"Odd-chain saturated fatty acids like C15 are revolutionizing our understanding of essential nutrients and cellular health. C15 might be a superior alternative to omega-3s in activating longevity pathways and promoting healthier aging."

Dr. Eric Venn-Watson, MD

Join us as we explore the groundbreaking benefits of saturated fats, specifically focusing on odd-chain saturated fatty acids like C15. Our guest, military physician and co-founder of Seraphina Therapeutics, Eric Venn-Watson, sheds light on how C15 is essential for cellular health, longevity, and chronic disease prevention. Eric shares his expertise on why decades of avoiding saturated fats might have been misguided and how C15, the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years, can strengthen cell membranes and improve health metrics such as energy, mood, and even sex drive.

In this episode, you'll hear about the fascinating discovery that linked dolphin health studies to human metabolic diseases, revealing the crucial role of C15 in healthy aging. Eric explains how changes in agricultural practices and dietary preferences have led to widespread C15 deficiencies in human diets, potentially contributing to various health issues. We also explore the relationship between the endocannabinoid system and C15, highlighting its potential as a superior alternative to omega-3s in activating longevity pathways and promoting healthier aging.

Listen in as we discuss the immediate and long-term benefits of C15 supplementation, from improved sleep and reduced snacking to thicker hair and shinier skin. Eric introduces the new Cell Strength Test, which measures C15 levels and evaluates cell strength, offering insights into aging and cellular health. We also cover the science behind influencing aging, comparing C15 to rapamycin, and the broader implications of these findings for disease prevention and healthy aging. Finally, we touch on the complexities of biohacking and the importance of monitoring essential nutrients for overall well-being.

Follow Fatty15 @fatty15

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


In this episode we discuss...

(08:51) What Makes Certain Nutrients Essential

(15:46) Understanding the Role of C15

(20:10) Using Dolphins As a Model for Healthy Aging

(28:16) Fatty Liver Deficiency Syndrome Study

(33:59) Creating High-Quality Pure Food Ingredients

(37:28) Benefits of C15 Fatty Acid Monitoring

(44:04) Saturated Fats and Overall Health and Aging

(50:02) Longevity and Healthspan Trends

(53:45) Discovering Aging Biomarkers

(01:02:34) Omega-3s & C15 for Brain Health


Episode resources:

EFR 808: Why Saturated Fats Are Actually Good For You and the Discovery of C15 with Dr. Eric Venn-Watson

Join us as we explore the groundbreaking benefits of saturated fats, specifically focusing on odd-chain saturated fatty acids like C15. Our guest, military physician and co-founder of Seraphina Therapeutics, Eric Venn-Watson, sheds light on how C15 is essential for cellular health, longevity, and chronic disease prevention. Eric shares his expertise on why decades of avoiding saturated fats might have been misguided and how C15, the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years, can strengthen cell membranes and improve health metrics such as energy, mood, and even sex drive.

In this episode, you'll hear about the fascinating discovery that linked dolphin health studies to human metabolic diseases, revealing the crucial role of C15 in healthy aging. Eric explains how changes in agricultural practices and dietary preferences have led to widespread C15 deficiencies in human diets, potentially contributing to various health issues. We also explore the relationship between the endocannabinoid system and C15, highlighting its potential as a superior alternative to omega-3s in activating longevity pathways and promoting healthier aging.

Listen in as we discuss the immediate and long-term benefits of C15 supplementation, from improved sleep and reduced snacking to thicker hair and shinier skin. Eric introduces the new Cell Strength Test, which measures C15 levels and evaluates cell strength, offering insights into aging and cellular health. We also cover the science behind influencing aging, comparing C15 to rapamycin, and the broader implications of these findings for disease prevention and healthy aging. Finally, we touch on the complexities of biohacking and the importance of monitoring essential nutrients for overall well-being.

Follow Fatty15 @fatty15

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


In this episode we discuss...

(08:51) What Makes Certain Nutrients Essential

(15:46) Understanding the Role of C15

(20:10) Using Dolphins As a Model for Healthy Aging

(28:16) Fatty Liver Deficiency Syndrome Study

(33:59) Creating High-Quality Pure Food Ingredients

(37:28) Benefits of C15 Fatty Acid Monitoring

(44:04) Saturated Fats and Overall Health and Aging

(50:02) Longevity and Healthspan Trends

(53:45) Discovering Aging Biomarkers

(01:02:34) Omega-3s & C15 for Brain Health


Episode resources:


00:00 - Speaker 1 The following is an Operation Podcast Production

Society spent a generation avoiding fat and you're here to tell us that saturated fat is a good thing. We discovered.

00:09 - Speaker 2 This group of molecules called odd-chain saturated fatty acids have a lot of benefits and, in fact, if you look at the Goldilocks one, the one that is responsible for all of these benefits, the one we can't make but we need from our diet it's C15. In fact, it is the third ever to be discovered and the first essential fatty acid to be discovered in over 90 years. And so if you look at the cell membranes of short-lived animals, they have higher PUFAs, higher omega-3s, less odd-chain saturated fatty acids. If you look at longer-lived animals, they have less PUFAs as ratio and more odd chain saturated fatty acids, stronger cells. We need to replace c15. We need to put it back in our diet. My name is eric vinwatson. I'm a military physician, I'm co-founder of a company called seraphina therapeutics and our product fatty 15. It is wonderful to be here today on Ever Forward Radio. I'm really excited to dig in more to the science around C15, help people understand and help people grow and improve their health, energy, mood, even sex drive.

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03:08 What's up everybody? Welcome back to Ever Forward Radio. I am certified health coach and Army veteran Chase Tuning, and I am so stoked to have you tuning in with me here today on the podcast. I got one question for you out of the gate, and that's what if everything you thought you knew about saturated fats was wrong?

03:27 This is where today's guest, eric Van Watson, is going to set the record straight Eric and his company and the research over at Serafina Therapeutics are challenging decades of nutritional guidelines and is here to unveil the really truly astonishing health benefits of saturated fat, but not just any saturated fat. I chain saturated fatty acids like the Goldilocks molecule he describes C15. And a pretty wild story the one that involves dolphins, yeah. Through eye-opening research, including Navy dolphins, eric reveals how these fatty acids are not just beneficial but essential for our health. In fact, they're the new kid on the block. They are the newest essential fatty acid that you didn't even know you needed, didn't even know existed. I didn't even know existed until maybe about six months ago in discovering Serafina Therapeutics and their product, fatty 15. And this research is really offering profound insights into longevity, self-strength and chronic disease prevention. Like I said, c15 is the first of its kind. It is the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years. He's going to be diving into the cellular benefits of C15, its potential in activating longevity pathways and ongoing studies into C15 deficiency syndromes, giving us really this compelling picture of how this nutrient could revolutionize our understanding of health and aging.

04:54 And I'm so stoked to continue to partner with Fatty15. And they are presenting this episode, they're sponsoring this episode and I want to turn your attention to their product, fatty15, and their starter kit 90 Day Supply. This is something that I've been running through. Now I'm in my second 90 day iteration and I am loving the results decrease in all cause, mortality, reduction in inflammation so many amazing benefits. But also when it comes to supplementing with omega-3s and other essential fatty acids. A lot of times again, if we're supplementing, we're not getting it in our diet. It's a lot these pills, these capsules we have to take a lot of them. Sometimes we get, you know, disgusting fish burps and that's why I've been loving supplementing with fatty 15.

05:34 The C15, this is an essential fatty acid that your body needs to stay healthy, especially as you age, and fatty 15 is a science-backed, patented, award-winning, pure and vegan-friendly C15 supplement to support your long-term health and wellness. They've got a great deal. You can actually head to fatty15.com. You're going to get an additional 15% off of their already amazing deal running their 90-day supply or any product, any deal that you want to throw into your cart. Just make sure to use checkout code EVERFORWARD to get that additional 15% off.

06:11 Welcome to the show everybody. If this episode brings you value and mean the world to me, if you subscribe or follow on any platform Apple, spotify, check out the YouTube channel I have this linked for you down in the show notes Eric was with me in studio and if you think there's one person in your life that might find value in learning how to age better, age more resilient and just learning this new science about fatty acids and saturated fat versus unsaturated fat a lot of debates out there, but this one really caught my attention because it has the evidence and the science to back it up. So sharing it out with one person, one friend, would mean the world. To that I say thank you and welcome to Ever Forward Radio, eric. Welcome to the show. Thank you, chase, it's wonderful to be here.

06:52 I feel like we get in these rotations of science and nutrition. You know, every decade or so, one thing we were led to believe is good for us, one thing is bad for us, and then it's actually hold up. But this concept of saturated fats actually being good for us really caught my attention. You all have this tagline of quote society spent a generation avoiding fat, and so I understand you're here to tell us that saturated fat is a good thing.

07:17 - Speaker 2 Are there some saturated fats that are good and bad, is the summary. But you know how did we find? How did society get to the place where it is now, where we thought all saturated fats are bad? Right, if you go back a generation. Right, the government came out with guidelines of avoiding saturated fats and the reason they did that was because men were dying of heart attacks and they thought at the time it's probably due to higher levels of saturated fat. There's much more to that story, but we found, based on studying healthy dolphins, that a saturated fat is not a saturated fat, meaning you can't take one whole group of nutrients away. In fact, there are good saturated fats and there are bad saturated fats. So one more level those good saturated fats are odd chain saturated fats, whereas the bad ones, the ones that are pro-inflammatory, are the even chain saturated fatty acids.

08:15 - Speaker 1 Okay. So, as if it wasn't enough, I'm just imagining people listening going. I've got to drink my water. I've got to go to sleep. I've got to take my supplements. Watch my nutrition. I got to get monounsaturated. Is it polyunsaturated, saturated? All this kind of dissection of the different types of fats when I'm just trying to move well, be well, sleep well. This is kind of like another layer of another thing I think that I need to keep track of. So can you kind of dissect why this is important to understand the even and odd saturated fat, but explain it to me like I'm a golden doodle, like my brother would say.

08:50 - Speaker 2 Sounds good. So there are some nutrients that are essential Vitamins vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin C. There are two essential fatty acids One's an omega-3, one's an omega-6, right, these are things that our body needs but can't make. We have to get them from our diet, and that's what essential means, right.

09:08 Exactly, and so we discovered this group of molecules called odd-chain saturated fatty acids have a lot of benefits and in fact, if you look at the Goldilocks one, the one that is responsible for all of these benefits, the one we can't make but we need from our diet it's c15. So it is now classified as an essential fatty acid. In fact, it is the third ever to be discovered and the first essential fatty acid to be discovered in over 90 years damn 90 years, which is pretty mind-blowing when you think about that, that's true.

09:46 - Speaker 1 But yet, at least for me, up until discovering you all, I had never heard of C15. I never had. Even this concept of a saturated fat is good for me, odd even. And if this is an essential fat, then why have we not heard about it until now? And if it's been a discovery in 90 years?

10:06 - Speaker 2 Long story short. It took dolphins. And why dolphins? It took a model to understand diseases of aging, how we age, aging rates that don't drink. They don't drink coffee. They're not eating different foods. Dolphin model is really interesting because they're in the same environment. They only eat fish. They exercise every day. So it's a model that you can study over time.

10:33 - Speaker 1 So it's really a great controlled environment. It's a great controlled environment. It's like a study that Mother Nature kind of just logged up Right.

10:39 - Speaker 2 One dolphin is not driving a fancy car and the other one walking to work. You get rid of all this white noise and you start to work through what are the factors that actually contribute to healthy aging and positive aging rates.

10:57 - Speaker 1 Okay, so you can't just drop dolphins on us and not unpack the story a little bit. You have a really unique background, you and your wife, and how did you all get to the point of discovering this? From studying dolphins right.

11:09 - Speaker 2 So, um, my wife stephanie started the translational medicine program for the navy's dolphins, and the reason for that program is because they had dolphins that were living 50 percent longer than those in the wild, and they they get great health care.

11:24 - Speaker 1 This is the navy population, so they're free to go.

11:28 - Speaker 2 You know they live in the open ocean. They're free to go. They come back every day because that's where their home is, their pod is yeah, so in san diego bay you'll see them swimming around and things like that. Sometimes they jump into boats and you'll be like I know what's going on really calm down right, really a great population and these were living twice as long.

11:46 Right. And so then they had a geriatric population of dolphins. So the Navy that's where this population lives was taking samples, Like we go to the doctor and get labs. Well, they were getting labs on dolphins for the course of their entire lives. So after 60 years of, you know, getting labs, things like that, we were able to go back into those archives and look at labs over time what factors in dolphin's blood predicted healthy aging and less chronic disease. And so that's, that's the dolphin connection. And remember they only eat fish, they're not on chronic medications.

12:23 They exercise every day. So it's interesting because it gives you a cheat sheet to the pathophysiology of chronic diseases diabetes, alzheimer's, fatty liver disease, things like that. So really interesting.

12:36 - Speaker 1 Very. What is it about dolphins that caught your attention? I mean, living twice as long is a very unique thing. Is it because they're mammals and we're also mammals? What is the correlation between mammals and humans that actually makes this pertinent to us?

12:49 - Speaker 2 Right. And so if you look at how discovering micronutrients and pharmaceuticals, things like that, is usually done, it's in mice, worms and flies, and that's tough because the way their physiology is for short-lived animals is very different from long-lived animals like us or blue whales or dolphins, and so you want to look at a model that's long-lived, that is in the same environment, eating the same foods, exercising, getting medical care all that it's hard to do. There's no human population that does that. I had coffee this morning, and so why dolphins? Then it's because they have this population. That is all those things right. It's a big brain, long-lived animal with physiology similar to humans that is in an incredible environment to understand, Like why, if you control for everything, do some dolphins or some people get chronic diseases of aging and some don't?

13:44 And so hence, the million dollar question Right hence, that's how this discovery was made, because we thought to make a long story short. Some dolphins were getting precursors of diseases, metabolic syndrome, things like that.

13:58 - Speaker 1 Dolphins can get metabolic syndrome.

13:59 - Speaker 2 Right, they get the same diseases that humans get, usually not as severe the same diseases? Alzheimer's, early stage of Alzheimer's, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, fatty liver disease. Physiology is very similar to ours.

14:10 - Speaker 1 Is that mammalian-based or is it dolphin-based? Are there other mammals that also get the same diseases as humans?

14:17 - Speaker 2 I assume. So I am not a veterinarian.

14:20 But, yes, the understanding, like how the glucose metabolism, for instance, is very similar from dolphins to humans. The genes associated with that are very similar from dolphins to humans. So, because they're in this clean environment, because they collected data over 60 years, because they have all the, they started electronic medical records before they existed in people and so they have these incredible data stores that you can go back to. And so that's that's the reason for the dolphins and, to make a long story short, it's a cheat sheet to understanding pathophysiology of disease, and then you know what small molecules like influence health. So some of the dolphins were getting metabolic syndrome and some weren't.

15:03 So the group not I, my wife and the team started looking through like trying to answer the question why? And they thought it was omega-3s, because dolphins eat fish and of course they're going to have higher levels of omega-3s. But omega-3s were a negative predictor of their health and aging rate, whereas odd-chain saturated fatty acids, acids, specifically c15, was the highest of the predictors of healthy aging and that's what kicked it off. And then we moved that into a very pharmaceutical type of process and c15 is currently being moved forward for treatment of different diseases uh, naff, old nash, liver anemia, other fibrotic diseases.

15:46 - Speaker 1 That kind of answered a question I had in mind and that was how do you know that C15 was really the determining factor? And it kind of sounds like that was it.

15:55 - Speaker 2 It's interesting because at first we didn't, and so the first discussions that Steph had with like Ira Plato on NPRiday um were about c17, because there was higher levels of c17. But when we started to look into, okay, what is the actual essential micronutrient, it turned out that it wasn't c17, it was c15, and in fact your body takes c15, adds two carbons to it. So when you take take C15, you get C17. And that's what we were measuring in the dolphins was higher levels of C17. So you need C15. It's the essential saturated fat that's good for your health and you need it to maintain normal levels and maintain your health.

16:38 - Speaker 1 So then, is C15 naturally found in the diets of dolphins, and is it in our diets? Where do we get C15? Where do dolphins get?

16:45 - Speaker 2 C15? How is this in the body, in the diets of?

16:45 - Speaker 1 dolphins and is it in our diets? Where do we get C15? Where do dolphins get C15? How is this in the body, in the bloodstream?

16:48 - Speaker 2 The dolphins were getting it from the skin and heads, and so we don't generally eat skin and heads anymore.

16:54 - Speaker 1 Skin and heads of other fish, of other animals. Okay.

16:57 - Speaker 2 So they were getting fish and, interestingly, part of the reason that the dolphins were getting metabolic syndrome, it turned out, were as the oceans have gotten warmer and it's harder to get fish that have more fat in them. It was like a deficiency that they were creating in this dolphin population because the fish had less C15 in it that they were getting fed, and so that was another reason for this discovery. So, moving to humans, how do we get it? Usually we get it in full-fat dairy products, full-fat cow's milk, cheese, that kind of thing. However, our grass has changed, our environment has changed. Cows are getting corn-fed instead of grass-fed, and so if you look at C15 levels in our products milk, cream, that kind of thing there's just less in there.

17:43 - Speaker 1 And not to mention so many people now are using milk alternatives. Soy almond oat. Yesterday, for the first time, I was at a coffee house and they offered pistachio milk. That was new to me I guess you can milk anything with nibbles.

17:57 - Speaker 2 Yeah. And so to your point, if you have, if you drink or eat plant-based milks in this case, drink plant-based milk they're deficient in C15. And so this is getting to population-wide C15 deficiencies, and so we as a society have taken this molecule out of our diets over the past 40 years and now there's a deficiency syndrome. And so, long story short, we and other groups have been looking at that and trying to show is there actually a C15 deficiency syndrome? Is that deficiency syndrome causing disease? And there is a clinical trial that is done and is in review at a major journal that will help answer that question. I can't talk about it too much, but that's the theory, and there's a lot of science showing that there are C15, you know, population wide deficiencies that are causing unhealthy states in one out of every three, potentially, of us, which is a big deal. So we're trying to get C15 back in the world's food supply.

19:03 - Speaker 1 What comes up for me is this constant dilemma I think a lot of people find themselves in, and that's you make a choice to try to improve an area of your health. You go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time, you modify your diet Just little things that compound over not that long a period of time that really do make you feel better can actually move the needle in a biomarker. But I'm kind of hearing that a choice to improve your health might unfortunately make you deficient.

19:36 - Speaker 2 right, and something else that's very essential to your health right, and in my mind you just can't take away a whole group of nutrients. You know there's moderation and there's understanding that some nutrients in that group will be good for you and some will potentially not be good for you. It's just getting a better understanding of that, and so that's why the Olfen model again to go back to that is so incredible, because it gives you the understanding of which of these micronutrients are actually important for healthy, healthy aging, right, and so you know this isn't, it's not a one-off discovery. In fact, when we were looking at healthy aging and dolphins especially, stuff in the group, um, you know there's a lot of other molecules that they found that look like they influence different, like what preventing different disease states, different nutritional, nutritional states, things like that.

20:24 And so, long story short, if you go back to all these archive data and blood tests and you then look at those with multiomics, metabolomics, lipidomics, genomics, like really looking into those samples and then seeing like, for instance, if a dolphin eats something, like they ate something in this part of their diet, what happened to those molecules as it goes through their system, what are the metabolites, that gives you great insight into what molecules actually influence health and why you can't do that and why it hasn't been done to this point. It has been done to this point, but why it hasn't been done on a large scale. It's just those animal models. People models are hard to find, right. There's so much white noise in that yeah and so hence you know, c15.

21:15 When we looked at metabolites, uh sorry, when we looked at the metabolome, c15 was at the top of predictors of healthy aging, but the top of 100 other molecules that look like they have benefits which were also working up as well. So let me, because we're kind of all over the place. So here's what actually happened, right? So the dolphin model provided this insight, right? And then we looked at it in many, many studies. A decade of research was done and then we published that science in nature, nature's scientific reports, with the question is c15 an essential fatty acid? That was 2020. Since that time, many, many groups, lots of publications have come out, you know, supporting that data, and those are all on discover c15.com. And so then we said, okay, it's essential. How does it compare to the other two essential fatty acids?

22:08 right right and so we had a third party compare them and look at different cell systems, like a lot of different data on that. And so, long story short, like c15 is a, it's a better molecule in a lot of ways than omega-3s. It's got more cellular benefits. It's safer for your cells Omega-3s polyunsaturated fatty acids are toxic at higher doses to your cells. So I know we'll probably go into that, but that's what we found out there.

22:37 So now we knew this is an essential fatty acid. It's better than omega-3s, and when we compared it to omega-3s it was like pure pharmaceutical grade EPA, the highest bar. And so then we're like okay, let's take a look at more of the metabolites. As you eat C15, what happens? Because if it's essential, there's got to be something amazing in there. And so we discovered one of the metabolites is called PDC, pentadecanol carnitine, which turns out to be the second ever fully acting endocannabinoid like ever. And so meaning it goes CB1, cb2 receptors across and has a lot to do with why, when you take fatty 15, you feel a lot of like pain reduction, mood. You know balancing, you know feel better, that kind of thing.

23:21 - Speaker 1 Hey guys, quick break. I don't know about you, but podcasting sometimes can be hungry work. Whether you're doing the podcast or listening, by now you might be due for a snack, and when it's snack time for me, I am reaching for today's sponsor, paleo Valley. And they're 100% grass fed and grass finished beef sticks. One, because they're freaking amazing. Every single one of their five flavors are incredible. Personally, I love teriyaki and original the most and I love to know that I'm satisfying that craving while also getting some extra protein into my day.

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25:16 And what's not to love about 80% off and something that you're doing a solid for your body? Again, the details for this deal are linked for you in the show notes today under episode resources. But hurry, this is a limited time deal and only while supplies last. Now is this more pertinent now Because, at least in my kind of personal knowledge the endocannabinoid system we only really have known about this and really been looking into it. What the last 10, 15 years-ish. So it's kind of like this maybe has always been there, but we didn't really even know that the system to look at it, we didn't even know how to really go about that, we didn't know it existed.

25:54 - Speaker 2 Right, it's fairly new. And then the knowledge. But the knowledge has been expanding, right. So the endocannabinoid system, you know, is not made for cannabis right natural receptors and odd chain saturated fatty acids are big, you know, are probably what the cb1, cb2 endocannabinoid system was actually designed to. You know use which makes sense.

26:15 - Speaker 1 When I think about um, I take cbd products and when you look at, especially a tincture, even a gel cap yeah it has to have an emulsifying agent. They always put like a fat oil with it, so it makes perfect sense. It's kind of like this binding agent to go along with it into the endocannabinoid system. Right, right can we get a c15 agent with that yeah, totally, I mean.

26:33 - Speaker 2 So we published that in nature again scientific reports and we thought, oh my god, this would be such a big discovery and it's just complex, it's hard to understand. So when people think about fatty 15, you know they understand. Hey, this is a better alternative than omega-3s, right, but it also activates this endocannabinoid system. But just it's harder to understand. And so we came out with that. We thought it it would be really big, but then you know it wasn't really covered in the news and things like that.

27:01 - Speaker 1 As much as kind of I thought Well, there are other things going on in the news back in 2020. You might have taken a back burner. Might have taken a back burner. Still very important yeah.

27:17 - Speaker 2 And so we saw that it's an essential fatty acid better than omega-3s. And now we have this incredible like metabolite um that has potential implications for a lot of different diseases that we're looking at on the pharmaceutical side as well. And then we said, okay, this molecule is activating longevity pathways and it's it's helping dolphins live healthier, longer. How does it compare to the leading, you know healthy aging molecules rapamycin, metformin, like, like A-carbose? And so we had the same group do testing. So they look at a plethora of cell systems for different diseases. They look at longevity pathways, that kind of thing, and they see, like, how does it compare? And so C15 and rapamycin are actually really similar with regards to activating longevity pathways and improving health in these different cell systems. However, rapamycin is from easter island bacteria, right, and so c15 has been in the world's food supply since the beginning of time and so most likely these longevity pathways are not necessarily for rapamycin, they're probably more for odd chain saturated fatty acids like C15.

28:16 And so that was the next study Published, that it was interesting because we got a lot of interest in the longevity community and those studies are still going on. And so where we are today just to bring big groups. We're now looking at the deficiency syndrome in more detail, and so hence the reason for this triple-ed. You know clinical trial that we did with, you know Jeff Schwimmer, who's the leader in fatty liver disease, and you know pediatric, you know NAFLD, and so the question was, has been are there C15 deficiencies? And it looks like the answer is yes, and are those deficiencies causing different conditions, poorer health? And that's what we're working on now.

28:59 - Speaker 1 I really want to get into some of the deficiencies. When we're talking about C15 and what it might look like, feel like in both a qualitative and a quantitative manner, by how we feel, our performance, energy, but also looking at key biomarkers. But first I've heard you say a couple times better than omega-3s, key biomarkers. But first I've heard you say a couple of times better than omega-3s and anybody who has been focusing on their nutrition, looking at diet or maybe even choosing to go the supplement route. We've heard for many years the importance of omega-3s in the diet. More specifically, the ratio of omega-3s to omega-6s pro-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory, making sure we're getting our krill oil, fish oil eating fresh wild-caught fish. Does this mean are omega-3s out and C15 is in? Are they better than omega-3s or are omega-3s not as good as we thought?

29:48 - Speaker 2 So everyone needs omega-3s, and so most of the omega-3s that we need we get from our diet, right, and we get from fish and other and some plants and things like that. You still need those in your diet. So the question is, do we need fish oils as a supplement? And so if you look at the spectrum of supplements fish oil supplements there's oil supplements that you get from Bond, CVS, things like that, and then there's all the way to pharmaceuticals. One of the problems with the fish oil supplements is you get from Bond, CVS, things like that, and then there's all the way to pharmaceuticals. One of the problems with the fish oil supplements is they're oils and so they oxidize, and when they oxidize they go rancid, and so there's more and more literature coming out suggesting that those oxidized byproducts are probably not great for us. So meaning you know our customers ask the same thing all the time Fatty 15, do I need to stop? Can I stop taking my omega-3s?

30:39 yeah, I thought the same thing the answer that we say if your physician is prescribing you like vasepa, like a pure epa to treat lipid, you know like a triglyceride, you know part of your lipid panel, then yes, keep taking that. And those are in oxidized resistant packaging, they're pure. I mean, that is a very different world than omega-3 fish oil. So when customers say, can I take it instead of fish oil, we say yes, because there's all these problems with like oils in general and fish oils. So meaning you know if you are going to use fish oils, you want to make sure it's a very high quality. And if you're smelling the bottle, if you're smelling any fishy.

31:19 - Speaker 1 If it smells fishy, that's bad.

31:20 - Speaker 2 Probably bad, yeah, probably bad. And so if you're getting a lot in your diet, you're probably good. However, if you're vegan and you're not getting the diet, so for those people you might need an omega-3 fish oil supplement or krill oil supplement. Just make sure it's very high quality and you know that's not oxidized and things like that there's. There's a few articles that come out recently, a lot of them looking at what's on the shelf as far as omega-3 supplements, right, and so in one study I think this was the guardian they looked at of the 10 products, for every 10 products that they looked at and tested on the shelves, one was already rancid, no, and then 50% of them had levels higher than oxidation levels.

32:04 - Speaker 1 Rancid meaning what actually? Not only is it just lower in purity and potency, it's actually going to do harm. Well, I Potentially Potentially Okay.

32:11 - Speaker 2 Yeah, meaning it's no longer what it was when they took the fish and squeezed the fish and got the oil out of it, and now it does have more byproducts that could you know. The theory is that they're probably not great for you. So, in summary, if your doctor is providing you with a prescription, continue taking that. If you are getting enough omega-3s from your diet, probably don't need a supplement. Probably fatty 15 is a better supplement in that case. More clinically relevant benefits. Doesn't have the risk of oxidation or going rancid. Safer for your cells.

32:46 - Speaker 1 How did you guys get it to be not an oil? We're talking about omega-3 oils Omega-3s we all go to oil. How did C15 not become an oil?

32:58 - Speaker 2 We looked at a variety of ways to make C15 because we wanted there's so much science here. We wanted to come out with a product that was at that level of science, and so you'll see in our you know and everything we do in our packaging, our bottle, everything is everything is good for you and good for the earth the highest level. And so when we looked at different ways to make it, we could have have gotten an oil, we could have done fermentation, algae, things like that, but to create a basically 100% pure powder, the only way to do that was to use plant-based sources.

33:26 So, we basically use plants as a starting material. We add a carbon to it and that gets you 100% pure, free fatty acid C15.

33:36 - Speaker 1 And where does the C15 come from?

33:38 - Speaker 2 Yeah, and so you start with plants. So generally nutmegs, some coconut, things like that, but that's C14. And so when we make it into C15, there's no allergens, there's no coconut, there's no nuts. You don't have to worry about allergies to those things.

33:54 - Speaker 1 So C15 isn't found naturally in nature or in the wild, it is, it's C-14 and we have to make it.

33:59 - Speaker 2 Well, that's how we're doing it. But, yes, c-15 is found in skin and heads of fish in high-fat dairy products. But to make that pure in those products would take a very long time and would be very difficult, so this is a way we could create a, you know 100, pure um. You know powder, non-oxidizing, uh. You know bioavailable it's a free fatty acid um product. That you know is the highest bar.

34:29 There's really no higher bar you could do to make a product like this and that's why we can use it for looking at. You know the disease related treatment of this molecule, c15, a food ingredient, and as a supplement it's the same ingredient in there interesting yeah and so it's good.

34:48 I mean, you know we we've won a lot of awards for the, the ingredient and the purity. When we came out with this, we won Nutri-Ingredients. You know, I think it was Nutritional Outlets Ingredient Producer of the Year. We're runner up for the other big one, and so people have recognized this is like the top the top as far as creating an ingredient that is pure, sustainable, beneficial and has a really long shelf life.

35:15 - Speaker 1 Talk to me about why we should really care about this. In what ways am I going to feel C15 deficiency? Why should I consider looking for more of it in my diet, or even consider supplementation? Also, what should I be looking at in my biomarkers as a key indicator that I might be C15 deficient?

35:35 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, so when we started studying this on the you know, really on the pharma side with the dolphins, we knew there would be long-term benefits, like if you get your CBC you know your chemistry panel you'll see if you're anemic, your anemia improves. In fact, that's one of the ways we've discovered this is when the dolphins, who were on the lowest end of like their hemoglobin.

35:57 Can you uh define anemia for yeah and so the amount like if you look at your red blood cells, you need enough ability in those red blood cells to carry oxygen appropriately. So when you're anemic you have less oxygen carrying capacity, you get fatigued, that kind of thing, and there's all different types of anemia and things like that. But that's the summary. So we knew that the, you know, based on all these studies, we knew cbc anemia would improve. We knew your liver function would improve. We looked at like cholesterol levels that improved, insulin resistance that improved.

36:34 And then you know all these indices, um, you know we knew would be long-term benefits as people started taking these. But what we didn't know and what the dolphins or cell systems couldn't tell us is we have these near-term benefits as well, and part of it may be because of the endocannabinoid system. But when people take fatty 15 in, we survey people at two weeks and then six weeks. So at two weeks two thirds of people were having a near term benefit. They were feeling better, they were sleeping better, they were snacking less between meals and a lot of people's hair were thicker, skin was shinier, things like that. And that was that was amazing to understand.

37:14 - Speaker 1 I don't think anybody would turn down those effects.

37:16 - Speaker 2 I know right. And so if you look at the reviews on the site that people are adding, I mean now there's like 3,000 reviews of people saying, hey, I'm feeling this, my hair is thicker, I feel better, and things like that. And that was a very pleasant surprise because we didn't know that was the case, but it does suggest that one people may be deficient in c15 and that you know, fixing that deficiency improves their short-term health as well as long.

37:45 And then it shows that you know, maybe there's because this is a pure c15 free fatty acid, maybe there's additional benefits of having it in that form. Oh oh, there has to be.

37:56 - Speaker 1 Right.

37:56 - Speaker 2 Because free fatty acid, for instance, is very bioavailable and goes. You know, we know that that's easy for people to digest and to have its benefits. You know, seen quickly and so anyway. So, and then at four months, we noticed that 75% of people were having these near-term benefits, which was really interesting, and so didn't know about. We knew about the long-term benefits. We didn't know people would have these near-term benefits, which is great. And so you asked the second question monitoring.

38:25 So once you join the fatty 15 ecosystem, we send you a message that says, okay, time to go to your doctor and get these labs CBC, chemistry, lipid panel, lft, lfts, what we discussed and then, 90 days later, why don't you go back and just see if there's a difference? Um, and so that has been pretty successful, with people going to their doctor and their doctors are like what, what's going on, what are you doing, and so you can monitor it with normal five-year physicals like that. One of the things we're working on um and we will be announcing shortly maybe this is the first time is we've developed a C15 test.

39:00 - Speaker 1 What does that look like?

39:01 - Speaker 2 So it's basically a spot test. We worked with a partner who does lab testing and they will send you a kit and you basically get to blood spot. You get your C15 levels.

39:12 - Speaker 1 So it's just a biomarker test for C15?.

39:14 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you can measure C15 levels. So the way physicians were monitoring C15 levels, so it's just a biomarker test for C15. Yeah, you can measure C15 levels. So the way physicians were monitoring C15 levels and some of them, like Dr Hyman, were, you know, doing this for a while and so they would get a, you know, total, like fatty acid panel, like all the fatty acids, which is great, but it gives you percent of. So what percent C15 is, what percent of total? So it's not ideal.

39:36 So we developed this test called the cell strength test that looks at c15 levels and a few other things to measure, like how strong are your cells and why that's important and to backtrack is we know that long there's. There's a theory called the pacemaker theory of aging, right and so longer-lived animals have sturdier cells, and so if you look at mice, worms and flies, their cells turn over quickly and they're not as strong. If you look at blue whales, people, dolphins, they have stronger cells and that is nature's way to make animals live longer, just the way it is from the beginning of time, right and so if you look at the cell membranes of short-lived animals, they have higher PUFAs, higher omega-3s, less odd-chain saturated fatty acids. If you look at longer-lived animals, they have less PUFAs as a ratio and more odd-chain saturated fatty acids, stronger cells, and so hence that's why our test is called the Cell strength test and looks at how strong your cells are. And so the last thing I'll say is you know why we were seeing.

40:43 It may be why we're seeing the results of anemia in the CBC? Right, because red blood cells turn over very quickly, and so if it's a coal mine, a canary in a coal mine situation, right, if they're turning over quickly, you'll get anemia. If you strengthen those cells, you know you won't the red blood cells last longer, and so hence you know CBC is a good way to monitor this as well as like a C15 test to look specifically what levels you have. And so, as the nutritional deficiency story comes to light as well, a C15 level will let you know are you above the threshold of what may be deficiency syndrome or not. And so all that data is coming out now. Clinical trial will be coming out soon. The test will be available soon, but that's where this is headed.

41:35 - Speaker 1 That's fascinating. That's really incredible. I'm so excited to follow along in those studies and personally as well, like I said, now taking it myself for a while, and this year I've shared with my audience. This year is the first year where I'm going to get labs every quarter. This year for me is very it's going into optimal.

41:52 I've been in great ranges for a lot of things and I have a lot of healthy habits, things I've been doing for years, but right now I'm really trying to just go all right. Let me just see if I can dial in even a little bit more. And I was sharing with you ever since starting fatty 15 and another key uh acromantia, probiotic uh supplement. I've been getting my metabolic health finally in ranges that I love. I've gotten gotten below a 5.1 A1C for the first time ever. But another trendy word right now I think a lot of people are latching onto is mitochondria, and I'm one of them. I'm very interested in my mitochondrial health. I'm very interested in how we can stimulate the growth of more mitochondria and make the ones that we do have more efficient and just operate better. I want to ask you why is mitochondrial health important and what role does C15 play in our mitochondrial?

42:42 - Speaker 2 health. The powerhouses of ourselves, right? Yeah, if anybody remembers from middle school science class.

42:47 - Speaker 1 What does that actually mean and why is mitochondrial health actually important and the correlation between that and C15?

42:54 - Speaker 2 Our cells, our bodies need energy, and the way to do that's mitochondria produce atp. I mean, that doesn't get simpler than that. So when our mitochondria are broken, they produce less energy, less atp, less cellular energy what breaks?

43:09 them. So there's a variety of things, and I'm not a mitochondrial expert, but if you look at the pathways, how mitochondria makes energy, there's all these different like steps, phases, right, and if some of those phases are broken then your mitochondria are not as efficient, right. And so when we studied C15, looking at mitochondria it was actually a rescue function. So meaning there's these complexes that science has named for the pathways that make your mitochondria produce ATP. If one of those complexes goes down, that's a problem. C15 will bypass the first complex and put you back in the normal system. So that's what we found with C15 is it repaired and then bypassed the broken part of mitochondria?

43:59 - Speaker 1 and so why do you think? That is why. Why is that happening? How's that happening?

44:03 - Speaker 2 yeah, I don't. There's something about odd chain like saturated fatty acids, and our body has used them and needed them since the beginning of time. It's our physiology right, and so part of that is mitochondria. It's all cells. Like our bodies, our cells need odd chain saturated fatty acids, including mitochondria, and so it's an area of further study. Like, I'm not a mitochondria expert, but it does seem like what we know now is if you, if you take mitochondria that are broken and you give them c15, put them in the milieu of c15, the atp production will ramp up and your mitochondria will be more efficient. And so that's incredible. Yeah, they actually not. We didn't do this. There was a group that looked at uh adding c15 to hair follicles. What did that do? And it ramped up atp production by 350 percent.

45:02 - Speaker 1 So I mean one study and uh not done by us, but I'm just picturing a bunch of guys taking c15 just pouring all over their hair follicles. Now I don't think there's not a topical agent to support that yet but yeah, maybe one time down the road.

45:19 - Speaker 2 So I mean, mitochondria is important, muscle is important In our grand scheme of health. C15 is an important part of that and we're finding out that if there's a deficiency syndrome associated with this, this will be like the first deficiency syndrome found, since, like vitamin C pirates and scurvy, I mean this is going to be big.

45:38 But it's still that you're right, but it's still one part of your whole health. Like you need exercise, you need to eat right. This is not a cheat sheet, or you know. Just doing one thing and improving your health, it's gotta be associated with you know good practices as well.

45:55 - Speaker 1 I heard this amazing catchy term zombie cells. What are they, why do we have them and how do we get rid of them?

46:03 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so zombie cells. So if you look at, there's these like hallmarks of aging, right? So there's ways in which processes that have been studied over time that look like are responsible for how we age. And so there's now 12 started out, as I think it was like three at first and all these hallmarks are things that science suggests that you can influence. To influence aging suggests is that you can influence to influence aging, right?

46:41 It's things like I don't let me don't make me name them all, cause I would don't remember. It's like DNA, you know. It's like epigenetics, like what happens to your DNA after time. It's like cell communication, mitochondrial dysfunction, things like that, and so one of those, I'm sure metabolic health is in there.

46:57 Yeah, yeah, metabolic health would be a bigger term and be encompassed in some of these hallmarks, and so why I'm starting at this level is, if you look at C15 and you look at longevity, we noticed that when we studied it against rapamycin, we noticed it was very similar, and rapamycin, we noticed it was very similar, and rapamycin is the leading longevity agent right now. And so we started looking into okay, what are the specific pathways, what are the longevity pathways to C15 influence, and it influences almost all of them. So, which is great, right.

47:32 - Speaker 1 Very great, yeah, because if you want to.

47:34 - Speaker 2 The dolphins lived healthier longer. It may have been from something else outside of C15, but maybe C15 was an indicator. So then we were studying this in cell systems and through the hallmarks of aging, and it's just another, you know, check in the box. Yes, it influences positively longevity pathways. It increases ATP, as we discussed. It inhibits mTOR. You know, these are the normal, like longevity pathways, not normal. These are the things that right now, we suggest will help us age healthier, and so all these pathways are important, including zombie cells and, you know, making cells turn over appropriately and not just become zombies and live forever.

48:17 - Speaker 1 What exactly is? Sorry if I miss this, but exactly what is a zombie cell and what is happening when the cell kind of turns?

48:24 - Speaker 2 Yeah, Okay, and so a couple of things. One like surgeon background is not longevity.

48:30 - Speaker 1 Right, of course, yeah.

48:31 - Speaker 2 And so, and so zombie cells are cells that should have been cleared by our body but instead are just living and causing inflammation and things like that, and so we need those cells to be cleared out or just prevent them from being zombie cells, and so that's kind of the limit of my knowledge there. But one of the nice thing is C15 influences zombie cells as well.

48:57 - Speaker 1 Influences our body, like clearing them out. Exactly, okay, yep.

49:00 - Speaker 2 Yep. And so again, you know there's. There's all these nuances to longevity pathways, but in general, all the science around longevity pathways, all the science around zombie cells, things like that, are important parts, but yet there's. Yet there's something larger right. We need those pathways, those cells, to result in preventing disease, being healthier for longer and longevity. So, as we look broader, if a molecule like C15, like rapamycin, can help prevent diseases of aging, then they have a good chance of helping us live longer. So you see it at the biochemical level, with the hallmarks of aging and things like that, you see it at the disease-related level, and those things together are probably what's going to make some big discoveries pretty soon in longevity and healthy aging.

49:56 - Speaker 1 Big discoveries in longevity. I feel like we have quite a few of those happening now. Longevity, healthspan, lifespan have been, at least in the health and wellness world have been really popular and I had a guest on a couple months ago, dr Charles Brenner, and talking about you're familiar.

50:17 - Speaker 2 Yeah, a little yeah.

50:19 - Speaker 1 Yeah, great guy, and excuse me, yeah, I lost my train of thought. But talking about longevity in terms of, do we have the science right or is this just something that we think works now, just because we have a little bit of science around it and the example that came up was resveratrol and, looking at this, just this highly concentrated polyphenol that we're getting from grapes and certain other foods about like 10, 15 years ago ish, it was all the rage and it was. This is going to dramatically decrease, you know, or decrease aging, increase longevity, increase health span, life span. It was like a godsend to the anti-aging community and now it's kind of actually doesn't really do any of that stuff. It's not a bad thing to have in the diet, but it's not this godsend we all thought it was. How do we know that something like this isn't going to happen with C15? Especially when it comes to longevity, I feel like we get very attached and very excited to these things and then we don't have enough timeline to really kind of prove it.

51:21 - Speaker 2 Right To your point. It's hard because if you did a randomized clinical trial from people when they were born to when they died and did enough, you'd probably find some good results. But you can't do that, and then how would you control for their diet and control for everything? And so that is where to your point. That is where a model like the dolphin comes in really handy, right, because they did that right. They started taking labs from them since they were born and there's now three or four generations. They went to their doctor every month.

51:49 - Speaker 1 And what's a generation in a dolphin? Is it 20 years, 50 years?

51:56 - Speaker 2 Right, in general in the wild they live 20 years. At the navy they're living up to 50 a little older as well, so like a lot longer right. Yeah so, but the navy had the foresight to take labs and store them over time. So you know, when we're sick we go to the doctor and they take labs. That's not what they did with dolphins. They did it at periods of time and part of the reason is because dolphins couldn't tell you that they were feeling well or not?

52:15 but it provided that model to really understand, like aging right, and that's why this is so incredible, in that you have a long-lived mammal eating the same thing in the same environment, three generations, and you can see over time what happened to their metabolome, what happened to their you know all these potential early stage diseases, things like that, and so it is a cheat sheet to understanding longevity.

52:41 And so, to your point, hard to do, hard to study so you need to find these factors that you can study, hence hallmarks of aging and cell systems, things like that, and so the dolphin allows you to bypass that a little bit. But long story short, like I said before, it's still about preventing, improving your health span how long you live healthy and potentially improving your lifespan, your total amount of life lived right and how you do that, prevent chronic diseases, and so any of these molecules need to work at that level. Yes, cell systems are super important. Understanding you know pathways and hallmarks of aging and how they affect those super important. It is also important to prevent chronic disease yeah, and allow you to live healthier for longer.

53:32 But, but still, I think you know there's a lot of data and a lot of new science coming out that tries to answer that question of like how you can study longevity, and so one of the ways. That is an interesting story. One of our co-founders is Nick Shork, who's one of the leaders in the world in aging right. He leads up the NIH's Longevity Consortium, and so when we were talking a long time ago and he said, huh, you have this data over 60 years, you could probably do something that no one else in the world could do. You could probably get aging rates and so, meaning how fast someone is aging, if you take me and two me's, exactly the same one of me would age faster and one would age slower.

54:18 You know, just common things being common, what are the differences if you control for everything? And because the dolphins were so well controlled, they basically stuff. And Nick went back in two weeks they published the study uh, not finished the study that was then published that looked at aging rates, like what things? What biomarkers predicted healthy aging and not healthy aging? What were they? So there's a few, but in the biggest one was red blood cell width distribution.

54:48 So how big your red blood cells were. How well your red blood cells were functioning was an indicator of the healthiest agers and let me guess c15 can contribute to that yeah, and so I mean that's how we found it right, because really, two things some dolphins were getting metabolic syndrome, some weren't somewhere having anemia and not, and this you look to the red blood cell and kind of go, why yeah?

55:12 wow and so interesting, so that was published, and there's other factors too, but it means that there are biomarkers that are easily attainable, just through labs that can help us figure out aging rates and that was in dolphins. But what we're seeing is the pathophysiology is so similar to these diseases. It's probably the same thing in humans as well, and that has been a biomarker that people have used in the past as well.

55:37 - Speaker 1 And speaking of, like I mentioned earlier, this year, I'm getting quarterly labs.

55:42 I'm really looking at optimization, and the way that labs have progressed over the last few years in terms of ease of access and reduction of cost I think is incredible.

55:53 We no longer need there's a time and a place for your doctor, but we no longer need to wait until we're sick or wait for that annual physical to go get labs. If we're curious, if we want to know what's going on right here, right now, because of the things I'm doing, not doing eating, not eating and getting quantitative data I think a lot of people are becoming more hip too and they're able to do it more easily, and so I want to ask you is this something that we should really only consider? After getting labs and going, oh, my C15 levels are not in an optimal range, are low, and then I should really look at ramping up in my diet or consider supplementation. Then I should really look at ramping up in my diet or consider supplementation. Or is this something regardless of what the data shows us? By incorporating more of in our diet through food or through supplementation, it's going to have beneficial effects.

56:45 - Speaker 2 Yeah. So let me answer the second one. Let's talk about labs for a minute. So C15 has near-term and long-term benefits. So the-term, you know, you feel better, all the sleep better, all that kind of stuff. So those are important things. You get just from taking c15 as a free fatty acid right, regardless of levels and things like that. So if you look at monitoring levels over time that the more and more literature is suggesting there is a deficiency syndrome associated with that and you need to maintain a level. That is a certain point. So when you monitor, you measure C15 levels, you're going to see are you deficient or not. So two things you know take C15 as a free fatty acid. In this form you'll feel better. Or at least two thirds of people at two weeks, three fourths of people at at four weeks. Those are incredible numbers.

57:30 Yeah that's really good and it does show that it's interesting. Once people start taking fatty 15, we have a 95% retention a month, which is unheard of right. They stay because they're feeling better.

57:43 - Speaker 1 It's clearly working.

57:43 - Speaker 2 yeah, they're saying, hey, what are you doing? You should continue doing that. So that's incredible. And so, yes, from a monitoring standpoint, it would be good to understand if you're deficient, and then it would be good to understand if you're deficient, um, and then it would be good to you know. Get above that, that level, and hence the reason we took the. We created the test um. Also, with regards to labs like monitoring changes in cbc chemistry, lipid panel, lfts are important because it's just that okay, we got our c15 levels up and did that affect those other systems positively? Did my low hematocrit hemoglobin get better? Did my LFTs go down? So twofold support, but labs in general. So Navy and Marine Corps, aviation, for a long time you have to get labs every year, and so it really is interesting because it provides been in 27 years. So I have 27 years of data that I can monitor, like what happened, what's happened to my cbc over time, what's happened to my cholesterol over time? And that's.

58:46 - Speaker 1 I would love to nerd out over that.

58:47 - Speaker 2 That's incredible and so there's those type of labs that I think is really important. Then there's continuous monitoring, and I don't know yet that we have enough knowledge to really make use of those things, Like in certain disease states. Of course you've got to measure glucose levels.

59:05 - Speaker 1 Right Like a CGM continuous glucose monitor can kind of get that real time feedback to really make a choice.

59:11 - Speaker 2 Exactly. And if you have a disease state diabetes, type one, things like that you have to. But if you're doing it for monitoring your health, like, what do you do with that information? We don't know exactly. Okay, I ate some. I ate breakfast and now my glucose spiked to this level.

59:26 - Speaker 1 I totally agree with that, and I just want to interject and say I'm so glad to hear someone like yourself, a medical professional, say that, because as someone who I do see really great value in CGMs, especially if you're pre-diabetic, diabetic or have you know other glucose intolerance, metabolic health issues, but as someone who is just interested in just getting that snapshot, I've done it. I've done it many, many times over the last couple of years and even with my expertise and background, I too struggled with what do I really do with this? And seeing a spike is not necessarily a bad thing. That's what our bodies are supposed to do now. Yes, of course, spike after spike after spike after spike turns into most likely issues that we really need to focus on. But it's kind of like Do we have access to too much data, too many data points, too many biomarkers, if we don't have a clinical reason for it?

01:00:12 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that we'll get there, but I think at this point the technology may be going faster than the science.

01:00:20 - Speaker 1 to make use of that, those things I was able to bring in some past data points and when I was getting more exhaustive and comprehensive labs, um, specifically like, oh, we were looking at like I think it was CRP or kind of looking at some, some other unique biomarkers that the physician was like I could maybe advise you if I knew more data about your metabolic health at the time, if I knew your glucose A1C and oh, actually wait. So I went back to that day or that week and I go oh, my A1C was this, my glucose was this. So then it did help my physician kind of paint a more specific picture with these other biomarkers. So having it kind of help put all the dots together not necessarily, as you know, islands independently- yeah, it's interesting.

01:00:59 - Speaker 2 I mean, there's so many factors, right? So is it environment, Is it? You know your genes, Is it something like that? I did a N of 1 trial on myself, right I'm sure a lot.

01:01:12 - Speaker 1 I'm sure you do those a lot.

01:01:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe not as many much as others, but uh, and so I was head to be on um Lipitor, a statin, for a while, cause, you know, my family's always had hypertriglycerides, uh, hypercholesterolemia, high cholesterol, high LDL, and so I was on a low dose and I was getting myalgias, which are, you know, the leg pains and things like that. And so I knew I was deploying and so I'm like, okay, I'm going to get off this medication. And you know, when you deploy you, you know you're like you work out a lot, you eat better things like that, or at least you have the option to. And so I went into full like workout mode, along with other things I had to do, and so ate right, exercised a whole bunch, and I was able to normalize everything in seven months. Wow.

01:01:58 So for me, even though I had it in my genes, of high cholesterol, high LDL, hypertension, metabolic syndrome, that kind of thing. You can manipulate it, you can, but I know now that if I want to normalize all my labs, I have to maintain that level of fitness. I don't have time for that right now. I wish, but uh. So it was a good, it was it. This is just an end of one, but for me, even with a genetic predisposition to, you know, high cholesterol and things like that, I was able to normalize it with diet and exercise. It's interesting.

01:02:31 - Speaker 1 Crazy thought. Diet and exercise moves the needle. Yeah, I want to ask another question before I get into my final question as we begin to wrap up. When I think of omega-3s and a lot of the research I've seen over the years, we're really finding that we always kind of knew it helped with brain health and function. It will cross the blood-brain barrier and, of course, when we're looking at the cellular level, it improves every cell at every level and so better cells, better brain health. But can you talk to us specifically now about C15 and brain health? C15 and cognition and cognitive function.

01:03:03 - Speaker 2 Yeah yeah, this is something that we learned pretty recently, right, it really goes back to PDC, that molecule, because people were feeling better, they were getting, you know, mood was better, snacking less between meals, sleeping better, really started looking into it. Why, like, what is it affecting, you know above, you know, through the blood brain barrier. On the other side of that, that was beneficial. So hence, the metabolite of PDC really helped us answer that like, okay, c15 and this metabol metabolite, what happens after you eat? C15 goes across the blood-brain barrier and activates, you know, the endocannabinoid system and that, to our understanding, now seems like the reason that people are having these, mind you know, related because the activation of the endocannabinoid system.

01:03:51 - Speaker 1 Am I hearing you correctly?

01:03:52 - Speaker 2 Right, and so that's part of it. But additionally, there's something called phenotypic screening, so if you take different molecules, you can compare them to other molecules that already exist whether they're supplements most of the time they're pharmaceuticals, things like that and these tests will show you your molecule C15, what is it most like? What class you your molecule c15? What is it most like? What class of medications that exists out there is it most like? If you look at c15, you run it through this screening, it's very similar to bupropion, well buterin, in the sense that it activates similar cell systems and things like that, and so that could be another reason. Odd chain saturated fatty acids potentially make you feel better, at least what we're seeing now with the endocannabinoid and with this similarity to Wellbutrin, which is a safe. Some people use it for antidepressant, for smoking sensation and things like that. So that could answer some of the reason why that's happening as well, but it's something we still need to look into more.

01:04:57 - Speaker 1 What about timing? I've also heard a lot of, I guess, modification around recommendations for taking ingesting omega-3s Not so much in diet, because the closer we get to bedtime the more we eat can have a negative effect on sleep and we don't metabolize as well, we don't get as much nutrient absorption. But if we choose a supplement, when people are taking a fish oil omega threes, I've seen a lot of recommendations come out and say the closer to bedtime 30 minutes to an hour maybe, so that actually is getting into the brain when you're going through all these cycles of sleep is the same true?

01:05:33 - Speaker 2 for.

01:05:33 - Speaker 1 C15. Is it like a timing thing may be more optimal there?

01:05:35 - Speaker 2 I think, um, we have had a lot of customers suggest that most, most customers are taking it in the morning and because it's what's in the capsule is a hundred percent pure C15. You can literally just open the capsule and put it in your coffee or tea or, you know, put it on anything. It's a really good ingredient. So most of the people do that and then they still get benefits of the sleep. We do have some people who take it at night because they feel like it improves their sleep, which is great. One of the good things about having a free fatty acid that's so bioavailable is you don't have to take it with food, so it's not like you have to eat a whole bunch of other food to help digest your supplements.

01:06:15 - Speaker 1 Which is true with most other essential vitamins and minerals that we need. We need it, you know it's. They're mostly fat soluble, so we got to take it with food right.

01:06:19 - Speaker 2 You need to increase that bioavailable by absorption. And so you know, I think with C15, what we're finding at this point is you can control your benefits. If the major benefit you're getting is sleep, try it at night, you know, before you go to sleep, like an hour before. Try it at night, you know, before you go to sleep, like an hour before. If it's other, then you know. Try it in the daytime. If it's more, you know mood regulation, less snacking, you know less eating between meals, that kind of stuff then maybe it's in the morning.

01:06:49 - Speaker 1 I think I'm going to try moving it to night. There are a couple supplements that I take at nighttime, particularly magnesium being one of them, and I want to take it with that and maybe I'll run through a cycle of just c15. I'll ditch the magnesium, I'll take it in the day and really kind of seek a sleep for me has always been my biggest priority I try to focus on in my personal wellness hierarchy. I'm always trying to maintain at least, but also optimize my sleep in terms of how I feel. But you know, I measure using a whoop device here, looking at my sleep cycle. So I now I'm very curious. I'm gonna try, I'm gonna start taking my c15 at night and see if I can get even more dialed in sleep.

01:07:20 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah I mean, that's a nice thing you can. You know, it's so easy to take. It's 100 milligrams it's.

01:07:28 - Speaker 1 I didn't even hit on that, that's another thing so many people you don't get enough in because it's to get the recommended doses, unless you're getting a high dose pure potency prescription. You got to take three, four, five, six fish oil supplements they're usually pretty big or maybe three supplements. This is I mean you guys are looking at the video it's just you take one capsule. It's tiny, yeah, which is also a shout out, because thanks to this dosage I finally got my wife to take this. She hates taking supplements and capsules and it was mostly because it was the quantity, but with this she's like she's a family nurse practitioner, so she loves the science behind it and she's like now I can actually take it because it's just one capsule.

01:08:12 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, it does help and you know, one of the nice things is that this molecule goes through encapsulation machinery, like you know, really easily and so it doesn't need a filler. So if you look at most supplements, they've got other stuff in there, they've got flour, they've got something, so the capsule looks full. This is a small size two capsule and you know, if you shake it, you know if you really shake it down, it's going to be not completely full the capsule. But that's okay, it's 100 pure c15, no filler, no, nothing. And we had a question okay, if we're going to put this out in capsule form, are people ever going to say, hey, it's not totally full, you know? And so we said, well, you know, it's better for them to know this is it in, there it's 100 milligrams.

01:08:54 There's no filler, there's nothing, and there may be a little space on the end, and that's okay, right, cause we don't want to add anything else. We don't want to add, you know, flour or something that just makes it look full. This is, this is what you get a hundred percent pure C15 in there.

01:09:07 - Speaker 1 Well, eric, I just want to say again thank you so much for coming on the show. I love what y' all are doing over at Fatty 15 and kind of bringing just this really unique approach and discovery in the scientific world and the natural world to our world, and I've been loving taking Fatty 15 now going on, I think, month four, maybe going into month five. I got to do my math and just I love how easy it is. I love the fact that my wife is on board with it, so now my family unit is getting healthier and just honestly, I also stay on you guys's email because the newsletters you put out are so informative and so up to date. You're sharing all of the research, all of the new science coming to light, not only just what you all are doing, and so I think you're really only just what you all are doing, and so I think it really you know maybe pun intended here you know bringing the whole tide in on just incredible new data and applications in very very simple ways.

01:10:08 - Speaker 2 Yeah there's. We started this movement of understanding this molecule and its benefits and now the world is catching on, and so there's so much science coming out, which is, for us, really exciting, because our goal fatty 15 is really good, it's helping people, which is great, but ultimately we need to replace C15. We need to put it back in our diet. So ultimately we see this as being in foods and other things, just to provide C15 levels of a similar nature that we used to get before we changed our. You know the, the wakes cows are fed and you know of course, of course, yeah, you know different foods that we get now.

01:10:41 - Speaker 1 There's just one part of a much bigger broken system. But you know this gives me so many ideas. You know kind of hearing that you can, you know, pop it open, put it in drinks or coffee. You know, I, I see this. You know, especially here in LA we have a lot of like mocktail bars and mocktail drink options you know, maybe we get a c15, a fatty 15 mocktail right, you know, like a little topper or something.

01:10:59 Yeah, a little shaker, yeah, yeah which is a whole nother conversation around, like with my wife of I feel like there are a lot of things that people want to do to better their health. Yeah, but just for whatever reason, there's a barrier to entry. And that could be dose, that could be cost, that could be access. That that could be cost, that could be access, that could just be just. I don't like this delivery method, I prefer that one, and it doesn't get there. So finding unique ways for that delivery to happen is, I think, a part of the work besides doing your due diligence and looking at companies and you know your own labs of what actually works and what you need. There's a whole nother aspect of that. Yeah, I agree.

01:11:34 - Speaker 2 Well, we end every all of our team calls with one saying save the dolphins, save the world. I figured needed to put that in there.

01:11:44 - Speaker 1 I feel like there's like a flipper reboot here waiting to happen with C-15.

01:11:48 - Speaker 2 That's funny, I'm sure you've never heard that joke either.

01:11:52 - Speaker 1 My last question is kind of to bring it back to the theme of the show, which actually you'll appreciate, being a military guy ever forward it was a phrase my family grew up with from my dad. He was with 101st Airborne for a while, but before that he was National Guard out of the 116th Infantry Regiment, my hometown back in Roanoke, virginia, and his unit insignia was ever forward.

01:12:13 - Speaker 2 So he picked it up from the military. There we go, yeah.

01:12:16 - Speaker 1 So from the military, to my dad, to my family to here. Now, kind of my interpretation of it is you know, how do we take note of these things in life that not only can help maintain our physical, mental resilience, but how can we use them and apply them in our own life, in our own ways, to learn how to move forward? So every guest I ask at the end ever forward. What does that mean to you, those two words? How would you define it?

01:12:43 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I love it. The reason for that? I think it means just keep learning, keep pushing the envelope. And so I think, from the military side of things, I think the military actually does a great job at promoting that Meaning. You know, you're a young person and you're put in these environments where you need to succeed and there's really no option not to. So, talking about, you know, building people and minds who are ever forward and who are really entrepreneurs. It's a great environment for that Because, for instance, a technology you're using in a wartime situation, or something like that, has to work. If it doesn't, it's just you get rid of it and so it's like that it has to work, or you have to figure out a way to do it. So, ever forward, continue to crush it and just, you know, maintain the constant learning and application of those learnings into improving yourself and your environment around you.

01:13:51 - Speaker 1 Well, I love that interpretation. I always say there's never a right or wrong answer, there's just yours. So I appreciate that, and anytime I have a military guest on, I feel like it just kind of it hits a little bit different as well, kind of knowing that that's really the origin. But truly, my goal with every episode is for the listener to walk away with something that they can, you know, maintain like, yes, this is what I'm doing and it's working, and you know, I've got the science or the anecdotal evidence to kind of show it. But also, how can they extract something out of it? To like let me try this, let me be a new N equals one today, with just one area of my well-being, right, right.

01:14:25 - Speaker 2 Well, it's a hot topic. N of one studies another time.

01:14:30 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that gives me some ideas. For sure, N equals one could be a slippery slope for a lot of people Once we have, like I said earlier, access to a lot of great things. But then it's almost like does everyone need that much information? Is everyone well-versed enough to actually take that and apply it in a healthy way?

01:14:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so many things we can talk about here for the next time. But this gets into the biohacking field and what people are trying to do. I love biohacking in the sense that people are trying to understand their physiology and physiology in a whole to improve health and their health. I love that idea.

01:15:08 - Speaker 1 Application's a whole other story. Well, thank you so much.

01:15:12 - Speaker 2 Thank you.

01:15:14 - Speaker 1 For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to everforwardradio.com