"The gut has more influence over your cravings, your mood, whether you’re hungry or not, what actions you’re going to take, than you would ever imagine."

Dr. Amy Shah

Dr. Amy Shah, author of “I’m So Effing Hungry”, explains the science behind cravings, the gut-brain connection, and the mind-blowing concept of psychobiotics (how your gut microbiome changes your mental state). 

Amy believes we’re missing the connection between the brain, the immune system, and the gut microbiome. New science is showing how influential the gut really is in controlling all aspects of our health and vitality. From motivation to cravings and even your personality, your gut impacts it all. 

Dr. Amy Shah is a double board certified doctor and author who shares useful tips for resetting your gut biome and getting your hormones back on track. Amy is the author of I’m So Effing Tired as well as her new, upcoming book, I’m So Effing Hungry: Why We Crave, What We Crave – And What to Do About It.

Follow Dr. Amy Shah @fastingmd

Follow Chase on Instagram @chase_chewning

Follow him on Twitter @chasechewning

Key Highlights

  • Should you focus more on gut health than other areas of health? Amy talks about why we should prioritize gut health, the powerful connection between the gut and brain, and how diet changes affect your gut health.

  • Hunger and cravings are totally separate, but they do have one connection… the gut microbiome! Listen in to learn more about the craving-hunger connection.

  • If you’re struggling with cravings, hunger, or gaining excessive weight, one of the best things you can do is improve your gut health and diversify your gut bacteria.

  • Did you know your gut bacteria make dopamine? In fact, 50% of our dopamine is made in the gut and gut bacteria make dopamine that’s 10-100x stronger than our own dopamine. Amy details this further as she explains the food-mood connection and how dopamine works in the body and mind.

  • Chase and Amy address the importance of strong relationships and socialization, along with the role of cravings and vices, in mental and emotional health and longevity. 

  • When writing I’m So Effing Hungry, Amy was shocked by research studies on schizophrenia and depression that showed the power of psychobiotics - how the gut microbiome changes your mental state. Tune in to hear her candid thoughts about the studies!

Powerful Quotes by Dr. Amy Shah

The gut has more influence over your cravings, your mood, whether you’re hungry or not, what actions you’re going to take, than you would ever imagine.

The more diverse your gut bacteria is, the more army soldiers there are down there, the better your fullness signals become.

In the embryo, they start as one clump of cells, the gut and the brain. And then, they start to separate as you grow and they stay connected with the vagus nerve.

Recommended Resources:

Ever Forward Radio is sponsored by...


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Our 100% Grass Fed Beef Sticks are unlike anything else on the market. In fact, they were recently voted in Paleo Magazine as one of the top snacks of the year.

Our beef comes from 100% grass fed cows raised entirely on natural grass pastures by family farmers right here in the USA. As a result they are healthy and happy.

CLICK HERE to save 15% with code EVERFORWARD


73% of people know nothing about their own fertility. Are you one of them?

Sperm is half of the equation when it comes to having kids. But average sperm counts have dropped by over 50% in recent decades, and today, half of all infertility cases involve the male partner. Sperm testing gives you the tools you need to understand and optimize your fertility. Legacy lets you do it all from home.

Save 20% on the "For Today" at-home male fertility test kit with my sponsor using the code EVERFORWARD

EFR 686: New Science Behind Cravings and the Gut-Brain Connection, How Dopamine Works, and the Mind-Blowing World of Psychobiotics with Dr. Amy Shah

Dr. Amy Shah, author of “I’m So Effing Hungry”, explains the science behind cravings, the gut-brain connection, and the mind-blowing concept of psychobiotics (how your gut microbiome changes your mental state). 

Amy believes we’re missing the connection between the brain, the immune system, and the gut microbiome. New science is showing how influential the gut really is in controlling all aspects of our health and vitality. From motivation to cravings and even your personality, your gut impacts it all. 

Dr. Amy Shah is a double board certified doctor and author who shares useful tips for resetting your gut biome and getting your hormones back on track. Amy is the author of I’m So Effing Tired as well as her new, upcoming book, I’m So Effing Hungry: Why We Crave, What We Crave – And What to Do About It.

Follow Dr. Amy Shah @fastingmd

Follow Chase on Instagram @chase_chewning

Follow him on Twitter @chasechewning

Key Highlights

  • Should you focus more on gut health than other areas of health? Amy talks about why we should prioritize gut health, the powerful connection between the gut and brain, and how diet changes affect your gut health.

  • Hunger and cravings are totally separate, but they do have one connection… the gut microbiome! Listen in to learn more about the craving-hunger connection.

  • If you’re struggling with cravings, hunger, or gaining excessive weight, one of the best things you can do is improve your gut health and diversify your gut bacteria.

  • Did you know your gut bacteria make dopamine? In fact, 50% of our dopamine is made in the gut and gut bacteria make dopamine that’s 10-100x stronger than our own dopamine. Amy details this further as she explains the food-mood connection and how dopamine works in the body and mind.

  • Chase and Amy address the importance of strong relationships and socialization, along with the role of cravings and vices, in mental and emotional health and longevity. 

  • When writing I’m So Effing Hungry, Amy was shocked by research studies on schizophrenia and depression that showed the power of psychobiotics - how the gut microbiome changes your mental state. Tune in to hear her candid thoughts about the studies!

Powerful Quotes by Dr. Amy Shah

The gut has more influence over your cravings, your mood, whether you’re hungry or not, what actions you’re going to take, than you would ever imagine.

The more diverse your gut bacteria is, the more army soldiers there are down there, the better your fullness signals become.

In the embryo, they start as one clump of cells, the gut and the brain. And then, they start to separate as you grow and they stay connected with the vagus nerve.

Recommended Resources:

Ever Forward Radio is sponsored by...


Paleovalley 100% Grass Fed Beef Sticks are the only beef sticks in the USA made from 100% grass fed/grass finished beef and organic spices that are naturally fermented.

Our 100% Grass Fed Beef Sticks are unlike anything else on the market. In fact, they were recently voted in Paleo Magazine as one of the top snacks of the year.

Our beef comes from 100% grass fed cows raised entirely on natural grass pastures by family farmers right here in the USA. As a result they are healthy and happy.

CLICK HERE to save 15% with code EVERFORWARD


73% of people know nothing about their own fertility. Are you one of them?

Sperm is half of the equation when it comes to having kids. But average sperm counts have dropped by over 50% in recent decades, and today, half of all infertility cases involve the male partner. Sperm testing gives you the tools you need to understand and optimize your fertility. Legacy lets you do it all from home.

Save 20% on the "For Today" at-home male fertility test kit with my sponsor using the code EVERFORWARD


Speaker 1:All right. Welcome back. 

Speaker 2:Ah, thanks so much for having me. 

Speaker 1:What have you been up to the last couple years? Wow. Two years almost. Exactly. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Two years. I've been writing a new book. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. Keep me on with the, uh, I'm so effing brand, which I love. <laugh>. 

Speaker 2:[00:01:00] It just so happened, um, and I was saying to you before we started this that I felt like a newborn in this wellness world because, you know, coming from an MD traditional background, I did all the traditional training to the wellness world. Mm-hmm. Was like a shock. Like I said, like I was, felt like a newborn into this world. Um, and now I feel like a toddler. 

Speaker 1:<laugh> got your legs welcome already. There 

Speaker 2:You go. I'm ready to walk. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a really interesting way to kick things off. [00:01:30] And, um, I wanna highlight the new book and the new work, um, for sure. But when I encounter MDs or traditional primary care providers who transition, we'll say into more of, of what, what I used to do in clinic, working with primary care providers in this integrative model of fitness, nutrition, wellness plus traditional allopathic care. What, why, what, what was the thing that brought you over to kind of go more of that route? 

Speaker 2:I was a nutrition [00:02:00] undergraduate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, student. So I always was obsessed with nutrition and metabolism and how it affects our body and disease. And I didn't know what to do with it when I was done. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there weren't a lot of options, uh, for other 

Speaker 1:Than like, maybe an rd. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like you could be a dietician, right? Yeah. Um, you could work for a hospital and I just wasn't really sure that that was what I really wanted to do. I really wanted to work on the human body and how [00:02:30] nutrition affects our body. And so I went to medical school and I still felt like, wow, I don't feel like this is the, you know, going the way I want. 

Speaker 1:So probably thinking that was the right or the right course. Right. Right. You wanna work on the human body. Let me become a human body expert. 

Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then I did internal medicine, which is kind of like the adult medicine, um, because there's a lot of metabolism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's a lot of mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I still felt like it wasn't using my nutrition knowledge. And so when [00:03:00] I was in medical school, I did, um, we did rotation and the one rotation that really kind of hit the nail on the head for me was we sat in, in an immunology lecture and they said, okay, at the turn of century in London, um, things changed for people <laugh>. And I'm like, oh, really? They're like, people started to get autoimmune diseases and people started to get sicker mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, they didn't know why. And it turns out that it was [00:03:30] the rich families moving into London out of the farms and changing the way they eat, changing the way they live, and becoming, you know, cleaner, more sophisticated. And they started to get sick. Hmm. And the kids started to get diseases like asthma, um, food allergies, reg, you know, autoimmune issues all 

Speaker 1:While seemingly leveling up their class. Exactly. And becoming high society people. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. And that [00:04:00] to me was like, oh, I, that's what I felt like inside. That's, that was my hunch that there was something better about the farm life, about the old heights. Ah, yeah. Right. Yeah. So literally 

Speaker 1:Getting your hands dirty every day. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like literally being around other people, other animals, other families being with nature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then they came out with a huge hypothesis that became the prevailing hypothesis in 1989. It was the hygiene hypothesis, which is [00:04:30] your body, your immune system, your GI tract needs to see mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, other microbes, other animals, other nature. I, uh, you know, to learn mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you don't give it that, then things backfire. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> things go awry. And to me, you know, I am an Indian immigrant and my first five years of life was like very rural in that sense. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I just felt like that was it. That's, I think that's what's going [00:05:00] wrong. That's what I thought in my mind. 

Speaker 1:Kind of brought you back to home a little bit. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, it's the food, it's changing the food. It's the way we eat outta wrappers and, um, you don't see the sun, you don't interact with as many people. And so that's what, um, I really thought that was my thing. So I decided to do immunology, but little did I know that immunology, even today, even in 2023 and definitely 10 years ago mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, is a research based mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's still nothing you can [00:05:30] really do mm-hmm. <affirmative> to boost the immune system no matter what ad tells you. You know, ads tell you, oh, take this, take that, take this. Really, um, the interventions are natural, you know? Mm. Get sleep, get sunlight, get, eat a good diet. 

Speaker 1:Crazy. Yeah. Would've thought, yeah. 

Speaker 2:<laugh>. And then, so it kind of brought me back to, okay, well it was a combined, um, fellowship. It's called, um, allergy and immunology. So most of my patients that I was seeing was not for immune system or microbiome stuff, [00:06:00] it was for allergies. And I kept seeing so many allergies, like food allergies and environmental allergies just made me think like, we need to start doing, we need to talk about this more. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we need to look at the research. And that's when the microbiome research was just like starting to explode. And that's what really brought me into this world because I started to feel like it was something I needed to talk about mm-hmm. <affirmative> and educate people about like, Hey, at first it was just, Hey, go back to [00:06:30] nature, you know, get some more nature time, eat some the right foods. That's why I became the, you know, on social media, like the fasting expert, because out of all the things I was saying, people were like, wait, what are you talking about? This fasting thing? 

Speaker 1:Yeah. That's your handle, right? It is Ds, yeah. 

Speaker 2:<laugh>. And it was about, because everything I said about diet, nature, you know, whatever people are like, but what, what's this circadian fasting thing that you're saying? And it was just basically that thousands of years ago, people didn't eat at [00:07:00] midnight, there's no Uber Eats. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's no microwaves. People didn't stay up all night. Um, mostly it was sun up to sundown. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And even, like I said, even my first few years of life, it was very traditional. We basically ate, um, our last meal mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then you didn't really have much after that. And so I just thought, wow, that makes sense with the circadian, the time-restricted eating studies. That makes sense. Evolutionarily, [00:07:30] we were built to kind of go into repair and renewal mode mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the evening. So why are we talking about fasting in a way where we eat late into the night, but then, um, we don't eat halfway through the day. 

Speaker 2:I thought that was kind of backwards in my mind. So I started to talk about a different way of, um, intermittent fasting. And so that became kind of my thing. And I talked about this, um, on social media recently. I thought of this book idea, this the one that I just wrote [00:08:00] years ago. And I wrote the whole proposal af I don't know chase if you've ever written a proposal, but it's like a beast, especially if you've never done it before. I have one. Yeah. And I presented it to all the best, um, places I knew, and they all said no. They were like, really? This is not, first of all, I had no audience really. Okay. You know, and, um, that was probably the major thing. And then secondly, they said, this is like, you know, oh, nature, sunlight, you [00:08:30] know what you're 

Speaker 1:Like, there's no nothing new here. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, what's the magic Yeah. Thing? What's the secret? What's the, you know? And I realized like, oh, I see. Like it's, they wanted it to be like packaged in the right way. Some 

Speaker 1:Novelty. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And so, not to say it was, you know, it was very devastating at the time mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I just bought to going back to practice, and then when I got the opportunity to write my first book, I kept thinking in the back of my mind, I'm like, I wanna like revisit this mind, gut [00:09:00] immune, um, thing. And cuz I always tell patients like, don't, don't miss the big picture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the brain immune gut picture because we always talk about mental health or we talk about, oh, your digestion, oh, this, it's all separate, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But like, we're really missing that connection between the three big areas that we really neglect, like the power of the brain. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the power of the immune system, the power of the gut. I mean, the gut [00:09:30] has more influence over your cravings, your mood, um, whether you're hungry or not, what actions you're gonna take. Then you would ever imagine it's, it's stronger than the brain. Like people think that they're feeling a certain way cuz of their brain. No. It's like, because of those microbes. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. I have this, this theory, personal theory, but, um, has been definitely kind of supported, been supported by a lot of what you're talking about. And the more that I talk to experts like yourself and my [00:10:00] own personal research, and it's that I, I really do think the gut is the driving force of our entire being Yeah. Separate from, you know, consciousness, you know, maybe, you know, the, the soul, you know, kind of that innate aspect. Yeah. But you know, we do typically believe the brain is what's driving the ship. Right. And we know we have a very strong connection between the brain and the gut. The vagus nerve. Yep. We can track all of these neurotransmitters and chemicals and things that are happening signaling back and [00:10:30] forth. Yeah. But when we look at now, I think a lot of the new sciences showing, you know, years ago, uh, when I was kind of getting into this used to be like, oh, 50% of your immune system is in the gut. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. 50% of, of dopamine serotonin now it's like 60, 70. Yeah. Like, hold on, if all of this new research is showing either an increasing level or we're just learning that this increased level was already there, doesn't that kind of tip the scales a little bit? Yeah. So if the, the stomach, the gut really is driving the ship more and [00:11:00] is maybe even influencing brain, the brain, uh, in terms of neurotransmitters and also then how that actually controls the rest of our nervous system. Shouldn't we then be focusing more on gut health first? Yeah. If we wanna start, what's the best place to start to have the most amount of influence, especially when it comes to cravings and nutrition and like the quality of things we're putting in to feed all of that. Shouldn't we be going here? 

Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, and the thing is, is that food [00:11:30] is the biggest needle mover when it comes to gut health. And so it becomes like, wow, we are in charge now again, because I think it in the other model mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's almost like you're kind of, 

Speaker 1:You're dealt these cards. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like you crave what you crave mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, you are who you are, you know, you can't really change much. But in this new model, if you think about it, that gut bacteria turnover, you know, every 15 minutes and then in three days you can [00:12:00] have a market changed. Microbiome really puts a power back into you. Wow. Um, 

Speaker 1:So as little as three days, if we consciously just we're, we're conscious of what we're putting into our bodies, we could really flip the script on a lot of these cravings and just, you know, sensations and the kind of person that we think we are, especially when it comes to our wellness. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. So what they did is, there was a landmark, landmark study in 2014. They took people and they rapidly [00:12:30] changed their diet and, um, they were like, how, let's see, how long does it take, um, to start to change this microbiome? And they saw that within three days things looked so different. Wow. It was almost unrecognizable from three days ago. 

Speaker 1:What, what does radical mean? Can you kind of dissect that a little 

Speaker 2:Bit? So the radical change that they wanted to really see, they took a ultra highly ultra processed diet. 

Speaker 1:Okay. So people [00:13:00] maybe who are on kind of the standard American diet. 

Speaker 2:Standard American, okay. Standard diet. Yeah. Soda burgers, drive throughs, french fries, you know, the whole thing. And 

Speaker 1:Then they, nobody listening to this show <laugh> every once in a while, every once in a 

Speaker 2:While, <laugh>. And then just to show the contrast, they changed their diet mm-hmm. <affirmative> so drastically into a whole foods plant focused diet. Wow. Okay. I believe it was plant-based, if not, if I'm, uh, not mistaken or at least it was plant focused. Um, and they [00:13:30] wanted to see kind of, let's see how fast it can change if it changes. And it was so shocking to see when they sequenced the microbiome that it was that fast because over, you know, of course after three days, four days, five days. So what these bacteria start to do for you is that they start to create their own cravings, their own hunger hormones mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> their own satiation. So 

Speaker 1:So you no longer have control over us. Yes. We're gonna let you know what we need in one. 

Speaker 2:So basically [00:14:00] it's like, you know how they say, um, take the action and then the motivation follows. Motivation follows action. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in this case, that's what they saw. They saw these people just took action, started to change their diet. Yeah. And as they start to change, the new microbes started to create chemicals to have more of that food. So if you've noticed, like, wow. If you go on a weekend kind of [00:14:30] binge, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you go all out, you're drinking, you're eating, and it's really hard on Monday or Tuesday, especially if it's been three or four days mm-hmm. <affirmative>, 

Speaker 1:There's no motivation. <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Monday hits. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. And you feel like it's, especially if it's been three to four days mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's really hard to then switch back to a healthy diet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I thought about the study and I thought that's like every weekend for a lot. It's like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 

Speaker 1:Even for the, [00:15:00] uh, health conscious person. Yes. Most people, it's if I can get Monday through Friday, right? Yes. Then the weekends are my downtime, which serves a purpose, I think, for people on different places in their wellness journey, of course. But it's just like really <laugh>. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Because I don't know if you've ever done this, but it was, it's been a while since I did this, but I did it this past weekend, um, because I was at end of my fitness, like, you know, goals mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I did like a photo thing and I, you know, finished. Um, [00:15:30] and so I thought, oh, you know what, I'm gonna take Friday, Saturday, Sunday off, like I haven't done in years. And I ate and I did things. We, uh, went to a, uh, I was off for a girls weekend in Vegas. Mm-hmm. It was like a perfect timing. But I came back on Monday <laugh>, and I was the lowest of the low <laugh>. I mean, my mood, my motivation, and my desire for, I didn't have any desire for healthy foods. Like I wanted that sugar again. [00:16:00] Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I wanted the processed food 

Speaker 1:Again. Well, think about it. If this study was showing how radical towards the healthier spectrum in three days, we could go Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah. It's that quick just to go the opposite way. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. And then it just made sense to me why this, you know, feeling of low, you know, like your dopamine levels or 

Speaker 1:Low Amy, I'm sorry, one second. Let me pause. Having some light issues here real quick. Oh, 

Speaker 3:Picture second. 

Speaker 1:Oh, is that [00:16:30] a battery 

Speaker 3:Guy's not supposed to the 

Speaker 2:Oh, it went out 

Speaker 1:Running out. Yeah, we were picking up right off at, uh, dopamine. Yeah. Okay. New pack didn't work. 

Speaker 3:No. 

Speaker 1:Ah, nice. [00:17:00] The bulb blow, 

Speaker 2:Faulty light. It 

Speaker 3:Might somebody [00:17:30] the light. I feel like using that one, but 

Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good diffuser. 

Speaker 3:That one works too. 

Speaker 1:Just a moment, ladies and gentlemen. 

Speaker 2:<laugh> <laugh>. Oh yeah. Take some 

Speaker 1:Time. Need water break. 

Speaker 2:I feel like that's the only, um, downside of traveling is like, I feel like I really get [00:18:00] behind on my water. I don't know if you ever do, 

Speaker 1:Even when I remember to bring my like, uh, water bottle kind of thing, um, then I'm, I have to remember to find like a Phil station or something. I know. Um, but I 

Speaker 2:Don't know. It was like, I got to the airport and it was like right when we were boarding and then they didn't serve any water on the, um, because it was, um, turbulence, 

Speaker 1:No water on the flight. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:And then, so I, you know, you can't take it through security. I didn't have time to fill it [00:18:30] then it's like there was 

Speaker 1:No water for a bottle of water 

Speaker 2:And I could, like, I didn't have time. And then, um, the flight and then I got here and I was like, rushing. So it was, um, I was thinking, I'm like, I really feel like every time I travel I kind of start to get behind on the 

Speaker 1:Water. It's probably one of the things that we all slip on the most. Uh, totally. Cause you just don't have access to it or, yeah, I think, yeah. Cool. Um, yeah, I'm with you. I, I will say speaking of, I was recently in, um, the San Fran airport [00:19:00] and they had their most beautiful water station out. They had all like, it was like a huge island and they had multiple dispensaries, faucets of, uh, just great purified, filtered water, cold water, and hot water too. Wow. Um, and I'm the guy I bring, like I've got kind of my own like healthy coffees that I like to bring. Yeah. And I'll make it at myself at the, the airport. Um, sometimes I can like sweet talk the person to like, you know, gimme a free cup of hot water. Yeah. Sometimes they'll literally charge me like $3 Wow. Just to get the hot water. Oh, 

Speaker 2:[00:19:30] Really? Oh, yeah. Just to make 

Speaker 1:Your stuff. They're like, we have to charge you for the cup <laugh>. Actually, quick little tangent. They're like, if you want, we can give you a free, like ice water. And I go, okay, can I get a free cold water? But can you heat it up <laugh>? She just turned around and left. That is how you have to charge me for hot water. But if you heat up my cold water, you can't. I know. That was weird. Um, it's a, it's very strange. I'm like, I'm sorry you didn't make this policy <laugh>. Uh, but I'm just, 

Speaker 2:I don't very That seems seems silly. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm like, even, but now they're like, they'll, [00:20:00] so now I'll bring my own mug or thermos or something, uh, and they don't charge 

Speaker 2:Me. But then, oh, 

Speaker 1:You're then $3 for a hot water. It's ridiculous. 

Speaker 2:Seems crazy. 

Speaker 1:Well, all good, Oscar. Okay. Um, so, uh, pick up dopamine. Dopamine. Yeah. Yeah, 

Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I could tell my mood was so low, my motivation was low and I kept craving the unhealthy stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like, um, just like you said, as fast as it changes to a good place, [00:20:30] it can change to a bad place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it just made me realize, like, I don't think people really realize the food mood connection and the food craving hunger connection. So we know intuitively eating healthy is good for us, but I don't think I realize that it's so good that in the immediate setting mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, your mood is gonna be boosted. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you are not going to crave as much. You are going to feel like your hunger is more controlled. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then I read [00:21:00] the research and it was so mind boggling, like, bacteria in your body make hunger hormone or like satiation hormones. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So they make these peptides that look to the body just like a, um, like that you're satisfied mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it looks like neuro peptide yy or it looks like, um, c CCK closest to Kinine. And so basically it acts in the brain so you feel full because of the gut bacteria sending signals [00:21:30] to the brain. Interesting. And same thing, they can block that and make you hungrier. So that's why sometimes if you think about your sugar cravings Yeah. It really could be coming from the bacteria in your gut really craving that sugar, 

Speaker 1:Which explains why I, maybe I'm alone. It's not always, when I get those cravings, it's not always that I'm actually hungry. No hunger. Hunger. There's no cravings, hunger going on. 

Speaker 2:<laugh> hunger and cravings totally separate, are totally separate. They're in different parts of the brain. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm. And they work completely differently. So there are overlaps, right. Because when, um, you are hungry and you don't eat, uh, the craving centers mm-hmm. <affirmative> do get activated as well. So anyone who's been on a diet knows mm-hmm. <affirmative> that both their hunger and their cravings will be very high. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when they're on a diet, 

Speaker 1:It's like we test our bodies for what we wanna put them through for maybe a, a weight goal or something. Yes. Um, but then the body is like, okay, I got you. I'm gonna test you as well. [00:22:30] Yes. You're gonna restrict the total energy coming in calories, I'm gonna challenge you more and activate these cravings. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. And the crazy thing is that, um, we've now found that with obesity with certain diseases, the, um, hunger signalings altered. Hmm. And so they're getting hungrier and they're getting less full because the leptin is, uh, your body's not as sensitive to leptin and the go ghrelin is higher. And it's really, 

Speaker 1:It's like leptin is the hormone to [00:23:00] kind of signal, Hey, we're good. We're full. Ghrelin is the like, Hey, I'm hungry. 

Speaker 2:Time to eat. Right. So basically, not only are you fighting against, you know, the the conventional food system mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the biases against, um, overweightness, you know, obesity. You're also fighting against your hunger hormones mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's like, it's so multi-layered mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and we have to understand that, you know, obesity can't just be treated with one, you know, calorie restricted [00:23:30] diet, for example mm-hmm. <affirmative> because the hormones are altered. And so that's why that GLP one agonist, um, ozempic, I'm sure you've heard of it, uh, this weight loss drug, the way it works is it activates the satiation hormone GLP one, and so you will feel full mm-hmm. <affirmative> even if you've eaten a, a little amount. And what people don't really realize is that you can activate GLP one on your own too. How with certain [00:24:00] foods. Interesting. And same with, um, so neuropeptide, yy, uh, leptin, all of these things are, uh, we can modulate them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now, one of the best ways to modulate them is through our gut bacteria. Because our gut bacteria actually, the more diverse your gut bacteria is, the more kind of army soldiers there are down there, the better your fullness signals become. And so, one of the easiest ways, if you [00:24:30] are someone who's struggling, you know, with cravings and with hunger or with excessive kind of weight, then one of the best things you can do instead of going on these diets which don't work, 

Speaker 1:Um, not long term really. 

Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean exactly. They don't work. Right, right. Yeah. As a permanent solution. Right. Um, is to work on your gut health and make your gut bacteria more diverse. So then it starts to help you with your hunger and cravings. And I think that model is not something [00:25:00] we've ever heard of or used, but that's really the way the science is showing us that we can help these people. So like GLP one, um, agonist injections instead of that, or if you're trying to wean off of that, maybe you start to diversify your microbiome. And so you get some help from your own GLP one, your own C cck, your own neuropeptide, yy, and all of a sudden you're able to control those cravings and hunger. And so I think [00:25:30] there's so much potential to learning that brain gut connection mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and you are saying about the brain and the gut, how everybody always talks about the brain as the kind of central command center. So what I want to tell everyone and tell you is like in the embryo, they start as one clump of cells. Yeah. 

Speaker 1:The gut in the brain. Yeah. This is fascinating for everybody. Yeah. <laugh>. And then 

Speaker 2:They start to separate Yeah. As you, um, grow and they're stay connected [00:26:00] mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the vagus nerve, and there's a whole an enteric nervous system, a whole nervous system that connects them. And so it makes sense that they communicate so well. Yeah. Because they have lots, now we know at least four to five different, 

Speaker 1:I'm sorry, Amy bringing all the bugs today to experience. Sorry. Uh, 

Speaker 2:All good. 

Speaker 3:Do this today. 

Speaker 1:There we go. Yeah. I need to change, swap it out. We'll give a static image. There we go. Okay. 

Speaker 3:Done. Literally was on static [00:26:30] <laugh>. 

Speaker 1:Cool. Okay. Um, 

Speaker 2:Oh, I was saying that they're, they were connect, they're connected and they, uh, the brain and the gut communicate with each other. Yes, 

Speaker 1:Yes, yes. Um, yeah. When I learned this, I think this is one of the things that has blown my mind the most about the human body and of course really solidifies what we're talking about of the brain gut connection. It starts as the same cell when we are created, [00:27:00] when we are developing, when we are tight, teeny, tiny little microscopic beings. Yeah. That vagus nerve and that that that entire existence is our brain and what becomes our stomach and the guy, all the vagus nerve is all right there. So of course we, it's gonna be, we started as the same thing. We just kind of grew. We have a little bit of distance between us. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's why the communication is so strong between the brain and the gut. And now, so the gut bacteria, what was surprising to me, I think I learned, [00:27:30] you know, we learned that there was gut bacteria mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, living in our colon. I always knew that, but I had no idea that it was such a thick community. So our cells is just one layer of cells. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the microbiota is like a thick, multi-layered, um, wow. Protective layer of, on both sides of our gut. 

Speaker 1:And it's not just a cell. Yeah. You know, in this barrier, it's, it's [00:28:00] layers of, 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. And so what happens is when food comes through your body, um, your gut bacteria first see it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they talk to the immune system. If they need help, they call 'em in 

Speaker 1:Like, Hey, friend or fo Yeah. <laugh> 

Speaker 2:Kinda thing. Let's create a little, uh, immune response. If it's, if it's an enemy and what we call inflammation, it's really just the gut bacteria telling the immune system, Hey, this does not look normal. Let's check it out. And once the inflammation starts, they send a signal to the brain like, Hey, we're working on something [00:28:30] here. And when you're inflamed, 

Speaker 1:We'll be back with you shortly. <laugh>. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:And when you're inflamed, um, the, the brain knows, okay, I gotta slow down here cuz we're dealing with an emergency. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you've ever seen a dog who's sick, you'll see they're kind of lethargic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of down when they're sick. Because when you're inflamed, your brain knows, Hey, there's a problem down here, so let's just slow down. Let's take it easy. Let's not work on very complex tasks. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So [00:29:00] we 

Speaker 1:Live throttle metabolism. Yeah. So when brain function, cognitive function, everything. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. When you are eating a lot of inflammatory foods, you are creating lots of little inflammation signals mm-hmm. <affirmative> to the brain. And so then you wor wonder why that food is making you tired. Why you have a little bit of brain fog mm-hmm. <affirmative> while why you can't be on all four, four cylinders is because of that inflammation going on. So that gut bacteria is constantly communicating hormones [00:29:30] mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, metabolism, sending messages to the brain. It's also protecting our, um, layer of cells. And so when you take antibiotics for example, or, um, you just consistently deplete that gut mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, those layers, what you end up seeing is that toxins start to reach into our own cells. And they sometimes 

Speaker 1:They made it through all those layers. Yeah. And 

Speaker 2:Yeah, they're, because now the layers are like, you know, [00:30:00] very sparse mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, because of antibiotics or just poor diet or just you are killing your gut bacteria. Um, and they're able to get in and your body can make antibodies to it. And so then you get food allergies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you get autoimmune disease, you get, you know, your body starts to see these things as foreign gluten sensitivity, <affirmative>, you know, all these things that we talk about is autoimmunity starts to happen. And so there's this theory that as we started to deplete the microbiome in humans, [00:30:30] we started to see more of these diseases. And so basically that hygiene hypothesis that I told you has now been extended into a microbiome hypothesis saying, 

Speaker 1:Hey, that was just the surface of it. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. He like, Hey, since people are babies, they're not getting enough immune system activation. They're not getting enough bacteria seeding their gut and it's causing consequences. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as you get older, 

Speaker 1:This analogy or this picture comes to mind, um, I, I think of every [00:31:00] like, old school war movie or a medieval movie I ever saw, you know, we have, we've got the castle wall, we've got the frontline defenses outside of that, and then we've got the opposing force, the enemy. Yeah. Well, what we're talking about here is just, you know, the constant bombardment by our own choice or circumstance of just bombardment after bombardment, after bombardment of taking out that frontline defense and then all of a sudden we're at the wall, we're behind the wall. Yeah. And then this constant barrage of attack [00:31:30] inside the wall causing chronic inflammation. Yeah. Keeping everybody inside that fortress, our body unnecessarily working to just maintain some kind of remnant of order. That's what we're talking about here. Absolutely. With increased inflammation, unnecessary love that analogy. Unnecessary energy. Yeah. It's just, I, i may I always either come up with like fitness analogies or like war analogy I guess with my background, but just <laugh> 

Speaker 2:Yeah. With your, and I love, cuz it is kind of like the army kind of thing kinda 

Speaker 1:Work for us. It's just what are your frontline defenses [00:32:00] and how well are those being kept up? And then what happens if, you know, you get behind enemy lines? 

Speaker 2:Well, since we're going there, I wanna propose the alternative theory that some people have posed is that these guys aren't protecting us at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the alternative theory is that they're trying to survive, they're trying to flourish themselves. These bacteria are sending signals to your brain to hijack Yeah. You Yeah. As their host. Interesting. And that it's really all about them. Hmm. And you [00:32:30] are just a vessel, um, for their survival. Oh. 

Speaker 1:Um, I think, was it, I, I think Dr. Chris Palmer, I think he brought this up or somebody recently Yeah. Proposed this, this other theory of the whole human experiences actually were just like puppets of these little microbes basically. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Like a bacterial experience that we're just like the vessel. And then, and when I thought about it that way, I thought like, oh, it's like how people think like cockroaches will win the world or something. It's like that. Yeah. You know, like these microbes, [00:33:00] they have the ability to change so fast <laugh> Yeah. And adapt to their environment. Um, but you know, the problem with that theory is that we know they do so many good things for us mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we know they make us happy. They actually make dopamine mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the dopamine that they make is 10 to 100 times stronger than our own dopamine. Wow. And so we need 

Speaker 1:Them, what is our dopamine then? If they're making their own version of dopamine, [00:33:30] where do we get our dopamine 

Speaker 2:So we can get, um, 50% of our dopamine is made in our gut mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the other dopamine is made in our brain. And the dopamine that's made in our gut is not always traveling to the brain. So you can't mm-hmm. Um, so sometimes it's just dealing with, you know, uh, local issues making you feel relaxed, you know, it's mm-hmm. Uh, doing some local work, um, but it's also sending signals, uh, to increase the dopamine in the brain mm-hmm. At, but the dopamine in [00:34:00] that the bacteria make like immediately ch creates change for us. Mm. And it raises our baseline dopamine levels. Um, and it makes us more motivated or, you know, cuz dopamine is our motivation hormone. Yeah. And it makes us, um, there's serotonin, it's, there's even adrenaline like, uh, no epinephrine is made by certain bacteria. GABA are relaxing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, um, neurochemical. And so when I [00:34:30] realized that, oh, our mood, our cravings, our hunger, it's all coming from these guys. Wow. Um, it makes you think about it differently. Yeah. Right. Like, it's like, okay, well now I realize that maybe this mental health crisis that we're facing is not really just a deficiency of neurochemicals in the brain. 

Speaker 1:Shout out again, Dr. Ris Palmer. Yes. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. It's all, it's, excuse me. It's all coming from our body and our, and our intestines [00:35:00] are unhealthy and our immune system is unhealthy. And that's the, uh, big picture. One of the things you can, one of the things I find motivating is that when they do studies, they're able to see such a huge change with small measures like diet. I mean, diet is something we all can change, and sometimes people don't wanna do it for cardiovascular health mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, but if you tell 'em, Hey, do it so you can feel more motivated. I, I mean, I think that's a big stronger [00:35:30] motivator to me than doing it for, you know, a lot of people think, well, I'll just die early, not a big deal. Right. But don't you wanna be wake up every day and mm-hmm. <affirmative> look forward to your day, or be motivated or have happiness. I mean, we go through extraordinary measures to make ourselves happy. Um, and what if there was a easier way to do it? 

Speaker 1:It's kind of like, as I continue to choke on Eric, excuse me. Um, you know, I, I think so many [00:36:00] of us, especially in the health, wellness, medical profession, when we're working with a client and a patient and we want part, a big part of our job, I think we're doing our job correctly, is to help them realize and get to that motivation. Yeah. You know, go from an intrinsic to an intrinsic motivation model. Yes. And a lot of times for a lot of people, for whatever reason, we can't be adherent to the change that we feel we need or want in our life or our own reasons. But the second, maybe an outside [00:36:30] force comes in, like, don't you wanna be around longer for your kids? Yeah. Don't you want to be able to get down on the ground and pick up your grandchildren and not blow out you're back? 

Speaker 1:Don't you want all these other things that serve other people works as this extrinsic motivation? But I love kind of like, you know, taking that coupling with what you're talking about here. When we do that, unbeknownst to us, well now we know we're actually creating that positive change at the microbial level. Yeah. So it's like we can take, again, the microbes are running the ship, you know, it's like, [00:37:00] oh, we just get them to think of the external change, the feeling, the emotion they want. But by implementing these small changes internally, we're gonna help create that for them and get them there faster. 

Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So basically, um, you know, they start to help you mm-hmm. <affirmative> on your journey mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think intuitively we all know that's true. Like when, that's why once you start mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you start to get more motivated to be healthier, do the healthy things. 

Speaker 1:The second we see a little change, feel a little change. Yes. It's like, okay, I can do this more. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. [00:37:30] And the, uh, um, the other thing that I think is fascinating is that, um, you know, cravings is such a big problem in our world today, just knowing that there's something we can do about our cravings because it's not just food. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, we're craving Instagram. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're craving video games, we're craving gambling, uh, porn, alcohol, I mean, these are all the dopamine pathway mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when [00:38:00] now that we're learning, okay, well you can raise these levels of dopamine, there are things you can do, like go for a sunny walk mm-hmm. <affirmative> that actually releases dopamine in your brain that you could start to use in your toolbox as you start to change your habits. Like, I think that when you're stuck in a place where maybe you are checking your phone, you know, hundreds of times an a, an hour to get that dopamine hit, 

Speaker 1:First thing when you wake up, last thing when you go to bed Yeah. You're waiting 30 seconds to get your coffee, you know? 

Speaker 2:[00:38:30] Yeah. And maybe it's that alcohol that's gave mm-hmm. <affirmative> giving you that dopamine burst and you're trying, trying to figure out, I think for me, before I knew this research, I just thought, well, you'll just have to white knuckle through it. You know, you just, okay. You just say, okay, wanna change my habit? But, you know, and I know that doesn't work. We all 

Speaker 1:Woke up first a small group of people. Oh yeah. I think you can, you can, you can, you can, you can just grit down. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:You wake up on January 1st mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you have that list of things that you wanna change about yourself. Right. And guess [00:39:00] what happens like a month later, most of the people either quit or didn't get to those schools because it's not just about having that intention mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you have to fight those cravings when they come. And so, uh, I kind of, what I did in the book is kind of give some actionable tips. Like there's some, for example, going for a sunny walk is one of the most, the easiest non-food interventions mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can do mm-hmm. <affirmative> to start to raise your dopamine [00:39:30] levels mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because it's the exercise, the movement, the movement itself makes the gut bacteria create these things called short chain fatty acids. Mm. Um, and they're like the anti-inflammatory magic kind of superpower, um, chemicals. And so they go all over, um, they go all over the body and start to calm the inflammation. And so then, you know, people say your your best probiotic is exercise, right? Oh, yeah. And then you have sunlight, which is giving you that burst of dopamine. We are [00:40:00] sun loving animals, even if you hate the sun. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your cells love the sun. Your brain loves the sun. And there's this, um, there's this hormone called alpha ms h melanocyte stimulating hormone, which, you know, you think of in melanin mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's actually also in appetite control. Interesting. Really. And it actually helps you control your appetite and cravings for the rest of the day. 

Speaker 1:I love, so just by doing one thing, targeting a specific goal, [00:40:30] we're actually supporting so many other things that are in support of our, our wellness. I I love that. So this is why it's so important not to get locked in on I want this Yeah. And this supports that. And whatever we find in that process is the only thing to support that. Right. No, it carries over. Yeah. I mean, again, we are a system made up of systems, so, right. Like, it's so I think, uh, naive of us to assume that there's only one thing that supports one pathway in 

Speaker 2:The body. Absolutely. And it also explains [00:41:00] to me why during the pandemic we were more tired, we were more dis uh, depressed and distressed, and because we were indoors mm-hmm. <affirmative>, most of us were not seeing as much daylight as we usually do. We're not moving as much as we usually do. We're not socializing as much. And all of these things have multiple effects on your body. Not only just appetite, but it's like your mood, your mm-hmm. <affirmative>, anti-inflammatory chemicals. Like everything started [00:41:30] to change and, and we kind of saw a snapshot of what our future's gonna look like 

Speaker 1:That compounded for weeks, months. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Years. 

Speaker 1:<laugh> years is not the recipe for success 

Speaker 2:Here. Absolutely. And I think, you know, teenagers, it just breaks my heart because when I thought about the impact of what we are talking about here, and what I wrote in the book is that, you know, I'm, half my life is over and I figured these things out the hard way. <laugh>, you know, I, I [00:42:00] honestly, I mean, I don't know about you, but I figured this out the hard way. I was down, I was anxious. I was feeling like my body was outta control, my mind was outta control. I had to learn the hard way that some of these things were gonna need to change and I made the hard changes. Right. But we have a whole generation mm-hmm. <affirmative> of young people who are even more inflamed. They're eating 75% processed foods. Wow. Geez. And they are seeing [00:42:30] very little natural light. A lot of them are, you know, staying up very late 

Speaker 1:And their social interaction is this social 

Speaker 2:Interactions. Yeah. And you think about where we're going with this, and until we really bring awareness to this topic, we're just going to be going down this route. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of skyrocketing mental health disease. And so I keep telling my kids, I have two kids that are both now teenagers, and I watch them and I see their friends and I see the environment [00:43:00] they live in, and it's a different world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and 70 years ago we, we, it was a different world. And so when we were growing up, it was still kind of transitioning into this new phase. Right. So what I think is we really need to take a hard look and say, okay, we're doing a few things really wrong mm-hmm. <affirmative> for our future populations. Yeah. We need to make some changes based on this new science. Yeah. 

Speaker 1:What about kind of the, uh, more, [00:43:30] I'll say mental, emotional health side of things, more of that kind of, uh, qualitative state of being, you know, we were talking about before we hit record, um, how in, you know, your own personal science and endeavors, you've kind of realized, um, how the thought of like a lot of people, uh, I don't really drink that much, I'm just a social drinker. But then by actually tracking it sometimes, or using maybe a wearable, you kind of got that quantitative feedback of how much that actually does negatively affect the body. [00:44:00] Um, and then it kind of showed you maybe like, all right, it's not the alcohol that I'm after that, that's not really the craving, but when I say yes to a happy hour Yes. To meet up for this or that, it's the more that social aspect, which I would argue I think you can't argue, has a lot of physical benefits. But I, I think at its core, that's mental health. That's emotional health. That's like the community that we've been kind of talking about. So can you kind of, uh, expand on Yeah. Maybe why, where, how we're getting these cravings when it's even, you know, not even about a food, it's about this other mental emotional connection. 

Speaker 2:[00:44:30] Yeah. I mean, are social beings and no matter how motivated to do your work, you are, you know, I do this, I'm sure you do too. I'll say, I'm going all in on work this week. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, this is my get get things done. And soon you realize that we are social beings, we need social interaction. Albeit it could be small, it could be subtle, but we need that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, for our, for, you know, our happiness for [00:45:00] stress levels. Um, there's definite benefit to, um, social interactions. In fact, you know, new study came out that said that, um, social relationships were the largest predictor of longevity and healthy life. 

Speaker 1:Really? Oh, yeah. Well, we've seen this for a while now with, uh, the Blue zones. Yeah. And the most common thread across all Blue Zones, centenarians around the world, is they have community, they have have core 

Speaker 2:Group of people. And then this one was like the longest study, 85 years. And they [00:45:30] si said that they, um, this is, uh, the, the, uh, study by Dr. Waldinger. Mm. And it is, um, and he wrote a book about it called The Good Life. And basically they showed that having 

Speaker 1:Close Yeah. I just had Dr. Mark Schultz on the show. Yeah, yeah. His co-author. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So 

Speaker 2:Strong relationships are the, um, highest predictor. Right. So we are social beings, we need to socialize mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, unfortunately [00:46:00] in our world, socializing has some, some negative addictions and cravings 

Speaker 1:Got some vices to it. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. And I think that we talked about it, it's very difficult to break from those vice. You can be social mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you can go for walks mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can, you know, do a golf outing. You can, um, it doesn't have to be at a bar. Yeah. Um, it doesn't have to be around unhealthy things. 

Speaker 1:What I love here in LA are a lot of places like [00:46:30] this popping up. Yeah. Like social wellness clubs that don't even have alcohol. Yeah. Like mocktails or, um, one of my favorite spots here is called Remedy Place. And you go Yes. And it's like you do recovery things together. You do. Yes. Ice bath together, you do yoga together. You do. I sauna together. It's amazing. 

Speaker 2:It is. I saw, um, I was trying to go there one day, but it was closed. Um, but that's what I'm, it. I'm talking about like, maybe we figure out how to be social mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, there's nothing wrong with socializing over food. It's a beautiful [00:47:00] thousand year old tradition. 

Speaker 1:I'm always there for food. <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh> always 

Speaker 2:There and you know, but now that we're seeing the signs of alcohol, like I used to think because of the Blue Zones work because of history mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that alcohol was great. You know, it was, it's a bonding, um, thing. It is, um, known in like, you know, thousands of years ago. They used it as a way to celebrate. Yeah. And so I was also, and 

Speaker 1:Even all the blue zones, except for Yeah. Latter day Saints. Yeah. Every other blue zone Yeah. Has, [00:47:30] uh, alcohol in the community. 

Speaker 2:But then we realized with the new signs that it's, it's not that it was helping them mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like they're probably healthy despite that. 

Speaker 1:Like those, they were walking five miles, you know Right. In Sicily to get to the winery to hang out with their friends. Yeah. Right. And then a lot of other factors 

Speaker 2:And you know, there it was coupled with their social interaction mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So maybe it was a social interaction itself that was boosting 

Speaker 1:Their Yeah. All the women I think is in Japan, it was this one of the blue zones. It's they always had sake. Yeah. [00:48:00] Always had sake. Even they're always living above a hundred, but like, because they always did it together. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:And I think that part of it, so when we look at it in the very, um, the lens of humanity evolution, I think that some of these vices can be helpful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if it brings you together as a community mm-hmm. <affirmative> if it, um, if you have friends that you love mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um, and you also love to have a glass of [00:48:30] wine. I don't think that that's so bad. And it's a personal decision. Um, and you and I were talking about it, like it's, I felt like I can still be with the same amazing people without having a ton of alcohol. And I think that is up to you. But I think there you can kind of, like you said, the mind, body, spirit. Like you have to kind of balance it all. Now, there are some things that are extremely des destructive, you know, um, that a lot of these things like alcohol [00:49:00] gambling mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, addictions can really spiral out of control very quickly. But in a small tiny sense, like if you go to Vegas, um, once in a few years and you're controlled about it, I mean there's, it's not a positive thing per se mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's definitely can be, um, the other things that you're doing around it, socializing, whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's going to, um, kind of negate the negative 

Speaker 1:Things. This brings in to mind for me. Um, I'm [00:49:30] a big Jocko Willick fan and, uh, lately this, his theme, uh, of discipline equals freedom has been kind of coming back into my life. And I think it's kind of timely as well as, you know, we're talking now, it's January new year. Um, and, and this is where a lot of us are kind of, okay, I need to be more regimented. I, I want this goal, I want to reintroduce this way of living, you know, for my physical, mental, emotional, spiritual wellbeing. And at first that kind of comes across as structure, regimen, discipline, all these things. Yes. And we think we have to stay married to that forever. [00:50:00] And then if we ever come out of that, we're gonna spiral. Yeah. Um, but there's so much beauty to be had, and if we just maintain this core structure mm-hmm. <affirmative> 

Speaker 1:Of, you know, call 'em non-negotiables or very fluid rules, fluid infrastructure, if you have even just the baseline of discipline in wherever you go, Vegas Yeah. Uh, uh, you know, happy hour, any kind of social gathering, you have these agreements with yourself that provide that discipline and provide that fluid structure. You're not [00:50:30] actually as married to the thing as you think. Yeah. You actually have so much more freedom because you are getting the life that you want. Or for a lot of us, I think we're getting the life that we think we're missing out on. Yeah. Because we're gonna say no to that. Yes. To me, which I'm all for saying yes to you, but over time, that can feel isolating, especially if other people don't have the same goals or the same beliefs. Um, like for example, one thing I do, I've been doing for a while now, my alcohol consumption has dramatically dropped over the last like, two years. 

Speaker 1:Uh, but I still [00:51:00] like to be social and very social. So what I do is I bring, I bring a six pack Yeah. Of sparkling water, shout out cure nutrition, and, and it's vitamin D and C B D and Lion's main infused sparkling water. Oh, nice. So I'm the guy, I'm still showing up to this party. I got a six pack. Honestly, most people don't even look. They're like, oh. It's just, it's the, the thing that we think we're supposed to have. Yeah. They see a guy walk in, he's got a six pack. Okay, cool. What's you drinking, bro? Yeah. Yes. I'm cracking open my sparkling lions made water, <laugh>, <laugh>. And I, I'm not [00:51:30] love that. I'm socializing, I'm staying hydrated. Yeah. And thanks to like the vitamin D and the lions man, I am so much more in tune. Yeah. I, I, I, my cognition is enhanced. I, I'm focused, I'm present. I love that way more. And also I love the fact the next day I'm not hungover. Yeah. Um, but like, here's our opportunity to introduce discipline for freedom in our own lives, but also to be the examples for people. Because if we don't have to only always be the ones fighting for this change, like that's gonna make us so much more adherent. And I think, you know, our [00:52:00] community's a better place. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, I love that. I am very disciplined and I think that it comes from, um, you cut, like you have a military background mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I have an immigrant background mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that discipline has such been such a huge player in my life, and I agree that it really does give you freedom. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, it makes you, um, a better person, but I do struggle with it mm-hmm. <affirmative> because of the same thing we're saying is that, um, [00:52:30] is it too much mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, should you, is there a trade off? And I think you'd said it exactly right. As long as you're able to still socialize mm-hmm. <affirmative> in a way that you find fulfilling. And maybe that means that not hanging out with the people that are doing the negative things. I used to apologize a lot or like try to hide mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> if I didn't wanna drink that day or that. Um, and now 

Speaker 1:There's so much like self-imposed shame almost around these choices when [00:53:00] they're actually making us better. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. You know, I used to do the same thing with eating. So I've always been a healthy eater. And I think there was a lot of shame around it when I was younger. Um, because it was party, party, party party. It was drinking, it was, um, french fries, it was nachos and I would wanna partake. Um, but I didn't 

Speaker 1:Want, because we don't wanna be cut off from the community. Right, right. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But now I'm really unapologetic about it. Everybody knows like, they're like, she's not gonna eat that, or It's okay. She's not gonna have that. And I think I [00:53:30] felt like free finally. I'm like, okay, I can be myself. Yeah. It's okay if they don't like me cuz I don't eat nachos, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so be it. And if I wanna have a nacho, I don't, al also don't want them to be like, wait, I, I thought you said you don't eat those. You know? Yeah. So it's like, uh, yeah. It's like a, I definitely have changed my views over the years. I've realized, like you said, discipline gives you a structure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And even when you wanna have fun, you just give yourself some parameters and go for 

Speaker 1:It. What I love about having discipline, [00:54:00] even if you do kind of go all in gungho for a little bit, you're probably gonna learn some protocols or even just a, a couple little habits, uh, things that you can go to instead of something else that you don't have to again, stay married to that forever. Yeah. But later on, maybe that same level, that same heightened level of discipline is not where you are where you want to be. Or maybe you want to kind of just temporarily, temporarily bow out. You can always just recall on parts of it to certain. Yeah. It's like, I don't need A [00:54:30] through Z right now, I just need B and S kind of thing, you 

Speaker 2:Know? Yeah, exactly. I, I, and we're always evolving. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm always giving myself new challenges, um, new disciplinary challenges. Good, good. Yeah. And I think that for us, um, as humans, so one of the things I actually talk a lot about in the book is that we need dopa dopamine is our motivator. Okay? So we need dopamine to keep us on a path of a [00:55:00] goal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so for example, if you're trying to get better at fitness, um, you're seeing your progress, uh, it's the dopamine mm-hmm. <affirmative> that keeps you going back to the gym, keeps you, because the way dopamine works is that it's pleasure mixed with discomfort. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're feel good, but you quickly feel like you need to do it again. And 

Speaker 1:It's, that's the thing. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:It's nature's way of keeping 

Speaker 1:You. We, we only get it after certain things. 

Speaker 2:[00:55:30] Yes. And it's your way. It's nature's way of saying, keep on going Chase. Like it doesn't, fine, you got this, but now it's time to go again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now it's time to get better. 

Speaker 1:Here's the reward. But you know, it took work to get here. Yes. So if you want even more reward, you gotta go back to the work. 

Speaker 2:Yes. And it's just like a beautiful system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to keep us kind of motivated. And you, of course there are people who refine that really well. Um, there are people who do really poorly where they may over celebrate and they may get a [00:56:00] complete dopamine release mm-hmm. <affirmative> and now they're no longer motivated to go the next day. So they'll always say celebrate, but not too much. Yeah. Like tell maybe a couple of friends, but not, don't go crazy. Like, I don't know about you, but on my journey I've, you know, being a newborn in this wellness world, <laugh>, I learned that the hard way. Yeah. Because I think what happens is, um, there's this whole internet phenomenon of celebrate every moment. You know, everything is a big deal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like you should be celebrating. And I actually [00:56:30] realize that for me and make sense with dopamine that I don't, I need to pull back just like I wanna celebrate with my close people. Maybe I tell a few friends, maybe I celebrate internally mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I'm not gonna make a big party out of it. Post it all over the place, make it a big deal because I wanna be motivated to keep going. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Like this is not the end for me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like I wanna, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to do, um, unless it's the end, you don't wanna go big. 

Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. None of us want [00:57:00] to celebrate the end right now. Cuz if we admit that, then how do you bounce back after that <laugh>? Yeah. You 

Speaker 2:Know, like they say that people have a big, big lull, you know, after winning like a big award or being at the pinnacle of their career, they have kind of like this dopamine mm-hmm. <affirmative> depletion. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 1:<affirmative>, which I was sharing with you earlier. Uh, I went through this really advanced genetics testing, um, and found out, you know, again, which is amazing, the whole theme we're kind of talking about here of the mental self and the physical self, the gut [00:57:30] and the brain, the connection that we have. I used to really beat myself up a lot because I would get in these lulls, these just inexplicable bouts of depression just randomly for like a couple days. And I was trying to force myself like, chase, like, you shouldn't feel this way. Yeah. Like, you have so much to be grateful for, like just get back to it. Get back to it. Yeah. And I would like kind of be counterproductive. And then I found out that actually in celebration or any kind of like peak where I have heightened dopamine release, I hyper metabolize it. And so [00:58:00] it takes longer for me to kind of get back to that baseline of my normal dopamine just to go through a day and not be like, ugh. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. 

Speaker 1:You know? Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of power to know, know thy self even more. Um, but you know, also just in general, I think that's a great practice. You're not setting yourself up for possible failure. Yeah. Um, poorer mental health and through everything else we've been learning, you know, kind of feeding in, you know, poor physical health. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, if you think about how cravings work, so [00:58:30] the strongest craving pathways mm-hmm. Um, dopamine pathways happen with things like gambling because it's intermittent rewards. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, when you get an intermittent reward, unexpected, your dopamine release is huge. 

Speaker 1:This is literally the Vegas casino, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, 

Speaker 2:Ding. Yeah. It's, it's, it's the explosion. Yeah. And that's why something like video games or gambling, uh, are so addictive mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because that dopamine burst is huge. It keeps you coming back for more, [00:59:00] you want more of that release, you play more even. And then if you don't get it for a while and then you get it again, that one is even stronger. And so you are like reinforcing that behavior. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's the same thing, you know, with, um, some food that you love, you can, if you eat and it's not as good, you know, you say you love donuts. Okay. And, um, the donuts that you're always in the pursuit of the, the [00:59:30] most delicious donut, and some of them, which 

Speaker 1:Is of course here in la Sidecar Donuts, everybody 

Speaker 2:Knows them. Oh yeah. Sidecar <laugh>, uh, I don't know about do very much about donuts, but I know that mm-hmm. <affirmative> the name of that place. And so you might pursue a better donut, um, but you're not getting that dopamine release mm-hmm. With those then you find like the best donut even better, um, than sidecar, which will, 

Speaker 1:If you do let me know cuz I will, I will, 

Speaker 2:You'll fly there. I will be there because that's your dopamine. 

Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2:[01:00:00] True. It's an intermittent unexpected roar. You go there and you eat it and maybe not even be that good mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's keeping that, um, dopamine, 

Speaker 1:The hunt for more, the hunt 

Speaker 2:For more. And that's, that's dopamine. And so I think that if you can use it for good, it can be really helpful. So way I, uh, I actually give the directions in the book. So if you take the intermittent reward schedule Mm. Um, of dopamine, but you turn it upside down and make it for good. Mm. So what you do [01:00:30] is you intermittently reward yourself. It can't be yourself. It has to either be a popup on your phone that had been set up in advance or it's someone else giving you Okay. Um, on say like three non-consecutive random days of the week and you get a reward, um, that hey, it's Tuesday, today's your reward day. And say it's sugar that you're working on, whatever you wanna change this donut addiction that you have. Mm-hmm. [01:01:00] <affirmative>. Okay. And you give yourself, um, a delicious, healthy dessert. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's a baked, you know, uh, chocolate chip, um, you know, blondie or something. Right. And it's similar to a donut. Yeah. But it's a healthier version. 

Speaker 1:Like Nicki Lee trying to transition this, this, this addiction, this 

Speaker 2:And, and you, and basically teaches you like how there's a neuroplasticity moment where you can use that mm-hmm. <affirmative> dopamine release and you can [01:01:30] start to talk yourself into, Hey, this was so good. This was amazing. I want this again. And then you do it again on another random day. And slowly what you're doing is you're creating a neural pathway that's positive away from the craving that 

Speaker 1:Waiting until you're in that moment of like, I need it, I gotta have it kind of thing. Yes. And then maybe make the choice that you really don't want. Yes. Wow. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like, if you think about it, there's so many, it's a great things. Yeah. There's so many things I wanna do. Like I keep trying it with [01:02:00] new things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I did it with dark chocolate. Um, so meaning that instead of, uh, unhealthy dessert to have dark chocolate and really savor it and love it mm-hmm. <affirmative> intermittently, you don't want it every day. If you have it every day, it's not special. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's not building that, um, dopamine pathway. Yeah. You want it to be surprised, you want it to be special, you wanna be different. Um, and that's what creates it. 

Speaker 1:I'm always curious when someone sits down to write a book about a topic and we've covered so much here. Yeah, of course. We might have all the information down on the show notes [01:02:30] for everybody. Um, as well as, you know, the last book, I'm so effing tired. Yeah. Wherever you sat down and talked about burnout. That's so fun. Which fun was so perfect because at that moment of life I was going through, I was was just on the other side of the worst burn outta of my life. Um, when you sat down to write this, was there something that you found that was just so blatantly, oh my God, I can't believe more people don't know about this. Or this is just like, you know, the diamond in the rough kind of thing? Or, or was it more of a solidification of something that you really believed to be true when it came to [01:03:00] cravings and all of this? 

Speaker 2:I think the thing that blew my mind during writing this book was the study on schizophrenia. Okay. Hmm. So they took patients who had schizophrenia, they took their gut microbiome and they transplanted it into animals because you can't really, you know, it's not right to transplant schizophrenic or just bacteria into others. And, um, they put it into mice and then they took non schizophrenic patients and they took it, put it into other [01:03:30] mice. The researchers were able to pick out with 100% accuracy the mice that had received the schizophrenic microbiome without, I mean, they just knew it based on their behavior because Wow. The microbiome was able to completely change their personalities. Wow. The things that they did, whatever, however my schizophrenia presents, they were able to find, I mean, they saw that with a hundred percent accuracy into me. I was like, [01:04:00] okay, I knew that it was important and I knew it was 

Speaker 1:Contributing. This is like all the sci-fi nanotechnology. Yes. We've ever read about this. This is our gut microbiome. 

Speaker 2:Yes. Wow. Its changing your mental state in such a profound way. And it had nothing to do with transplanting the brain or hormones or like anything. And then they did it with depression and they did it with wow. Um, Alzheimer's and [01:04:30] autism. I mean, it's like, you think about the possibilities there. 

Speaker 1:Did it work the other way around if they took like healthy, 

Speaker 2:Super happy, healthy people? So what they did is, um, in the depressed population, they, um, did a healthy microbiome and they're able to reverse it. So there's this whole world of psycho. I know. Wow. So it's called psychobiotics. 

Speaker 1:Psychobiotics. Yeah. I mean that's a first for me in the show. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. So Psychobiotics is this idea Wow. That gut [01:05:00] microbiome can change your whole mental state. Wow. So think about depression, anxiety, autism, Alzheimer's, dep, um, schizophrenia. I mean, they've basically gone down the line mm-hmm. <affirmative> of everything they can mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, do it with, and they found that it works. The question is, wow, who, what are these bacteria? 

Speaker 1:Right? Yeah. Explain yourself <laugh>. Yeah. Like who is your leader? <laugh>. Yes. Seriously. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. Like who, how do we package this [01:05:30] mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that we can cure all of these diseases mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, because sometimes it's, you know, it's not a, uh, a hundred percent, um, change mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when you ask someone to change their diet, to change their exercise schedule, change their sleep schedule, um, and you know, yes. 

Speaker 1:That change your entire 

Speaker 2:Life, right? Yes, they can do that. But what if you were saying, we're gonna say do all that, but here's a set of bacteria that are gonna help you on [01:06:00] your journey. Like that's the future. 

Speaker 1:Wow. It makes me think about, you know, Bradley Cooper and limitless. Maybe that pill was just all the best bacteria rolled up into one <laugh>, one capsule. 

Speaker 2:You know, guess what, chase, there's a company out there in Boston that's selling the fecal matter in pills mm-hmm. <affirmative> form mm-hmm. <affirmative> of athletes, uh, um, elite athletes for people to consume. And if you think about it, 

Speaker 1:This, this the next level performance enhancing supplement scene. 

Speaker 2:Exactly. [01:06:30] Wow. Because just like you can, you know, enhance the dopamine production, the muscle production, you can enhance the testosterone production. Um, so they transplanted, um, gut bacteria from a male mouse to a female mouse, and the testosterone levels went sky high without doing anything to the testing. Just the bacteria. Just the bacteria is that crazy <laugh>. So if you think 

Speaker 1:About, and I'm gonna be nerding out. I have to go home and just like dive into books and, and I am blown right now. Isn't 

Speaker 2:That crazy? [01:07:00] So then you think about it Yeah. Like the athletic prowess that we talk about, can that be transplanted, um, from and studies show? Yes. 

Speaker 1:Wow. 

Speaker 2:I mean, I think a lot of people out there would be willing to take, um, hills from elite, uh, not just athletes, but elite leaders, people. Oh yeah, yeah. You know, like, so the quick and dirty way to do this, um, if you were like, I don't wanna swallow any fecal matter right now mm-hmm. [01:07:30] <affirmative>, like let's go 

Speaker 1:Step, just be careful when we describe fecal matter in the quick and dirty way. <laugh> Well, that's true. Let's clarify. <laugh>. We're 

Speaker 2:Going Yeah. I'm using a lot of terms here, <laugh>. So, um, what you wanna do is realize that when you share food with people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you share skin to skin contact, you are hugging them, you're hanging out with them, you are, um, interacting with them, you are sharing, um, gut bacteria mm-hmm. <affirmative> with those people. So you know that concept of like you are the, uh, product of the five people 

Speaker 1:You hang 

Speaker 2:Around five [01:08:00] you hang around with from the microbiome sense, it's kind of like a mini fecal transplant, right. Because you may be sharing food with them inadvertently mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you may be sharing bacteria with them. 

Speaker 1:Oh, the amount of bacteria, trillions of bacteria that live on, on our skin before we even get into, you know, the gut aspect. I mean, it's an external and internal exchange before we everything 

Speaker 2:See exactly. They, I mean on in twin studies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're able to see that twins separated at birth, um, close more closely resemble [01:08:30] their partners or ho home mates than they do each other when it comes to microbiome. Really? Wow. Because microbiome is that transferrable. 

Speaker 1:Wow. I mean, it makes sense. I'm kind of thinking about now, I I remember hearing, you know, years ago to me was new, uh, I think around like 2014 ish. Um, you could do this with yourself. Yeah. You know, having, uh, doing a bacteria sample stool sample Yeah. Uh, and then actually supplementing with your own Yeah. Uh, sample that [01:09:00] actually had profound benefits for most people Yeah. In cleaning up gut health. Uh, so I'm like, well, yeah. I mean, if, if that can happen of your own, uh, sample in your own body, introducing that of something else, like it makes me questions, I'm more about like how sanitary, but you know, of course I'm 

Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. It's not, it's banned by the F FDA because of the concerns. Yeah. It's communicable diseases Yeah. Viruses back to what we're dealing with. You're, you're literally, um, playing with fire. But when I think about it, most [01:09:30] people, and maybe I'm just too deep in this world, but I, I would with someone I knew was healthy, tested, you know, check, uh, healthy family member friends. I'm 

Speaker 1:Not saying no right now. Yeah. I mean, I, that's kind of a new practice in mine over the years, is not saying no to anything right away. Um, yeah. But just, you know, I mean when we look at the, the science here and just, you know, in rat, but also in hum humans with the self sample, it's worth looking into it. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:It's, I 

Speaker 1:Mean, interesting 

Speaker 2:If you get cured disease mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think there's, I have 

Speaker 1:Especially something like Alzheimer's [01:10:00] Yeah. And mental health disorders. Wow. 

Speaker 2:There is a, um, a fa this was years ago when I was starting to get into this world. I found all these Facebook groups of people who are doing fecal transplants illegally. 

Speaker 1:Like, just like grassroots. 

Speaker 2:Um, yeah. And because in the US' banned, but in many countries it's not. Um, and so there's all this new, it's kind of like when something is new burgeoning, like it's gonna take a few years mm-hmm. <affirmative> for it to become, um, mainstream. But I think it's not too far that psychobiotics become a part [01:10:30] of our culture. 

Speaker 1:Wow. Psychobiotics. Yeah. Um, alright. Well I know what we're talking about next time we have <laugh>. Yeah, I know. Um, this has been a amazing, and, and thank you so much for coming on the show. Again, thank you so much for your time and I mean, this new labor of love with the book, I'm so eing hungry. Um, and just also for being another reminder for me in my audience that the power and influence we do have over our life when we get super specific [01:11:00] and dial in or choose to dial in one goal, one path, one system, you know, brain health, gut health, lose weight, build muscle. There's immense power to be had and results to be had when we go that specific. But also not to forget the ripple effect that it's actually having. And how also we can kind of take a lot of that pressure off of just really just thinking collectively. I just want, you know, happiness. Yeah. You know, there are ways to radically influence your life through the lens of happiness, that [01:11:30] influence and create better health, longevity, um, thwart disease and illness and all this stuff's incredible. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank, first of all, thank you so much for having me back on. I feel like we had a whole different conversation 

Speaker 1:This time. I know 

Speaker 2:<laugh> Yes. And it was so enlightening, but I, I think the reason I think these conversations are good is that it's not just about losing weight. Like we didn't even talk, we didn't even touch on losing weight. Right. 

Speaker 1:Which is the tie in cravings and all that. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Like if 

Speaker 1:You, how this huge 

Speaker 2:Role in, if you control your cravings [01:12:00] and appetite, you can be in the best shape of your life. But what we really talked about is the actual purpose of all this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is how do we change our mental health? How do we stop ourselves from going down this path of disease mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's where I think this the, it's really powerful. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, well perfect segue into my final question, uh, which I I definitely asked you last time. Yeah. But I'm curious what your definition is now living a life ever forward. Those two words. How would you define that? How do you describe that 

Speaker 2:[01:12:30] Living a life ever forward? It's learning finally that you are the only one who's going to save yourself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I think when you learn that you will move forward, there is no person in the white horse coming with a platter of solutions for you. 

Speaker 1:No one's coming to save you. 

Speaker 2:Yeah. You gotta get up and, you know, once you realize that, that's when you move forward, 

Speaker 1:Um, that is, I'm [01:13:00] getting kinda like delayed goosebumps. Um, it's very funny you say that. Quick little tangent as we wrap up here. A friend of mine and actually a, a client, uh, in our, a production company, an operation podcast, um, shout out Greg Anderson, his show Endless Endeavor. His, his kind of mantra and what he's been putting out there is just that no one is coming to save you. I love that. And today, uh, he was actually just, that was referenced and shouted out on the Joe Rogan show. Wow. He had a guest on who knows Greg, and was kind of like, they were talking about that and, uh, just went live. And, um, [01:13:30] so literally today, this whole concept of no one's coming to save you has been top of mind for me. And now here we are wrapping up with that as 

Speaker 2:Well. I love that. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's, that's interesting. 

Speaker 2:That was the biggest realization for me because I think in medicine you've taught like, oh, wait for the solution to come out. Mm-hmm. You know, there's gonna be a secret, there's gonna be a, um, and then I finally learned like no mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's, it's, it's all within us. 

Speaker 1:Uh, and I will say, um, going into year five, LA Chase, I can say this now I'm tapping fully into my woo. Uh, [01:14:00] you are the medicine. Yeah. You are the medicine. Interpret that as you will. 

Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. I love 

Speaker 1:That. Uh, well, the book, I'm so effing hungry Yes. Is out now. Yes. As of this podcast is live it again, it's linked down to the show notes to everybody, and I can't wait to check it out myself. Oh, thank you. All right. Thanks. Alright. I, I got so excited that I can just like, go for more. I know. Yeah. Psychobiotics, that was blowing my mind. Crazy. 

Speaker 2:I know. It's like, I thought you knew about that because you just, you're so dialed into that world, but you gotta read that I 

Speaker 1:Missed, I apparently [01:14:30] I missed this. Um, 

Speaker 2:It's, it's gonna, I mean, think about mental health. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, as you were describing it, I was just like, oh, duh. Yeah. Yes. And then I was just reminded of all the, like, I actually almost did this, that, um, experience with the the self sample Yeah. Years ago. Yeah. Um, the company want it kind of just like fell through, but um, I mean, again, just like, duh, it makes sense, but just like hearing now that it has like a thing and a field and how it's being researched now 

Speaker 2:The problem is is that, um, [01:15:00] and the problem is is that, uh, they're not able, they've been doing all these studies like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they even took people on SSRIs, like antidepressants and they put them on probiotics, all different types of probiotics to try to figure out like what it was, which one works. Yeah. What they found is it worked really well in conjunction with the ssri, but none of the probiotics worked on their own. Interesting. They worked almost as good, but like you need to blow that thing out of the water. Yeah, yeah. For it [01:15:30] to be, so everybody of course wants to find that right concoction mm-hmm. <affirmative> because nobody really knows what it is that the right cocktail Yeah. To kind of replace these 

Speaker 1:Meds, which that was, that was an area I had in mind I didn't even get to. It was wanting to kind of go back to, you know, the concept of probiotics and prebiotics, but I was really curious when you were talking about that initial study of when these people made that radical diet change, um, mostly going plant-based. Yeah. Um, I was curious, was it because of just the heightened increase in probiotics and prebiotics and fiber [01:16:00] Yeah. And insoluble fiber and all these things that like are core fundamentals for good gut health that Yeah. I'm sure was just this wash. 

Speaker 2:Basically what I did in the book is I said, um, Hey, here, eat these five different foods or six different foods, sorry. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> every single day. And it was to mimic because the, the, the diet that they used in that study was really hard to figure. They basically, um, had them choose from a list. It was a, it's hard to interpret. Ah, okay. But, um, it's basically fiber. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, [01:16:30] real foods unprocessed. They had 'em get off of the heavy, um, processed meat and dairy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, so it was like a burgers and fries kind of Yeah. Group, like a McDonald's burgers and fries kind of group. And then they turned it into like a whole foods plant-based. Yeah. Um, so of course you're gonna see 

Speaker 1:Yeah. I love how, and it's just like, for me, I'm just like, again, no shit. But like when we're the general public, or even like the medical community specifically is trying to address a specific medical need, [01:17:00] the most common thread we see is like, oh, reduce processed foods. Yeah. Sugars go more plant-based, um, grass-fed meats if you're going that route, increase activity, sunlight, sleep. Yeah. For everything. Yeah. 

Speaker 2:Like everything. No shit <laugh>. 

Speaker 1:I know. And it's, but it's just so cool how we can get so myopic at to an intention of what we're trying to fix and change in the body, but also just like collectively, we just know that that works for everything. 

Speaker 2:It's so sad. So I just got my first colonoscopy ever, um, this week and [01:17:30] I was looking at all the GIS in my group, like in my husband's a GI mm-hmm. <affirmative> and all the gis in their group. And, and I'm like, you know, they don't follow that. I mean, I hate to say it, but like, they don't mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so why would they be able to tell anybody to change their diet mm-hmm. Or lifestyle. Right. So it's kind of has to come from, um, you know, an external source. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like if your doctor isn't able to tho I mean these are hard things mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, you know, and I know [01:18:00] we are dialed in mm-hmm. <affirmative> yet it's still hard. Yeah. So imagine if you were not even so 

Speaker 1:Knowing's even worse sometimes I wish I could you back like IG ignorance was bliss 

Speaker 2:<laugh>. Oh my god. I know. Like if I don't get a good night's sleep Yeah. I'm like obsessed with it and then I'm like, no, but it's okay. It's one night. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not a big deal. Like I'll get over, you know, 

Speaker 1:Where, and now we can see on the whoop, you know, 

Speaker 2:One glasses. It's like you get all Yeah. You get all this like feedback and, but 

Speaker 1:I love my cabernet <laugh>. I 

Speaker 2:Know. It's, it's harder than it, it's harder than it theme. So it's almost like, uh, [01:18:30] uh, I know some patients and people that just say, oh, whatever you live one you only live once or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but do you wanna live it like debilitated and depressed? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, now that I know this stuff, I'm like, I don't wanna be sad. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or unmotivated mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, you know, addicted to sugar. 

Speaker 1:Yeah. That whole aspect of like learning emotions. Yeah. And like the mental state, how of course in some instances, you know, I think there is, there is actually some biochemical misfiring situations [01:19:00] going on to address, but like how so much of that is actually like, I don't have to accept or, or it is just like a temporary kind of like thing that my body is going through. It's, it's not an issue up here as much. It is as it is like with the collective system. Yeah. And so if I can just lean into that and also like give myself the grace that like, okay, I either need to just ride this out or like, I don't need to go to the typical things of try to over motivate myself or shake my entire system. You know, it's just, I need to go back to the basics of [01:19:30] like, have I been outside today? Have like Yeah. You know, when's the last time I had a salad 

Speaker 2:<laugh>? I know. You know, it's so hard because like they always say, if you don't get the basics right, like none of this stuff mm-hmm. <affirmative> is gonna help. And it's like, I wish more people could, people ask me all the time, what is the right probiotic? What is the, um, what is the secret? You know? Uh, like Sure. Yeah. And I'm like, it you don't get these other things. Right. Like, don't even worry about that stuff. Yeah. It's like getting new shoelaces for your shoes for a marathon. Like that's not gonna do anything if you're not doing the training. Right. 

Speaker 1:Like, yeah. When you were talking [01:20:00] about walking, um, I was gonna say probably if I had to give, only give and I do give this advice a lot. One piece advice for health, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual 

Speaker 2:Walk. Yeah. Same. 

Speaker 1:It just does so much there. I forget the study. Um, I, it came out a while ago, but, um, I'm gonna butcher, I think it was like a theta state, but basically the magic mark for like exercise that 30 to 40 minute low intensity study state exercise. Um, but they found like why we think it is so therapeutic and, and [01:20:30] so conducive to increasing mood and mental health is, and it doesn't matter the weight of the person, just the gravitational force against pretty much any human body. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when you're walking for that period of time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the reverb. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you get, you know, the counterproductive gravitational force, the reverb that goes from the ground to your heel striking up, you know, to kinetic change. Yeah. Goes up to your brain, basically gets you into, I'm pretty sure it's more, it simulates more theta, but it gets you into like the brainwave activity of calm. Yeah. [01:21:00] Of like, just like, I don't need to like be hyper analyzing thinking right now. And so it's like that sweet spot for the physical self, but it's also the sweet spot for the mental self 

Speaker 2:As well. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of walking. So I was saying, saying like, I did this fitness journey for the last year and a half and like, one of the things I really changed was I loved to exercise, so I was like over, I, I would do like every class and whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my nutrition coach was basically like, you, you need to cut down all [01:21:30] this like noise, just walk and lift mm-hmm. <affirmative> and like when I just simplified it. Yeah. Yeah. I had all this extra time. Yeah. <laugh> and it was like, so much better. Yeah. I don't need to go to those group. Yeah. I can socialize in other way. Like, I go for walks, I take my phone with me. You know, it was, it was really like you said, that's amazing. That was the 

Speaker 1:Biggest change. That's like all I do, I, I lift, I walk. Yeah. Same. Yeah, I do yoga. Last year my goal was once a week. Now I'm twice a week. 

Speaker 2:Um, I'm back to once a week because I used to do it a bunch of times a week cause I was doing all these other classes too, [01:22:00] but now I'm like, I need it at least once a week. Yeah. 

Speaker 1:You heard it here first folks. Good enough for the doctor. Good enough for me!