind of having like this next generation of traumatic awareness? 

Cal: Yes, I think that's a great point. And I think the important thing that you just mentioned is, when we do our inner work, we heal the trauma, whether it's the capital T or the lowercase t, when we do that we actually heal it for our lineage. You know, that's what I believe. And so as I go through that I actually get to show up very differently for my kids because I go back, see what the trauma was. I see how it changed me. And I understand that that's available to them too. So What can I share about my experience to give them a little bit more color on what it means to look at pornography at a very young age? They all do. Okay, you're going to do it. I can't keep you from doing it. Whether I put a lock on your phone or computer, you've got friends like, I'm not stupid. But give them the idea of like, this is what can happen when you do that, and there's no shame there's no none of that around it, but it's just an awareness for them that this isn't you know, there's no such thing as a free lunch. You're going to look at pornography as a young kid. I get it I did to someone gave it to me very young and for me it just sexualized everything. Okay, now as I'm going back to heal, that I understand, I can speak to them in a way through my own experience. When you're speaking that way, you know, when you're talking to someone who's had an experience with something they've healed some trauma, there's, there's a message that comes through at a frequency and energy that you just get it versus someone who's parenting something they read from a book or heard in a podcast like this interesting, but that doesn't do anything for me. But when you're speaking about your experience, when you come in as the wounded healer, or whatever the archetype is, there's real, there's real medicine in that. And again, I want them to have their own experience. I'm not a guy that says no, no, no, no, no, no, maybe in the past, I was in a, you know, bring up health, I think is so interesting. My wife and I are super dialed into that space as well. But my kids, you know, for a long time, we pretty much forced it on them.

Chase: Like sports and activities or?

Cal: just like to healthy eating. And it's fucking best intentions in the world, but that they don't see it that way. So they need to go through their own experience with food and you keep throwing the nuggets out there. You keep living your life in, they see your healthy they see at 49 you have a lot of vitality that you look younger than you, they see these things. They're paying attention, it doesn't mean they're going to implement it right now. It may take my son till he's 45 until it lands. Okay, this is journey, the more I try to force him into living my life, the more I push him away from me in the real medicine that I had to share with him, is I just got to live my life and when he comes to me, I'll get he comes when my 15 year old comes to me about psychedelics, I tell him about all my experiences, because I talk about it on the podcast. He can listen to my podcast, like I'm an open wallet. So when I can, you know, go deeper into those experiences and share some, some really, you know, maybe stuff I haven't shared on the podcast, that pulls him in closer to me. Now there's this exchange going on. And then again, it's like building trust in that relationship. But again, yeah, it worked for a while getting the kids to eat healthy, but eventually, it just, it just doesn't work because they're not ready. But it doesn't mean you can't create a container in your home. That is health giving. But don't beat yourself up if your kids eating, drinking Dr. Pepper and eating a candy bar with his friends. It's like they're fucking kids. They're gonna be fine 

Chase: like running out the door. Not the high fructose corn syrup. I raised you better.

Cal: Yes. Because you take it as a judgement like I am a bad parent. That's what society wants you to think control your kid. If you can't control it, there's no such thing as a bad kid is a bad parent. I used to say that shit all the time. I don't believe that. I believe that everyone's having their own experience, like how can we show up for these kids? Let them have their own experience, really widen the boundaries. But keep an eye on those edges. And know that sometimes they're going to go to a place where like, oops, I gave him a little too much room there. It's okay. I'm not doing it. Because I'm trying to be a cool dad. I'm doing it because I want this kid to have his own experience. And I want to show him that I trust him and I trust his judgment. And if he's not sure, he can come to me and ask me. 

Chase: In order to get trust you have to give it right in order to get respect you have to give it when did all this happened for you before you became and still are becoming this model for this kind of rewiring and awareness and unlearning for the next generation. Your next generation. When did it first happen for you? Was there a big catalyst and major events?

Cal: there was a catalyst like a motherfucker. October 1 2017 I was in Las Vegas at the route 91 Music Festival when Jason Aldean was playing when the guy was shooting. So I was there while he was shooting down I believe was the MGM. There were tour buses between him. And the stage I was behind. As it turned out when it happened. I was near the tour bus. So I hid behind the tour buses with my friend and a bunch of other people. I took cover for I don't even know how long it was 5-10 minutes, you know, the shooting stuff. And we were still in the place for a bit. But in that moment, so I was 45 at the time. You looked at my Instagram, you know, it was it would be a life that anybody would have wanted. You know, and in fact, earlier in the summer, I had flew private to the Mayweather McGregor fight. And then I flew private up to New York where I played golf with Jordan Spaeth, Rickie Fowler and Justin Thomas, through a mutual friend, you know, one of my best friends was friends with them, so I get to hang with them. And then they leave to go play in a tournament, and Michael Jordan comes up with his group of six or seven guys, so I'm with them for three days playing golf, gambling, drinking tequila, whatever, like holy shit, look at my life. But I was chasing something. And I was, I wasn't doing any of the inner work. I didn't know who I was. And I was trying to find myself in all these experiences, not really the experiences that I'm talking about. I mean, they're all important, right? That experience when I got on the other side of it, you know, when I would come home from these, I would come home feeling like fucking pretty cool, pretty proud of myself. And naturally, my wife could sense that energy she's like, without saying is like, I don't fucking care about those guys. Like, who are you? 

Chase: that hit that hit hard on.

 Cal: I haven’t talked about that in a while.

Chase: Well, thank you for sharing. 

Cal: So she would bring me back to Earth. And, and I would bring myself lower, because I would feel like a fraud. And I was in some ways I wasn't. I wasn't expressing. I didn't know who I was. So I was trying to I was living through all these different masks, I was hanging out with quote unquote, cool people. And I had that stuff on my Instagram and because I don't take it down. It's a reminder of what can happen when you lose, or you don't know who you are. And, you know, it's definitely a part of me that's like, kind of a little embarrassed about it, but it's like, it's okay. It's part of my evolution is part of my growth. These are the experiences that have brought me to this conversation today. So with that, in the backdrop, I'm sitting there as the shots are firing, and there's just a sense over me like I did everything I was supposed to do. I fucking acquired accumulated all things and many more than I ever thought I could do in a lifetime and I'm fucking I'm unfulfilled. Like what the fuck happened? Like, I got played by the rules. And I was playing the wrong game. I didn't know that was the game we're taught, unfortunately. 

Chase: playing by the rules for playing the wrong game that that that's, that's hitting me 

Cal: because it's never gonna be enough. The Michael Jordan's, whatever, there's always gonna be another one after that you're running on external validation, you don't love yourself, you're looking for love from other people and adulation and you want your buddies is how cool it is. And I can even sense from like three of my best friends are just like, that's shit cool. But like, we only care about that. I was so stuck in my shit that I couldn't quite hear that. And I didn't think they were jealous or anything, but I was like, they don't kind of get it, you know, this is pretty awesome. But when I left Las Vegas, I left on Monday. So there was a Sunday left on Monday on Tuesday, I had an NAD plus IV therapy, scheduled it on it, I had done it before the summer before we left for our summer in Idaho. And I was gonna start up again, because I had this awareness, you know, as I left the summer that I wasn't taking care of myself and like had to start working out again, take care of my shit. And on that Tuesday, I met Kyle Kingsbury. And I don't know if there's been anybody in my life that has created more just opportunity for me to explore myself through his own being able to hold space for me. And in the process I was in, and all the people I've met because of him. My whole like, basically everybody who's here on Wednesday, there's some tentacle that runs back to him in some way. So I'm forever grateful for him for him bringing me into this vortex of real, real change. But I went on this journey, and Kyle helped give me the tools of exploring like why am I here? And that's, you know, why am I here? Who am I? Who am I without and there's no answer, except there's more inquiry. And there's more going into different experiences to figure that out. And it could be plant medicines, I've done a few of those. It could be just doing breath work, it could be getting still walking outside with your shirt off. It's reading books, it's being in space with other people who were in that same experience. So for about 18 months, I didn't really know what I was doing. But I knew I was doing I was I had a North Star. I didn't know what it was, but I was it was that you know is about 18 months later, I had this awareness. Oh, I'm just trying to figure out why I'm here and who I am. So it gave context of what had happened up until then. And it gave me some language to share with my wife who was like what the fuck is going on with you, like you're changing and some of it's cool, but some of the scary like, there's such an intensity around the unlearning and the questioning 

Chase: an absolute intensity, especially with a partner to where if you're not on the same page, or I'm sure I'm not about words, your mouth, but I'm sure you were experiencing and going down so many different paths that you probably weren't yet vocalizing with her because I've been there because you're like, how do you vocalize some of this stuff.

Cal: you know, you're just in your in your process. And she was we're doing her own work. So it wasn't like she was not familiar with it. But, you know, you layer in trying to figure out who you are with this high achiever mentality. You go in with a lot of intensity. And unfortunately, or fortunately, you go in with a lot of self-focus, and so you shut a lot of things out. And so our relationship was suffering, because we were not connected. But in my mind, I'm like, I'm just trying to get to be the best version of me for you and the kids and everybody else. And so I just need to do this work, but I just didn't understand that. There's nuance around that you can still do the work and still be very much part of the fabric of the family. 

Chase: I'm so glad you said that I person listening watching, like go back and listen to that again. I think it's a really profound concept that we often struggle with. And we often justify the most because it's like no, I'm doing this for you. I'm doing this for us. But there are so many other nuances that need to be considered in that process. Through just communication. 

Cal: like trying to get to for me, I was like trying to get to the finish line. Okay, I want to get to my goal, which is to find out who I am, but it's always unfolding if I'm especially if I'm paying attention, it will always unfold and it will always change. It'll always be something different, but if I can be present to it and just appreciate that journey of discovering new things about myself, there's no, there's no definitive. Like I did it. Like I'm just in it. And I appreciate it. Sometimes I get kicked out of it. And that's okay, too. It's part of the process. 

Chase: Well, thank you so much for kind of sharing that. I mean, I think, judging by your reaction, and just knowing that event, I mean, that was definitely a big t event. And that's been kind of my unlearning over the last couple of years. Everybody says that we moved to LA, things are gonna happen, things are going to happen to you. And I didn't really believe it, but just call it the environment called the city, but just honestly community. I mean, I've, you know, Kyle has been on the show, back until I was an 18, meeting him and meeting so many other people and just tapping into networks that are networks and people like you said that the tentacles of like, who they are, has just left the most profound impact in my life and showed me all of these big T's and little T's that have just become, I keep going back to your word, the unlearning and just an unraveling, but an unraveling, to the most profound truth that I've ever experienced. And I think that's something that a lot of people don't give as much credit to. And I absolutely will speak for myself and say that I didn't think so even just like, a year ago, two years ago, I had it figured out, I was like, no, I got health, I'm good. Like, I got my partner like life is good. But like that is just clearly the tip of the iceberg. So how would you kind of advise somebody or translate to somebody who thinks that we're good, we have it figured out? Maybe we haven't had this big come to Jesus moment yet? Or maybe you never will? But just how can even kind of translate that there is stuff on the other side that you might want to be you know, checking out? 

Cal: Yeah, great question in, you know, I did have the benefit of that that catalyst, the catalytic moment that shook my world up, it called into question my entire belief system, a lot of people don't have that as a trigger to, to really go into that healing. You know, one of the things that has been so helpful is what you just talked about, is being around people who can hold space for that, and they're in it, and they can handle it, because there is definitely a part of it, that's very solitary, like you're going through your own shit. So you have to go through your own shit. But to have people around you, that understand it, and can in again, I just can't think of a better term than hold space for your process and not rushing you through it to try to make you feel better. And can just listen and not try to fix anything, because there's nothing to be fixed. It's just your own healing and will happen in your own time. I mean, one of the best ways is to get quiet into really, when things trigger you because they trigger all of us like to try to sit with like, what is it, just keep coming back to like curiosity around the things that are triggering you because there's real, there's a real message there for something that's, that's either unprocessed, or maybe there is some trauma there. And as you bring it to the surface, I know it sounds like it's painful, but like, there's, there's so much on the other side of it, there's a gift on the other side. And it's not just for you, it's for others too. I think people you know, understandably so they don't want to do the work, because it just seems like a lot is has a heavy lift. You know, like I've got a pretty good life. I like my life. And I get that. I liked my life too. But I was living someone else's life. It was it was the rules of society. And I was playing by I was playing by them. But it's, it's not who I was, you know, I wasn't I wasn't, I wasn't acting in service to, you know, kind of to the things that I'm doing today where I'm having these conversations to just open the aperture a little bit for people like, I'm not saying you got to go change everything right now. But just get curious around your own life. And if you see someone who just seems to be living in pure joy, not that they don't have issues and they don't have hard times, but authentic joy get curious around what they're doing. There's you again, you've got to go through your own experience, but there's a lot of there's a lot of learning to be done by others that are living the life that you think you want to lead. You know, and I think I think that's an important part and also as you go through that process, and you thought you had it figured out, and then you realize you didn't, like, take it easy on yourself, like, don't be like, I was such a fucking idiot, I thought I had it all figured out, and I'm full of shit, you're doing the best you could like, you thought like, you thought what you thought. And that's just the fact. So own that accept that and just know that you're seeing things a little bit differently, right now you have you have a little more consciousness around what's going on. And there may be a rush to change everything. And that's okay, too. It doesn't quite work that way for most people. But try it, I tried to and along the way, I tried to be the best at meditating. And the best that going in the cold plunge and all these things. And once I got present with those things, once I started doing those conscious practices, consciously versus unconsciously, I had actually done enough quote unquote, reps in them so I can actually go into them quite easily. So there's, there's, there's a reason for all of it. And you can certainly lose your mind trying to pull together all threads, but just know and have the understanding that it's all happening for a reason. And you can't, you don't need to know why. But it's got you to where you are right now. And the ways you may have shown up or not showing up in your life in the past that are hard for you to confront if you can just own that, because for a long time, I tried to push those things away, I tried to outrun them, I tried to keep those shadows in the darkness. And it doesn't work, they don't stay there, they come back and with more intensity until you resolve them and you say you know what, I'm all those things. And you know what, I'm still lovable because of that. That's the best I had. It's what I was taught. It's what you know, you know, in all times, we are doing the best we can and I know it's doesn't feel good. We're not acting, you know, maybe like a Mother Teresa. But it's okay. You know, give yourself permission to be okay with it. 

Chase: I think grace for me is the word that comes to mind when you're talking about how, how powerful would it be for all of us if we all received a little bit more grace in our life, but especially if we were the one giving it to us? You know, it came to us from us? how impactful would that be? I know I would have appreciated it years ago, and I'll probably still can now. 

Cal: I love, love that you bring that up because I had a conversation with a close friend of mine recently. And that very thing came up and we were talking about my relationship with Payton and there was like some triggering that had happened. And he had an awareness that I wasn't giving myself grace. He's like, look Cal how you've come so far. Instead of it taking three months for you to realize you had done something that maybe triggered Payton now it takes you 30 minutes or five minutes, like your mile time. I think about it in the context of sort of a 12 minute mile, you're like down to five and a half or whatever is like you're shaving time off your mile. But the way you look at it is I'm still fucking up, I still can't get this right. I'm still like, no, you're gonna do that you're still going to have these things that trigger your wife, she's going to trigger you. It's okay. But I'm taking, I'm going to pull in another conversation I had with a different friend. If the gun is not loaded, there's nothing to trigger. So to unload that gun for me, it's to give myself grace. And so when my wife is upset with something that I did, where I didn't see her in a way that she wanted to be seen. Instead of thinking, I'm a fucking asshole, I'm never gonna get this, right. just own it, and then try to do better and say, you know what you're doing the best you can like, what else would you be doing? And then when I do that, when I give myself grace, then I give her grace to because now I know what it feels like, but I can't give her grace if I can't give it to myself. I don't know what it is. And I need to give her grace in the moments where I feel like she may be triggering me or she may not be at her best. And it's like this thing where you're absolutely right. Like we need to give it to ourselves first we need to be easy on ourselves. So we got to think about it, you know, and again, that the context of the mile time really made sense to me. So it's I'm glad you brought up the grace piece it was important.

Chase: That was great. That was great. It sounds like in your life, you've had a good amount of people, or at least, you know, one or two that have really left a lasting impression on you. And maybe were that, that kind of guide in the middle of the night that had a light for you to put you on a new path, or even just to illuminate the one that you were already on but were doubtful of. And I've had so many people like that in my life. And I'm curious, do you ever feel like sometimes I do there's like a reciprocity that needs to happen? I just feel so deeply impacted by people. Sometimes I'm like, how can I ever, it's like, you have shown me the meaning of my life, or put me on the path to discovering my truest, most authentic self. And as cliche as that might sound like it is the most truest, the most truest, most true thing I've ever experienced, like the most truest est just like, how do we give back to those people? How do we kind of have a reciprocity? Or is that just another thing in our head that we feel like we need to work towards? 

Cal: I would say it's another thing in our head. And I would, I would say, what, what they showed you, I'm allowed to talk about me what these men and women have shown me is through their example. Now they've held counsel for me too. But they're living that life. So the best thing I can do, to show my appreciation is to move forward in that, that I am showing up as me in the full embodiment of who I am. And by doing that, I'm giving others permission just like that person did for you and me to do the same. And there's nothing better than that. Because you start to see, again, I have these Wednesday workouts. We haven't talked about it here yet. But you know, for the past eight months, people have been coming over to my place. And today was the kind of season ending party it was amazing. And we had 45 people here, it's incredible. There's something that's happening within that group. And I can see that I have a part in it and everybody else who shows up as a part in it. And we leave this on Wednesday. And we radiate that out into our individual worlds in is fucking powerful. And so it's very much like, almost like get out of the mind piece in into, like, how can I just embody all of this wisdom and learning and healing and brotherhood? If I can just walk through the world like that people are going to pick up that energetic signature, they just are. If they're ready to. And if they're not, they might think you're a fucking weirdo or whatever. But eventually, maybe they're just like, okay, well, maybe this guy is onto something. Because I've definitely had that experience with people. Like, that guy's fucking weird. And then it's, you know, months later, it's like, I can't spend enough time with that guy. 

Chase: And it's so true to your point of like, when they're ready, because I have come back to people to where that sounds weird. She's weird. He's crazy. what you're talking about, I will never be into. And now all I do is go to those people for those things. To your point is you have to kind of just, even if you haven't had this kind of major come to Jesus moment, or a big t word. If we just posed the question, I think of what if, like, what if I just kind of challenged my comfy life? What if I just, what if I just thought and accepted that what they're saying is of interest to me? Or is true? Just any kind of question like that, and just go down just one step in that rabbit hole. And just see, you know, I think it's one of the greatest litmus tests ever. It's just, I always go back to kind of my health and fitness routes, because that's what I would do so much with, with clients and my coaching practice. And where I think a lot of people are is like, oh, I want to improve my life. I want to change my life. What do we typically do? I'm going to go on a diet. Yeah, I'm going to start working. Now I'm going to run and so we start with the external self first, and it does amazing things. But you're gonna reach a point to where, like, Congratulations, you've achieved fitness, you've achieved health. Yeah. And you can maintain that and that's great. But so now like, what about the internal stuff? And that was kind of like my big. Another one of my big ts, for sure. I was sharing with you earlier about, you know, the loss of my father. And that was probably one of the most traumatic experiences of my life because he was my idol, my best friend. And it was just happened so fast. I was 19 years old. I just left home. I just started my new career in the army, and it was just like, I was becoming a man but then I lost my father, I lost like my model. And then I ran for like, 12 years after that, and I chased physical health and I chased the external self and I chased excesses, I was chasing, I was playing by the rules was damn sure playing somebody else's game and all that internal shit just spewed out in every ugly way you could imagine panic attacks, anxiety, losing relationships, my job struggling, just questioning everything. But I was like, everything's good on the outside, you know, and I'd never ever, ever questioned anything internally, until I just took out a piece of paper, and just started brain dumping in the shit that came out of me. I was just like, where the hell did this come from? And it's all there. People have it in there. So maybe don't wait for a big t get ahead of the big T, you know? 

Cal: And I think I love this questioning. I think that's the important part. You know, have the courage to question at all like, what would it mean if all your beliefs were bullshit? If they were someone else's? And it's terrifying because it's like, well, there's we have such an attachment to our belief system. That if I'm not my belief system, that belief system is a house of cards. Who am I? What I say because I bet in the experience of that, and I've been in that dark night of the soul, like, I'm fucking not like Who am I, because I don't know if any of this shit is actually true. On the other side of that, is you actually get to make decisions and choices about what you believe. And I don't even like to use the word belief, because there's something there like, the things you get to orient towards your experience in the things you know, yeah, just know them not 

Chase: knowing was coming to you to establish your own knowing 

Cal: if we can just pull away from belief systems and get into our knowing it into the body of the gut. And the heart is always right for you just but it's, it's, it's conditioned out of us. We're so heady, our whole society is so heady, that the real trick is to get down into that heart, you know. And as I've done that, it's what made me a great trader, I could get into the gut. I was decent at math, but it wasn't about math. I just could feel it like they weren't all winners. But I would get in a flow and I would see everything from just a knowing sure you're not because I was like super smart with numbers.

Chase: I don't do math. Good. So they leg up on me on there, for sure. 

Cal: But I wasn't, I wasn't tapping into it anywhere else in my life. Gotcha. It's what I've reconnected to. In the past year, year and a half, two years, I don't even know when it really started. Someone asked me a question my instinct may be to answer with my, my mind. But I tune into myself it could be we're at a restaurant, and I'm looking for a recommendation. And the guy recommends, you know, crab cakes, and I like nope, we're before I'd be like, sure he's recommending it like, okay, cool. But like, nope. Like something as subtle as that, or do I want to invest in something? Like, do I really want to and it's like, if I if I start getting in my head about it, I can figure out reasons why or why not. But if I just feel into it, then I just have a sense of peace around it and I'm okay no matter what happens, but that's, that's really the journey for a lot of us is to get back into the body and stay in the body and to use the, the mind when you need to. But don't let it run your life. It has it ran my life for a long time. That's where what you're talking about with, you know, this external validation, you know, we people can do fitness really well, they can eat a great diet. But if they don't change that relationship to self, right, you're running out you're gonna run a fuel with a relationship 

Chase: the relationship with your workout the relationship with your food. Its so much more relationships tie in heavily to like the why and the driving force behind it all. 

Cal: Yeah, and it's okay, if you're doing fitness and nutrition and whatever for those reasons, it doesn't mean you can't shift and start to look at it differently. Why am I different? You know, I got into CrossFit in like 2008 or 2009. And I got like, really into training hard and I put on a lot of muscle and everybody was telling me how great I was and I didn't know how to take those compliments and so I got my ego big and so I wanted to continue to show up with that mask on I'm the fittest guy at this age. Okay, that's what I'm that's who I am. And dude, like almost works, but it does not. But for me I had to change the relationship to why I was doing it. I was doing it to me These expectations, these assumed expectations of others, they don't really fucking care, they were just probably trying to be nice. But when you don't have the right relationship to yourself, you start to take those on in different way. And I did it. So as I've started to understand who I am, I know how to receive a compliment now and I don't attach to it. Like, I have gratitude for it. And I don't let it do anything else, but just be a thing that someone shared with me. And now when I work out, I do it because I fucking want to because it's fun. It brings me joy in it, it helps to have 45 guys or 30 guys or 12 guys, I actually don't go and work up on myself anymore not that fun for me. Ah, that's all I used to do for fucking years was just me. I never liked working with other people.

Chase: The process was about you. The end result was about you. Now. It's about everybody else. 

Cal: it's about just getting in a collective because I'm still attending to my fitness, which is important. But it was the number one thing on my list before for different reasons. You know, and in. I mean, I can be such a dick, like, my kids would come in, and I'm like, getting ready to do like a heavy power clean. And I'm like, I'm fucking working out right now. And it's not to say that I won't work on myself, but I'm not called to it. I would work out by myself back then. Because I wanted to improve my power clean. I wanted to improve my snatch my friend time, whatever it was, I was fucking grinding. But no one else gave a shit about that this so I was chasing something for other people that no one cared about. So as I backed off that it's like, I mean, maybe I'll go ride the peloton, but I haven't done that in months. So it's just like, in people like do what do you do? Like, what's your workout? What do you eat, I'm like, I work out fucking once a week with you assholes.

Chase: Which is such a testament in and of itself to, when you do something and have joy in it, you do something and you have a you have or building a healthy relationship, like I was saying, and you do it with others, there are just so many other factors that contribute to a process such as fitness, such as dieting, such as physical activity that week, you can't even we can't we can't even understand or describe but it's working to get you on there 

Cal: when you're in alignment with who you are and what brings you joy. And I'm glad you brought that up because that is the one word for me. When I met Garen, joy and I've been orienting towards joy, since I started to understand the power of it, whether it's what I'm going to invest in how I'm going to spend my time. Certainly the workouts and once you do that all like you said, all these other things just fall into place. I don't know how I eat. I don't know what I'd work out with you guys. Like when you're in alignment, all that other stuff just takes care of itself. You're not in your head trying to figure out how do I your heart and so it's, it's very simple, doesn't mean it's easy, but it's very simple. Get clear on who you are. Make get clear on what brings you joy and those things that bring you joy, just invite more of those into your life. And the things that don't bring you joy. Just try to remove those, you know, or try to understand why they don't bring you joy. And if you really can't get to a sense of joy with them, then then do your best to not have them in your in your in your world. 

Chase: Absolutely. I agree. I want to a question came to mind when you were kind of describing going from the unknowing to the knowing when we get on the path to what do I believe? Who am I? What do I want? I've experienced things where what's the best way to say this? Like, I can't bring any of that with me. Like I it's like I know better now. And I don't want that kind of belief or I don't want to engage in these kinds of activities, or I don't want to be associated with kind of and so I think I just want to say the path to becoming the path to knowing ourself, often, at least for me, has felt like, still kind of just what do I let go of and what do I keep? What do I try to abandon? And what do I try to fully step into? and certain things I think are pretty clear but others? I guess my question is, are other things in our past life other things that can we bring them with us and somehow like, what can we use from the unknowing to step into the knowing that can still serve us or how do we kind of have this this filtration process or questioning process? 

Cal: Yeah, great question. And I think there's a lot in that. I would say for one the things in our past a dear friend of mine, Boyd Vardy really wise, wise man told me when we were podcasting, we had made a comment about my trading life. And he said, you know, when you learn to love trader Cal, there's real medicine in there for you. There's still a bit of shame I had around myself as a trader, it's not like I did anything wrong. I didn't do anything illegal. I was, you know, I was a faithful husband and all that. But there was shame that I here I am awakening to this other way of being in the world. It's like, oh, there was a time when I didn't think that way. So I tried to shed that. And it didn't work. I've embraced it. And it's hard, because I didn't really know how to but I was just open to it. And the way I really anchored into it was, I'm writing a book. And as I was working with my partner on it, we were riffing here for three days. And by day two, I start talking about trading and he's like, dude, you're fucking lighting up. All these messages in this learning and all the stuff and he goes by day three, because I was learning so much from you just talking through the lens of a trader. So for me to love that version of me was to be in that process of the book in the book is actually going to have some, some pieces of trading through the lens of traders, it's, it's, we're still kind of working that out. But it feels so appropriate. And that that's my healing of that, that version of me that I had some tension around. And so I think, to discard those things, like I said before, you can try and just see how it continues to show up in your life or you can learn to love that version of yourself with the grace that we were just talking about. And remember, even though you weren't a five year old, in that life, there's still a wounded five year old that is making decisions back then. So can you right, sit down with that five year old version of you that wounded five year old version of you and put your arm around yourself? And show yourself the love and compassion you would show any five year old? It's hard for us because we were our own worst critics. We got to start to understand that there's a wounded child in there. And they need love and compassion and grace. And the only one who can do it is ourself. So I'm in that practice right now. It's not easy. Say that. I forget. Yeah. Still hard on myself. But I'm much better.

Chase: I appreciate that insight, man. And I agree wholeheartedly. And it's definitely, it's like, the more you put yourself on this path to the knowing and stepping more into what you want. Just realizing that you can create all this. It's just, it sounds so overwhelming to say that it's never ending, but it's always fruitful. And it's fruitful in some ways that we're hoping for like, this is great. It's a breakthrough. It's all lovey dovey warm hugs. Other times, it's it comes wrapped in you know, really, really, really ugly box. 

Cal: And there's some big ass learning in that. And yeah, I love that you bring that up, because it's one of the things that is challenging for someone like me, who is the get to the finish line. Just like being in the process of that and be in the energy of it. There's so much. Yeah, there's just a lot of I keep coming back to Don Miguel Ruiz and the Four Agreements, when he talks in the beginning of the book, you made all these agreements. And now you have to unlock them. And I read that book probably five times before, like the sixth time I'm like, because I would just brush over those. There's no way I'm going to be able to do that. There's too many I don't even know what they are. And then I started understand, oh, when they come up, just look at them, get curious and then unlock them one at a time, you're not going to get to the end, you're going to have a greater awareness and that's, that's the key, I think, is to just to be in the process of questioning and being curious and being okay with where you're at.

Chase: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree and it's all the stuff that I used to hear of like, oh, I'm not in alignment with that. That's to woo-woo or cliche or whatever. But there's never been anything more true. And so I really hope that the person listening watching can really just hear that, that there is no answer other than like the one that you want to create for yourself, and just to keep showing up for yourself, keep staying committed to the process, and the process changes, like, you can be a maintenance phase of the process. I go through periods of that, where months will go by, and I'm just good, whether that's the ego or truth, you know, but I'm just good. But then something will happen. Or I will remember that I'm kind of coasting a little bit. And I'll just challenge something, or something will happen little T, big T. And I oh, here we go. Here we go. And instead of spiraling out of control, like I used to, or even worse, in my opinion, let me just compartmentalize this, let me step it down, because I remember what happens when you do that. Yeah, I remember all the nightmares, and the panic attacks, and just the loss and just things that I didn't want for myself in my life. And so like, pay attention to that, and just commit when it shows up and coast when you're coasting. And continue to be that example is I think one of my other favorite kind of takeaways from us, is the payback, the greatest thing we could ever do is to just show up for the process and let that resonate out. And that's how we change the world. Right?

Cal: There's truth in that. And that's not spoken word. It's you showing up as your true self and I think that's probably one of the biggest shifts I've had to is. I don't think anyone would say that oh, you know, he's fake. But I knew that I would go to a party. Three different people there. And I'd have to put on I felt like I had to put on different masks to different people

Chase: assimilate? 

Cal: Yes, yeah, exactly. And I just had this awareness. And again, it was around the time I met Garen, I was just kind of coming into this another awakening. And I just started showing up as me. And I started to see that that's fucking all anybody who ever wants. And then I started getting really clear on who I am and what I love. And just, it was it was, it was it happened like that. But yeah, many years in the making. And it made maybe sounds a bit cliche that nobody knows you better than you. But that's all people ever want. They don't want you to show up as some messed up, whatever. And we understand why I understand why I've done it. But now, like, I can be in a room full of I don't care who they are, I don't care how it's fucking Michael Jordan or whoever, like, I'm just me. And I realized that my medicine is what I have to share. And I don't need to show up any differently than that. 

Chase: describing that, and kind of getting towards the end here. I just want to say thank you, again, for opening up your home and your time. It's been really, really long time coming Man, I'm telling you before, like almost a year and a half, almost. Like you were February of 2020. It was quite literally, I think the last IRL thing that I did in in Los Angeles, were that big dinner, and then boom, everything shut down afterwards. So what I want to say before I get to the final question, I would love your feedback on this is, in my process, and in my committing to the knowing I have come back to certain people in relationships in my life, that I realized, like I was actually a bottleneck, in your path. And in in so was my own, and what I mean, I may struggle to kind of articulate this, but just knowing what I know, now looking back into past conversations and interactions with people, I kind of realized that they were, in a way testing me or probing me to, you know, where am I in my journey kind of thing. And then I would distinctly go back to how I would react to things how, what I would say, or even sometimes what I what I didn't say, and I realized like I was actually a limiting factor in our relationship, I was a limiting factor. And not to beat myself up. Because I didn't know any better at the time. But I've come back to them now and said, like, I've apologized and I can honestly tell that because they cared so much for me. They were keeping space for me. And they were giving me grace when I didn't even realize it. And I could come back to that now and be like, I am sorry for not being able to be show up for you as much as I could tell you wanted me to. And then now in doing so I'm showing up more for myself. And like I'm sorry for being a hindrance to our relationship. I'm just like, what could have been, you know, and it's all good. It all worked out now. But it's just it's one of those things where you don't fully realize not only your own potential, but when you do step into your potential. What that does the expansiveness it has for the right people in your life. If any of that made any sense. 

Cal: It totally did. And I would only I would, I would invite you to change one word, okay. And then, instead of saying, you know, I apologize, say I acknowledge. You didn't do anything wrong. You were exactly where you were at. And they were reaching out, and you weren't ready. And because of that, because you have the awareness of that it has opened you up. And now you know what that feels like you had to experience that to know, now, you know, and now you're moving forward differently. So I think that's beautiful. But I just, yeah, just there's no, there's nothing wrong with any of that, because you've met plenty of people where you've done you've extended the absolute and they're not ready. You don't feel like they need to come back and apologize in years come right. Similar to like, the mentor who gives us, you know, helps us find ourselves like, just continue to keep showing up like that. 

Chase: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So glad that I said that that hit me. Kind of just unlock something for me. Absolutely. And speaking of moving forward, that's what we're all about is having conversations here on the show to become more aware to these concepts that just propel us forward. Whether it's just one step 1%. Or maybe someone heard something today that is their catalyst. So how do we move forward Cal? How do we live a life ever forward? What does that mean to you?

Cal: It means not looking into the future, not staying in the future. It means staying in the now being. For me, it means being super clear, again, to what brings me joy, and continuing to take follow those breadcrumbs of joy. And then I am moving forward. It's, there's no other place to go. And I'm not trying to land on any particular goal, any particular outcome, I've given up on outcomes. I stay in the now and I get really clear, am I am I bringing things people experiences in my life that are bringing me joy? Great, fucking, I'm all good. Whatever happens down the road, is gravy. But all I care about is like, am I in joy. And as I've gotten super clear on that and oriented my life to that some really fucking cool shits happened, because I'm not trying to land on an outcome. And I think, unfortunately, we're taught that you set your goals and then you go get them. I know there's a place for goal setting. But it's just been bastardized. I think when we stay in the present about what really is alive for us, what lights us up, just think about that, like what lights you up, if you're not quite sure, do a little bit more work about who you are. But it could be something super simple. Maybe it's a fucking listen to music. So listen a little bit more music, spend time in the things that bring you joy. And then you'll start to attract people that you would never, they would have never shown up on your doorstep otherwise. But when you have that out into the world, when you share that frequency, I guarantee you your fucking mind will be blown by the people you meet and the experiences you have.

Chase: cannot agree more. I always tell everybody, there's never a right or wrong answer. But I really, really resonate with that. And it's because it's so true for me. And so anybody that's been a part of my journey here on the show, and in my content, like if anything I ever do, or say or the people that I bring on here impacts you, then, like, know that that is another one of those moments for me. It's just, it continues to blow my mind when you keep showing up for yourself what it not only does for your life, but just the people that it brings in, and the people that are already in it, just how much greater that becomes, the more space opens up between all of you. And then and then you turn back and one day like shit. How did it get so good? And it's because you kept focusing on the present. Just being there and being enjoy and being in fulfillment, or at least working towards it. And then all of a sudden you're like, wow, how did it How did I get here kind of thing? Well Cal of course all the information is will be down in the show notes for everybody. But where can they go to like, learn more about you and your work and your content? 

Cal: I say the best place is probably on Instagram. I share a little bit there. Cal Callahan and then my podcast, the great unlearn is probably find out the most about me and my guess that's very much this type of conversation. Like I just get in the weeds. And like let's figure out what we can share that might be useful for people. 

Chase: Absolutely. Well, dude, it's been a pleasure.