"You can work on the wounds of past relationships while still actively being in a current one, it takes a lot of compassion for yourself because you're going to get triggered and you're going to do things that you wish you didn't do to this person."

Dr. Judy Ho

Unlock the secrets of attachment and transform your relationships with licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, Dr. Judy Ho. Her work serves as a beacon for those navigating difficulties in the world of connection, providing actionable insights to mend and grow in our bonds with others. This matters not just for romantic ties, but also the intricate dynamics of friendships and work relationships, opening our eyes to the substantial influence attachment styles have on our self-perception.

This episode also sheds light on the fine line between supporting a partner's growth and recognizing the need for personal boundaries when self-sabotage emerges. We tackle self-acceptance, the incremental steps necessary for personal growth, and the art of radical acceptance with a partner. Judy's expertise is a powerful resource for anyone seeking to understand the dance between self-awareness and the dynamics of relationships, providing wisdom for nurturing both our individual and collective journeys.

Follow Judy @drjudyho

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


In this episode we discuss...

(04:00) Healing Relationships Through Attachment

(12:21) Navigating Past Wounds in Relationships

(24:31) Self-Reflection and Interpersonal Dynamics

(29:42) Understanding Self-Sabotage in Relationships

(35:48) How to Have Self-Acceptance

(46:31) The Importance and Power of Meaningful Relationships


Episode resources:

EFR 789: How to Heal Your Relationships, Reparent Your Inner Child, and Secure Your Life Vision with Dr. Judy Ho

Unlock the secrets of attachment and transform your relationships with licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, Dr. Judy Ho. Her work serves as a beacon for those navigating difficulties in the world of connection, providing actionable insights to mend and grow in our bonds with others. This matters not just for romantic ties, but also the intricate dynamics of friendships and work relationships, opening our eyes to the substantial influence attachment styles have on our self-perception.

This episode also sheds light on the fine line between supporting a partner's growth and recognizing the need for personal boundaries when self-sabotage emerges. We tackle self-acceptance, the incremental steps necessary for personal growth, and the art of radical acceptance with a partner. Judy's expertise is a powerful resource for anyone seeking to understand the dance between self-awareness and the dynamics of relationships, providing wisdom for nurturing both our individual and collective journeys.

Follow Judy @drjudyho

Follow Chase @chase_chewning


In this episode we discuss...

(04:00) Healing Relationships Through Attachment

(12:21) Navigating Past Wounds in Relationships

(24:31) Self-Reflection and Interpersonal Dynamics

(29:42) Understanding Self-Sabotage in Relationships

(35:48) How to Have Self-Acceptance

(46:31) The Importance and Power of Meaningful Relationships


Episode resources:


00:00 - Speaker 1 The following is an operation podcast production.

00:04 - Speaker 2 What I've discovered is that attachment is really not just about your romantic relationship. It's also about your friendships, your collegial relationships, the way that you attack your life and all your goals in personal and academic and occupational settings, and, just in general, how you feel about yourself. Do you feel generally that you're satisfied with what's going on and that doesn't mean that everything's perfect. No one's gonna have a 10 out of 10 on every major domain of their life but do you generally feel like when you wake up, you're excited, you're looking forward to something in your life?

00:34 - Speaker 1 In intimate relationships it seems kind of more obvious Like, okay, we need to have the hard conversation With friendships and maybe even professional relationships, we kind of let a lot more slide. Would you agree, and why?

00:45 - Speaker 2 Totally agree, and I think it's because a way to reinforce any negative leads to a happy. Happy, like I knew this was gonna happen.

00:50 - Speaker 1 I knew you were gonna leave me. I knew this was gonna be difficult.

00:53 - Speaker 2 Yes.

00:54 - Speaker 1 So it's like negative manifestation. How can we maybe begin to understand that maybe a lot of the issues, the friction, our needs not being met, the wounds not being healed, is on us?

01:04 - Speaker 2 Hey, this is Dr Judy Ho, licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist and author of the new rules of attachment. Welcome to Ever Forward Radio.

01:12 - Speaker 1 Today's episode is brought to you by my partners over at Timeline Nutrition. Let me put you onto their Mydopure product, something I've been taking daily for a few years and I have noticed significant increase in my baseline energy. But I know what's doing more than that, because they're coming to the table with over a decade of human clinical trials looking at performance, muscle strength, recovery and longevity. You've probably heard mitochondria recently. I think it's making this big comeback from middle school right. Mitochondria the powerhouse of the cell. Well, it's still true. 90% of our cellular energy is produced by mitochondria. The trillions of cells that comprise our body tissues run on the energy created by them. Mydopure directly helps the efficacy, the quality and the quantity of our mitochondria. Mydopure induces a signature of improved mitochondria and in some of their studies they've seen a muscle strength increase by up to 12% after 16 weeks. Muscle endurance increases by up to 17% after just eight weeks. And this is one of those things that, yeah, we can find yourolithin A in other foods, but the level to which we would have to consume to get the same benefits as in just one dose of mydopure, is crazy. In fact, mydopure unlocks six times more yourolithin A than just diet alone. I would love for you to try it. If you don't love the way you feel, after just a few weeks they got a money back guarantee. In fact, I would love for you to try it and save some money. At the same time, they're sponsoring today's episode and you can save 10% with code ever forward when you head to timelinenutritioncom slash ever forward.

02:52 Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to have in studio with me here today the one and only Dr Judy Ho. Maybe you've seen her on TV. She has been all over the world, all over the places, delivering expert information when it comes to relationships, healing our inner child, attachment. She is a licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist and she helps people nurture and develop self-love. In this episode, she's gonna help us learn how to heal our relationships and how do we know if our relationship actually needs work or is it too far gone? When is it time to cut the cord? We're gonna be learning the difference between a need and a wound and also, can we truly love someone else if we do not first have unconditional self-love? Just in time for the launch of her new book coming out March 26, the new rules of attachment, you're gonna learn how to heal your relationships, reparent your inner child and secure your life vision. Grounded in the science of attachment. Dr Judy's game-changing approach shows that our attachment style impacts every aspect of our lives, including friendships, career goal setting and, more importantly, our own sense of self. And then she delivers evidence-based practical tools to help heal our inner child as we develop the secure attachment we all need to not just survive but thrive.

04:16 Judy is in studio with me. If you wanna check out the video, which I always recommend, we got a growing YouTube channel. You can search for us at EverFordRadio. Go to EverFordRadiocom, smash that thumbs up button, subscribe to the channel. Never miss another amazing episode. I'm a little biased, but I really do think our podcast video content is so fun, so inviting to watch. Dr Judy's information, the book, the video and everything we talk about in the episodes, as always, are linked for you down in the show notes under episode resources.

04:44 - Speaker 2 Thank you so much, chase. It's awesome to be with you, love your podcast and love what you're doing.

04:48 - Speaker 1 How do you define attachment, as it pertains to both interpersonal and intimate relationship?

04:54 - Speaker 2 It's really your template of understanding who you are and the way you're gonna relate to others and also what kind of outcomes you can expect in your life, and it really ties to your first primary caregiver or caregivers and the quality of that relating to you that helps you to understand all of these things.

05:12 - Speaker 1 And so I understand that a lot of your work centers around quote how to heal your relationship. How do we know if our relationship actually needs work Beyond kind of the obvious cues? I'm not feeling her, I'm not feeling loved, we're struggling with some very obvious things. How do we objectively kind of look at our relationship and go? You know what I need to work on this.

05:31 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so attachment? It's interesting because most of the focus on attachment, especially in pop media, has been this crucial bond that you have as a baby, as an infant, as a child, with usually your parents or some other important adult. That's the template for all your other relationships, but mostly the emphasis has been on romantic relationships. So if you feel like something is lacking in terms of connection, or you're feeling like you're anxious in your relationship, or maybe when you connect you also feel stressed out by it and wanna go away, people are still mostly talking about attachment in terms of a romantic bond, but what I've discovered is that attachment is really not just about your romantic relationship. It's also about your friendships, your collegial relationships, the way that you attack your life and all your goals in personal and academic and occupational settings, and just in general, how you feel about yourself. So back to your question about when you know that needs healing. It's an awesome question.

06:24 I think that mostly it's just when you look at your life. Do you feel generally that you're satisfied with what's going on and that doesn't mean that everything's perfect. No one's gonna have a 10 out of 10 on every major domain of their life but do you generally feel like when you wake up, you're excited, you're looking forward to something in your life. There's something that you're just anticipating, with something that's more of a positive energy rather than anxiety or trepidation, or oh, I just like don't wanna get through another day. That's what I hear a lot from the people that I work with, and I don't want anybody to live like that. You wanna wake up and say, okay, there's some things I don't wanna do, but there's something I'm excited to do.

07:01 - Speaker 1 Yeah, why do you think that in some instances it is easier for us to confront the other person in the relationship, whereas, you know, in maybe friendships I feel like it's I don't know, maybe I'm just kind of like word-vomiting a little bit in my own relationships, but in intimate relationships it seems kind of more obvious, like, okay, we need to have the hard conversation. With friendships and maybe even professional relationships, we kind of let a lot more slide. Would you agree? And why?

07:31 - Speaker 2 Totally agree, and I think it's because of that intimate bond, as you just mentioned, in your intimate relationships it's where, hopefully, a lot of people can derive some of the deepest connections in their lives, but also it's where you're the most vulnerable because you might let your guard down more and then you're wondering is everyone gonna be okay with that? Am I gonna be accepted? Am I still gonna be loved after this argument we have? Or after I tell them that I've had this wound from before or trauma or baggage that I'm carrying around, whereas with your friendships and your collegial relationships there's a lot that you can hide behind, right, because you can kind of dip in and out of friendships if you wanted to.

08:07 - Speaker 1 And especially given the pandemic. It's very easy to do that.

08:09 - Speaker 2 Like hey guys, so sorry, you know whatever. Like there's always an excuse to be made where you haven't connected with people and you can kind of jump in, get a little dose of it, show them your best self and then like get away right. Same thing with your work relationships, Because, again, they're only seeing you in one sphere of life and a lot of times people are killing it at work, but it's really when they go home and how they are with their families and their romantic partners where, okay, the irritability is coming out, or whatever self now Kind of save that for that place Exactly.

08:40 And I think that most of us again. You just can't keep up that facade everywhere. At some point you're gonna have to let some of that out, and it tends to happen with the people that are closest to you, because you know there's that place where you can maybe let your guard down just a little bit. But then your questioning. Was that okay?

08:57 - Speaker 1 Right, yeah, yeah, that's the question. Yeah, how would you advise somebody let's say they need, they feel like they need to have a hard conversation or their needs aren't being met in an intimate relationship? Their partner, professional relationship, co-worker will say and friend, like really good friend, would you advise somebody to approach those conversations the same way, or do they need to be going about them in a different way?

09:25 - Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a great question. I think that, just in general, it's really hard sometimes to approach people authentically why? And to really express your needs. Yeah, and I think the reason is people are always questioning one whether, once they express those needs, that person is still going to care about them the same way, or if their perception of you is gonna change, like if you ask for something like, oh, they're afraid that maybe now they're gonna think I'm needy or now they're seeing a weakness of mine, right, and I think it applies actually to all your relationships, not necessarily just your intimate ones. I think it's really just about people being able to show up and say this is what I want and what I need and that it's okay to have them. And for different reasons, we learn oftentimes in earlier experiences, and especially in our childhood, whether it's okay to ask for those things.

10:14 And if you're gonna get met with we're kind of preconditioned. Yeah, exactly. And also if you're actually gonna get your needs met. So sometimes you express your needs as a child and they don't get met. So that teaches your brain something of oh well, why bother if I can't rely on anybody or just do everything myself, like that's one type of attachment style. And then another person might say well, I only get my needs met if I cry and I wind and make like a huge deal about it as a child, so then an adult.

10:41 they kind of find a different manifestation of that where it's like I need that attention, even if it's negative attention, I gotta bring the drama Right, but at some point, then they'll hear me right.

10:51 And this is coping. This is not to fault anybody for the way that maybe they approach these things. If you hear yourself in one of these examples, it's more just that early on, when we learn these things, our brain locks it in differently than when you learn something as an adult, because when you learn something as an adult, it's one event. When you learn something as a child, you're just soaking up everything about what's going on to learn how the world works, and so those lessons tend to stick a lot. They're just a lot more sticky than other lessons that you may learn as an adult.

11:22 - Speaker 1 Do you think in relationships we're coming to the table more in like a hindrance manner, things from our past that are hindering our present and therefore the future of their relationship, or do you think people more so get stuck in the future of the relationship of is this gonna last? Are they gonna still be my friend? Are we still gonna be lovers, married? All this, is it more of a past or a future kind of fear and hindrance to making relationships really bloom?

11:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really about the future. It's that future orientation that drives anxiety. So what you're talking about is that anticipatory anxiety of, okay, the worst case scenario is gonna happen, and meanwhile you're not attending to what's going on in front of you, and then sometimes at least, to a self-fulfilling prophecy, where then the relationship does dissolve, and then you use that fact as a way to reinforce any negative, at least your nap.

12:13 - Speaker 1 Like I knew this was gonna happen. I knew you were gonna leave me. I knew this was gonna be difficult.

12:17 - Speaker 2 So it's like negative manifestation. Yeah, totally. I mean yes, absolutely. And I think that the problem, I think for a lot of people of course, they don't always realize that they're doing that, but I think a lot of the focus and why this happens is because you're trying to anticipate bad things in the future, so you can be prepared.

12:36 - Speaker 1 So it comes from a survivalist place. We don't wanna be caught off guard.

12:39 - Speaker 2 Exactly so. Some of the highest performing people I've ever worked with have the most anxiety, but for a long time, in their life that's reassuring, All right we're good, but for a long time I feel like they made it work for them.

12:50 It's like, okay, I'm using that to motivate myself, but I think at some point it can go off to a different place and at that point you're having more struggles and more difficulty because you're really starting to spend so much time catastrophizing about your future that you're not even able to lay that foundation of what's going on in front of you. And I think a big problem of why that happens and then why this is such a big issue, is that we have crazy selective memory. As human beings, we basically pick up what we want to pick up in terms of what's going on and then we reinforce whatever beliefs we have. And I think what's shocking to people is that our brains are kind of miser, so we actually have an easier time making room for information that already reinforces something we already think or believe, even if it's negative, and it's harder for us to actually say, oh, this new information might mean that I have to change my preexisting ideas.

13:46 That's a much more manual shift.

13:49 - Speaker 1 It's like you have to really consciously work on it.

13:52 - Speaker 2 Exactly yeah.

13:53 - Speaker 1 So what I'm hearing is do we really struggle with just being present, being here and now in any and all relationships to make them work?

14:03 - Speaker 2 I think it's a conscious effort that we all have to make, and maybe some people have an easier time than others, but I think it's a struggle nevertheless. Just for the human brain, just the way that we're conditioned, our brains have inner monologue. It's what allowed our species to succeed and be at the top of the food chain. But that inner monologue is constantly going in different places. Right, it's like imagination and creativity. That's where it all comes from. But at the same time, your mind wanders a lot. So it's very hard just to say oh, this is what's happening right now and I should be putting my full attention to it.

14:36 Yeah.

14:38 - Speaker 1 What do you think is the difference between a need and a wound as it relates to our relationships?

14:46 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so I think a need is something that I really believe is fundamental. It's things that we have to have, and sometimes they have a survivalist. Like our non-negotiables yeah, almost like a non-negotiable, although some people they deny their own needs or they say it's not important, and then they don't feel right, they're off center and it's because they're denying that this is actually a need for them.

15:11 - Speaker 1 And then it probably kind of comes up in a not so pleasant way down the road.

15:15 - Speaker 2 Exactly.

15:15 - Speaker 1 You realize, no, that was a need, not a want.

15:17 - Speaker 2 Right, right, and I think we kind of talk ourselves sometimes out of our needs. But there's needs that are fundamental and probably universal to all of us. We all need food to survive, we need shelter, we need some form of socialization that is just like basic human understanding as a social species. And then I think needs can then vary among individuals. There's some higher level needs of like okay, I need this type of independence, even when I'm in a romantic relationship, but that's a need for me, that's not a want For me to feel successful in this relationship and feel bonded. I need my alone time. That is a need for me. So those can vary among individuals. But wounds wounds are things that happens in the past. Right, most of the times they're things that have happened in the past, but it's almost like they haven't fully healed. And then different triggers, it's almost like picking at the wound, so then like it reopens.

16:09 - Speaker 1 Right. I thought I was over that, I thought I had healed from that. I thought I found the person that would never bring this back up. But here I am.

16:17 - Speaker 2 Exactly. And here I am and, like, sometimes you think, as you were mentioning, like we're all good, but sometimes the situation happens and that's when you realize, oh wow, it was still here, it never healed. And actually the connection between wound and need, which was again such a great question because there actually is a connection which is that a lot of times your unhealed wounds come from denying your needs. So if you don't resolve or don't cop to the fact that this is a need for me, no matter what it looks like, no matter if people think that this looks selfish or like whatever I think people might think of my needs, if I deny myself that, that could essentially be a trigger for a wound that wasn't healed, because you may have certain needs that developed out of bad experiences.

17:00 - Speaker 1 You're like well, now I know this is my boundary, but then you? Then you don't hold it.

17:03 - Speaker 2 You don't ask for it and it causes problems.

17:06 - Speaker 1 Let's say the person listening is kind of in that boat. We're realizing now, maybe as you're describing it, that this thing that is an issue in a relationship that I have is not really an issue with this relationship. It's something that I'm realizing is kind of a wound that wasn't quite done healing and I still need to work on it. Can we work on the wounds of past relationships while still actively being in a current one?

17:32 - Speaker 2 You can, and I think it does take a lot of compassion for yourself, because you're going to get triggered and you're going to do things that you wish you didn't do to this person, who was relatively innocent, and they're like what happened?

17:43 - Speaker 1 Why did you just love you man? I'm just trying to be a friend. Exactly what's going on over?

17:48 - Speaker 2 here. So you have to have some compassion for yourself, that there's going to be missteps you might overreact. That's like another great way just to know that maybe this is an old wound, that you overreact to a situation like, okay, it's a stressful situation, but like, did you have to yell about it or did you have to get that angry? You?

18:06 - Speaker 1 know. Okay, I want to ask you right there. Overreaction are usually in the eye of the person receiving it. They're the wrong end of you know that receiving stick. How can we fairly assess and overreaction and be honest with ourselves or hear that feedback and try to reverse engineer it back to the root problem here?

18:27 - Speaker 2 Yeah, it can be hard because obviously our first instinct probably is to defend and to self-defend and the self-justification process for humans is huge, like there's always a way to explain all your behaviors.

18:38 - Speaker 1 We can justify everything, especially in a relationship, exactly.

18:41 - Speaker 2 Exactly, but if you slow down and you listen to the other person and you really participate in what I call active listening, this is like a very well known therapeutic strategy that is actually a great relational tool for everyone. Essentially, it's just listening without judgment or trying to think about what you're going to say next.

18:57 - Speaker 1 We all kind of do that though, like when we're talking to someone like oh, I know I'm going to say, especially as a podcaster, right, I'm going to say this, I'm going to ask this question.

19:04 - Speaker 2 But if you listen just without any expectation or any thinking of what I'm going to say next, then you really hear the person for their message, like it's just to listen, to understand and trusting yourself that like the next thing that you're going to say is going to come from an authentic mindful place. It's very hard to practice. I try to practice it every day and I still have days where I'm like, well, that was definitely not an active listening.

19:28 - Speaker 1 So you know, we all have to try to think, to listen actively that I didn't hear anything that they said.

19:32 - Speaker 2 Exactly, yeah. So we, I think we all, we all have to practice it. But if you can listen from an active listening place and it kind of takes off the defenses, and then of course if you care about the person in front of you, then hopefully you can try to put yourself in their shoes. Like wow, if, if somebody did that to me or said that to me, you know how would I truly feel about that.

19:51 - Speaker 1 Like would I really be okay, would I really think that was an overreaction or what.

19:54 - Speaker 2 I actually think that that was a little bit overblown. And then I guess from there you have to really think and say what was I thinking in my mind just before I did this supposed overreaction? Maybe you still don't agree with it, but you're like, fine, I'll self-reflect, this hurt the other person, even if I think it was fine. So let me just try to think, take myself back, rewind the tape and ask myself what was I thinking just before this activity, this action happened? And what you'll notice is that most of the times there's an interpretation of something that caused any action, but sometimes we don't recognize that the thing is very rarely ever the thing.

20:30 - Speaker 1 Exactly it's everything, leading right up to the environment. What you were saying, what you were thinking, how you were feeling so true, so true.

20:37 - Speaker 2 I mean, it feels kind of like the game of telephone where you know it's the same sentence, but like three different people will hear three different ways and react in three different ways, and so it is important just to like check that and say, well, what, what was, what was I? What was I thinking right before that? And then I think, if you start to do that regularly, you'll start to notice a pattern to your thinking and then you'll notice, oh wow, anytime that anyone like seems to question my ability to X like this is when I have these overreactions or anytime anyone insinuates that I don't have any independence, that I'm always rely on other people.

21:14 - Speaker 1 That's when I really get upset.

21:16 - Speaker 2 It's like, well, okay, then that's where the overreaction, that's the root.

21:20 - Speaker 1 And you know, overall this episode with Judy is helping us understand what is going on internally as far as our personal histories, our emotions and, to her point, there's a lot that goes on internally that, until we find unique ways to measure, to address, we're probably just walking around unaware. I know I was, until I dove in and got a really unique internal snapshot by getting some very in-depth labs drawn. A couple years ago I got connected with Bloke's today sponsor and I really dove in and got their complete hormone panel. It's incredible because for really less than $100, you can analyze 44 key biomarkers. They're going to measure things that impact your energy mood, even sex drive, because really, at the end of the day, it all comes down to our hormones and the complete hormone lab panel provides a comprehensive examination of 44 key markers. You're going to get insights into why you may be functioning at a lower level than normal and, more importantly, where to go from there. It's so easy, so convenient. Depending on your city, they can actually schedule a phlebotomist to come out to you to draw the labs. I've done it a few times at home. It's so convenient, it's so easy. Literally in a matter of minutes they are in, they are out and then just a few days to a week or two later, I'm going over all my results with their healthcare professional, understanding where my strength and endurance was at in terms of total testosterone, free testosterone, looking at cortisol levels, helping me manage my stress. And really importantly for me is I've diabetic in my family, so I'm really curious about monitoring my glucose, my A1C. But it's way more than just what you're going to get at your doctor's office and, in my opinion, a very valuable experience for less than $100. And in fact you can save even more money when you use code chase at blokesco. That's B, l, o, k, e, s dot co. And a checkout. Use code chase C, h, a, s, e and you're going to save 10% off of any lab panel. But you can get started with their complete hormone panel for less than $100. Blokes is for the guys and the ladies. If you're listening, you can check it out. They have you covered as well. You can head to joy. That's choosejoyco C, h, o, o, s, e, j, o, I dot co. Code chase at either joy or blokes is going to get you squared away with that 10% discount on any labs.

23:37 I want to talk about that, but first I want to say one thing to kind of wrap up this last little section, one thing that's really helped me in these circumstances, beyond just really trying to be more present in, you know, conversation with my wife whether it's a fun conversation or a tough one, friends, colleagues, whatever is I have tried to get myself to, to cue myself to go what if they're right? When I'm hearing something that I that immediately puts my guard up, I know I'm proud, or I have a past tendency to kind of overreact, or it is just anything other than oh my God, yes, absolutely, I agree. I try to just go what if they're right? What if they're right? And I think that really does help me drop into be more present. It definitely helps me to separate a little bit more from overreaction, from egotistical response, and it really I think it's a great practice for anybody to get in the habit of what you would, you agree.

24:30 - Speaker 2 I love that practice. It's this idea of like. I mean. In so many ways it's almost like devil's advocate with your own mind, exactly Because your first reaction right it's like no, they're wrong. But what if they're?

24:41 - Speaker 1 right.

24:41 - Speaker 2 And what would that mean? You know, I think that's a great follow up for all of us, and it's hard, right. It's hard to kind of ditch your ego in the moment. So, like, how have you dealt with that? I think that that's a huge, that's probably a huge question a lot of people have about just like, how do you ditch your ego to even get to really reflect on that question?

24:57 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I think a great go to is just whenever you are not in 100% agreement with whatever the other person is saying, is just entertain the idea of what, if they're right, and that will. That will change everything. That will change how you, how your body language, that will change how you are present, change how you absorb, retain how you respond everything.

25:19 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you're so right to about just your body language, like gear it up to argue back versus like oh. If they're right, like oh, I guess I can be more relaxed, because it's not like I have to argue anything, and how much how many of our arguments and the intensity is probably just fueled by poor body language or non receptive body language.

25:38 - Speaker 1 That probably just adds fuel to the fire.

25:40 - Speaker 2 Oh, totally those like para language cues where you think that you're not saying anything with your body language but you're saying you are everything, or just even like the way that your eyes are diverting from the person, like you're, and then that person, if they have a wound, it's like that's triggering them, like not being listened to. But you're like I literally didn't open my mouth and then, and still, you're not recognizing you still played a role.

26:04 But yeah, interpersonal dynamics are so tricky or so complex and it's so important. I love that tip. I think that's so great. I'm going to definitely teach that to my clients because take it, that's amazing and I think it's just. It just lessens the, like you said, the intensity of whatever you were going to go at them with, if you're like you're wrong Like you know that energy is different from what if they're right? You're not saying they're right for sure. Right, you're just saying what if it works for me at least.

26:33 - Speaker 1 I love it. Take it, run with it.

26:34 - Speaker 2 Very good, thank you.

26:36 - Speaker 1 You brought up something when we were done. Talking about that point, about how you were bringing up, you us a lot and it reminds me this concept that I actually picked up from my wife. She's a great lot. A lot of our friends and people go to her for relationship advice. She's one of the most non judgmental and objective people I've ever met and she has this kind of harsh truth for a lot of people to hear. That I've heard from her as well sometimes, and it's you know, you're the common denominator.

27:06 A lot of us in relationships, intimate, collegiate, professional friends we come to people for advice. I'm sure you get this a lot and you begin to notice a pattern. It's like they never do this, they never do that, and it doesn't matter who they are, it's always the same thing. Yeah, but when she goes, you're the common denominator. How does that land with you? How can we maybe begin to understand that maybe a lot of the issues, the friction, our needs not being met, the wounds not being healed, is on us?

27:36 - Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I love that saying and I love that question or the statement, rather, because it's not really about blaming you. It's not like you're the common denominator, like it's not fault, right, that's not it's more just. You're the common denominator, so that allows you the room to self reflect on how you can change, and it also then encourages change because it instills that belief that you can do something like if you're the common denominator. That also means that if you change something, you can change the equation.

28:06 - Speaker 1 You're complaining about this problem. The problem never gets solved. Here's a potential solution to the problem right.

28:13 - Speaker 2 I love that because I think oftentimes and you know, sometimes Totally understandable why this would happen like you do blame other people for things that have happened and sometimes, yeah, like you know what it was kind of their fault. Sometimes, they suck. But when we get into that cycle of others blaming, Then it takes the onus off of us to change something right. So what your wife says, which I love, it puts the onus back on you, not in a way of blame.

28:41 But, more of a place of action like okay, if you're the common denominator, then change the equation. How might you change the equation? What are the things that you can do to make this better for you?

28:51 - Speaker 1 Well, Dr Judy agrees with her. There's no living with her now.

28:54 - Speaker 2 I know, I know, which is like put that clip together and just send a straight to her phone.

28:59 - Speaker 1 So I got a couple questions from my audience that I want to ask. I thought this would be a really unique experience, so I'm just gonna read this straight up no names, everybody.

29:07 - Speaker 2 Anonymous.

29:08 - Speaker 1 Yeah so this actually comes from someone who is a health and fitness coach and she says that I see this a lot with my clients and own relationship history. I'm not slash, they're not the one doing the sabotaging, but how do you recognize when it's time to lean in to support your partner who seems to be trying to self-sabotage? Your relationship versus knowing when to walk away.

29:32 - Speaker 2 Wow, that's so hard because I know that for so many people out there, and certainly your listeners, they're probably pretty empathetic, attuned people. That's why they're subscribed to your podcast.

29:42 I believe so so I think that there's always that feeling of wanting to help others and Having that empathy, but at some point, if the person is insistent on not helping themselves, it's different if they're saying I'm trying to help myself, but I keep making these mistakes, please, please, work with me, and you see that they're really trying number one and that they're improving. But at some point the walk away and that line is really, you know, are we just in the same cycle over and over again and there's really no moving forward? I mean like moving forward two steps and then maybe every once while taking one step back.

30:17 - Speaker 1 That's that's normal.

30:19 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I feel like sometimes people are like, oh, I should just give up. It's like, well, you know, like that's what I see in my clients all the time. They're making this progress and they come back like whoops, I blew something up.

30:28 It's like alright, but then they learn from it and then we keep going right. I think that if you find yourself kind of having groundhog day, though, where it's like we're visiting the same issues over and over again, Like always having to reassure them even though you've already reassured them plenty of times, sometimes people will set up tests again. It's not always conscious.

30:47 - Speaker 1 What would that mean from their?

30:48 - Speaker 2 wounds, maybe like test to to make sure that you still care about them. So sometimes they might, you know, on purpose, flirt with somebody in front of you Just to see if you have a reaction, or maybe they'll pick a fight just so that you do something grand to get them back. To get them back, you know to, to get yourself back in their good graces.

31:05 - Speaker 1 Would that still be kind of in the family of self-sabotage?

31:08 - Speaker 2 I think so, because it's more like I, even though you've told me you love me and we've had these conversations, I'm still setting up.

31:15 - Speaker 1 I still gotta check it.

31:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I still have to check it and make sure that you're still here, even though obviously you're still here, right?

31:21 - Speaker 1 So that's not a them thing, that's us thing, that goes back to the common denominator?

31:24 - Speaker 2 Maybe yeah exactly, and I think that self-sabotage and how that is self-sabotage is you know, of course then this relationship is probably headed to a bad place, whether it's just a bad relationship that you stay in or you leave, and then the person who set up these tests now they can say, ah, ha see, I knew you were gonna leave you, you didn't really love me, knew it, knew it just took time to show You're real, you know, and that's, and that's what's so hard about just our brains again playing these tricks on us, where we just selectively pick at the memories. That just reinforces these terrible ideas that we have.

31:55 - Speaker 1 You know, that kind of comes back to like just, I think human nature right, and this may be where I want to tap into your neuro psychologists. You know expertise is, aren't we all just day to day in a relationship or out of Relationship? We're just looking for the easiest path. We're looking for closed loops, or our brain is trying to close loops. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel here, we're trying to just go oh, if then, if then, if then. So what is going on? Maybe if you can talk to us about the brain, like if there's a here's a better way to ask this question what benefit does better understanding how our brain operates? What benefit does that have our relationships?

32:34 - Speaker 2 Well, I think it gives you a huge window for forgiving yourself for your mistakes and not beating yourself up for past experiences that you might have had or Even dictating the future you could have.

32:47 I mean I think a lot of times, if you don't understand, really, how your brain works, you don't realize that, oh, these missteps are universal, it's not just me.

32:54 You know that I would sometimes self-sabotage, or that I would sometimes set up Test for my loved ones, or that I would overreact and get my loved one to really, you know, have a hard time dealing with me. We, we all do it to some degree, and it all goes back to a sense of survival. You know, when you have that attachment relationship with your core caregiver, it was about survival then, and it's always about survival to some degree, because you know we need to be able to survive and thrive. But in common day, I mean, we're not running from saber-toothed tigers anymore things that really are linked to our survival. It's actually emotional and psychological survival, but they have the same effect on our brains and on our bodies. And so, again, just knowing that and knowing that, oh, you know what I did this? As a form of self-protection, like it wasn't to be mean to somebody or it wasn't that, like I really can't move forward it was a lot of grace in there, yeah exactly yeah.

33:44 So I think if people can give themselves that understanding and grace and you know, then that would help a lot, just understanding that all of our brains work that way and it's all based in and rooted in like a need to protect ourselves.

33:58 - Speaker 1 Hey guys, quick break from my conversation with Judy to bring your attention to something that might be another sensitive area for you and your partner. Should you decide you want to grow your family, it might not just be that easy. Getting a snapshot of our fertility health is just as important as all the other preparations we make for expanding our household. So, guys, let me bring your attention to Legacy, today's sponsor, and their standard semen analysis. They're going to help you understand your fertility with a comprehensive semen analysis that tests all key metrics of sperm health. It's just like a fertility clinic, but even better because it's from the comfort of your own home. It's super easy, super simple I have done it and just a few short steps. You're going to know exactly where you stand. You're going to get a comprehensive analysis and even the option to store it. So if you have a healthy sample now and either you're not ready to start or you want to just have that kind of insurance down the road, they can store it for you for years.

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35:51 Okay, this isn't a scapegoat, but you know I've always found power and the more I can understand the human experience and kind of separate how I'm choosing to live my life compared to how life just kind of happens. This human experience, what is going on physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and then really choosing to take my power back in each of those, it's not an escape goat.

36:18 - Speaker 2 Just better understanding, Right, and also knowing that you can tackle like one at a time. You don't have to fix everything at once, right, and that's really good too, because sometimes people just get overwhelmed by thinking well now, this whole thing is a mess and I can't recover. It's like you just need to take the first step. One more question from the audience here Cool.

36:35 - Speaker 1 How do I get my friend who keeps chasing guys who don't like her to see the light?

36:41 - Speaker 2 That's a good one. This reminds me of, of course, I feel like everyone's had that experience, either yourself or a friend, but this reminds me of that whole the book in the movie that he's just not that into you.

36:53 - Speaker 1 But you keep again the self-justification of like oh, you gotta become undilusional first, right, I know?

37:01 - Speaker 2 Well, it's just like. Well, like, maybe they're just wounded and I can rescue them and you know sometimes it's right. And sometimes it's coming from a good place, like one, you really like fixing people and two, it gives you higher self-esteem.

37:12 Like if you were to fix them, you'd feel amazing about yourself. But usually you can't fix them and then you feel bad about yourself. So I think that it's important just to ask this friend you know what do you really value? You know what do you really value just both in yourself and also in a quality relationship? I feel like people get really caught up in chasing or like this goal of I'm going to fix this person, that they don't even check their own values.

37:36 - Speaker 1 It's more like the thrill of the hunt, thrill of the seek, the thrill of the fix.

37:40 - Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. But really, when you think about what is a quality relationship to me, would it involve this? Would it involve, you know, having a nice date with somebody and then not hearing from? Them for three weeks.

37:52 - Speaker 1 No, the answer here objectively is no people yeah right.

37:55 - Speaker 2 So I always ask people like the miracle question. The miracle question is like when you're faced with a problem, like let's say, you woke up this morning, this next morning, and everything was magically fixed, what would your life actually look like and actually paint a really vivid picture? And if you ask somebody that question, if you ask this friend that question, I doubt that the picture they would paint is I woke up and I was still being ignored half the time and he was still not calling me back.

38:17 - Speaker 1 I was just chasing him down. Chasing him down, leaving messages and texts and DMs and all the things, and like they're going to get back to me for sure.

38:22 - Speaker 2 Exactly. And then it's about then creating that cognitive dissonance of like, here's what you say you value and you want and here's what the reality is Like. How does that sit with you? And it sounds like a silly question to ask, but really like, instead of answering the question for your friend, you should make them answer it, because if you answer it for them, you're in that defense mode again. Well, you don't know him right. But if you ask them well, now that you see this dichotomy, what do you think about it? It puts them in the driver's seat again. They're the common denominator.

38:49 - Speaker 1 I love that. I love that. Yeah, one more here. Okay, how do you engage in radical acceptance in a partner who definitely isn't going to change?

39:00 - Speaker 2 Wow, that's hard, man, they're not making it easy for you.

39:03 - Speaker 1 I know right, these are amazing questions.

39:05 - Speaker 2 You have some great listeners. You know what I feel like. Of course we have to check again. Is this a need and this is a deal breaker in the relationship. If they're not changing on something that's fundamentally just not okay with you, then that's a different conversation. But if we're talking about two human beings coming together and like we'd love to change people, but you know what, sometimes they're not going to come, as you are.

39:27 - Speaker 1 Why do we love to change people?

39:30 - Speaker 2 I think it's because we're looking for confirmation, because oftentimes we want to change them to something that feels more consistent with ourselves. Maybe certain parts of our own personality, maybe we don't like something that they're showing that feels like a weakness to you. It's all about your self perception. So if you can change them, then you can live in that validation space right, like, oh, my ideas were right in the first place, but it's just incredible. I mean, we have so much diversity in the human condition and it's just impossible to just find somebody who's just a hundred percent like you. And honestly, I don't really want somebody to be like a carbon copy of me. So I think, if it's not like a deal breaker and you're just saying, man, this thing that this person does really annoys me and I've told them that annoys me, but they're still like that and it's just driving me up the wall, but it's not a deal breaker I think the radical acceptance is to really think about what you truly cherish about them.

40:22 - Speaker 1 So it's taking a different turn and it sounds like knowing your limits. Yeah, knowing your limits. Knowing your limits, is it just an annoyance or a determining factor as to how long you can keep this up?

40:32 - Speaker 2 Exactly. If it's not something where it's a deal breaker, then it's really about okay, let's switch gears and like, let's talk about what I actually appreciate about this person. Like, what are some things that I'm I really value in this person? Because I think that it's easy for us to just try to pick at the faults and then it becomes a bigger thing and then it's a stubbornness of like why won't you change, but just see how your relationship transforms. If every day, you just did this experiment with yourself for seven days where you just like slip in something that you really appreciate about the person, you actually acknowledge them for it.

41:05 - Speaker 1 Oh, fantastic, yeah, that's a great exercise.

41:07 - Speaker 2 Yeah, and then it's so crazy because, like, you're not telling them that you're doing that. You're just going to do it for a week and see how the dynamic changes.

41:14 - Speaker 1 It's like this thing really drives me nuts Immediately. Think of this thing that makes me love them even more Like. I love this quality about them, so kind of just run that parallel.

41:23 - Speaker 2 Exactly, yeah, radical acceptance sometimes is about what I call like act as if. It's a dialectical behavior therapy term Basically just means like. Act as if. Like fill in the blank, like if you're having a really down day, it's like act as if I wasn't, acted as if I was excited about today, what would I do next? So it's almost that same idea applied to relationship, where like act as if this annoyance is really not what's on my mind and really it's about. Oh my gosh, I'm so appreciative of you for doing this thing.

41:48 - Speaker 1 What would I then act like?

41:50 - Speaker 2 if I really was wanting to appreciate you.

41:52 - Speaker 1 What a great little mindset shift right there, I love that.

41:54 - Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a quick one, yeah.

41:55 - Speaker 1 I want to ask you one more question before I get to my final question. Okay, and I think it's one that I think is so important, and maybe, before even anyone takes any of what we've talked about in your advice thus far, maybe start here first. I believe this is probably the most important foundation to healthy relationships, and that's the one with our self Self love. Can we truly love and commit to another person if we can't first fully, radically commit to and love ourself?

42:29 - Speaker 2 It's such a great fundamental question because it's something that I really tackle in the book about you know, your attachment, bonds, all of this past wounds and traumas. Potentially, at the end of the day, it's about your relationship with yourself and how you think about yourself and how you care and nurture for yourself. And there's lots of people who don't have self love in our own relationships.

42:49 - Speaker 1 Obviously because I think a lot of people, a lot of people, a lot of people.

42:52 - Speaker 2 So I think it's really about acknowledging that perhaps for you even if it is a work in progress that every day you have to know that that self love has to come from you ultimately and not what your partner does for you. Sometimes people get into relationships and they think, okay, well, they're going to fix me and like such a strong relationship, Like they're going to fix all my wounds, and it's not fair to put that on one other person.

43:18 - Speaker 1 Self love does not come from anyone else other than yourself.

43:21 - Speaker 2 Right, it's accepting yourself. It's actually having that acceptance of everything that you are, all your mistakes, all your positive and you're not so positive qualities, and knowing that you have value just like anyone else.

43:33 - Speaker 1 Well, this has been so educational, so helpful, so much fun. I would love to get you back in the future because I have so many more questions, my audience have more questions, so where can everybody go before we wrap up to catch more about your book, your work and everything?

43:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so I'm on all the social media platforms and my handle is at Dr Judy Ho and you can learn more about all my work there. I have lots of free resources, I do lots of giveaways and you can learn more about my book and my work at Dr Judy Hocom.

44:04 - Speaker 1 Perfect, all link down on the show notes, video notes for you guys. So this conversation has been geared to help us move forward in our relationship with ourselves and relationship with others, but to move ever forward. When you hear those words, what does that mean to you, judy? To live a life ever forward.

44:18 - Speaker 2 Well, I love that theme, I love the title of your podcast and I love just all the guests that you've had on, because they all embody that in some way in their own expertise.

44:27 For me, I think it really means to be a lifelong learner. It's like just never resting on your laurels and like we're here to learn and absorb and get information, and I just I just really think that that is the most important thing is that you're just not ever staying stagnant in one place and there's always something else that you can learn, even in your own area of expertise. But for me, I love exploring all kinds of hobbies, no matter how bad I am at them. Okay, like I tried crochet.

44:57 It was the worst. I mean I really over committed. I went to Michael's.

45:02 - Speaker 1 I bought like 50 spools of yarn.

45:04 - Speaker 2 I mean, like I really over committed and I watch, I don't know, maybe 10 or 15 YouTube videos, even watch one for left handers, because I'm the left handed, I was like well, maybe that's why I'm not a good crochet. I like any, do you? No, I'm just not good at it, but I over commit. I have all this yarn, so, like I don't know, hit me up.

45:18 - Speaker 1 You guys want some yard, you guys crochet out there.

45:21 - Speaker 2 I mean, it's just sitting like collecting dust in a box somewhere in my house, but I love exploring different new things and so I try to keep learning, even if it's not in my field and just you know, finding other new ways for meaningfulness and for joy.

45:33 - Speaker 1 I love that answer. There's never a right or wrong answer and I my kind of takeaway there is that I think that's an area where a lot of us myself included we kind of get stuck, but we don't think we're stuck because we think, oh, I really I'm zoning in on this area, I'm making this area my life better. I'm, you know, working out more.

45:50 I'm having better conversations with myself, my partner, my whatever. Insert momentum here, but then we don't fully recognize we're leaving out a lot of other quadrants of our life, and so being stagnant doesn't mean not continually, continuously excelling in an area of your choice. It means being stagnant by ignoring all the other areas of curiosity, creativity, practicing things that you're not good at. I mean there's stagnancy in all areas, just not because we're not looking at it.

46:19 - Speaker 2 Yeah, no, it's so true and, like you said, sometimes people zone in on one area and in some ways it can actually become a form of avoidance coping where they're avoiding issues in the other parts of their life. So I love that. I love that reflection.

46:31 - Speaker 1 Well, judy, thank you so much for being here Again. Everything's been linked down to the show notes and video notes for you guys. This has been so much fun, and one of my favorite things to talk about is relationships, so thank you.

46:42 - Speaker 2 Oh, thank you.