EFR 482: Using the Power of Storytelling to Heal Trauma and Create Connection with John Romaniello

John: Hello, I am John Romaniello bestselling author, storytelling mentor and overall consultant wunderkind and on today's episode of ever forward, I discuss storytelling and its power to heal trauma, form a connection, and above all, spread your message.

Chase: A good story might leave people in stunned silence. But a great story begets more stories. That is a quote from today's interview with the homie, the bestselling author, the renowned fitness entrepreneur and copywriter John Romaniello. Look in this interview, we dive deep into storytelling, but more than just telling a story understanding your story. Storytelling is a universal human phenomenon with a universal process for telling them and interpreting them. Today's guest goes in depth on how to use the power of storytelling to heal trauma from that connection, and spread your message. Listen in as John and I discussed the historical importance and development of storytelling, and his expert advice on crafting a story that can instantly turn you into a better communicator therefore, in my opinion, a better human being. John also gives his thoughts on journaling towards the end of the conversation, and why he prefers writing at night versus in the morning, as well as the power of journaling to reframe trauma, and open the doors to deep, deep healing. So if you feel like you have something to say, and you want to not only get better at saying it, but understand it to its core, the very fiber of its being. And today's message is for you. John is going to share with you very intricate and personal ways that he has found value to not only better understand his journey, his past his present his future, but how to even craft that into content, craft that into social media, into blogs, into books, and anywhere else that putting pen to paper can come in to hand. There's one thing that has had profound value in my life over the years. It is understanding my personal story, going all the way back to the very first even memory that I can recollect and to start there. If you think you don't have a story, I would challenge you to go back and visit what is the very first memory I have? What is the first thought what it what is that old, old thing in the back of my head that if I really dig deep I can probably recall, start there. That is the beginning of your conscious journey and just look back on your life. Glance through it like you would a photo book, a journal, a timeline movie, and just look at it as a story and I bet you will learn something new or revisit something that you want to re learn and understanding our past. To bring it more into a state of awareness and top of mind for our present can really help us truly write our own future literally and figuratively, thank you so much for tuning in here today. Thanks again to my guest, John for opening up his home in Austin, Texas. If you guys actually want to watch the video interview of this, I'll put the link to the YouTube channel down in the show notes. And you can watch the video there as well. And if you want to learn how to be a better copywriter, better writer, better storyteller, then I would highly encourage you to connect with John on Instagram, I will link his social media handle down in the show notes as well. You are in for a real treat this guy is one of the most well spoken, knowledgeable, articulate guys, I think, that I've ever had the pleasure of sitting down with.

John: to the greatest extent possible, how do we eradicate that impulse and not think about how do we create content that presents me in the best possible light? But how do we create content that serves the greatest number of people that has the greatest amount of value? Storytelling is the same. When you tell a story, even though it is your story, even though it happened to you, there has to be some sort of payoff in the end for the audience. The payoff can be well, now you know me better and were connected and on a one to one level that's great. But even if you look at some of the greatest storytellers in the world, who are comedians, stand up comics, the payoff there is the incredible level of enjoyment you got, from listening to the story, there's a punch line at the end. All of the detail, all of the moving parts of that story, matter more, because in the end, the weight all gets wrapped up in that bow and gives you this gift of laughter and telling stories really is a matter of figuring out what do they know, going into the story? What don’t they know that I need to fill in for them? And how do I bring them on this journey so that the end of that story gives them something? And it can't just be now you know more about me because unless you're already invested in me, unless we're friends and on a date, unless they're a potential customer, just knowing more about me doesn't serve them. That's not enough. It's not enough. The goal is what lesson is there? What level of its, when I say connection in this context, it's not simply now we know more about each other, and we're connected, it's how can they see themselves as one of the characters in that story? And what will they get from that? What lesson what piece of entertainment or education or emotional education, so that afterward, they feel it was worth their time?

Chase: which is crucial, especially now, we're always fighting for everybody's time. I feel like sometimes I'm even fighting for my own time, all these distractions and things that I can, I can get involved with this, I can read this, scroll that, like finding our own attention, sometimes I think is half the battle. And then it's you have to convey to someone in your audience or even somebody entirely new in your life, it's worthwhile to like stick through this post to stick through this blog to stick through this video, or whatever. So before we can get to the point to where we can do what you just described, to share to bring everybody into our world to be worth that payoff should we first be kind of going through that for ourselves like a dry run? We got to go through a storytelling process to kind of just even understand what our story is, before we can even try to tell it. 

John: When you say our story do you mean sort of our life story? Like the story of who we are? Do you mean any story that we're about to bring out? 

Chase: You know, good question, um, I think I'll be able to speak to the, to the first point of the life story, because I think that's what a lot of people are trying to like, what I'm trying to work on the most try to understand the most so that I can then share it with my audience share with people in my lives, to have that connection piece and kind of then go nature, if that makes sense.

John: So that I understand the question is what do we first need a process to then begin telling that story? 

Chase: Yes, yes.

John: sure. The process of storytelling is pretty universal. So the way that we both tell stories, and the way that we process information from stories, is not something that anybody created. It simply happens to be how we emotionally and psychologically process information that has been analyzed and then codified. And the person most well known for codifying it is Joseph Campbell with his model of the hero's journey or model, right? I studied Campbell in school, I wrote my thesis on Campbell. And so storytelling has been a big, big, it gets worked into Hollywood films. There's a great book called The Writers Journey, mythic structure for writers by Christopher Vogler, who was a Campbell devotee. It provided the very specific layout for the story of the first few Star Wars films. But the most important thing to remember there is Campbell didn't invent it. He was a mythologist, who looked, looked at myths across cultures, and found all of these commonalities. Why are there why is there a messianic myth in every culture? Why is Jesus so similar to Buddha and Krishna and Horace. There are things that these universal pieces exist because that that version of, of a messiah dying for our sins and then coming back and, and being forgiven, and also by virtue of that forgiving others, is really how we how we process the death of our former selves. It's very, very, pretty specific cultural and, and psychological thing. But to your to your question. Now, once we acknowledge that there is a sort of universal process that works well, its how do we enter into that? And it starts with framing. So I have broken storytelling down into just a five piece framework that more or less encompasses everything you need, and it's frame, hook, turn, dive, pay off. The frame is really the upfront the painting of the picture. Do you ever watch any movie there's an establishing shot, right? So like, when you're when you have the video for this podcast, you are visiting Austin, Texas, so you might have an establishing shot of the city of Austin so you people know where you are in space and time.

Chase: How important is that? Is that just I mean, you were saying it's pretty common, if not universal? Is that just because it's so important that it has to happen?

John: it's the orienting point, if you don't have that and you just then there's because if you don't establish where something is happening, then the audience has no other reference point other than where they are right now. And so they just assume it's happening, where they are. And this is a problem, right? So the, the greatest and most familiar frame is once upon a time, which is the framing device we use for fairy tales. And once you hear that, and you know, you're hearing a fairy tale, it establishes in your mind that anything can happen, there's gonna be trolls and dragons and frogs that turn into princes or whatever else but if I don't tell you, once upon a time, in a kingdom, very different from ours. If I just tell you that there's a princess and she kisses a frog, and the frog turns into a prince, that's very disorienting, because you are maybe listening to the story through the frame of where in reality, you have no way to anchor that, that this is a possibility, right? So the framing of any story establishes the floor and the ceiling of what can happen within the story, it sets the parameters. And we do that in our own stories with time and location. So geography and time are a very specific thing and this requires us to know what the audience knows about that time in place. And so if I'm going to tell you a story that happened to me, when I was 10 years old, it would, if there are things about that time period, that are relevant to the story, I need to establish that. So I was born in 1982, which means at 10 years old, it was 1992. And if you're an 18 year old kid and you weren't around, then there's something there's a disconnect there, I might have to remind you, so like at 10 years old in 1992, like my family didn't have cable, MTV barely exists like I have to fill in the gaps of why the story happening at this time period is specific and important, right? It was like, you know, everyone's view of their own past. It's like I was safer than but in 1992, in where I grew up in Queens, New York, it was it was actually a time of great uncertainty, it was very much have been drilled into your head, don't talk to strangers, beware of vans, or get home before dark because there were a lot of disappearances that were happening. And your parents expected not to hear from you for huge blocks of time, because they had no way to communicate with you. So you had to get home before dark, whereas kids day they like their parents text them and so there's less anxiety about getting home before dark. So if I'm trying to tell that story to somebody who wasn't there who didn't have a reference point for that, I need to set that reference point. So the frame is very specific. One that I always use is New York City because that is where I'm from. But if you've never been to New York, and I say, this story happened in New York City, I have to assume that your experience of New York is what you've seen in movies and on TV, you immediately assume time square, big buildings, very busy cabs everywhere, whereas that that's like a six block part of the city. That's not what New York is, like I hang out in the West Village and its all brownstones. So I might need to establish that whereas if you were from the city, I might give you a different detail. And you know, I might say so this happened down on Bleecker and Jones Street. And I immediately know that your mind zooms into that like a Google map and you see everything around you.

Chase: So in this part, sorry to interrupt you, but just to kind of paint a bigger picture here for the person listening to understand, am I hearing you that you at this point framing setting it up is like the homework necessary you already have to kind of have to be aware of the audience?

John: you have to be aware of the audience. And so, this is no different from copywriting or marketing, when you hone in on your customer avatar. What did they know about? Like when we talk about market sophistication and customer sophistication what do they know about their own problem that you're trying to solve? What do they know about your product or service? And also, what did they know about your competition so that they have maybe a reference point for where you sit in relation to those people that your level of credibility is above there. So storytelling, and marketing, they're really not different because we're always telling the story. And you, the best storytellers will have some way of assessing or determining ahead of time, how much this audience knows about the storyteller, about the place or time. What are the assumptions we can safely make, and build the story from there, sometimes you're going to give more detail than some of the audience might need. Right? If I'm giving detail about New York, the New Yorkers won't need it, but it they'll sit through it. But if I don't give that detail, then all of the people who aren't from New York, are going to be lost when I when I tell this specific thing. And so you don't necessarily pander to the lowest common denominator, you decide you make an educated decision. How much information do they need? So if I tell you that I've wanted to write a book since I was eight years old, that was, you know, I don't need to tell you that I was eight years old in 1990 because that's not relevant. What I need you to see is eight year old me because through that, you get to be like, what, what was what did I want to do when I was eight years old? What about being a child and having a big dream is going to come up for you? So the fact that I'm eight is more important than the fact that it was 1990 because I need to see myself as an eight year old boy and so the time period doesn't matter. It doesn’t matter if I was 8 in 1990 and you were in 8 in 1993 those things are irrelevant. What matters is the feeling of being a child.

Chase: going back to the same moment in time, even though that moment in time is different for both of us. Right.

John: And so the way the story, so the framing is determined, in part by what the audience knows, but also, what's the rest of the story? What's the emotional impact? What do they need to feel?

Chase: So much goes into just even just setting it up and then from here, this is where we begin to pour a heart out, spill our guts, pen to paper, text, whatever. And we're saying read before we hit record that you think a lot of people say too much? Is this kind of where we go from framing to saying too much? Is this the slippery slope? 

John: The biggest, the biggest mistake that most people make when they're telling a story is they just go off on all of these tangents. It's helpful to think about levels of connection. So, here's a great example. You and I have a personal relationship. So I can tell you a story about me. That's one degree. You also have a personal relationship with my partner, Amanda. So I can tell you a story about Amanda. That's still one degree. But let's say, I've not I've not met your wife, right? So if you tell me a story about her, that's two degrees and if you now tell me a story about her sister, or someone that she works with, that's three degrees. I'm invested in that story because I care about you, I only know you we have a personal relationship, I can carry that over one degree or two degrees rather, to your wife but beyond that, it gets slippery. And so we I see this so I do some Relationship Coaching and I see this relationship all the time, is, someone will complain, it's like he never listens when I tell him a story and it's like, well, you're telling him a story about someone he's never met and the problem they're having at work with another person he's never met so it's very challenging for this person to be invested. And so generally, the rule is, don't tell a story about someone three degrees away or more otherwise, it's it becomes very challenging. Most people don't have the skill to tell that story and weave those threads. But emotionally we can't be invested about people we like I don't care. We don't care about that person. And so there's all these tangents and then the other the other thing is when people tell stories in person, they go off on side quests, these places. So you know, I might be telling you a story about this thing happened to Amanda and I in New York City and then I go off on a side quest about another character who is there like so Amanda's twin sister was there and so for you guys who don't know Amanda's twin sister, Lindsey she's like, yeah, I have to like fill in this character. It's like she's very different from Amanda she's a pageant girl. You know, she's got this beautiful girlfriend, Mary Kate. It is like, don't do that like, you got to, you got to have a through line, you have to stay focused and any time that we, that we deviate from that, and there's a new character, it has to circle around to the main character. A great example, when you are an amazing storyteller you can do this, and you could do it well. So in Kill Bill, we've got the bride played by Uma Thurman and there are all these other characters that are in some way related to her. And we meet the character of O-Ren Ishii as she relates to the bride. But she gets this whole little side chapter about her because and we go into her backstory that she is the son of a Japanese American soldier and a Chinese woman. And so she grew up in Japan, she eventually rises to the head of the Yakuza in Japan, which is impossible for one, let alone one of Japanese, Chinese American sent. And because Tarantino is so incredible, and that chapter is its own self contained story, and can relate back to the bride, he can do that. Most of us are not Tarantino. So it's a very challenging thing to do. He does it again, in an Inglorious Basterds when there's this random side tangent about Hugo Stiglitz, you know, Tarantino does this incredibly well, most of us should not be trying to imitate him. Most of us should not be starting stories in the middle and then circling back to the beginning only to find ourselves plunging headline headlong into the end. Most of us should be telling stories start to finish that beginning to end that makes most sense to you again, at the beginning. And the mistake that I see people make very often is trying to flesh out the entire world, instead of focusing on one or two characters. And, and just bringing us through the, the feeling of emotion throughout that story. It's a story about you and your wife, to the greatest extent possible. Let's have it be about you, if it's you and your wife and dinner and there was a waiter, who was a terrible waiter and the story is really about how you and your wife have very different experiences and different reactions to poor service in the restaurant. That waiter is an important character and you can flesh him out. But ultimately, it has to come back to how you and your wife deal differently with that experience.

Chase: I love what you're tying in and kind of talking about how we engage with other people how we talk and communicate. And I would even say tell stories with other people in our lives, your example of a couple, and you're trying to get one person trying to get the other person to probably just listen to them, but also listen to what they're trying to say because they're trying to make a point, they're trying to smooth out a wrinkle in the relationship or whatever. How big of a role the question here how big of a role is getting better at storytelling is in our like, one on one interactions with other people? Because we have driven kind of ask the right question here. So we want to talk to the people and we want to get them on our side we want to make the relationship better and we just talk we don't really I would say a lot of us story tell. How can we use the art of good storytelling to be a better communicator, especially in a one on one relationship?

John: When we're just talking, we're usually relating events or feelings. If you're relating an event, that's a story, what happened to you at work today is a story. You start you started the day when you went to work, events happened and then work ended and you came home. There is a once upon a time. That's it, there's a timeline, and knowing how to create to pick the things that are the most interesting and create like a cohesive narrative and explain to someone what happened in your day, even if it's not interesting it could be interesting to them because this person cares about you. I want to know what happened in Amanda's day, right? I care about Amanda's day; we do the same thing for a job we both do consulting and coaching. She's doing it in the bedroom right now while we're doing this. And so I spent a lot of time in the office, we have another office area downstairs and she spends a lot of her time doing her calls and if we don't tell each other what happened in our day, my assumption is okay, Amanda's day she woke up, we walk the dogs, she coached a couple of clients, we walk the dogs again, I made her lunch, she coached more clients, I coached more clients and that's the day but where's the connection? And so the opportunity for connection is in when I say hey, how was your day? Amanda might tell me today was challenging. A lot of my clients are struggling with personal problems that are manifesting in their business and that came up in our in our call on the mastermind. And it gives me an opportunity to ask, well, what are some of those problems and it gives her an opportunity to explain them. And I'm interested because Amanda is great coach. And she could just tell me like, yeah, work was hard today. And that was it. But if I'm if she doesn't tell it to me as a story, or if I don't engage with it as a story, then I don't get to hear all the ways that Amanda supported her clients. And what an incredible coach she is. And I get to ask and she tells me the way that she the things that she said or the ways that she stepped up. And I just get to be amazed because to her she's just doing her job but to me, I'm like this is this is my partner and she's she killed it. And I'm so excited to connect with that. But if we don't do that, if we just live in separate worlds, and she does her job her way, and I do my job my way. We have this incredible level of expertise in what we do, and we don't get to show off for each other. And that's it's an opportunity for connection and collaboration. And it's an opportunity to be in awe of and amazed by the person I'm in love with. But we have to, we have to engage with it. So when she starts to tell it to me as a story, I'm automatically wrapped with attention. And this is a really simple thing to do. Amanda tells me story like obviously she's been through my storytelling. But she'll tell me stories about maybe clients I know so there's more context, or she'll tell me a story and she'll start with these are the things that are universally challenging for people. Right now I have a lot of white women in my mastermind and with all that that's happening with racial violence, many of them are not sure how to show up online. And, you know, I struggle with that myself. So now there's a, there's a conversation of universality that is really engaging,

Chase: it went from her telling you about her day to a story, you're kind of both weaving together.

John: When you can do that when you can give someone a story and kind of, you know, it's encapsulated and self contained they get to see their own experiences in it. There is a wonderful quote by Chuck Palahniuk, who's the author of Fight Club, he wrote a book called Consider This, which is a book about writing and in it, he says, a good story might leave people in stunned silence but a great story begets more stories, which is to say that when you tell a story well, when it's a great story, other people are encouraged, not to sit there and stunned silence and be like, wow, John Chase, great storyteller, but rather to say, yes, I can relate to that even though that's wildly different from my own experience, the emotions that that brought up with me remind me of this. A compulsion to share and connect and that's the goal.

Chase: Something you said in there, I want to pick apart a little bit. It's the listening aspect. So we were talking about storytelling? How can we be a better listener? How can we listen, especially with a business partner or a significant other or whatever how can we consciously choose to listen with an ear for a story that makes any sense so that maybe we know the right questions to ask to, like pull this out of our other person, or just to make sure, because I'm sure you're like me, when we when we ask our partners how was your day? It's not just like a bullshit line. We actually care. Because I want to know what happened. And I want to connect with you more. So how can we consciously listen better through like the ear of a story?

John: be willing to look stupid, and ask questions. And so again, if your partner is telling you, if you're if your wife is telling your story that happened at work, and she brings up this character, you can just say, like, just put your hand up just like real quick. Which one is she again? 

Chase: I'm so glad you said be willing to be stupid looks stupid because I've done that. I've told you about that. I've told you about her a million times, right? I'm like tell me again. 

John: but then you say like, I know you have I'm just trying to keep everyone straight. But I'm asking because I want to be with you in this story. And just if you don't, and if she's telling a story, and this is one of the central characters, and you don't know who this person is, then you have this like faceless blob, whereas if she tells you know, it's Shannon, you met her at the Christmas party, blonde girl, she married you know, she's dating that tall guy who is a dick you know, Now I have this person's face. I know your relationship. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. Thank you so much. Please continue. You're saying about Shannon. And so a lot of people think that interruptions are rude. And interrupting with your own bullshit is rude. Asking for clarification, in a very polite way makes people feel hurt. It's tremendously different. It's, it's, you know, it's active listening. And that's the big thing that you need to be doing when you're listening to anyone's story. Right? If you if a comedian is on stage, there are points in the story that are funny, and it's not rude to laugh, don't hold your applause till the end, engage with the story laugh at the funny parts. When your partner or anyone is telling you a story there are parts where it is appropriate to have like a wow like, that's crazy. I can't believe that. So what did you say? These are, this is how we have conversations. You don't have to hold back. Active listening is active; passive listening is just like waiting for your chance to talk. And we don't want to do that. So when someone is telling a good story, encourage them to go deeper. Ask for more questions. Ask other questions. Ask, how can we how can we go a little deeper? How can we clarify something for ourselves? And so I'll tell you a story now. I'll take this opportunity to tell you a story. This is a true story. And I just want you to for the people listening I'll tell you a story about a character. You all know. There's a man by the name of Denzel Washington. This is this is a true story. In May of 2015 I was I was in Los Angeles still living there at the time I was married to my ex wife, which is not important to the story. But I was in LA I was and I went to Whole Foods in Venice on the corner of Lincoln and Rose. It's a bit giant Whole Foods. And I went there to get avocados, because it was Cinco de Mayo. And I was supposed to get them for guacamole. And so I'm walking in the produce section. And who do I see at the avocado station with that huge bin with all the avocados is Denzel Washington. I recognize him and I'm not an I'm not like a star fucker. I'm not a celebrity person. So I don't want to like go over and start looking at avocados because in my head, I will think i think that Denzel will think I'm not really interested in avocados. I'm just there to see him because he's there. And I'm like, I don't want to do that. I'm gonna let the man have his privacy. I'm gonna let him spend some time with his avocados. And I'll just like be over here looking at apples. That was my thought process. At some point, I get engrossed in the apples. And I look over and it's been five minutes and Denzel is still at the avocado station. He's still in this bin. And so I'm like, okay, Denzel this is this is getting excessive. And so I wait another five minutes and I'm wandering around the produce section. And I get I get some Pico de Gallo for my guac and I look over this man it 's now 10 minutes 15 minutes Denzel is still picking out avocados and I'm thinking, just maybe he needs a lot like does he have a huge is he filling a barrel? So I walk around, so I have a different vantage point so that I can see what's happening there. And at this point, I am I am engrossed in this, this experience, I'm watching Coach Boone touch he squeezes every single avocado, every single one like, I mean, it's insane. Like, trying to find avocados that meet his exacting avocado standards, whatever these were, and I watched this go on for another 10 minutes, which means now this entire were 25 minutes into this avocado experience. Eventually, Denzel goes away. Right? Okay, Denzel see you, man on fire leaves. And so I go over to the for a man who spent 25 minutes. Keep in mind, I got there and it was 25 minutes, he might have been there an hour before. So for a man who spent an exorbitant amount of time touching and feeling all these avocados, he leaves with not that many, I would say 15 avocados, which is a lot, but it's not you know. And so now I go over. And I'm, I got to pick out my avocado but after the display he put on, I feel like I can't just randomly grab avocados, I have to be like, I have to put some effort into this. And so now I'm squeezing avocados. But it occurs to me. I don't I don't know what I'm looking for. I don't know why. I have no conception of why I'm spending this much time. I know that a very soft avocado was very ripe and a very hard one is not. But I am now touching every avocado squeezing them with the exuberance of like a 13 year old kid who's touching his first boob. And I'm like a kid in a candy store grabbing all these titty fruits being like, what is the right avocado that because I don't like I don't like I'm just gonna take his rejected avocados like I'm some sort of avocado, like I'm some fucking avocado chump like Denzel take all the good ones. So but at this point, I'm starting to get and I'm getting anxiety about this experience. And I don't know what I'm doing. I realized I don't know what I'm doing. And now other people might be looking at me and I hate that. And so eventually, I my experience turned so sour that I said fuck it. I'm not getting the avocados. And I just bought a bunch of apples. And I went home. And I got in a big fight with my ex wife because you can't make guacamole from apples, which was the reason I went to Whole Foods in the first place. And since that day, I have hated both Denzel Washington and avocados. And that is a true fucking story. So you see, outside of that being generally funny. Let's look at the breakdown of that. So firstly, I introduced you to a character that you know, all right. I seated a character, my ex wife, you don't really need to know about her, you know that we're divorced. She's an ex wife. And so then we get to the end of story, we get to the payoff. It's like we had a fight about me not getting avocados and you're like, okay, that marriage is probably doomed. Like if that's where they're biting off. But I seed this other character. And then I walk you through it, like a temporal experience, a timeline of like, here is why I didn't go I gave you justification for why I didn't want to go over there immediately. Like, I don't want I don't want him to think that I'm just there for him. And thank God I didn't because I would have just been there with him for 15 minutes. But I walk you through it like five minutes at a time.

Chase: Could you imagine what he the altercation that might have happened if like he is committed there for his half hour experience of getting avocados that he would probably call security on you and it would have gotten weird.

John: It would have gotten weirder. So I walk you through this experience five minutes at a time. I'm like leaving him alone. It's been a while now. It's 15 minutes, eventually, 25 minutes, and he leaves. And now I give you my emotional experience of trying to figure out what could he have been doing over here, et cetera. And then I eventually wound up in such anxiety over my avocado indecision that I like said fuck it and I left and the whole thing was pointless. But it was funny. It's a funny story, because it's true. And you know, I referenced man on fire, or if it was Coach Boone, you know, I talked about avocados as to the fruits because he really there you know, like you're trying to feel like some of this feels like a fake boob. This feels like a very natural boob. And then at the end, the payoff is I got anxiety I left. So I didn't know we didn't have guac for our Cinco de Mayo party. And I got in a fight with my ex wife. And it's like, it's funny. The process of that is pretty straightforward, right? You were engaged with it, you laughed. I gave you things to pick up on I specifically said man on fire. I didn't know you love that Denzel movie. But I referenced a few things to remind the audience, but talking about a fucking a list movie star, who is spending a half hour picking out his own avocados, which is a thing he does not need to do. But apparently we think it's very important to him. He is very specific. He can trust this to an assistant; he's probably fired five people for getting this wrong. And but just those reminders throughout the story, that's what I call it dive. It's just giving more data. That reminds you like, oh, yeah, that is odd. It just, it's more detail, its depth. And those make for great stories. And so when you're when you're telling stories in your own life, even when they're about yourself, remind people while they're listening throughout, this is a story that happened to me in you know, in 2015 and I was at Whole Foods and I gave you the location so that all the people on the West Coast are like I know that whole foods held the people who have never been there like it doesn't matter. I just know what the big Whole Foods I didn't just say the supermarket because it was a whole foods and the fact that is like why would Denzel be just in our heads it makes sense to see Denzel Washington at a Whole Foods instead of at a grocery store.

Chase: I'm still just like, in my head thinking about what would Denzel Washington look like fondling avocados for half an hour? And how many other people probably are going through the same thing in their heads as you were. Did he just have complete Dominion?

John: He did, like nobody was going over, I see it very clearly. It's this like four foot by four foot giant bin of avocados that's like sub divided inside. And you know it's over by the gross packaging session where you can like fill bags with nuts, and dried fruit and all that it's over there. And then to the right of that the far right is the rest of the produce section where I was creeping around waiting for this man to finish probably

Chase: like someone other people probably thought you were like lurking on them.

John: I tried to I tried to play I was on my phone a lot. You know, I was just okay, I'll just like scroll the gram or whatever else. That was an experience. But my point is, and the telling of that story, I tried to I tried to bring everyone along for the ride. And that's what a great story is you can see it. You can experience it. But I need to know what the audience knows, right? Your audience knows Denzel Washington. I know they know Whole Foods as a brand and that makes sense for those two things to interact. They don't know me or that I was married. So I have to bring in my ex wife. They don't know, probably the location, but they know what avocados are and so there's it's a well crafted story. And every one of us has these things happen to us every day. This is the weird thing that happened to me on any particular day. But it's a story I love to tell. And it's a story people love to hear. And what are the stories about the time you went on vacation and had to leave three days early because you got sick? Or there was a reason for that? There are all of these things, but a big thing is consequence. So in stories, and this is a big mistake people make so if you're listening and you want to be a better storyteller, this is something things do not happen in sequence they happen in consequence, which is to say something happens and makes something else happen. There's a causality this because of that. If you're telling a story and your connection between scenes or actions and then we've got a problem. Things happen because of something else. This happened because this happened, or this happened in spite of this happening. So the words that you want to use are but or because; think of those two words. So I wanted to go get avocados, but Denzel Washington was there. And then I so I waited because I didn't want to look like a creeper. There's a reason for every action in the story. 

Chase: you're then actually saying what you would hope everybody would infer otherwise.

John: But you can't assume right people were in for that. The Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the founders or the originators of South Park, they had a great section on this, that puts it in much the same terms and they look at their each episode, like a three act structure and if they have something that's and then it's not going to work, there has to be a reason, okay? It has to be a but or because there has to be something that makes it join otherwise, we're in, we're in trouble. And things get very boring very quickly, I went to the store. And then I saw Denzel Washington. And then I waited for him to finish picking out his avocados. And then I went and tried to pick up my avocados. And then ultimately, I didn't do that. And then I got in a fight with my wife,

Chase: which the way that you just described it, write that in there. I'm laughing, because it's that is how so many bullshit fights and things start between couples, between people because you just you get short and choppy and then what you're actually doing is again, hoping that person's going to infer the same experience you had, but you're not bringing them along for the story and sharing that experience. Imagine like if you I don't know what you did with your ex wife. But imagine if you came home and gave her the exact same story you told me and I was her, I don't know. It may or may not have ended she

John: she thought it was hilarious. After the fact but she was like, we still need these fucking avocados. She had to go back. And I was I was like, I, I cannot deal with this. Like, what if I go back and like a different celebrity is picking out avocados? So she was just, you know, it was it was it was a small argument, but it was emblematic of a larger series of issues in that marriage. But if I just walked in, and I said I didn't get the avocados because the Washington was there. 

Chase: It reminds me about that scene in the breakup when Vince Vaughn is tasked with going to get 12 lemons, Jennifer Aniston for their, like a dinner party. And he just goes he gets I think was like six or seven lemons and she's like, I asked you I needed 12 lemons because well, I got you lemons. I got you lemons. We talked about it. Well, no, baby, I got  you lemons, no baby, we need 12 lemons. I got you got you seven. And it's just it's this whole altercation that happens because you just chose to not tell what happened and why. You know, seven versus 12. 

John: that's very funny me because I there was another fight for my ex wife over lemons, 

Chase: you guys can and produce just don't mix 

John: it is a whole thing.

Chase: I want to shift gears a little bit in. This is all been so helpful. Thank you so much for breaking all this down for us here. One of the most profound ways I have found in understanding my story first, before I would ever even try to share it, to tell it to speak it to post it whatever is I got to get it out of my head and out of my heart and through the practice of journaling helped tremendously. Now I first got into journaling, probably it's been like six years and I didn't know that I was doing it was just going through a lot in my life. I have feelings and emotions and things that were top of mind and things that just came out when I was writing that I had no idea were even there. I would not say at all it was in story format. What benefit would you say is ever somebody looking to just even just peek into the curtain of the story of their life through the art of journaling? Just to get started. But then also, do you think we need to have a sense of storytelling when we're journaling even if it is just for us?

John: I certainly think it helps. I have been journaling most of my life and I do it very differently. Journaling has definitely become sort of   these days, and it's very popular, the entrepreneurial set. But most people tend to do it in the morning which is how we're taught now to journal right. You have more time for it. Do your gratitude and set your intentions for the day. That's not how I learned how to journal. I learned how to journal I started the way that Captain's did it on ships. They did it at the end of the day and they record the day; captain’s log and you know when this from Star Trek and but a big influence on me and I'm going to date my How old are you? 

Chase: 35 

John: Okay, I'm going to date myself here I'm 39 as little show called Doogie Howser staring Neil Patrick Harris has started way back in the day, he was a boy genius who made it through medical schools and doctor at like 14 and was like, I remember in the opening credits of the scenes, like wiz kid breezes through high school in nine weeks, and then he makes it through college. And he's, he's a doctor at 14 years old. And so we're experiencing this like fish out of water tail of this young kid. But the end of every episode, Doogie would sit down at his old like fucking Commodore 64 computer and journal and he would at the end of every episode, talk about like, the lessons he learned in the experience of whatever happened in the episode. That always stuck in my head. And then there's a scene I mean, the entire frame story of the movie stand by me. So in that movie, it's based on a Stephen King story called the Body and for young boys go and they hear that this kid has been killed and they go on this journey to find this body and it's it starts a young Kiefer Sutherland and on River Phoenix, Jerry O'Connell who was the fat kid and standby he grew up to not be fat anymore. Corey Feldman but the frame story is an older man, Richard Dreyfuss, who is writing the story. He is one of the kids and he was the Jerry O'Connell character. And the end of it is, is so brilliant. You know, it's the, that the main story of finding the body and eventually making it home has been resolved. And so this resolution is denouement, as it's called in storytelling, the French word is him sort of tying up all the ends where all these people wound up. One kid kind of got lost in the 60s, another one, stepped in between two there was an altercation at a gas station, he got stabbed in the throat and died instantly and he writes, I never again had any friends, like the ones I had when I was 12. Jesus does anyone? And I remember seeing this when I was a kid. And even now as a, as a man and a writer, there's something so incredibly poignant about that, that stuck with me that I remember thinking, I want to remember what this feels like because at some point, it won't feel like it does now. The goal for me became to, at the end of every day, or at the end of the day, not the beginning of the day, like people do it now. Or they're setting their I don't want to know what I was hoping that the day would become when I look back. I don't; that it's irrelevant. That's immaterial. I want to know, at the end of the day, or at the end of the week, what happened? What's my summary? And what's my perspective on it? Because when I am looking, when I'm looking through these journals years later, trying to glean all of the different ways I've become a different, or a better person, I want to know, at the end of an event, what was I thinking about it? And now do I have does this person have differing thoughts on what I could have done? And the answer is almost always yes. And we are telling our own stories. And I'll circle back here. The story that we tell online on the internet is the story of our life, but we tell it in not just chapters, we also tell it as different characters. You mentioned earlier that I've been on a lot of podcasts, right? So I started my career on my internet career. My first fitness article was published in 2002. I was 20 years old. I was writing for tea nation, I was a group programmer and a good I could write good training programs and good and good articles. I was good writer, I was trained. And because of that, I got published, right. So I have this long internet history of being 20 years old. I'm 39 now so I've been writing content on the internet for nearly half my life. That's a long tale of me to find on the internet and there's different versions of myself and there was the fitness guy and then like the online fitness guy and then the fitness business guy and then the bestselling author and then it turned into sort of like the mental health advocate and then the business and consultant guy and now all of these different things. And now you go on and you go to my Instagram and you mostly find me doing q&a is where I'm talking about BDSM, and kink and polyamory because every single time I've shared more of myself, like all of those things were present right from about the time I started writing, like I was I got into kink when I was 25. So, like, shortly after that, but it didn't get talked about until maybe a year or two years ago because more and more, when I share, people tell me how much it helps them. But there's something about becoming a new person. And going back to old stories and seeing them with if you can get to a place of objectivity, getting fresh eyes on an old story is very helpful. I recently, you know, when you grow up, and you there's some book hits you; Catcher in the Rye for a lot of us. There's something, you know, this angstyness of Holden makes it feels relatable and then I go back and I read this book now like, this kid fucking sucks. I hate this asshole. And I'm like Jesus that must mean if I relate it to him so hard when I was a teen, I must have fucking sucked. And so going back and I read my old fitness articles. And just like the tone, and it was very clearly, I was trying to provide value, but it was also in service to my ego, I wanted to look cool. And now I have no desire to so I see the way that I've changed. And even the way that not just I relate to stories, but tell them and the details and the underpinnings of those stories. When I was early, when I really started teaching writing, people would always ask this question, how do you? How did you become a writer? Have you always been a writer? And I would say when I was eight years old, I told my mother I wanted to write a book and she asked me why and I said, because books make me happy and I want to make other people happy, too. And that's it's a cute story. And it's very awe. What do you take away from that story?

Chase: There's a lot of reflection there. There are a lot of a lot of times that you have shown up to do the thing that you want to do, but have just been right on the cusp of it. And it sounds like only now, almost two decades later, have you kind of transcended through maybe some personal barrier or societal barrier of actually telling the stories, storytelling communication in a way that that you've always wanted to write and kind of going back to your original root cause of the eight year old, I want to help people and make people feel better.

John: When we look at just that story of an eight year old boy saying I want to write a book it's cute, it's adorable; eight year olds are adorable. Books make me happy. I want to make other people happy too. So if you just take that story, and extrapolate from it, what a published bestselling author must feel about himself. There's accomplishment, achievement, etc but when I look back to the context in which that conversation was happening, I grew up in an abusive household without a lot of money and so as an eight year old, I said, books make me happy. But what I was saying what I didn't have the language to say at eight years old was books make me feel safe. Books are an escape; whatever is happening in Middle Earth, or Krin, or Narnia, wherever else I was going with all the goblins and dragons and orcs with all the danger that still felt safer than the abusive environment in which I was growing up. 

Chase: The language you weren't saying was I made me feel happy because I am not happy, right? They made me feel safe because I am not safe. 

John: All I knew how to say what books make me happy and I want to make other I want to make up stories so that other people could hide when they're afraid. You're when you're eight you don't have language for that. So if I were to just tell that story, the way I used to tell it, the goal of that story is be like, well, you know, I'm gonna teach you how to write this a sales copy for a writing course that I'm offering. And I want you to know that I have been taking this craft seriously since the time I was eight years old. And then I went to college, and I studied psychology and English and marketing, and I'm really good at this shit. And I've been doing it my entire life. I want you to walk away with that message that I'm able to help you I'm qualified, I'm credible and those things are true but if we look at the underpinning, so when we look at that story with fresh eyes, when I look and I've worked through a lot of the trauma that I've been through in the abuse, I can say that so much of the impetus to study writing and to be able to do it was safety. It was an escape. It was also there was a positive feedback loop. I was good at it and I got praise and I needed that validation instead of abuse. So there's more to that story that when you just read it on the surface, it's cute and interesting, and it serves its purpose but when you go levels deeper, it is a deeper story, and being able to look back on those things. And the times when I came to that realization, having that in my journal, that's the stuff that is very valuable to me. That's the stuff that, you know, if I ever become a person of great enough consequence that there is a biography, like that stuff is interesting but more importantly, in I'm the biographer of my own life, and I want to see the things and the mistakes. And journaling at the end of a day, or week or event and seeing what actually happened, and how I feel about what happened and the lessons I learned that has always seemed more valuable than waking up in the morning and setting my intention for a good day and here are all the things I hope are gonna happen and here's what happened yesterday. I think there's value there as well. But I think writing for five minutes in the morning, and 30 minutes at night, is a much more valuable practice than writing for 35 minutes.

Chase: Yeah, I would agree. I love how you kind of clarified there that there is value in sure there is value to be had? And for many people, personally speaking, that's where I started was, let me let me first just put pen to paper, let me see what comes out. Let me put my to do list. I mean, it was just a hot mess of brain dumping really and then it progressed into went from brain dump kind of like in the evening action, I'm kind of talking out loud, of just here's what happened in my day, here are my thoughts. There's no rhyme or reason. There's no format to it. It's just let me get it out in the morning, I would go look and kind of reflect on it. And then so as I think, yeah, now that I'm saying all that loud, I think I was aligned with what you're talking about. But it still was just kind of in reverse for me. In the evening, getting all out the Captain's log kind of thing and in the morning looking at why did this happen? How do I feel about it? How is this gonna possibly influence my day to day kind of thing? Well kind of getting towards the end here. Man. I want to say thank you again, so much for your time and having me into your home here on birthday weekend. One other question before I want to get to the final question. And what you're just talking about is like the layer beneath the layer. And when we do look back and kind of have that Captain's log lens of, here's what happened in my day, my week, my month, my life, we will come very, very close face to face, if not even relive a lot of those layers underneath the layer. And again, personally speaking, this is what has happened to me, and has helped me immensely. Not only is my mental health, my personal development, business development, but understanding my story so that I can better tell it and more importantly, our I think our ultimate mutual goal is to have a better connection with our audience to have a better connection with the people in our lives. And there's a lot of shit that comes up a lot of traumas, a lot of hard times bad times, things that you maybe don't even fully recognize or choose to recognize and the subconscious what would you say to somebody who, when they're going through this Captain's log journaling storytelling process, and they come face to face with one of those things how crucial, how important is it, to weave that into your story to kind of come face to face with it again, and not just run away from it and exclude it from the story, whether it's for your own personal understanding or for the world?

John: There's not a lot of value in running as a general rule, particularly running from yourself because it's just coming with you. I think that when you are faced with things that have happened to you, or faced with things you have done, putting them in the context of a story is a very effective way to work through them. We don't just do things that you know if you if you look back on your life, and they're places that you're not proud of, things that you were ashamed of having done you didn't just do them because you're a shitty person. You didn't just do them because you'd like hurting people. You didn't do them exclusively because you're selfish. For most of us, in our lives, at various points are careless with other people's emotions. Most of us are selfish at various points. Most of us make occasionally poor decisions. Very few of us are nefarious, very, very few of us are malicious very few of us are sociopaths or psychopaths, like sitting in twisting our mustaches and thinking what is the exact most hurtful thing I can do? And how can I string that and other hurtful things together like combos so that I could destroy another person's life? And the aftermath of something horrible a breakup or cheating or whatever that is how someone might present you. But that's not the case. It's not the case that they didn't do that. And you didn't do that. You weren't sitting there trying to twist your moustache, right? Creating a character avatar of yourself, and then trying to figure out their backstory and why they would do these things, making it not you, telling that story, but how they how they got there, right. In my, in my former in my marriage when I was dishonest when I was infidelities, when I was cheating on my wife, I didn't, I did not stand up in front of all my friends and family and have this big, expensive, extravagant wedding and say to all of the people in my life, you I, it's you, I pick you, I'm going to love you forever, with the intention of then blowing the whole thing up. That's not a thing that people do. I got to this place. Because over the time we were married, I learned a lot about myself and about her and I realized there were incompatibilities and I was a coward. I didn't know how to say, this doesn't work. And this is the thing I've always wanted. And maybe I'm broken for not wanting it anymore. And I hate myself for not wanting it. So I'm going to do the only thing I know how to do, which is sabotage. And in the meantime, I'm going to cheat because if I can siphon off joy from this other situation, to help me cope with the fact that this thing I've committed to is not going to work for me maybe that'll help me survive a little longer as powerful. And ultimately, still feeling ashamed and contempt for myself and eventually meeting to see this feeling this hatred. I had the self loathing reflected in the eyes of the woman I love the most because I didn't stop loving my wife because I was cheating on her and I just, it was just not going to work and when you when I write about this situation, and I make myself a neutral character who isn't me, I'm just like, well, why would a person who loves who why would this happen? And it's very clearly a pattern of events where she wasn't giving me the understanding I needed. When there were times where I was honest with her and would say very scary things and I would immediately get attacked. And I was like, okay, well, being honest, isn't safe. And, you know, and it doesn't just work for yourself. Like when I when I go back, and I and I and I use the storytelling method to help my clients work through their emotional stuff. I look at my own father, who was very abusive to me and my mother. It is not the case that on my birthday on April 8 of 1982, I was born in a snowstorm in April in New York City. It's not the case that somebody took this seven pound eight ounce baby boy, and put him in the arms of his father and that father looked down into the eyes of his child and said, I cannot wait to break your ribs when you're seven years old. That didn't happen. My father was probably in that moment filled with love and care and thought, I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect this child. And then at seven years old, I spilled a bottle of scope mouthwash, and tried to cover this up by filling it with water and when asked about it, I lied to my father and the result of that was a beating that broke three of my ribs. And when I say I'll just give you that out loud you're just like, well, how can anyone do that to their child? There's no circumstance under which breaking a child's ribs for spilling mouthwash seems reasonable, except the exact circumstances that led to my father doing it, which were him growing up in a house where he was physically and sexually abused, where he had no tools for he grew up in the in the 70s and had no tools for process and the people didn't go to therapy. And then he got married young, because that's what he was supposed to do. And he was a child, he was 19 when he got married and all of these. So it's like if I look at the backstory of that character, and paint that and flesh that out, and he's no longer just this monster, this presence in my young life that was terrifying when he was angry, if he was just a person if he was just a man and he's got a backstory and that backstory is filled with if not excuses, then at least legitimate reasons and, and places of understanding where I could see how he got there. Then helps me forgive him and it helps me move on and then when I apply that same process to myself, it helps me forgive myself and helps me move on. And so that your journal, your writing, your storytelling, whatever it is, it provides you the opportunity to go back and have all of this information which you can then write into a new story and present in a different way and move through some of the stuff and that is for many people and I include myself here, always valuable and has been life changing in many ways. 

Chase: Moving through it all, in the life changing value is the perfect segue into my final question, man. So ever forward, that is what I have, through looking back into all the hardships of my life, particularly one, that's the death of my father, he had this mantra, this phrase of no matter what move forward ever forward, ever forward, ever forward And I ran to your point earlier, I ran away from that for about a decade, 10 10-12 years. And it was only until I like really went back through journaling, through trying to understand my story through all of the pain that I thought that I could just mask over and give honor and praise and, you know, I recognized the value that it actually had in my life and for my life. That's the whole reason for what I'm doing here today. And that's the kind of the philosophy behind moving forward living a life before I say, so for you what does that mean to you? When I say how does John Romaniello live a life ever forward; what does that mean to you?

John: My default has always been to take all of the responsibility for everything that has happened to me, even the things that are not my fault. And this is this is obviously a trauma response. But because of that, it fostered resentment, and anger and I spent a lot of my life most of my life, I would say, if we if we divide my life into halves, and at least the first 20, let's close to 30 years, I lived most of my life looking backwards, thinking of all the ways that my life would be different if this one event hadn't happened. Or if I had a different family, or if I hadn't made this mistake or that mistake and I could not enjoy the life I was living and the things that I was doing. Because I was in some way, hoping that they would rectify the places where I felt that I'd failed myself or other people. And now, having moved past that, and through that I am, I'm very focused on being present. And really figure. Sorry that's the dog. And really figuring out how, how to look forward and understand that wherever I am now, wherever I am, in space and time in this moment, is a direct result of all of the decisions and all the experiences that I've had up to that point. And some of them are hard. Many of them are hard. I've had a lot of a lot of trauma in my life. My young life was very challenging. I do not believe that everything happens for a reason. I think that's an insane thing, an insane position to take. I think that everything happens for a reason in that causality exists and it happened because something previous, but it didn't happen so that something else could happen in the future. Things happen and we find meaning in it. And we give it reasons. And my reasons you want to look back at these things are, you know, it's just how can I be better? How can I be better than the how do I redeem my bloodline? How do I be a better father than the one I had? How do I be a better friend than the one I've been in the past? And I have come to this place of equanimity. That perspective of the past leads to improvement in the future. And ignoring the past and letting it go that might work for other people I can't do that. So when I when I really do look at the previous places I've failed, no longer as touchstones to an alternate timeline where things would have been better had I not done that. But now they are reference points for places I can be better. And that creates the impetus to do so. And so ever forward for me it means looking at definitive and distinctive ways where I can foster and foment improvement in my life. And for me, my mantra is really every decision that I make is an opportunity to show my quality and the goal for me is I want to develop into the type of person that I know that I can say with confidence will allow me to be my best self on my worst day.

Chase: That's I think a goal a lot of us would like to have as well. That's very well said, man. Thank you. John it has been a pleasure having you on the show again. Anybody wants to connect with you more of course I'm gonna have your information down the show notes, the video of everybody but they want to go one place right now to connect with you. Where's that?

John:  Instagram just Instagram John Romaniello that's where I do all my stuff. That's where I am.

Chase: Thanks again.